Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-27 Thread Chris Keene

Hi

I just want to backup Edward's comments.

I'm happy to discuss just about anything openly, though it is useful to 
have product specific lists, and yes at times useful to know that 
certain vendors or third party salesmen are not going to contact you as 
a result of posting.


Aquabrowser has many good points, but has lacked any sort of community, 
add to this the very limited documentation - which could lead to 
confusion as to what is a feature and what is a bespoke addition that 
another site has commissioned/developed. I even tried asking on the 
Aquabrowser Facebook fan page discussion board - its only post!

This mailing list is a very welcome addition.

Chris

On 22/10/2009 15:45, Edward M. Corrado wrote:

I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
[larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their own
discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license their
products. We even see this with Open Source products such as Koha.
Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other library
specific-software of this magnitude I understand that AquaBrowser does
not have a user group (formal or informal). There currently is very few
ways (no way?) for users of this product to converse with each other and
share ideas.

There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a closed
list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger community with a
how do activate a widget in product A to asking questions/sharing
information that for whatever reason you don't want to or can't share
with the whole world (e.g. non-disclosure agreements, public relations
concerns, privacy concerns, not wanting your name in open archives
attached to something, etc.). In fact, in some cases you may not even
want the vendor on the list the way some Voyager systems administrators
created a list that excluded Endeavor (and now Ex Libris) and
non-systems people at Voyager sites. This made people feel much more
comfortable asking questions that maybe they would otherwise be
embarrassed or reluctant to ask.
[snip]



--
Chris Keene c.j.ke...@sussex.ac.uk
Technical Development Manager   Tel (01273) 877950
University of Sussex Library
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/library/


Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-27 Thread K.G. Schneider
Actually, I didn't think the observations about the Aquabrowser mailing
list were snarky, and I think the comments were interesting and
list-appropriate. It's great that Aquabrowser will have a community
list--that will only help its users/implementors/customers. But once a
mailing list is closed to licensed users, you have then defined one of
the limitations of proprietary software and a strategic advantage of
open source. (Though a limitation that a proprietary-software vendor can
easily finesse, as described below.)

Some of the reasons for limiting the list do not hold water. In an NDA
environment, few people will get granular and frank on an internal
list, for the same reason that if they have privacy concerns they won't
post to a closed list: there's no such thing as private email. If you're
in the witness protection program, do not, I repeat do NOT post to the
Aquabrowser internal list. I don't even believe that this list could
offer enough discretion to warrant posts that the posters want to keep
moderately private. If I were contemplating a move from Vendor X, or had
serious issues I didn't want Vendor X to know about, I would do what
lawyers recommend, and which I have put into practice, which is not
write what I can share by phone, not share by phone what I can share
face-to-face, and not say what I can convey with a gesture. (With some
vendors that gesture might be NSFW, but I digress...) Is there anyone
among us who has never seen an email message go where it was not
intended to wander? 

As for winnowing the cruft, yes, that is the value of lists, but Edward,
despite other sound observations, has it a wee backwards. Lists for Koha
and Evergreen, and for that matter all open source projects I know of,
big and small, are open to anyone and are self-policing with respect to
topic discipline. It is the subscriber, not a list manager, who decides
if he or she wishes to participate (passively or actively) in list
communications. The lists may have very active participation from
vendors, but the Koha and Evergreen lists are not vendor-driven (and the
communities wouldn't let them get away with that anyway). 

The *advantages* to having an open list are worth considering for their
strategic value not only to a software community but also to the
vendors. First, you remove any confusion about the list's privacy.
Things that should not be shared by email, will not be shared by email.
Second, you open the list to potential users/customers. I think some
vendors fear their underwear showing, but if you've got a good product
people understand it will have issues, and happy users, even when they
are discussing a product's issues, are the software's best salespeople.
The community itself can also be as broad as it needs to be. 

These days, a growing number of companies have very intentional
strategies for transparency and openness. The Aquabrowser mailing list
is a very welcome addition to the world of library communications, and
it will help make a good product better. I am not losing any sleep over
the decision to keep this list closed... I don't use the product, and in
the end, I don't care that much. That said, it's my professional
assessment that closing this list to licensed subscribers is a strategic
error. 

Karen G. Schneider

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:03 +, Chris Keene c.j.ke...@sussex.ac.uk
wrote:
 Hi
 
 I just want to backup Edward's comments.
 
 I'm happy to discuss just about anything openly, though it is useful to 
 have product specific lists, and yes at times useful to know that 
 certain vendors or third party salesmen are not going to contact you as 
 a result of posting.
 
 Aquabrowser has many good points, but has lacked any sort of community, 
 add to this the very limited documentation - which could lead to 
 confusion as to what is a feature and what is a bespoke addition that 
 another site has commissioned/developed. I even tried asking on the 
 Aquabrowser Facebook fan page discussion board - its only post!
 This mailing list is a very welcome addition.
 
 Chris
 
 On 22/10/2009 15:45, Edward M. Corrado wrote:
  I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
  [larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their own
  discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license their
  products. We even see this with Open Source products such as Koha.
  Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other library
  specific-software of this magnitude I understand that AquaBrowser does
  not have a user group (formal or informal). There currently is very few
  ways (no way?) for users of this product to converse with each other and
  share ideas.
 
  There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a closed
  list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger community with a
  how do activate a widget in product A to asking questions/sharing
  information that for whatever reason you don't want to or can't share
  with the 

Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-26 Thread Joe Atzberger
I'm fairly confident there is not, just that the new list intends to (self-)
select just licensed users.
--Joe

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Cloutman, David
dclout...@co.marin.ca.uswrote:

 Interesting. Our catalog consortium just bought Aquabrowser. Is there
 some sort of NDA that you know of that would limit the discussion to
 private forums? I hadn't heard of such a thing, but then maybe no one
 thought to tell me.



 ---
 David Cloutman dclout...@co.marin.ca.us
 Electronic Services Librarian
 Marin County Free Library

 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
 Gabriel Farrell
 Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 3:02 PM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group


 While the Interesting difference... bit may be read as snarky, I
 appreciated Jeffrey's post for pointing out that most discussions about
 AquaBrowser can't take place on this list due to its lack of membership
 restrictions.


 On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Edward M. Corrado wrote:
  I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
  [larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their
  own discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license
  their products. We even see this with Open Source products such as
  Koha. Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other
  library specific-software of this magnitude I understand that
  AquaBrowser does not have a user group (formal or informal). There
  currently is very few ways (no way?) for users of this product to
  converse with each other and share ideas.
 
  There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a
  closed list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger
  community with a how do activate a widget in product A to asking
  questions/sharing information that for whatever reason you don't
  want to or can't share with the whole world (e.g. non-disclosure
  agreements, public relations concerns, privacy concerns, not wanting
  your name in open archives attached to something, etc.).  In fact,
  in some cases you may not even want the vendor on the list the way
  some Voyager systems administrators created a list that excluded
  Endeavor (and now Ex Libris) and non-systems people at Voyager
  sites. This made people feel much more comfortable asking questions
  that maybe they would otherwise be embarrassed or reluctant to ask.
 
  I applaud Kathryn for taking the initiative to organize the
  AquaBrowser community by creating the AquaBrowser Libraries Group.
  From what I understand from people that use the product this is
  something that is overdue for the community.
 
  What the library technology world needs is more people like Kathryn
  that try to build community to help each other with whatever
  software product they are using. Sure, in a perfect world maybe
  everything would be completely Open but that is not reality. People
  that take initiative should be praised. They should not be met with
  snarky comments.
 
  Edward
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
  mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
  Barnett, Jeffrey
  Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:05 AM
  To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
  Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
  Good point Ed, but I think by the phrase Licensed sites only the
  intent of the AquaBrowser discussion _is_ to exclude open source.
  Interesting difference...
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
  mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
  Ed Summers
  Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:19 PM
  To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
  Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
  You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
  code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.
 
  //Ed
  - Hide quoted text -
 
  On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
  kfred...@skidmore.edu mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
   Please excuse cross-posting.
  
   I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
   questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider
 joining.
   This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu
  mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
   send you an invite.
  
   Licensed sites only, please.
  
   Thanks,
   Kathryn



Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-26 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
But that doesnt' prevent people discussing AquaBrowser in other forums 
as well, does it?


Joe Atzberger wrote:

I'm fairly confident there is not, just that the new list intends to (self-)
select just licensed users.
--Joe

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Cloutman, David
dclout...@co.marin.ca.uswrote:

  

Interesting. Our catalog consortium just bought Aquabrowser. Is there
some sort of NDA that you know of that would limit the discussion to
private forums? I hadn't heard of such a thing, but then maybe no one
thought to tell me.



---
David Cloutman dclout...@co.marin.ca.us
Electronic Services Librarian
Marin County Free Library

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Gabriel Farrell
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 3:02 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group


While the Interesting difference... bit may be read as snarky, I
appreciated Jeffrey's post for pointing out that most discussions about
AquaBrowser can't take place on this list due to its lack of membership
restrictions.


On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Edward M. Corrado wrote:


I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
[larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their
own discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license
their products. We even see this with Open Source products such as
Koha. Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other
library specific-software of this magnitude I understand that
AquaBrowser does not have a user group (formal or informal). There
currently is very few ways (no way?) for users of this product to
converse with each other and share ideas.

There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a
closed list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger
community with a how do activate a widget in product A to asking
questions/sharing information that for whatever reason you don't
want to or can't share with the whole world (e.g. non-disclosure
agreements, public relations concerns, privacy concerns, not wanting
your name in open archives attached to something, etc.).  In fact,
in some cases you may not even want the vendor on the list the way
some Voyager systems administrators created a list that excluded
Endeavor (and now Ex Libris) and non-systems people at Voyager
sites. This made people feel much more comfortable asking questions
that maybe they would otherwise be embarrassed or reluctant to ask.

I applaud Kathryn for taking the initiative to organize the
AquaBrowser community by creating the AquaBrowser Libraries Group.
From what I understand from people that use the product this is
something that is overdue for the community.

What the library technology world needs is more people like Kathryn
that try to build community to help each other with whatever
software product they are using. Sure, in a perfect world maybe
everything would be completely Open but that is not reality. People
that take initiative should be praised. They should not be met with
snarky comments.

Edward

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
Barnett, Jeffrey
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:05 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

Good point Ed, but I think by the phrase Licensed sites only the
intent of the AquaBrowser discussion _is_ to exclude open source.
Interesting difference...

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
Ed Summers
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:19 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.

//Ed
- Hide quoted text -

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
kfred...@skidmore.edu mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
  

Please excuse cross-posting.

I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider


joining.


This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu


mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
  

send you an invite.

Licensed sites only, please.

Thanks,
Kathryn



Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-23 Thread Cloutman, David
Interesting. Our catalog consortium just bought Aquabrowser. Is there
some sort of NDA that you know of that would limit the discussion to
private forums? I hadn't heard of such a thing, but then maybe no one
thought to tell me. 



---
David Cloutman dclout...@co.marin.ca.us
Electronic Services Librarian
Marin County Free Library 

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Gabriel Farrell
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 3:02 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group


While the Interesting difference... bit may be read as snarky, I
appreciated Jeffrey's post for pointing out that most discussions about
AquaBrowser can't take place on this list due to its lack of membership
restrictions.


On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Edward M. Corrado wrote:
 I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
 [larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their
 own discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license
 their products. We even see this with Open Source products such as
 Koha. Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other
 library specific-software of this magnitude I understand that
 AquaBrowser does not have a user group (formal or informal). There
 currently is very few ways (no way?) for users of this product to
 converse with each other and share ideas.
 
 There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a
 closed list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger
 community with a how do activate a widget in product A to asking
 questions/sharing information that for whatever reason you don't
 want to or can't share with the whole world (e.g. non-disclosure
 agreements, public relations concerns, privacy concerns, not wanting
 your name in open archives attached to something, etc.).  In fact,
 in some cases you may not even want the vendor on the list the way
 some Voyager systems administrators created a list that excluded
 Endeavor (and now Ex Libris) and non-systems people at Voyager
 sites. This made people feel much more comfortable asking questions
 that maybe they would otherwise be embarrassed or reluctant to ask.
 
 I applaud Kathryn for taking the initiative to organize the
 AquaBrowser community by creating the AquaBrowser Libraries Group.
 From what I understand from people that use the product this is
 something that is overdue for the community.
 
 What the library technology world needs is more people like Kathryn
 that try to build community to help each other with whatever
 software product they are using. Sure, in a perfect world maybe
 everything would be completely Open but that is not reality. People
 that take initiative should be praised. They should not be met with
 snarky comments.
 
 Edward
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Barnett, Jeffrey
 Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:05 AM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
 Good point Ed, but I think by the phrase Licensed sites only the
 intent of the AquaBrowser discussion _is_ to exclude open source.
 Interesting difference...
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Ed Summers
 Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:19 PM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
 You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
 code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.
 
 //Ed
 - Hide quoted text -
 
 On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
 kfred...@skidmore.edu mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
  Please excuse cross-posting.
 
  I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
  questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider
joining.
  This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu
 mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
  send you an invite.
 
  Licensed sites only, please.
 
  Thanks,
  Kathryn
 
 

Email Disclaimer: http://www.co.marin.ca.us/nav/misc/EmailDisclaimer.cfm


Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-22 Thread Barnett, Jeffrey
Good point Ed, but I think by the phrase Licensed sites only the intent of 
the AquaBrowser discussion _is_ to exclude open source.  Interesting 
difference... 

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Ed 
Summers
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:19 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.

//Ed

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
 Please excuse cross-posting.

 I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
 questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider joining.
 This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
 send you an invite.

 Licensed sites only, please.

 Thanks,
 Kathryn



Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-22 Thread Gabriel Farrell
While the Interesting difference... bit may be read as snarky, I
appreciated Jeffrey's post for pointing out that most discussions about
AquaBrowser can't take place on this list due to its lack of membership
restrictions.


On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 10:45:24AM -0400, Edward M. Corrado wrote:
 I don't see this as an interesting difference at all. Almost all
 [larger] vendor-supplied products in the library world have their
 own discussion lists that are limited to people that use/license
 their products. We even see this with Open Source products such as
 Koha. Although I do not use AquaBrowser, unlike almost all other
 library specific-software of this magnitude I understand that
 AquaBrowser does not have a user group (formal or informal). There
 currently is very few ways (no way?) for users of this product to
 converse with each other and share ideas.
 
 There are numerous reasons for wanting to share information on a
 closed list that can range from not wanting to spam a larger
 community with a how do activate a widget in product A to asking
 questions/sharing information that for whatever reason you don't
 want to or can't share with the whole world (e.g. non-disclosure
 agreements, public relations concerns, privacy concerns, not wanting
 your name in open archives attached to something, etc.).  In fact,
 in some cases you may not even want the vendor on the list the way
 some Voyager systems administrators created a list that excluded
 Endeavor (and now Ex Libris) and non-systems people at Voyager
 sites. This made people feel much more comfortable asking questions
 that maybe they would otherwise be embarrassed or reluctant to ask.
 
 I applaud Kathryn for taking the initiative to organize the
 AquaBrowser community by creating the AquaBrowser Libraries Group.
 From what I understand from people that use the product this is
 something that is overdue for the community.
 
 What the library technology world needs is more people like Kathryn
 that try to build community to help each other with whatever
 software product they are using. Sure, in a perfect world maybe
 everything would be completely Open but that is not reality. People
 that take initiative should be praised. They should not be met with
 snarky comments.
 
 Edward
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Barnett, Jeffrey
 Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:05 AM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
 Good point Ed, but I think by the phrase Licensed sites only the
 intent of the AquaBrowser discussion _is_ to exclude open source.
 Interesting difference...
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Ed Summers
 Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:19 PM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group
 
 You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
 code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.
 
 //Ed
 - Hide quoted text -
 
 On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
 kfred...@skidmore.edu mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
  Please excuse cross-posting.
 
  I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
  questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider joining.
  This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu
 mailto:kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
  send you an invite.
 
  Licensed sites only, please.
 
  Thanks,
  Kathryn
 
 


Re: [CODE4LIB] AquaBrowser Libraries Group

2009-10-21 Thread Ed Summers
You should also feel free to discuss AquaBrowser on here too ... the
code4lib discussion isn't limited to opensource software.

//Ed

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kathryn Frederick
kfred...@skidmore.edu wrote:
 Please excuse cross-posting.

 I've set up an AquaBrowser Google Group to share tips and post
 questions. If your library uses AquaBrowser, please consider joining.
 This group is restricted, email me at kfred...@skidmore.edu and I'll
 send you an invite.

 Licensed sites only, please.

 Thanks,
 Kathryn