Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
I would disagree that sysadmin/network admin types are considered less geeky, it's just that coders and sysadmins speak completely different languages, tend not to trust each other, and are generally working against one another (since they have different goals). Trying to figure this stuff out is like trying to determine whose cleric is better than whose wizard. Any coolness or status that we perceive is only among ourselves. Everyone else sees us socially as nerds and professionally as minions who to support others. Library technologists are infrastructure and like other infrastructure, they'll be ignored if they do their jobs well and reamed if they make a mistake. Who here thinks about the people who design sewers or concrete? You don't need to be able to write a line of code to help design a great program. Nor do you need to know any technology to be a hacker. Systems analysis, hacking, and coding are ways of thinking and do not refer to any specific skillset. If the community is to grow, this word needs to get out. kyle
[CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature] inline: image001.jpg
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
++1 ~Bohyun -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Salazar, Christina Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 3:35 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women? And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
+1 At least in the speculative fiction community (and I see it elsewhere), PoC (person of color) is the most in-use term for replacing the traditional use of minority. --James On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Bohyun Kim k...@fiu.edu wrote: ++1 ~Bohyun -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Salazar, Christina Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 3:35 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women? And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
Sounds possibly interesting. Other than a word, what would that be exactly, and what would be the goals of it? Do you mean a different conference, or listserv, or what? On 11/28/2012 3:34 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
If this (as in a group for women in library technology) is going to become reality, I want to see this take one step broader, and incorporate ALL women in library tech, and not just designating it to one subset of the library community (code4lib). code4lib can be a collaborator with another organization (LITA?) to reach more people. This is a broader issue than code4lib, and needs to be treated as such. Assumptions: not all library tech folks are code4libbers, not all library tech folks are not LITA members, some are both, some are neither, all have to work in the same environment. Thanks, Becky On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: Sounds possibly interesting. Other than a word, what would that be exactly, and what would be the goals of it? Do you mean a different conference, or listserv, or what? On 11/28/2012 3:34 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-**Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-** Group/ http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
Well, I guess any non-majority person, but I was thinking specifically of women ONLY because I'm a woman and I'd be willing to do something as far as coordinating. And possibly two or more non-location based chapters (i.e., one for gender, one for PoC). And I wasn't really thinking of a separate conference (though that would be cool, but no one can afford more than one conference these days, can they?) but an additional meeting at the main con AND a separate e-mail list. But I'm just throwing that out as venues that would be attractive/encouraging to me and things I know that I could do right now. Christina (Wow, I thought people would hate this concept, but me, I like it...) -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women? Sounds possibly interesting. Other than a word, what would that be exactly, and what would be the goals of it? Do you mean a different conference, or listserv, or what? On 11/28/2012 3:34 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
Sounds like it's worth a breakout session or two at #c4l13, if folks are interested in mashing ideas together in real-time. -Mike On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Salazar, Christina christina.sala...@csuci.edu wrote: Well, I guess any non-majority person, but I was thinking specifically of women ONLY because I'm a woman and I'd be willing to do something as far as coordinating. And possibly two or more non-location based chapters (i.e., one for gender, one for PoC). And I wasn't really thinking of a separate conference (though that would be cool, but no one can afford more than one conference these days, can they?) but an additional meeting at the main con AND a separate e-mail list. But I'm just throwing that out as venues that would be attractive/encouraging to me and things I know that I could do right now. Christina (Wow, I thought people would hate this concept, but me, I like it...) -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women? Sounds possibly interesting. Other than a word, what would that be exactly, and what would be the goals of it? Do you mean a different conference, or listserv, or what? On 11/28/2012 3:34 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature]
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
Hello, Super short term lurker (since today!). It was suggested by various people on Twitter (hello people of Twitter) that I join code4lib because of this exchange and it greatly touches on one of my passions (see: http://exitpursuedbyabear.net/2012/11/why-white-men-should-not-mostly-write-about-gender-disparity-in-technology/). What I was able to see via the archives on the website and here has been awesome! Which brings me to Becky's point below: As someone who is not a coder, has no plans on being a coder, and would rather shove things in her eyeballs then learn programming, Becky has a valid point about broadening the reach of women in tech. I've noticed a trend that in the library world (articles and such), when one talks about being a geek, it seems to be synonymous with coder. And those of us who are not coding, who are say network geeks or hardware geeks or somewhere else, are kind of left out in the cold. In a way, we're excluded from the culture as well. (I'm a network geek. I used to configure and manage tier 1 (backbone) routers back in the late '90s/ early '00s). BGP 4 LYFE. In the library world there is a huge dichotomy in the geekdom as this is mainly female orientated profession but the technical side is mainly male dominated. There needs to be a balance struck and that is going to be hard. But I think making an initiative like this (creating a Code4LibWomen) is a good idea, but by being far too inclusive (only available to those who are in the community of Code4Lib) is restrictive. I think it would be better served if it was pushed to a wider audience to make women in tech, who may not be on Code4Lib, find a community of like minded individuals. A suggestion I had made on my blog was that a SIG becreated at ALA or LITA or some other more broad reaching group. Another was working with the Ada Initiative as well. I think there is a lot that can be done, but it should be addressed on a much broader scale. The problem with sexism in the geek world is not new, by any stretch of the imagination, but what IS new is that more women are talking openly about it, everywhere. This is exciting. And promising. It's like 1920 all over again! _lisa/@pnkrcklibrarian -- Lisa M. Rabey, MA, MLIS Systems Web Librarian Grand Rapids Community College p: 616.234.3786 | e: lra...@grcc.edu http://grcc.edu/library | http://grcc.edu/library/socialmedia On 28/11/2012 at 16:00, Becky Yoose b.yo...@gmail.com wrote: If this (as in a group for women in library technology) is going to become reality, I want to see this take one step broader, and incorporate ALL women in library tech, and not just designating it to one subset of the library community (code4lib). code4lib can be a collaborator with another organization (LITA?) to reach more people. This is a broader issue than code4lib, and needs to be treated as such.
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
I would disagree that sysadmin/network admin types are considered less geeky, it's just that coders and sysadmins speak completely different languages, tend not to trust each other, and are generally working against one another (since they have different goals). Bess's Werewolves vs. Vampires presentation a couple years ago explained this well. But that doesn't mean that A) we don't have a lot to learn from each other B) one group gets to claim the title of geek over the other C) shouldn't all congregate under the same tent (whether that be Code4Lib or wherever). -Ross. On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:43 PM, Lisa Rabey lra...@grcc.edu wrote: Hello, Super short term lurker (since today!). It was suggested by various people on Twitter (hello people of Twitter) that I join code4lib because of this exchange and it greatly touches on one of my passions (see: http://exitpursuedbyabear.net/2012/11/why-white-men-should-not-mostly-write-about-gender-disparity-in-technology/). What I was able to see via the archives on the website and here has been awesome! Which brings me to Becky's point below: As someone who is not a coder, has no plans on being a coder, and would rather shove things in her eyeballs then learn programming, Becky has a valid point about broadening the reach of women in tech. I've noticed a trend that in the library world (articles and such), when one talks about being a geek, it seems to be synonymous with coder. And those of us who are not coding, who are say network geeks or hardware geeks or somewhere else, are kind of left out in the cold. In a way, we're excluded from the culture as well. (I'm a network geek. I used to configure and manage tier 1 (backbone) routers back in the late '90s/ early '00s). BGP 4 LYFE. In the library world there is a huge dichotomy in the geekdom as this is mainly female orientated profession but the technical side is mainly male dominated. There needs to be a balance struck and that is going to be hard. But I think making an initiative like this (creating a Code4LibWomen) is a good idea, but by being far too inclusive (only available to those who are in the community of Code4Lib) is restrictive. I think it would be better served if it was pushed to a wider audience to make women in tech, who may not be on Code4Lib, find a community of like minded individuals. A suggestion I had made on my blog was that a SIG becreated at ALA or LITA or some other more broad reaching group. Another was working with the Ada Initiative as well. I think there is a lot that can be done, but it should be addressed on a much broader scale. The problem with sexism in the geek world is not new, by any stretch of the imagination, but what IS new is that more women are talking openly about it, everywhere. This is exciting. And promising. It's like 1920 all over again! _lisa/@pnkrcklibrarian -- Lisa M. Rabey, MA, MLIS Systems Web Librarian Grand Rapids Community College p: 616.234.3786 | e: lra...@grcc.edu http://grcc.edu/library | http://grcc.edu/library/socialmedia On 28/11/2012 at 16:00, Becky Yoose b.yo...@gmail.com wrote: If this (as in a group for women in library technology) is going to become reality, I want to see this take one step broader, and incorporate ALL women in library tech, and not just designating it to one subset of the library community (code4lib). code4lib can be a collaborator with another organization (LITA?) to reach more people. This is a broader issue than code4lib, and needs to be treated as such.
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
I agree with you that coders/sys admins speak different language, but I think you'll find this is pretty common (at least in my experience) of any differences, even within the same groups. Database programmers say versus someone who does iphone applications. I am not inferring sys admins are less geeky over coders nor am I inferring anyone one group of geekery is better than the other, and I apoloigze if this is what came across. What I am stating in the larger library world, it seems that in the discussions of geek seems to be synonymous with coder in the realm of articles and such. This is not a separation of who is better or how is not, it is a separation of what is being discussed at the much larger level over what is not. I have seen a lot of pushing in jobs, articles, and what have you for someone who is skilled in programming for say a systems job or discussion, but no mention (or very little) is made of someone who has networking experience or in hardware. These other elements are just as crucial to the job, so, why are they often left out? Again, it's not a matter of who holds the title of geek, (and it never was), but it is a matter of what is being asked for and discussed. I do think that is a disservice. _lisa -- Lisa M. Rabey, MA, MLIS Systems Web Librarian Grand Rapids Community College p: 616.234.3786 | e: lra...@grcc.edu http://grcc.edu/library | http://grcc.edu/library/socialmedia On 28/11/2012 at 19:40, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree that sysadmin/network admin types are considered less geeky, it's just that coders and sysadmins speak completely different languages, tend not to trust each other, and are generally working against one another (since they have different goals). Bess's Werewolves vs. Vampires presentation a couple years ago explained this well. But that doesn't mean that A) we don't have a lot to learn from each other B) one group gets to claim the title of geek over the other C) shouldn't all congregate under the same tent (whether that be Code4Lib or wherever). -Ross. On Nov 28, 2012, at 6:43 PM, Lisa Rabey lra...@grcc.edu wrote: Hello, Super short term lurker (since today!). It was suggested by various people on Twitter (hello people of Twitter) that I join code4lib because of this exchange and it greatly touches on one of my passions (see: http://exitpursuedbyabear.net/2012/11/why-white-men-should-not-mostly-write-about-gen der-disparity-in-technology/). What I was able to see via the archives on the website and here has been awesome! Which brings me to Becky's point below: As someone who is not a coder, has no plans on being a coder, and would rather shove things in her eyeballs then learn programming, Becky has a valid point about broadening the reach of women in tech. I've noticed a trend that in the library world (articles and such), when one talks about being a geek, it seems to be synonymous with coder. And those of us who are not coding, who are say network geeks or hardware geeks or somewhere else, are kind of left out in the cold. In a way, we're excluded from the culture as well. (I'm a network geek. I used to configure and manage tier 1 (backbone) routers back in the late '90s/ early '00s). BGP 4 LYFE. In the library world there is a huge dichotomy in the geekdom as this is mainly female orientated profession but the technical side is mainly male dominated. There needs to be a balance struck and that is going to be hard. But I think making an initiative like this (creating a Code4LibWomen) is a good idea, but by being far too inclusive (only available to those who are in the community of Code4Lib) is restrictive. I think it would be better served if it was pushed to a wider audience to make women in tech, who may not be on Code4Lib, find a community of like minded individuals. A suggestion I had made on my blog was that a SIG becreated at ALA or LITA or some other more broad reaching group. Another was working with the Ada Initiative as well. I think there is a lot that can be done, but it should be addressed on a much broader scale. The problem with sexism in the geek world is not new, by any stretch of the imagination, but what IS new is that more women are talking openly about it, everywhere. This is exciting. And promising. It's like 1920 all over again! _lisa/@pnkrcklibrarian -- Lisa M. Rabey, MA, MLIS Systems Web Librarian Grand Rapids Community College p: 616.234.3786 | e: lra...@grcc.edu http://grcc.edu/library | http://grcc.edu/library/socialmedia On 28/11/2012 at 16:00, Becky Yoose b.yo...@gmail.com wrote: If this (as in a group for women in library technology) is going to become reality, I want to see this take one step broader, and incorporate ALL women in library tech, and not just
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
I think we'd all agree, in the spirit of git :), that anyone is free and encouraged to fork the project if the current system is not serving their needs. So, Christina, if you and others have the will and interest to start a Code4LibWomen group/list, I say go for it! I think the question we have to ask ourselves about something like a Code4Lib4Women group is whether it would divert needed discussion in the greater Code4lib community, which seems largely sympathetic and interested in rectifying the issues of sexism in our little corner of the universe. My fear is that such a fork might not be constructive if it leads to a loss or further dilution of womens' perspective and contribution in the wider Code4Lib conversation, when that is exactly what we've identified as a problem. -Shaun On 11/28/12 4:01 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: Well, I guess any non-majority person, but I was thinking specifically of women ONLY because I'm a woman and I'd be willing to do something as far as coordinating. And possibly two or more non-location based chapters (i.e., one for gender, one for PoC). And I wasn't really thinking of a separate conference (though that would be cool, but no one can afford more than one conference these days, can they?) but an additional meeting at the main con AND a separate e-mail list. But I'm just throwing that out as venues that would be attractive/encouraging to me and things I know that I could do right now. Christina (Wow, I thought people would hate this concept, but me, I like it...) -Original Message- From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 12:48 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women? Sounds possibly interesting. Other than a word, what would that be exactly, and what would be the goals of it? Do you mean a different conference, or listserv, or what? On 11/28/2012 3:34 PM, Salazar, Christina wrote: And/or Code4Lib4[I hate that word minority, but cannot think of another for here, but maybe you get what I mean] Not trying to splinter, but that might be one way to encourage diversity but again, without implication that ANYONE would be excluded. (Inspired by http://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Womens-Ruby-on-Rails-Group/ ) Christina Salazar Systems Librarian John Spoor Broome Library California State University, Channel Islands 805/437-3198 [Description: Description: CI Formal Logo_1B grad_em signature] -- Shaun D. Ellis Digital Library Interface Developer Firestone Library, Princeton University voice: 609.258.1698 | sha...@princeton.edu
Re: [CODE4LIB] What about Code4Lib4Women?
On 28 Nov 2012, at 16:40, Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com wrote: I would disagree that sysadmin/network admin types are considered less geeky, it's just that coders and sysadmins speak completely different languages, tend not to trust each other, and are generally working against one another (since they have different goals). Bess's Werewolves vs. Vampires presentation a couple years ago explained this well. differently geeky with (sometimes) different goals. i'm not sure about the mutual distrust--about the only winning part of MPOW at the moment is that 2/3 of the coders have no trouble working with/trusting the systems staff (and vice versa). the other 1/3 … well, he lives on his own planet most of the time, and we can only bend reality so much. but yes, this is true more often than now. (long-time lurker, first-time writing here…) -- henry mensch / he...@henare.org -- Syracuse Univ iSchool graduating some time late next year.
