Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-21 Thread Kyle Banerjee
The short version of this lengthy post is that there's really no value in worrying about how to handle precoordinated strings except for purposes of busting them up. The Rube Goldberg style precoordination rules that cause so many headaches were developed to address challenges brought about by

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data [cataloging]

2011-04-18 Thread Eric Lease Morgan
On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:58 AM, Bill Dueber wrote: OK, so I've been trying to follow all of this, and have to say, I'm finding it all very interesting. I want to give a special shout-out to the cataloger who have joined in; I (and, I think, much of code4lib) need this kind of input on a much

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-18 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
On 4/17/2011 10:58 AM, Bill Dueber wrote: At the same time, I'm finding it hard to determine if we're converging on when trying to turn LCSH into reasonable facets, here's what you need to do or when trying to turn LCSH into reasonable facets, you've haven't got a freakin' prayer. Can someone

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-18 Thread Simon Spero
For FAST, see Chan and O'Neill (2010). There are large parts of FAST where the editors wisely opted to punt on the more intractable parts. Simon Chan, Lois Mai and O'Neill, Ed (2010). FAST, Faceted Application of Subject Terminology: Principles and Application. Libraries Unlimited. ISBN:

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data [cataloging]

2011-04-18 Thread Diane I. Hillmann
Oh jeez, I'm not sure I'd suggest AutoCat. Even I can't bear that. But the RDA-L list has a fair amount of discussion that still dusts off the traditional issues and tries to figure out what sill matters. Diane Hillmann On Apr 17, 2011, at 10:58 AM, Bill Dueber wrote: OK, so I've been

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-18 Thread Kelley McGrath
On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 7:40 AM, Simon Spero s...@unc.edu wrote: The main study on this subject was the Michigan study performed/led by Karen Markey (some reports were written as Karen M. Drabenstott.  The final report of the project is available at

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-17 Thread Simon Spero
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Kelley McGrath kell...@uoregon.edu wrote: It used to be that geographical subdivision was much more flexible and was supposed to convey different meanings depending on where it occurred in the string. Then there was some research showing that not only did

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-17 Thread Bill Dueber
OK, so I've been trying to follow all of this, and have to say, I'm finding it all very interesting. I want to give a special shout-out to the cataloger who have joined in; I (and, I think, much of code4lib) need this kind of input on a much more regular basis than we've been getting it. At the

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-15 Thread Kelley McGrath
A few belated ramblings from a cataloger: 1) GEOGRAPHICAL SUBDIVISION It used to be that geographical subdivision was much more flexible and was supposed to convey different meanings depending on where it occurred in the string. Then there was some research showing that not only did

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-15 Thread Ross Singer
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Kelley McGrath kell...@uoregon.edu wrote: I’m sure this is way too much info for most (or all) on this list, but in case it is helpful, I thought I’d throw it out there. I disagree. I think this was fantastic and most enlightening. Most of us deal with this

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-11 Thread Kyle Banerjee
There is a lot of redundant data in MARC that is an encoded form of something that elsewhere is expressed as text -- somewhat controlled text, but text Much of this redundant input (think of the time!) could be eliminated if we quit keying text strings but allowed the display to

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-10 Thread Karen Coyle
Quoting Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com: Yeah, this could get ugly pretty fast. It's a bit unclear to me what the distinction is between identical terms in both the geographic areas and the country codes (http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/geographicAreas/e-uk-en

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-10 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
Karen Miller works at Northwestern University where an authorities librarian has been maintaining, to the dot, the authority related records (headings, subdivisions, encoding, etc.) for over 20 years. If a cataloger there makes a mistake, that will be fixed by the refined set of procedures run

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Till Kinstler
Am 07.04.2011 17:44, schrieb Ford, Kevin: Actually, it appears to depend on whose Authority record you're looking at. The Canadians, Australians, and Israelis have it as a CorporateName (110), as do the French (210 - unimarc); LC and the Germans say it's a Geographic Name. No, the original

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Owen Stephens
Thanks for all the information and discussion. I don't think I'm familiar enough with Authority file formats to completely comprehend - but I certainly understand the issues around the question of 'place' vs 'histo-geo-poltical entity'. Some of this makes me worry about the immediate

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Ross Singer
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 5:02 AM, Owen Stephens o...@ostephens.com wrote: Then obviously I lose the context of the full heading - so I also want to look for Education--England--Finance (which I won't find on id.loc.gov as not authorised) At this point I could stop, but my feeling is that it

[CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data / Ross

2011-04-08 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
*Hi and thank you Ross, Jonathan, and Andy, I do wish someone from LC would answer Jonathan's questions for all codes and geographic subdivision or subject implications. There's so much self-inflicted pain I can go through trying to revive my cataloging days. Here are some clarifications though:

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Bill Dueber
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: But, yeah, it would be worth running your ideas by a few catalogers to see what they think. And if anyone does this...please please *please* write it up! -- Bill Dueber Library Systems Programmer University of

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Owen Stephens
Thanks Ross - I have been pushing some cataloguing folk to comment on some of this as well (and have some feedback) - but I take the point that wider consultation via autocat could be a good idea. (for some reason this makes me slightly nervous!)s In terms of whether Education--England--Finance

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Shirley Lincicum
I'm a cataloger who has been following this discussion with interest, but not necessarily understanding all of it. I'll try to add what I can regarding the rules for constructing LCSH headings. My understanding is that Education--England--Finance *is* authorized, because Education--Finance is

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Bill Dueber
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Shirley Lincicum shirley.linci...@gmail.com wrote: Ross is essentially correct. Education is an authorized subject term that can be subdivided geographically. Finance is a free-floating subdivision that is authorized for use under subject terms that conform to

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Karen Miller
-3462 -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Bill Dueber Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:40 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Shirley Lincicum shirley.linci

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-08 Thread Bill Dueber
2011/4/8 Karen Miller k-mill...@northwestern.edu I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious, That made me laugh so hard I almost ruptured something. Thank you so much for such a complete (please, god, tell me it's complete...) explanation. It's a little depressing, but at least now I now why I'm

[CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Owen Stephens
We are working on converting some MARC library records to RDF, and looking at how we handle links to LCSH (id.loc.gov) - and I'm looking for feedback on how we are proposing to do this... I'm not 100% confident about the approach, and to some extent I'm trying to work around the nature of how

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Owen Stephens
Thanks Tom - very helpful Perhaps this suggests that rather using an order we should check combinations while preserving the order of the original 650 field (I assume this should in theory be correct always - or at least done to the best of the cataloguers knowledge)? So for: 650 _0 $$a

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
*... Creating possibly invalid headings isn't necessarily a problem - as we won't get a match on id.loc.gov anyway ... *LCSH headings reflect materials cataloged by LC. You may have materials at your UK (or Albania, Tunisia, etc.) which were not cataloged yet at LC, thus nothing

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Houghton,Andrew
After having done numerous matching and mapping projects, there are some issues that you will face with your strategy, assuming I understand it correctly. Trying to match a heading starting at the left most subfield and working forward will not necessarily produce correct results when matching

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
Andrew, please see *[YZ]* below *181 __ $z England and you would NOT find this heading in LCSH. This is issue one. Unfortunately, LC does not create 181 in LCSH (actually I think there are some, but not if it’s a name), instead they create a 781 in the name authority record. * *[YZ]* MARC/LCSH

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Owen Stephens
Still digesting Andrew's response (thanks Andrew), but On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Ya'aqov Ziso yaaq...@gmail.com wrote: *Currently under id.loc.gov you will not find name authority records, but you can find them at viaf.org*. *[YZ]* viaf.org does not include geographic names. I just

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread LeVan,Ralph
@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Still digesting Andrew's response (thanks Andrew), but On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Ya'aqov Ziso yaaq...@gmail.com wrote: *Currently under id.loc.gov you will not find name authority records, but you can find them at viaf.org

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ford, Kevin
, it is in VIAF. Warmly, Kevin From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of LeVan,Ralph [le...@oclc.org] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:34 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data If you look

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
07, 2011 11:28 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Still digesting Andrew's response (thanks Andrew), but On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Ya'aqov Ziso yaaq...@gmail.com wrote: *Currently under id.loc.gov you will not find name authority

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Owen Stephens
, not England as a place. Ralph -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Owen Stephens Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:28 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Still digesting

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
Kevin, England exists as a corporate body and also as a geographic name. BOTH entities exist in LCSH. This doesn't apply to all geographic names, only to some. Andrew pointed us to VIAF, but I expect his algorithm to limit the search for LCSH. Let's wait for his reply. *Ya'aqov* *On Thu, Apr

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread LeVan,Ralph
AM To: Code for Libraries Cc: LeVan,Ralph; Houghton,Andrew Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Ralph, Owen's pointing to a list where corporate (110) and geographic names (151) are mixed. Thanks Owen, I haven't seen that the first time. I guess you got that mixed 110/151 when

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
On 4/7/2011 10:46 AM, Houghton,Andrew wrote: to go to the name authority record 150 England with LCCN n82068148. Currently under id.loc.gov you will not find name authority records, If this would change, so name authority record elements used in 6xx subject cataloging were in id.loc.gov, it

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
Jonathan, hi and thanks, 1. I believe id.loc.gov includes a list of MARC countries and a list for geographic areas (based on the geographic names in 151 fields. 2. cataloging rules instruct catalogers to use THOSE very name forms in 151 $a when a subject can be divided (limited) geographically

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Houghton,Andrew
: Ya'aqov Ziso [mailto:yaaq...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:18 To: Code for Libraries; Houghton,Andrew Cc: LeVan,Ralph Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Andrew, please see [YZ] below 181 __ $z England and you would NOT find this heading in LCSH. This is issue one

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Houghton,Andrew
@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Ya'aqov Ziso Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 11:56 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Ralph, Owen's pointing to a list where corporate (110) and geographic names (151) are mixed. Thanks Owen, I haven't seen

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ya'aqov Ziso
*Andrew, as always, most helpful news, kindest thanks! more [YZ] below:* *1. No disagreement, except that some 151 appears in the name file and some appear in the subject file:* *n82068148 008/11=a 008/14=a 151 _ _ $a England* *sh2010015057008/11=a

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Ross Singer
On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Ya'aqov Ziso yaaq...@gmail.com wrote: 1. I believe id.loc.gov includes a list of MARC countries and a list for geographic areas (based on the geographic names in 151 fields. 2. cataloging rules instruct catalogers to use THOSE very name forms in 151 $a when a

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Houghton,Andrew
[mailto:yaaq...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 13:47 To: Code for Libraries; Houghton,Andrew Cc: Hickey,Thom; LeVan,Ralph Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data Andrew, as always, most helpful news, kindest thanks! more [YZ] below: 1. No disagreement, except that some 151

Re: [CODE4LIB] LCSH and Linked Data

2011-04-07 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
On 4/7/2011 1:21 PM, Houghton,Andrew wrote: That is probably correct. England may appear as both a 110 *and* a 151 because the 110 signifies the concept for the country entity while the 151 signifies the concept for the geographic place. A subtle distinction... This starts getting into