Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-08-02 Thread John Klima
I know that I'm jumping into this late, and you may have already chosen 
something, but I had good luck using the Wiki Matrix to select a wiki:

http://www.wikimatrix.org/

There's a Choice Wizard that you use to answer questions to guide you to a list 
of wikis that match your needs. It's been updated as recently as July 31 of 
this year, but there is always the chance that it's missing available wikis.

John Klima / Assistant Director / Waukesha Public Library / 262-524-3688 / 
jkl...@waukesha.lib.wi.us

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Nathan 
Tallman
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:05 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating and 
editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use it. I was 
hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type of editing 
interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I should at least 
peak at Confluence.

Thanks for the input,
Nathan

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages, it will be 
 very hard to get widespread adoption with it.



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-31 Thread Nate Vack
On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:13 PM, Ryan Ordway rord...@oregonstate.edu wrote:

 3. The authentication source priority scheme is not at all flexible. We have 
 run into situations where local users that had been around for years suddenly 
 could not login because there is a matching user in the LDAP directory, and 
 for various reasons we had to give the LDAP directory higher priority.

This is getting pretty far-afield, but don't do this! If you need to
do crazy directory merging stuff, it seems way smarter to set up your
own LDAP service that delegates to other directories as you expect
than it does to expect your wiki to be as smart as a full-fledged
directory service.

It's definitely a bummer that there's no out-of-the box way to switch
from a local auth setup to a directory-based setup.

-n


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-31 Thread Richmond,Ian
We have used the fsckeditor for our gui editor with mediawiki for about 5 years 
now.  It is added as a mediawiki extension.  Certainly helps not making 
everyone learn wiki syntax as before.

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Nathan 
Tallman
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:05 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating and 
editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use it. I was 
hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type of editing 
interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I should at least 
peak at Confluence.

Thanks for the input,
Nathan

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages, it will be 
 very hard to get widespread adoption with it.



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-30 Thread Ryan Ordway
I will second this. We run Confluence as well, and it worked great as long as 
we didn't try to do anything fancy with it. Then we decided to expand its use 
to other units on campus, which meant linking it up with an LDAP directory...

1. There is no facility for moving users from being local accounts to being 
LDAP accounts. If you need LDAP, start with LDAP. If you need to migrate to 
LDAP, you will be doing unsupported database modifications.

2. There is no facility for choosing which type of users you are creating. 
There is no way to specify I am creating a local account, or I am linking to 
an LDAP account. New users get created in whichever authentication source has 
highest priority. To create users in other directories you have to change their 
priorities, which can cause login failures if there are any naming conflicts 
between authentication sources.

3. The authentication source priority scheme is not at all flexible. We have 
run into situations where local users that had been around for years suddenly 
could not login because there is a matching user in the LDAP directory, and for 
various reasons we had to give the LDAP directory higher priority. 

4. There is no facility for changing usernames. There is a feature request for 
this that is many, many years old and no plans that I've heard of to implement 
it. If you run into #3, then you get to learn the database schema and develop 
your own code to rename users.

5. As a Java-based application that runs in a servlet container like Apache 
Tomcat, it is very memory hungry and doesn't play well in Virtualized 
environments. Atlassian recommends that Confluence NOT be run in a virtualized 
environment, which can be a deal breaker for some institutions. 

For the amount of money it costs to run their software, there should be no duct 
tape and chicken wire involved in its operation.


--
Ryan Ordway   E-mail: rord...@oregonstate.edu
Unix Systems Administrator   rord...@library.oregonstate.edu
OSU Libraries, Corvallis, OR 97331Office: Valley Library #4657

On Jul 25, 2012, at 6:32 AM, Sean Hannan wrote:

 As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I hate
 it.
 
 Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any kind
 of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If that's the
 case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.
 
 I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I ran
 into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their issue tracker
 for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, generally, and
 sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them and it's hard to keep
 up. And the longer you wait, the more painful the upgrades become.
 
 I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think that we
 do not get what we pay for with Confluence.
 
 -Sean
 
 On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.
 
 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan
 
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 
 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.
 


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-30 Thread Cary Gordon
We run a fairly significant Confluence installation on CentOS over
VMWare, and have had no problems.

Thanks,

Cary

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Ryan Ordway rord...@oregonstate.edu wrote:
 I will second this. We run Confluence as well, and it worked great as long as 
 we didn't try to do anything fancy with it. Then we decided to expand its use 
 to other units on campus, which meant linking it up with an LDAP directory...

 1. There is no facility for moving users from being local accounts to being 
 LDAP accounts. If you need LDAP, start with LDAP. If you need to migrate to 
 LDAP, you will be doing unsupported database modifications.

 2. There is no facility for choosing which type of users you are creating. 
 There is no way to specify I am creating a local account, or I am linking 
 to an LDAP account. New users get created in whichever authentication source 
 has highest priority. To create users in other directories you have to change 
 their priorities, which can cause login failures if there are any naming 
 conflicts between authentication sources.

 3. The authentication source priority scheme is not at all flexible. We have 
 run into situations where local users that had been around for years suddenly 
 could not login because there is a matching user in the LDAP directory, and 
 for various reasons we had to give the LDAP directory higher priority.

 4. There is no facility for changing usernames. There is a feature request 
 for this that is many, many years old and no plans that I've heard of to 
 implement it. If you run into #3, then you get to learn the database schema 
 and develop your own code to rename users.

 5. As a Java-based application that runs in a servlet container like Apache 
 Tomcat, it is very memory hungry and doesn't play well in Virtualized 
 environments. Atlassian recommends that Confluence NOT be run in a 
 virtualized environment, which can be a deal breaker for some institutions.

 For the amount of money it costs to run their software, there should be no 
 duct tape and chicken wire involved in its operation.


 --
 Ryan Ordway   E-mail: rord...@oregonstate.edu
 Unix Systems Administrator   rord...@library.oregonstate.edu
 OSU Libraries, Corvallis, OR 97331Office: Valley Library #4657

 On Jul 25, 2012, at 6:32 AM, Sean Hannan wrote:

 As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I hate
 it.

 Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any kind
 of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If that's the
 case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.

 I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I ran
 into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their issue tracker
 for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, generally, and
 sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them and it's hard to keep
 up. And the longer you wait, the more painful the upgrades become.

 I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think that we
 do not get what we pay for with Confluence.

 -Sean

 On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.

 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.




-- 
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-26 Thread Shaun Ellis

These wikis use Git as their backend for tracking changes.  Kinda cool:

https://github.com/al3x/git-wiki

http://el-tramo.be/software/wigit/

-Shaun

On 7/25/12 9:34 PM, Nate Vack wrote:

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote:

WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.


Well... it depends on what you want. If you want clean, valid HTML,
then yes -- WYSIWYG editors are unholy abominations unleashed upon the
earth.

If you want documents to look mostly closely like the author intended,
they're not so bad. Occasionally we need to do a paste it into
Notepad and then back maneuver, but it's rare.

Sometimes people do really, really strange things like pasting an
entire web page or Word document into the Wiki editor. For extra fun,
paste an entire wiki editor into the wiki editor. That's its own
meta-trip.

But the worst case response tends to be How the heck did you do that?
Let's revert that, shall we?

-n



--
Shaun D. Ellis
Digital Library Interface Developer
Firestone Library, Princeton University
voice: 609.258.1698 | sha...@princeton.edu


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-26 Thread Cary Gordon
More often than not, the author seems to intend the poleaxing of your
user experience.

Cary

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote:
 WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.

 Well... it depends on what you want. If you want clean, valid HTML,
 then yes -- WYSIWYG editors are unholy abominations unleashed upon the
 earth.

 If you want documents to look mostly closely like the author intended,
 they're not so bad. Occasionally we need to do a paste it into
 Notepad and then back maneuver, but it's rare.

 Sometimes people do really, really strange things like pasting an
 entire web page or Word document into the Wiki editor. For extra fun,
 paste an entire wiki editor into the wiki editor. That's its own
 meta-trip.

 But the worst case response tends to be How the heck did you do that?
 Let's revert that, shall we?

 -n



-- 
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-26 Thread David Uspal
I'm having issues with my edits not looking right on the page.

Did you cut and paste from a Word document into the WYSIWYG editor?

Yes.

Bingo.


-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Cary 
Gordon
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:22 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

More often than not, the author seems to intend the poleaxing of your
user experience.

Cary

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote:
 WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.

 Well... it depends on what you want. If you want clean, valid HTML,
 then yes -- WYSIWYG editors are unholy abominations unleashed upon the
 earth.

 If you want documents to look mostly closely like the author intended,
 they're not so bad. Occasionally we need to do a paste it into
 Notepad and then back maneuver, but it's rare.

 Sometimes people do really, really strange things like pasting an
 entire web page or Word document into the Wiki editor. For extra fun,
 paste an entire wiki editor into the wiki editor. That's its own
 meta-trip.

 But the worst case response tends to be How the heck did you do that?
 Let's revert that, shall we?

 -n



-- 
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-26 Thread scott bacon
I've got the diacritical blues myself right about now...

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:39 AM, David Uspal david.us...@villanova.eduwrote:

 I'm having issues with my edits not looking right on the page.

 Did you cut and paste from a Word document into the WYSIWYG editor?

 Yes.

 Bingo.


 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Cary Gordon
 Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 11:22 AM
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

 More often than not, the author seems to intend the poleaxing of your
 user experience.

 Cary

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
  On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com
 wrote:
  WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.
 
  Well... it depends on what you want. If you want clean, valid HTML,
  then yes -- WYSIWYG editors are unholy abominations unleashed upon the
  earth.
 
  If you want documents to look mostly closely like the author intended,
  they're not so bad. Occasionally we need to do a paste it into
  Notepad and then back maneuver, but it's rare.
 
  Sometimes people do really, really strange things like pasting an
  entire web page or Word document into the Wiki editor. For extra fun,
  paste an entire wiki editor into the wiki editor. That's its own
  meta-trip.
 
  But the worst case response tends to be How the heck did you do that?
  Let's revert that, shall we?
 
  -n



 --
 Cary Gordon
 The Cherry Hill Company
 http://chillco.com



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread MJ Ray
Dhanushka Samarakoon dhan...@gmail.com
 Confluence is free for non-profits, but for academics they charge a reduced
 fee. http://www.atlassian.com/licensing/confluence
 
 If you just want a basic wiki mediawiki would work, but for more elaborated
 access control (and other features) Confluence would be better.

Atlassian are particularly insiduous, using dodgy tactics like free
first hits for FOSS projects and non-profits to try to get people
hooked and keep them away from the community using and improving free
software.  I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard
librarians criticising similar divide-and-conquer marketing efforts
like free-to-university-libraries from library service providers,
so I'm surprised to see people recommending it here!

I'm no big fan of mediawiki (mainly because its markup is incompatible
with earlier wikis, which confuses me every time), but it has a vast
range of extensions, so it's definitely not basic.  Much better to be
part of an information-sharing community, isn't it?

(I use trac's wiki and mediawiki on various projects.  I've contributed
to a few projects that use Confluence, but really don't like it.)

Hope that helps,
-- 
MJ Ray (slef), member of www.software.coop, a for-more-than-profit co-op.
http://koha-community.org supporter, web and library systems developer.
In My Opinion Only: see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Available for hire (including development) at http://www.software.coop/


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Christian Pietsch
Hi Nathan,

given the huge user base of MediaWiki, you would need very good
reasons (read: special requirements) to choose anything else. Also,
the large developer community makes Mediawiki a more future-proof
choice than anything commercial backed by a single company.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 04:34:27PM -0400, Nathan Tallman wrote:
 There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
 recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
 curve for users? 

I think it is fair to say that everyone who uses the Internet also
uses Wikipedia, either passively or actively. Have you noticed that
search engines will usually return a link to a Wikipedia article on
the first page of results, no matter what you are looking for? Hence,
there will be no learning curve if you choose Mediawiki.

At my university, I run a small internal MediaWiki farm for purposes
like yours. My signature below links to two spare-time projects: These
are public MediaWiki installations I run elsewhere on a rented virtual
private server (Linux VPS). One is using the Semantic Mediawiki
extension to implement a database of text generation software systems
and related publications; the other serves as a lightweight Web
content management system (WCMS) for a special interest group of a
research association. I have found MediaWiki easy to use, install and
maintain, and so far I have always found a suitable free extension
whenever the included funcionality did not suffice. On the other hand,
if you need fine-grained access controls, then you do not want a wiki
but a full, traditional WCMS.

Cheers,
Christian

-- 
   Christian Pietsch
   http://www.nlg-wiki.org/ ยท http://www.sigsem.org/
   Bielefeld University Library and CRC 882
   Bielefeld, Germany


pgpHysK7exoCl.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Nate Vack
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:
 There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
 recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
 curve for users?

We looked at a bunch(!) of them a couple years back, and the two
standouts were Confluence and Apple's Wiki Server. The fact that we
already had a couple OS X Server boxes laying around made the choice
rather easy. Confluence's price also weighed in rather a lot.

We've had a few power users complain about lack of functionality, and
search is surprisingly dodgy (we're still on 10.6, though; I hear 10.7
is better) but we've been awfully happy with it. I'm still kind of
shocked to look back and realize that our lab successfully adopted a
wiki.

If you have a dedicated core of people who will be responsible for
maintaining the wiki and happy to embrace its wiki syntax and other
strangenesses (common question: how do I create a page?), MediaWiki
may be best. If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.

-n


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Nathan Tallman
That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
should at least peak at Confluence.

Thanks for the input,
Nathan

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Katie Filbert
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.


It's still experimental but the Wikimedia Foundation is developing a visual
WYSIWYG type editor.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor:Sandbox (try it)

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor

The goal is to make it easier to edit without the wiki syntax.  There still
will be an advanced edit option so that people can still use markup if
they want.

Cheers,
Katie Filbert



 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

  If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
  it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.
 




-- 
Katie Filbert
Board member, Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org
filbe...@gmail.com
@filbertkm / @wikimediadc


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Nathan Tallman
Excellent, thank you Katie!

Nathan

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when
 creating
  and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
  it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG
 type
  of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
  should at least peak at Confluence.
 

 It's still experimental but the Wikimedia Foundation is developing a visual
 WYSIWYG type editor.

 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor:Sandbox (try it)

 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor

 The goal is to make it easier to edit without the wiki syntax.  There still
 will be an advanced edit option so that people can still use markup if
 they want.

 Cheers,
 Katie Filbert


 
  Thanks for the input,
  Nathan
 
  On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 
   If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
   it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.
  
 



 --
 Katie Filbert
 Board member, Wikimedia District of Columbia
 http://wikimediadc.org
 filbe...@gmail.com
 @filbertkm / @wikimediadc



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Laura Robbins
We use PMWiki (http://pmwiki.org/) as our wiki.  It's php based,
stable, open source, has a large community of developers, and it's
easy to configure and work with.  It also has a fairly easy to learn
editor.  Not quite WYSIWG, but doable.

You can also set up a variety of skins for different portions of the
wiki.  I've been able to implement new features fairly quickly and
easily.

Laura

Laura Pope Robbins
Associate Professor/Reference Librarian
Dowling College Library

Phone: 631.244.5023
Fax: 631.244.3374

A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its
edge.  --Tyrion Lannister in A Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin

On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Katie Filbert filbe...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.


 It's still experimental but the Wikimedia Foundation is developing a visual
 WYSIWYG type editor.

 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor:Sandbox (try it)

 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:VisualEditor

 The goal is to make it easier to edit without the wiki syntax.  There still
 will be an advanced edit option so that people can still use markup if
 they want.

 Cheers,
 Katie Filbert



 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.





 --
 Katie Filbert
 Board member, Wikimedia District of Columbia
 http://wikimediadc.org
 filbe...@gmail.com
 @filbertkm / @wikimediadc


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Sean Hannan
As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I hate
it.

Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any kind
of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If that's the
case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.

I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I ran
into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their issue tracker
for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, generally, and
sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them and it's hard to keep
up. And the longer you wait, the more painful the upgrades become.

I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think that we
do not get what we pay for with Confluence.

-Sean

On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.
 
 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan
 
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 
 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.
 


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Nate Vack
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Sean Hannan shan...@jhu.edu wrote:

 Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any kind
 of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.).

This was the other thing we liked about Apple's Wiki Server -- if you
have local auth working with OS X in general (very straightforward if
you're using OpenDirectory), auth just works with your existing users
and groups.

-n


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Friscia, Michael
An alternative, which could force a different argument, is that we are moving 
away from Confluence to Campus Guides from Springshare. Though I do think 
Confluence is a good product, I might add that I like being able to link it to 
Jira and SVN. Since these don't apply, if your place uses Springshare products, 
it might be worth expanding the usage instead of bringing up another system to 
support. 

___
Michael Friscia
Manager, Digital Library  Programming Services 

Yale University Library
(203) 432-1856


-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Nathan 
Tallman
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 4:34 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
with.

Thanks,
Nathan


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Pottinger, Hardy J.
I'll just say my experience with the Confluence WYSIWYG editor hasn't been
great. Now, partly, that might have been the fact that the one page I
tried using it on had been migrated from another wiki, so, to be fair, the
WYSIWYG editor was being presented with a challenge. But, from a user's
POV, I have to say, editing with a WYSIWYG editor on a wiki is like a
prank waiting for a punch line, and you, the well-meaning user, are the
punch line. If you don't want to be embarrassed, I highly recommend going
advanced mode. :-)

That experience has lead me to approach most WYSIWYG editors with caution.
Don't trust 'em.
--
HARDY POTTINGER pottinge...@umsystem.edu
University of Missouri Library Systems
http://lso.umsystem.edu/~pottingerhj/
https://MOspace.umsystem.edu/
Time and accident are committing daily havoc on the originals of the
valuable historical and State papers deposited in our public offices. The
late war has done the work of centuries in this business. The last cannot
be recovered but let us save what remains not by vaults and locks which
fence them from the public eye and use in consigning them beyond the reach
of accident --Thomas Jefferson





On 7/25/12 8:32 AM, Sean Hannan shan...@jhu.edu wrote:

As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I
hate
it.

Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any
kind
of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If that's the
case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.

I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I ran
into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their issue
tracker
for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, generally, and
sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them and it's hard to
keep
up. And the longer you wait, the more painful the upgrades become.

I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think that we
do not get what we pay for with Confluence.

-Sean

On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when
creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to
use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG
type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.
 
 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan
 
 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:
 
 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.
 


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Cary Gordon
WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.

Cary

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Pottinger, Hardy J.
pottinge...@umsystem.edu wrote:
 I'll just say my experience with the Confluence WYSIWYG editor hasn't been
 great. Now, partly, that might have been the fact that the one page I
 tried using it on had been migrated from another wiki, so, to be fair, the
 WYSIWYG editor was being presented with a challenge. But, from a user's
 POV, I have to say, editing with a WYSIWYG editor on a wiki is like a
 prank waiting for a punch line, and you, the well-meaning user, are the
 punch line. If you don't want to be embarrassed, I highly recommend going
 advanced mode. :-)

 That experience has lead me to approach most WYSIWYG editors with caution.
 Don't trust 'em.
 --
 HARDY POTTINGER pottinge...@umsystem.edu
 University of Missouri Library Systems
 http://lso.umsystem.edu/~pottingerhj/
 https://MOspace.umsystem.edu/
 Time and accident are committing daily havoc on the originals of the
 valuable historical and State papers deposited in our public offices. The
 late war has done the work of centuries in this business. The last cannot
 be recovered but let us save what remains not by vaults and locks which
 fence them from the public eye and use in consigning them beyond the reach
 of accident --Thomas Jefferson





 On 7/25/12 8:32 AM, Sean Hannan shan...@jhu.edu wrote:

As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I
hate
it.

Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any
kind
of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If that's the
case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.

I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I ran
into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their issue
tracker
for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, generally, and
sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them and it's hard to
keep
up. And the longer you wait, the more painful the upgrades become.

I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think that we
do not get what we pay for with Confluence.

-Sean

On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when
creating
 and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people won't want to
use
 it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki with more of a WYSIWYG
type
 of editing interface. Was also hoping to stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I
 should at least peak at Confluence.

 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages,
 it will be very hard to get widespread adoption with it.




-- 
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Joel Marchesoni
+1 to this!

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Cary 
Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 13:14
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.

Cary

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Pottinger, Hardy J.
pottinge...@umsystem.edu wrote:
 I'll just say my experience with the Confluence WYSIWYG editor hasn't 
 been great. Now, partly, that might have been the fact that the one 
 page I tried using it on had been migrated from another wiki, so, to 
 be fair, the WYSIWYG editor was being presented with a challenge. But, 
 from a user's POV, I have to say, editing with a WYSIWYG editor on a 
 wiki is like a prank waiting for a punch line, and you, the 
 well-meaning user, are the punch line. If you don't want to be 
 embarrassed, I highly recommend going advanced mode. :-)

 That experience has lead me to approach most WYSIWYG editors with caution.
 Don't trust 'em.
 --
 HARDY POTTINGER pottinge...@umsystem.edu University of Missouri 
 Library Systems http://lso.umsystem.edu/~pottingerhj/
 https://MOspace.umsystem.edu/
 Time and accident are committing daily havoc on the originals of the 
 valuable historical and State papers deposited in our public offices. 
 The late war has done the work of centuries in this business. The last 
 cannot be recovered but let us save what remains not by vaults and 
 locks which fence them from the public eye and use in consigning them 
 beyond the reach of accident --Thomas Jefferson





 On 7/25/12 8:32 AM, Sean Hannan shan...@jhu.edu wrote:

As an administrator of a Confluence installation, I have to say that I 
hate it.

Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any 
kind of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). If 
that's the case, you should really be looking at the hosted version.

I've found that Atlassian is frustrating to deal with for support. I 
ran into a bug in Confluence that has been an open ticket in their 
issue tracker for 6 years. Years. I've found upgrades to be a pain, 
generally, and sometimes Atlassian will be fast and furious with them 
and it's hard to keep up. And the longer you wait, the more painful 
the upgrades become.

I don't deal with the money side of things, but I definitely think 
that we do not get what we pay for with Confluence.

-Sean

On 7/25/12 9:05 AM, Nathan Tallman ntall...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's what I'm worried about with MediaWiki. The syntax used when 
creating  and editing pages isn't intuitive and I'm afraid people 
won't want to use  it. I was hoping someone would recommend a wiki 
with more of a WYSIWYG type  of editing interface. Was also hoping to 
stick with FLOSS, but perhaps I  should at least peak at Confluence.

 Thanks for the input,
 Nathan

 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu wrote:

 If you're expecting everyone to create and edit pages, it will be 
 very hard to get widespread adoption with it.




--
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Matthew Zimmerman
I worked at one institution where we used Confluence. I liked it as a user, but 
from an admin side it seemed to take a lot of work. You could really do 
fine-grained user management and permissions, but it seemed overkill. What we 
did like, however, was the Jira issue tracking system. 

At my current institution we use Twiki and Bugzilla and everyone seems happy 
with both of them. 

Matt 

- Original Message -

From: Nate Vack njv...@wisc.edu 
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU 
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 10:11:25 AM 
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis 

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Sean Hannan shan...@jhu.edu wrote: 

 Confluence is fine if you are not going to be touching it or doing any kind 
 of local customizations (hooking it into local auth, etc.). 

This was the other thing we liked about Apple's Wiki Server -- if you 
have local auth working with OS X in general (very straightforward if 
you're using OpenDirectory), auth just works with your existing users 
and groups. 

-n 


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-25 Thread Nate Vack
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote:
 WYSIWYG editors are the bane of my existence.

Well... it depends on what you want. If you want clean, valid HTML,
then yes -- WYSIWYG editors are unholy abominations unleashed upon the
earth.

If you want documents to look mostly closely like the author intended,
they're not so bad. Occasionally we need to do a paste it into
Notepad and then back maneuver, but it's rare.

Sometimes people do really, really strange things like pasting an
entire web page or Word document into the Wiki editor. For extra fun,
paste an entire wiki editor into the wiki editor. That's its own
meta-trip.

But the worst case response tends to be How the heck did you do that?
Let's revert that, shall we?

-n


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-24 Thread Stuart Yeates
The wiki software with the largest user base is undoubtedly media wiki (i.e. 
wikiepdia).

We're moving to it as a platform precisely because to leverage the skills that 
implies.

We're not far enough into our roll out to tell whether it's going to be a 
success

cheers
stuart

Stuart Yeates
Library Technology Services http://www.victoria.ac.nz/library/

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Nathan 
Tallman
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 8:34 a.m.
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
with.

Thanks,
Nathan


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-24 Thread Cary Gordon
You might want to look at Atlasssian Confluence. They offer free
licenses to non-profit and edu.

Thanks,

Cary

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Stuart Yeates stuart.yea...@vuw.ac.nz wrote:
 The wiki software with the largest user base is undoubtedly media wiki (i.e. 
 wikiepdia).

 We're moving to it as a platform precisely because to leverage the skills 
 that implies.

 We're not far enough into our roll out to tell whether it's going to be a 
 success

 cheers
 stuart

 Stuart Yeates
 Library Technology Services http://www.victoria.ac.nz/library/

 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of 
 Nathan Tallman
 Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 8:34 a.m.
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

 There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
 recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
 curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
 practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
 with.

 Thanks,
 Nathan



-- 
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-24 Thread Friscia, Michael
I would second this, for the use you describe, it seems like the simplest 
option. 

___
Michael Friscia
Manager, Digital Library  Programming Services
Yale University Library
(203) 432-1856

From: Code for Libraries [CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] on behalf of Cary Gordon 
[listu...@chillco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:33 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

You might want to look at Atlasssian Confluence. They offer free
licenses to non-profit and edu.

Thanks,

Cary

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Stuart Yeates stuart.yea...@vuw.ac.nz wrote:
 The wiki software with the largest user base is undoubtedly media wiki (i.e. 
 wikiepdia).

 We're moving to it as a platform precisely because to leverage the skills 
 that implies.

 We're not far enough into our roll out to tell whether it's going to be a 
 success

 cheers
 stuart

 Stuart Yeates
 Library Technology Services http://www.victoria.ac.nz/library/

 -Original Message-
 From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of 
 Nathan Tallman
 Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 8:34 a.m.
 To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
 Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

 There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
 recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
 curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
 practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
 with.

 Thanks,
 Nathan



--
Cary Gordon
The Cherry Hill Company
http://chillco.com


Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-24 Thread Dhanushka Samarakoon
Confluence is free for non-profits, but for academics they charge a reduced
fee.
http://www.atlassian.com/licensing/confluence

If you just want a basic wiki mediawiki would work, but for more elaborated
access control (and other features) Confluence would be better.

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Cary Gordon listu...@chillco.com wrote:

 You might want to look at Atlasssian Confluence. They offer free
 licenses to non-profit and edu.

 Thanks,

 Cary

 On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Stuart Yeates stuart.yea...@vuw.ac.nz
 wrote:
  The wiki software with the largest user base is undoubtedly media wiki
 (i.e. wikiepdia).
 
  We're moving to it as a platform precisely because to leverage the
 skills that implies.
 
  We're not far enough into our roll out to tell whether it's going to be
 a success
 
  cheers
  stuart
 
  Stuart Yeates
  Library Technology Services http://www.victoria.ac.nz/library/
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of
 Nathan Tallman
  Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 8:34 a.m.
  To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
  Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis
 
  There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
  recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
  curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
  practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
  with.
 
  Thanks,
  Nathan



 --
 Cary Gordon
 The Cherry Hill Company
 http://chillco.com



Re: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

2012-07-24 Thread Gary Thompson
We are very happy with Confluence at UCLA.  It supports the wiki 
metaphor of a pool of labeled/tagged documents with a hierarchical 
directory-like structure, so you don't have to choose between the two 
models.  Although I usually edit pages in the wiki markup view, many of 
our users prefer the very friendly gui.


Academic pricing is 50% of the regular license for a local version. If 
you want to avoid the effort of administering your own server, you can 
sign up for Altassian's hosted service called On-Demand, although I'm 
not sure if the discount applies.


--Gary

--
-- Gary Thompson
-- Development Supervisor
-- UCLA Library Information Technology
-- 390 Powell
-- voice: 310.206.5652
--


On 7/24/2012 3:33 PM, Cary Gordon wrote:

You might want to look at Atlasssian Confluence. They offer free
licenses to non-profit and edu.

Thanks,

Cary

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Stuart Yeates stuart.yea...@vuw.ac.nz wrote:

The wiki software with the largest user base is undoubtedly media wiki (i.e. 
wikiepdia).

We're moving to it as a platform precisely because to leverage the skills that 
implies.

We're not far enough into our roll out to tell whether it's going to be a 
success

cheers
stuart

Stuart Yeates
Library Technology Services http://www.victoria.ac.nz/library/

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU] On Behalf Of Nathan 
Tallman
Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2012 8:34 a.m.
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: [CODE4LIB] Wikis

There are a plethora of options for wiki software. Does anyone have any
recommendations for a platform that's easy-to-use and has a low-learning
curve for users? I'm thinking of starting a wiki for internal best
practices, etc. and wondered what people who've done the same had success
with.

Thanks,
Nathan