Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-25 Thread Tim Spalding
 Security measures can be set in place to prevent
 the scenario you describe.

Is the state of Minnesota or the city of Minneapolis able to copyright
its work? Certainly this is impossible on the Federal level. But state
laws vary. What would a FOIA request produce?

 Tagging systems (or pop culture cataloging) such as those
 used by Amazon.com were consciously or unconsciously
 inspired by Berman's work,

I don't think that's so. As the inventor of the first such system for
books, I can say that I was not inspired by Berman's work, impressive
as I now know it to be. Nor I suspect was Joshua Schachter, who
designed tagging for Del.icio.us.

It is an unfortunate fact that information technology has largely
bypassed librarianship. One reason for this is that librarians have
convinced themelves that their work should not be public—that the
taxpayer-funded work of a public library should be kept under
restrictive terms.

 but although they are dynamic
 and current, they are simplisitic and undisciplined...we've
 got a sort of highly personalized marginally literate chaos
 where 5 people can all tag the same item differently
 and the sixth person who may search for that item may not search for it
 using any of the tags the previous 5 assigned.

Do you speak from any experience in this topic? For example, have you
compared systems in reality, or is this just a theoretical opinion
about reality?

I don't think marginally literate applies to LibraryThing's tagging,
generally. Nor do I think LibraryThing's 37 million tags are more
likely to yield no hits than one man's subject system. Anyway, if
regular human beings are simplistic and undisciplined when they tag
things, they are also so when they search for them.

I think there is a place for both formal subject systems—and the more
the better—and informal tagging systems. Having spent a few years
carefully comparing the results, however, and seeing many success, I
am weary of those who, to paraphrase Clay Shirky, refuse to see it
working in practice, because they already know it doesn't work in
theory.

 Berman's system is dynamic and current but also
 finely, structured and highly disciplined, he's
 created a great cognitive map of interconnected
 associations that bring order to chaos and clarifies
 and defines issues evolving in the culture...

 you could say a good search engine does that
 but his brain worked and still works in a more
 exquisitely sophisticated and powerful way than
 any search engine I've used.

I appreciate that you admire the man, but this is an almost mystical idea.

 As to someone using his work for profit...get real
 no one besides ourselves has a clue
 to the value and usefulness of Berman's work,
 and they don't care to find out...and they
 certainly would not make the effort to
 deconstruct it and turn it into a Twitter
 version of a catalog, especially since
 they can't profit from it.

I consider that a challenge!

 There's no monetary gold to be harvested from
 Berman's work...there's treasure of another
 kind!

It seems to me that any system useful for finding things has value of
every sort imaginable, including financial.

Tim


Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-24 Thread Hahn, Harvey
Ed Summers wrote:
|As for Karen's question about the Internet Archive: it totally makes
|sense to host the data up there. But, I had to sign a scary license
|agreement from the UIUC Archives, which *almost* stopped me from even
|releasing http://catalog.sanfordberman.org ... Madeline can say for
|sure, but I'm fairly certain this license prevents putting the data up
|for the public. The ultimate disservice to Sanford Berman IMHO.
|/me sighs

Same experience here.  I responded directly to Karen:
See http://catalog.sanfordberman.org/ -- it refers to licensing from
the Univ of Illinois Archives.  When the data first became available a
number of years ago, I obtained a copy, and I remember that you had to
specify that you were obtaining the data for personal research purposes
only and that the data could not be made publicly available (or
something to that effect).  Things may have changed since then, but I
don't know for sure.

Until such a time (if ever) that the Berman catalog is publicly
released, maybe a substitute public version (not perfect, but maybe
close) could be reconstructed by harvesting library catalogs that
incorporated Sandy's headings and xrefs.  Sort of how the Dead Sea
Scrolls were reconstructed for public access by working backwards from
a concordance back in the 1990s.  The hard part is probably trying to
find libraries which subscribed to Sandy's microform and print
publications of new headings and actually incorporated them.  Of course,
we know that LC is *not* in that group!  (Although some of his headings
did eventually find their way into LCSH.)

The first ALA conference I ever attended (in Chicago in 1978) had Sandy
Berman on the floor and Lucia Rather from LC on the podium passionately
arguing about LCSH terminology.  It was my first introduction to Sandy
(my thought: wow, is this what goes on at ALA?), and (from a distance) I
followed his career ever since.  I was later able to hear him speak at a
local Illinois Library Association conference in 1989 about subject
terminology and had an opportunity to personally speak with him
afterwards.  I very much favored (and have been influenced by) his
subject headings and, even if I may not have assigned them or directly
entered them into local library authority files, I certainly have tried
to follow that spirit in creating cross references, so that access under
such terminology is not lost.

Harvey


Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-24 Thread Ed Summers
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Hahn, Harvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Same experience here.  I responded directly to Karen:
 See http://catalog.sanfordberman.org/ -- it refers to licensing from
 the Univ of Illinois Archives.  When the data first became available a
 number of years ago, I obtained a copy, and I remember that you had to
 specify that you were obtaining the data for personal research purposes
 only and that the data could not be made publicly available (or
 something to that effect).  Things may have changed since then, but I
 don't know for sure.

 Until such a time (if ever) that the Berman catalog is publicly
 released, maybe a substitute public version (not perfect, but maybe
 close) could be reconstructed by harvesting library catalogs that
 incorporated Sandy's headings and xrefs.

Just for the record, the data behind catalog.sanfordberman.org is the
UIUC data. At the time Madeline corresponded with UIUC Archives and we
arrived at a general understanding that the application wouldn't do
any harm. However, I think Madeline has some ideas on how the
presentation of the authority data (which is modeled) could be
improved.

//Ed


Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-24 Thread Ross Singer
I'm not sure this addressing the criteria of the licensing.  How would
you stop commercial purposes?

Say I work for a UK-based vendor that starts with a T (as hard as
that may seem) and I devise a script (or, even more crazily, have root
access to the server to the server that the Berman catalog runs on...)
that pulls the data into publicly accessible Platform store.  You
know, for the common good.

Some random developer then uses that Platform store, builds an
interface on, because, you know, Berman data!  It's cool!  But they
have Google Ads in their interface.

Some (admittedly small) amount of money changes hands from Google to developer.

UIUC decides to sue since this against their licensing terms.

Who's liable?

Go!
-Ross.
p.s.  The answer here is for UIUC to license this under an open data
license -- NOT for a developer to release and pray.

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:42 PM, md [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In regard to Harvey's concerns about the license agreement for the
 Berman catalog:

 The catalog IS publicly available on the Sanford Berman website and
 has been for about 3 years.   Ed began development of a Ruby application.
 His work was very important and very appreciatedjust not finished.

 The license agreement states that you must use the databases for
 scholarly, education and research purposes, not for commercial or
 other purposes.That's how I'm using the databases.That's how
 I imagine everyone would use them.

 Ruby was one solution but I'm open to others.

 The structure of Berman's work is so complex and beautiful,
 the content so innovative and global that I would think anyone
 with an OSS Opac...Koha etc. would welcome the honor
 and the challenge of giving Berman's work a new environment
 to live in.

 So who among you will accept the challenge?

 ---Madeline Douglass
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-24 Thread md
Security measures can be set in place to prevent
the scenario you describe.

Tagging systems (or pop culture cataloging) such as those
used by Amazon.com were consciously or unconsciously
inspired by Berman's work, but although they are dynamic
and current, they are simplisitic and undisciplined...we've
got a sort of highly personalized marginally literate chaos
where 5 people can all tag the same item differently
and the sixth person who may search for that item may not search for it
using any of the tags the previous 5 assigned.

Berman's system is dynamic and current but also
finely, structured and highly disciplined, he's
created a great cognitive map of interconnected
associations that bring order to chaos and clarifies
and defines issues evolving in the culture...
you could say a good search engine does that
but his brain worked and still works in a more
exquisitely sophisticated and powerful way than
any search engine I've used.

As to someone using his work for profit...get real
no one besides ourselves has a clue
to the value and usefulness of Berman's work,
and they don't care to find out...and they
certainly would not make the effort to
deconstruct it and turn it into a Twitter
version of a catalog, especially since
they can't profit from it.

There's no monetary gold to be harvested from
Berman's work...there's treasure of another
kind!



- Original Message - 
From: Ross Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog


 I'm not sure this addressing the criteria of the licensing.  How would
 you stop commercial purposes?

 Say I work for a UK-based vendor that starts with a T (as hard as
 that may seem) and I devise a script (or, even more crazily, have root
 access to the server to the server that the Berman catalog runs on...)
 that pulls the data into publicly accessible Platform store.  You
 know, for the common good.

 Some random developer then uses that Platform store, builds an
 interface on, because, you know, Berman data!  It's cool!  But they
 have Google Ads in their interface.

 Some (admittedly small) amount of money changes hands from Google to
developer.

 UIUC decides to sue since this against their licensing terms.

 Who's liable?

 Go!
 -Ross.
 p.s.  The answer here is for UIUC to license this under an open data
 license -- NOT for a developer to release and pray.

 On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:42 PM, md [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  In regard to Harvey's concerns about the license agreement for the
  Berman catalog:
 
  The catalog IS publicly available on the Sanford Berman website and
  has been for about 3 years.   Ed began development of a Ruby
application.
  His work was very important and very appreciatedjust not finished.
 
  The license agreement states that you must use the databases for
  scholarly, education and research purposes, not for commercial or
  other purposes.That's how I'm using the databases.That's how
  I imagine everyone would use them.
 
  Ruby was one solution but I'm open to others.
 
  The structure of Berman's work is so complex and beautiful,
  the content so innovative and global that I would think anyone
  with an OSS Opac...Koha etc. would welcome the honor
  and the challenge of giving Berman's work a new environment
  to live in.
 
  So who among you will accept the challenge?
 
  ---Madeline Douglass
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-23 Thread Ed Summers
I actually created a minimal RubyOnRails view on the Berman data a few
years ago.

  http://catalog.sanfordberman.org

The src code for this is readily available if anyone is interested in
helping Madeline work on it:

  http://inkdroid.org/bzr/berman/

The data has an interesting history, for anyone working with machine
readable cataloging data.

//Ed


Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-23 Thread Karen Coyle
Are there any rights issues? If not, it would be good to make the raw 
files available, say by putting them up at the Internet Archive.


kc

md wrote:
I have the raw data files of the former Hennepin County Library 
catalog and authority files.   


This is the innovative, unique catalog created
by Sandy Berman. 1970s-2002.

I would like to import the data into a MYSQL database.  I assume
this can be done with Perl, but don't know if an existing parser
would work or if a custom program would be needed.

I have no programming skills.   There must be someone...
here who knows and values Berman's work and is ready, 
willing and able to devote their knowledge

and skills to making it accessible once again.

Please contact me with questions on or off list.

Thank You!

Madeline Douglass
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.sanfordberman.org 



  



--
---
Karen Coyle / Digital Library Consultant
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kcoyle.net
ph.: 510-540-7596   skype: kcoylenet
fx.: 510-848-3913
mo.: 510-435-8234



Re: [CODE4LIB] The Berman Catalog

2008-06-23 Thread md
Thanks for the encouraging words about the Berman Catalog to fellow
colleagues...

I don't know if you know, but

Although I did find the Ruby code here http://inkdroid.org/bzr/berman/

I did not find the Marc record reader or parser you created...was it
MARC : : Forgiving Reader? to read the records, then import them
into the MYSQL database.

and

I did not find the MYSQL database/databases? you designed.

I assume these are still resident on your server.If I am remembering
this
right, I think that you had imported some but not all of the catalog records
and there was not time to create the authority file database(s) ?

All I have to work with right now is the raw data.

So  I need to get 100% of the raw data catalog and authority files into one
or
perhaps several MYSQL databases, before the work on the Ruby display
can proceed.

I've recently heard of a Ruby based OPAC Blacklight, but don't know if
that would work for this project.

So if I can find someone to help, he or she would have to do what I assume
you already did

1. Assess the state of the raw data to find out if all the delimiters
are where they should be and perhaps fix any data imperfections
that would be an obstacle to transfer

2. Create a structure for the MYSQL database after analysing the
structure of the data...field lengths/repeating fields, etc.

3. Either use an existing or create a custom Marc Reader or parser
to read the records and import them into MYSQL.

There would also have to be a way of checking if everything transferred okay
without data loss...I used to call this data validation.

Now...if you would send me a copy of MARC : : ForgivingReader
and the MYSQL database you created either populated with
the records you put into it or blank but with the structure you
defined, that would eliminate the need to reinvent the wheel
and start over.

And although I hope this message will bring me someone
who can help, so far the responses I've received are from
people with their own projects.   So if you do know anyone
who can help, let me know.

If it's someone who would need funding, I'll find out
if funds could be raised.

Times a wastin...Sandy and George Carlin have/had
the same condition.

Madeline Douglass
[EMAIL PROTECTED]