Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data
Quoting Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com: Yeah, this could get ugly pretty fast. It's a bit unclear to me what the distinction is between identical terms in both the geographic areas and the country codes (http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/geographicAreas/e-uk-en http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/countries/enk). Well, in LC's current representation, there *is* no distinction, they're both just skos:Concepts that (by virtue of skos:exactMatch) effectively interchangeable. The distinction is MARC-based. There is a lot of redundant data in MARC that is an encoded form of something that elsewhere is expressed as text -- somewhat controlled text, but text. The geographic area code is input in the coded data area of MARC (0XX) to make up for the fact that figuring out a geographic area from LC subject headings is difficult. This is not unlike having publication dates as text in the 260 $c and again in a fixed format in the 008 field. Much of this redundant input (think of the time!) could be eliminated if we quit keying text strings but allowed the display to derive from the coded data. The existence of all of the coded data fields in MARC is proof that there is some consciousness that text is not sufficient for some of the functionality that we would like to have in our systems. Unfortunately, because the coded data is not human-friendly AND is redundant, it does not get input consistently. And because it does not get input consistently, it's hard to base any functionality on it since that functionality would apply only to a somewhat random subset of the records in the database. So... here we are. kc See also http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/geographicAreas/fa and http://id.loc.gov/authorities/sh85009230#concept. You have a single institution minting multiple URIs for what is effectively the same thing (albeit in different vocabularies), although, ironically, nothing points at any actual real world objects. VIAF doesn't do much better in this particular case (there are lots of examples where it does, mind you): http://viaf.org/viaf/142995804 (see: http://viaf.org/viaf/142995804/rdf.xml). We have all of these triangulations around the concept of England or Atlas mountains, but we can't actually refer to England or the Atlas mountains. Also, I am not somehow above this problem, either. With the linked MARC codes lists (http://purl.org/NET/marccodes/), I had to make a similar decision, I just chose to go the opposite route: define them as things, rather than concepts (http://purl.org/NET/marccodes/gacs/fa#location, http://purl.org/NET/marccodes/gacs/e-uk-en#location, http://purl.org/NET/marccodes/countries/enk#location, etc.), which presents its own set of problems (http://purl.org/NET/marccodes/gacs/h#location is not a SpatialThing no matter how liberal your definition). At some point, it's worth addressing what these things actually *are* and if, indeed, they are effectively the same thing, if it's worth preserving these redundancies, because I think they'll cause grief in the future. -Ross. -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] [dpla-discussion] Rethinking the library part of DPLA
I appreciate the spirit of this, but despair at the idea that libraries organize their services around public domain works, thus becoming early 20th century institutions. The gap between 1923 and 2011 is huge, and it makes no sense to users that a library provide services based on publication date, much less that enhanced services stop at 1923. kc Quoting Eric Hellman e...@hellman.net: The DPLA listserv is probably too impractical for most of Code4Lib, but Nate Hill (who's on this list as well) made this contribution there, which I think deserves attention from library coders here. On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Nate Hill wrote: It is awesome that the project Gutenberg stuff is out there, it is a great start. But libraries aren't using it right. There's been talk on this list about the changing role of the public library in people's lives, there's been talk about the library brand, and some talk about what 'local' might mean in this context. I'd suggest that we should find ways to make reading library ebooks feel local and connected to an immediate community. Brick and mortar library facilities are public spaces, and librarians are proud of that. We have collections of materials in there, and we host programs and events to give those materials context within the community. There's something special about watching a child find a good book, and then show it to his or her friend and talk about how awesome it is. There's also something special about watching a senior citizens book group get together and discuss a new novel every month. For some reason, libraries really struggle with treating their digital spaces the same way. I'd love to see libraries creating online conversations around ebooks in much the same way. Take a title from project Gutenberg: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Why not host that book directly on my library website so that it can be found at an intuitive URL, www.sjpl.org/the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn and then create a forum for it? The URL itself takes care of the 'local' piece; certainly my most likely visitors will be San Jose residents- especially if other libraries do this same thing. The brand remains intact, when I launch this web page that holds the book I can promote my library's identity. The interface is no problem because I can optimize the page to load well on any device and I can link to different formats of the book. Finally, and most importantly, I've created a local digital space for this book so that people can converse about it via comments, uploaded pictures, video, whatever. I really think this community conversation and context-creation around materials is a big part of what makes public libraries special. Eric Hellman President, Gluejar, Inc. http://www.gluejar.com/ Gluejar is hiring! e...@hellman.net http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/ @gluejar -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] [dpla-discussion] Rethinking the library part of DPLA
I, too, have been struggling with this aspect of the discussion. (I'm on the DPLA list as well.) There seems to be this blind spot within the leadership of the group to ignore the copyright problem and any interaction with publishers of popular materials. One of the great hopes that I have for this group, with all of the publicity it is generating, is to serve as a voice and a focal point to bring authors, publishers and librarians together to talk about a new digital ownership and sharing model. That doesn't seem to be happening. Peter On Apr 10, 2011, at 10:05, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: I appreciate the spirit of this, but despair at the idea that libraries organize their services around public domain works, thus becoming early 20th century institutions. The gap between 1923 and 2011 is huge, and it makes no sense to users that a library provide services based on publication date, much less that enhanced services stop at 1923. kc Quoting Eric Hellman e...@hellman.net: The DPLA listserv is probably too impractical for most of Code4Lib, but Nate Hill (who's on this list as well) made this contribution there, which I think deserves attention from library coders here. On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Nate Hill wrote: It is awesome that the project Gutenberg stuff is out there, it is a great start. But libraries aren't using it right. There's been talk on this list about the changing role of the public library in people's lives, there's been talk about the library brand, and some talk about what 'local' might mean in this context. I'd suggest that we should find ways to make reading library ebooks feel local and connected to an immediate community. Brick and mortar library facilities are public spaces, and librarians are proud of that. We have collections of materials in there, and we host programs and events to give those materials context within the community. There's something special about watching a child find a good book, and then show it to his or her friend and talk about how awesome it is. There's also something special about watching a senior citizens book group get together and discuss a new novel every month. For some reason, libraries really struggle with treating their digital spaces the same way. I'd love to see libraries creating online conversations around ebooks in much the same way. Take a title from project Gutenberg: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Why not host that book directly on my library website so that it can be found at an intuitive URL, www.sjpl.org/the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn and then create a forum for it? The URL itself takes care of the 'local' piece; certainly my most likely visitors will be San Jose residents- especially if other libraries do this same thing. The brand remains intact, when I launch this web page that holds the book I can promote my library's identity. The interface is no problem because I can optimize the page to load well on any device and I can link to different formats of the book. Finally, and most importantly, I've created a local digital space for this book so that people can converse about it via comments, uploaded pictures, video, whatever. I really think this community conversation and context-creation around materials is a big part of what makes public libraries special. Eric Hellman President, Gluejar, Inc. http://www.gluejar.com/ Gluejar is hiring! e...@hellman.net http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/ @gluejar -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [CODE4LIB] [dpla-discussion] Rethinking the library part of DPLA
Eric, thanks for finding enough merit in my post on the DPLA listserv to repost it here. Karen and Peter, I completely agree with your feelings- But my point in throwing this idea out there was that despite all of the copyright issues, we don't really do a great job making a simple, intuitive, branded interface for the works that *are* available - the public domain stuff. Instead we seem to be content with knowing that this content is out there, and letting vendors add it to their difficult-to-use interfaces. I guess my hope, seeing this reposted here is that someone might have a suggestion as to why I would not host public domain ebooks on my own library's site. Are there technical hurdles to consider? I feel like I see a tiny little piece of the ebook access problem that we *can* solve here, while some of the larger issues will indeed be debated in forums like the DPLA for quite a while. By solving a small problem along the way, perhaps when the giant 1923-2011 problem is resolved we'll have a clearer path as to what type of access we might provide. On 4/10/11, Peter Murray peter.mur...@lyrasis.org wrote: I, too, have been struggling with this aspect of the discussion. (I'm on the DPLA list as well.) There seems to be this blind spot within the leadership of the group to ignore the copyright problem and any interaction with publishers of popular materials. One of the great hopes that I have for this group, with all of the publicity it is generating, is to serve as a voice and a focal point to bring authors, publishers and librarians together to talk about a new digital ownership and sharing model. That doesn't seem to be happening. Peter On Apr 10, 2011, at 10:05, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: I appreciate the spirit of this, but despair at the idea that libraries organize their services around public domain works, thus becoming early 20th century institutions. The gap between 1923 and 2011 is huge, and it makes no sense to users that a library provide services based on publication date, much less that enhanced services stop at 1923. kc Quoting Eric Hellman e...@hellman.net: The DPLA listserv is probably too impractical for most of Code4Lib, but Nate Hill (who's on this list as well) made this contribution there, which I think deserves attention from library coders here. On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Nate Hill wrote: It is awesome that the project Gutenberg stuff is out there, it is a great start. But libraries aren't using it right. There's been talk on this list about the changing role of the public library in people's lives, there's been talk about the library brand, and some talk about what 'local' might mean in this context. I'd suggest that we should find ways to make reading library ebooks feel local and connected to an immediate community. Brick and mortar library facilities are public spaces, and librarians are proud of that. We have collections of materials in there, and we host programs and events to give those materials context within the community. There's something special about watching a child find a good book, and then show it to his or her friend and talk about how awesome it is. There's also something special about watching a senior citizens book group get together and discuss a new novel every month. For some reason, libraries really struggle with treating their digital spaces the same way. I'd love to see libraries creating online conversations around ebooks in much the same way. Take a title from project Gutenberg: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Why not host that book directly on my library website so that it can be found at an intuitive URL, www.sjpl.org/the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn and then create a forum for it? The URL itself takes care of the 'local' piece; certainly my most likely visitors will be San Jose residents- especially if other libraries do this same thing. The brand remains intact, when I launch this web page that holds the book I can promote my library's identity. The interface is no problem because I can optimize the page to load well on any device and I can link to different formats of the book. Finally, and most importantly, I've created a local digital space for this book so that people can converse about it via comments, uploaded pictures, video, whatever. I really think this community conversation and context-creation around materials is a big part of what makes public libraries special. Eric Hellman President, Gluejar, Inc. http://www.gluejar.com/ Gluejar is hiring! e...@hellman.net http://go-to-hellman.blogspot.com/ @gluejar -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet -- Nate Hill nathanielh...@gmail.com http://www.natehill.net
Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data
Karen Miller works at Northwestern University where an authorities librarian has been maintaining, to the dot, the authority related records (headings, subdivisions, encoding, etc.) for over 20 years. If a cataloger there makes a mistake, that will be fixed by the refined set of procedures run consistently on their bibliographic vis-a-vis authorities files. There is no other such institution catalog in the US. LC have often invited that authorities librarian to come fix their collection as well. Bill, which new evidence have you found for almost rupture or depression regarding reflection on geographic names? The fact AUTOCAT librarians started to assist our discussions is in fact grounds for rapture (pun intended) as we improve analysis, *Ya'aqov* * * * * * * *On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Bill Dueber b...@dueber.com wrote: * *2011/4/8 Karen Miller k-mill...@northwestern.edu I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious, * *That made me laugh so hard I almost ruptured something. Thank you so much for such a complete (please, god, tell me it's complete...) explanation. It's a little depressing, but at least now I now why I'm depressed :-) -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of Michigan Library * * ** *
Re: [CODE4LIB] [dpla-discussion] Rethinking the library part of DPLA
I guess that people may already be familiar with the Candide 2.0 project at NYPL http://candide.nypl.org/text/ - this sounds not dissimilar to the type of approach being suggested This document is built using Wordpress with the Digress.it plugin (http://digress.it/) Owen Owen Stephens Owen Stephens Consulting Web: http://www.ostephens.com Email: o...@ostephens.com Telephone: 0121 288 6936 On 10 Apr 2011, at 17:35, Nate Hill wrote: Eric, thanks for finding enough merit in my post on the DPLA listserv to repost it here. Karen and Peter, I completely agree with your feelings- But my point in throwing this idea out there was that despite all of the copyright issues, we don't really do a great job making a simple, intuitive, branded interface for the works that *are* available - the public domain stuff. Instead we seem to be content with knowing that this content is out there, and letting vendors add it to their difficult-to-use interfaces. I guess my hope, seeing this reposted here is that someone might have a suggestion as to why I would not host public domain ebooks on my own library's site. Are there technical hurdles to consider? I feel like I see a tiny little piece of the ebook access problem that we *can* solve here, while some of the larger issues will indeed be debated in forums like the DPLA for quite a while. By solving a small problem along the way, perhaps when the giant 1923-2011 problem is resolved we'll have a clearer path as to what type of access we might provide. On 4/10/11, Peter Murray peter.mur...@lyrasis.org wrote: I, too, have been struggling with this aspect of the discussion. (I'm on the DPLA list as well.) There seems to be this blind spot within the leadership of the group to ignore the copyright problem and any interaction with publishers of popular materials. One of the great hopes that I have for this group, with all of the publicity it is generating, is to serve as a voice and a focal point to bring authors, publishers and librarians together to talk about a new digital ownership and sharing model. That doesn't seem to be happening. Peter On Apr 10, 2011, at 10:05, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: I appreciate the spirit of this, but despair at the idea that libraries organize their services around public domain works, thus becoming early 20th century institutions. The gap between 1923 and 2011 is huge, and it makes no sense to users that a library provide services based on publication date, much less that enhanced services stop at 1923. kc Quoting Eric Hellman e...@hellman.net: The DPLA listserv is probably too impractical for most of Code4Lib, but Nate Hill (who's on this list as well) made this contribution there, which I think deserves attention from library coders here. On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Nate Hill wrote: It is awesome that the project Gutenberg stuff is out there, it is a great start. But libraries aren't using it right. There's been talk on this list about the changing role of the public library in people's lives, there's been talk about the library brand, and some talk about what 'local' might mean in this context. I'd suggest that we should find ways to make reading library ebooks feel local and connected to an immediate community. Brick and mortar library facilities are public spaces, and librarians are proud of that. We have collections of materials in there, and we host programs and events to give those materials context within the community. There's something special about watching a child find a good book, and then show it to his or her friend and talk about how awesome it is. There's also something special about watching a senior citizens book group get together and discuss a new novel every month. For some reason, libraries really struggle with treating their digital spaces the same way. I'd love to see libraries creating online conversations around ebooks in much the same way. Take a title from project Gutenberg: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Why not host that book directly on my library website so that it can be found at an intuitive URL, www.sjpl.org/the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn and then create a forum for it? The URL itself takes care of the 'local' piece; certainly my most likely visitors will be San Jose residents- especially if other libraries do this same thing. The brand remains intact, when I launch this web page that holds the book I can promote my library's identity. The interface is no problem because I can optimize the page to load well on any device and I can link to different formats of the book. Finally, and most importantly, I've created a local digital space for this book so that people can converse about it via comments, uploaded pictures, video, whatever. I really think this community conversation and context-creation around materials is a big part of what makes public libraries special.
Re: [CODE4LIB] [dpla-discussion] Rethinking the library part of DPLA
I'm familiar with it, and I love it. Love the Commentpresshttp://www.futureofthebook.org/commentpress/work as well. This project addresses participation and scholarly communication (nicely), not the interface by which you access it. If you think about the audience at a public library, it'd be amazingly valuable to have a whole bunch of kids books directly hosted on your site with an intuitive URL, library branding, a downloadbale ePub version, and a hosted version with commenting similar to what you see in the Candide 2.0 project. I think with some user testing you might find the commenting a little outside of the way a casual 15 year old reader might want to interact with it, but you never know. I think the interface part is the real kicker with all of this. If I could just fire up the iPad, navigate to a book's page at my local library and start reading it to my kid, that'd be amazing. Or if I had one of those soon to be released Google laptops running the Chrome OS, I'd be in good shape to read to my kid. Still, if I'm at home using Internet Explorer 6 on my ancient laptop, I could read to my kid. Yes, you can do much of this with the Candide 2.0 bit, but it wasn't designed to solve the cross-platform, cross-device, with-or-without connectivity issue, it was designed to probe the participatory reading issue from a decidedly academic perspective. I'm really sorry to see that the Candide 2.0 thing stopped with that one text. I'd love to see that platform used for more books, with the interfaced redesigned to appeal to a broader audience. I think it is a great starting point. On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Owen Stephens o...@ostephens.com wrote: I guess that people may already be familiar with the Candide 2.0 project at NYPL http://candide.nypl.org/text/ - this sounds not dissimilar to the type of approach being suggested This document is built using Wordpress with the Digress.it plugin ( http://digress.it/) Owen Owen Stephens Owen Stephens Consulting Web: http://www.ostephens.com Email: o...@ostephens.com Telephone: 0121 288 6936 On 10 Apr 2011, at 17:35, Nate Hill wrote: Eric, thanks for finding enough merit in my post on the DPLA listserv to repost it here. Karen and Peter, I completely agree with your feelings- But my point in throwing this idea out there was that despite all of the copyright issues, we don't really do a great job making a simple, intuitive, branded interface for the works that *are* available - the public domain stuff. Instead we seem to be content with knowing that this content is out there, and letting vendors add it to their difficult-to-use interfaces. I guess my hope, seeing this reposted here is that someone might have a suggestion as to why I would not host public domain ebooks on my own library's site. Are there technical hurdles to consider? I feel like I see a tiny little piece of the ebook access problem that we *can* solve here, while some of the larger issues will indeed be debated in forums like the DPLA for quite a while. By solving a small problem along the way, perhaps when the giant 1923-2011 problem is resolved we'll have a clearer path as to what type of access we might provide. On 4/10/11, Peter Murray peter.mur...@lyrasis.org wrote: I, too, have been struggling with this aspect of the discussion. (I'm on the DPLA list as well.) There seems to be this blind spot within the leadership of the group to ignore the copyright problem and any interaction with publishers of popular materials. One of the great hopes that I have for this group, with all of the publicity it is generating, is to serve as a voice and a focal point to bring authors, publishers and librarians together to talk about a new digital ownership and sharing model. That doesn't seem to be happening. Peter On Apr 10, 2011, at 10:05, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: I appreciate the spirit of this, but despair at the idea that libraries organize their services around public domain works, thus becoming early 20th century institutions. The gap between 1923 and 2011 is huge, and it makes no sense to users that a library provide services based on publication date, much less that enhanced services stop at 1923. kc Quoting Eric Hellman e...@hellman.net: The DPLA listserv is probably too impractical for most of Code4Lib, but Nate Hill (who's on this list as well) made this contribution there, which I think deserves attention from library coders here. On Apr 5, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Nate Hill wrote: It is awesome that the project Gutenberg stuff is out there, it is a great start. But libraries aren't using it right. There's been talk on this list about the changing role of the public library in people's lives, there's been talk about the library brand, and some talk about what 'local' might mean in this context. I'd suggest that we should find
