Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-30 Thread Ross Singer
So hey, I'm nobody wanted to see this thread revived, but I'm hoping you info uri folks can clear something up for me. So I'm trying to gather together a vocabulary of identifiers to unambiguously describe the format of the data you would be getting in a Jangle feed or an UnAPI response (or any

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-30 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com Except that OpenURL and SRU /already use different info URIs to describe the same things/. info:srw/schema/1/marcxml-v1.1 info:ofi/fmt:xml:xsd:MARC21 or info:srw/schema/1/onix-v2.0 info:ofi/fmt:xml:xsd:onix What is the rationale for this? None.

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-16 Thread Mike Taylor
Jonathan Rochkind writes: There are trade-offs. I think a lot of that TAG stuff privileges the theoretically pure over the on the ground practicalities. They've got a great fantasy in their heads of what the semantic web _could_ be, and I agree it's theoretically sound and _could_ be;

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-15 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Alexander Johannesen wrote: I think you are quite mistaken on this, but before we leap into wheter the web is suitable for SuDoc I'd rather point out that SuDoc isn't web friendly in itself, and *that* more than anything stands in the way of using them with the web. It stands in the way of

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-15 Thread Alexander Johannesen
Hiya, On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 01:10, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: It stands in the way of using them in the fully realized sem web vision. Ok, I'm puzzled. How? As the SemWeb vision is all about first-order logic over triplets, and the triplets are defined as URIs, if you can pop

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
[alexander.johanne...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:27 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Hiya, Been meaning to jump into this discussion for a while, but I've been off to an alternative

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu The difference between URIs and URLs? I don't believe that URL is something that exists any more in any standard, it's all URIs. The URL is alive and well. The W3C definition, http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ a URL is a type of URI that

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Alexander Johannesen
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 23:34, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: The difference between URIs and URLs?  I don't believe that URL is something that exists any more in any standard, it's all URIs. Correct me if I'm wrong. Sure it exists: URLs are a subset of URIs. URLs are locators as

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
[alexander.johanne...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:48 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 23:34, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: The difference between URIs

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Thanks Ray. By that definition ALL http URIs are URLs, a priori. I read Alexander as trying to make a different distinction. Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote: From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu The difference between URIs and URLs? I don't believe that URL is something

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:21 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50-2006-08- 17.html They suggest: URI opacity'Agents making use of URIs SHOULD NOT attempt to infer properties of the referenced resource.' I understand why

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Joe Atzberger
Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:21 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50-2006-08- 17.html They suggest: URI opacity

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-14 Thread Alexander Johannesen
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 00:20, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: Can you show me where this definition of a URL vs. a URI is made in any RFC or standard-like document? From http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html ; 1.1.3. URI, URL, and URN A URI can be further classified as a

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-10 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) An account that has a depressing ring of accuracy to it. Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress writes: You're right, if there were a web: URI scheme, the world would be a better place. But it's

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-07 Thread Eric Hellman
no, that's not at all what it implies. the ofi/name identifiers were minted as identifiers for namespaces of indentifiers, not as a wrapper scheme for the identifiers themselves. Yes, it's a bit TOO meta, but they can be safely ignored unless a new profile is desired. On Apr 5, 2009, at

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-06 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Karen Coyle wrote: The ones that really puzzle me, however, are the OpenURL info namespace URIs for ftp, http, https and info. This implies that EVERY identifier used by OpenURL needs an info URI, even if it is a URI in its own right. They are under info:ofi/nam which is called Namespace

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
, April 01, 2009 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Ray, you are absolutely right. These would be bad identifiers. But let's say they're all identical (which I think is what you're saying, right?), then this just strengthens

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:59 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) We do just

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:26 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) This really puzzles me, because I

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:41 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) I have to say I am suspicious

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Mike Taylor
Houghton,Andrew writes: I have to say I am suspicious of schemes like PURL, which for all their good points introduce a single point of failure into, well, everything that uses them. That can't be good. Especially as it's run by the same compary that also runs the often-unavailable

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Karen Coyle
Houghton,Andrew wrote: RFC 3986 (URI generic syntax) says that http: is a URI scheme not a protocol. Just because it says http people make all kinds of assumptions about type of use, persistence, resolvability, etc. And RFC 2616 (Hypertext transfer protocol) says: The HTTP protocol is a

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Mike Taylor
Houghton,Andrew writes: I have to say I am suspicious of schemes like PURL, which for all their good points introduce a single point of failure into, well, everything that uses them. That can't be good. Especially as it's run by the same compary that also runs the

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Karen Coyle
Houghton,Andrew wrote: OK, good, then if you are concerned about the PURL services SPOF, take the freely available PURL software and created a distributed PURL based system and put it up for the community. I think several people have looked at this, but I have not heard of any progress or

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:15 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Houghton,Andrew wrote: RFC 3986

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Mike Taylor
Karen Coyle writes: OK, good, then if you are concerned about the PURL services SPOF, take the freely available PURL software and created a distributed PURL based system and put it up for the community. I think several people have looked at this, but I have not heard of any

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-02 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:47:50 +0100, Mike Taylor wrote: Erik Hetzner writes: Without external knowledge that info:doi/10./xxx is a URI, I can only guess. Yes, that is true. The point is that by specifying that the rft_id has to be a URI, you can then use other kinds of URI without

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:26 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Mike Taylor
Message - From: Houghton,Andrew hough...@oclc.org To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-02 Thread Erik Hetzner
Hi Ray - At Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:48:19 -0400, Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote: You're right, if there were a web: URI scheme, the world would be a better place. But it's not, and the world is worse off for it. Well, the original concept of the ‘web’ was, as I understand it, to

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-02 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Rob Sanderson wrote: info URIs, In My Opinion, are ideally suited for long term identifiers of non information resources. But http URIs are definitely better than something which isn't a URI at all. Through this discussion I am clarifying my thoughts on this too. I feel that info URIs are

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-02 Thread Ross Singer
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: Note this isn't as much of a problem for born web resources -- nobody's going to accidentally create an alternate URI for a dbpedia term, because anybody that knows about dbpedia knows that it lives at dbpedia. Unless

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-02 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:29:49 +0100, Rob Sanderson wrote: All I meant by that was that the info:doi/ URI is more informative as to what the identifier actually is than just the doi by itself, which could be any string. Equally, if I saw an SRW info URI like:

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Ed Summers
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 6:14 AM, Mike Taylor m...@indexdata.com wrote: As usual, an ounce of example is worth a ton of exposition, so: Suppose I always keep a PDF of my latest paper at        http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/latest.pdf for the benefit of people who want to keep an eye on my

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Keith Jenkins
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Mike Taylor m...@indexdata.com wrote: Worse, consider how the actionable-identifier approach would translate to other non-actionable identifiers like ISBNs.  If I offer the non-actionable identifier        info:isbn/025490 which identified Farlow and

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:38 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Ross Singer writes: I suppose my point is, there's a valid case for identifiers like

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Rob Sanderson
On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 14:17 +0100, Mike Taylor wrote: Ed Summers writes: Assuming a world where you cannot de-reference this DOI what is it good for? It wouldn't be good for much if you couldn't dereference it at all. The point is that (I argue) the identifier shouldn't tie itself to a

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Mike Taylor
Houghton,Andrew writes: The point is that (I argue) the identifier shouldn't tie itself to a particular dereferencing mechanism (such as dx.doi.org, or amazon.com) but should be dereferenced by software that knows what's the most appropriate dereferencing mechanism _for you_ in your

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Eric Hellman
I'll bite. There are actually a number of http URLs that work like http://dx.doi.org/10./j.1475-4983.2007.00728.x One of them is http://doi.wiley.com/10./j.1475-4983.2007.00728.x Another is run by crossref; Some OpenURL ink servers also have doi proxy capability. So for code to

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:35 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Houghton,Andrew writes: So creating an info URI for it is meaningless, it's just

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Hellman Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:51 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? There are actually a number of http URLs that work like http://dx.doi.org/10./j

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Mike Taylor
Houghton,Andrew writes: From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Hellman Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:51 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? There are actually a number of http URLs that work

[CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Houghton,Andrew wrote: Lets separate your argument into two pieces. Identification and resolution. The DOI is the identifier and it inherently doesn't tie itself to any resolution mechanism. So creating an info URI for it is meaningless, it's just another alias for the DOI. I can create an

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Jon
, April 01, 2009 9:51 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? There are actually a number of http URLs that work like http://dx.doi.org/10./j.1475-4983.2007.00728.x One of them is http://doi.wiley.com/10./j.1475-4983.2007.00728.x Another is run

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Houghton,Andrew wrote: From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:08 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) Houghton,Andrew wrote

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Ross Singer
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote: I admit that httprange-14 still confuses me. (I have no idea why it's called httprange-14 for one thing). http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14 Some background:

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Houghton,Andrew hough...@oclc.org The point being that: urn:doi:* info:doi:* provide no advantages over: http://doi.org/* I think they do. I realize this is pretty much a dead-end debate as everyone has dug themselves into a position and nobody is going to change their mind. It is

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:17 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Houghton,Andrew writes: Again we have moved the discussion to a specific resolution

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
I completely disagree. There are all sorts of useful identifiers I use in my work every day that can not be automatically dereferenced. Jonathan Ed Summers wrote: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Mike Taylor m...@indexdata.com wrote: It wouldn't be good for much if you couldn't

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Ross Singer
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: But shouldn't we be able to know the difference between an identifier and a locator? Isn't that the problem here? That you don't know which it is if it starts with http://. But you do if it starts with http://dx.doi.org I

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu There are all sorts of useful identifiers I use in my work every day that can not be automatically dereferenced. Even more to the point: there is no sound definition of dereference. To dereference a resource means to retrieve a representation of it.

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Karen Coyle
Ross Singer wrote: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: But shouldn't we be able to know the difference between an identifier and a locator? Isn't that the problem here? That you don't know which it is if it starts with http://. But you do if it starts

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:06 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?) The general convention is that http

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Ed Summers
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress r...@loc.gov wrote: Even more to the point: there is no sound definition of dereference.  To dereference a resource means to retrieve a representation of it. There has never been any agreement within the w3c of what constitutes

Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)

2009-04-01 Thread Ross Singer
My point is that I don't see how they're different in practice. And one of them actually allowed you to do something from your email client. -Ross. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote: Ross, I don't get your point. My point was about the confusion between two

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-04-01 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:34:45 +0100, Mike Taylor wrote: Not quite. Embedding a DOI in an info URI (or a URN) means that the identifier describes its own type. If you just get the naked string 10./j.1475-4983.2007.00728.x passed to you, say as an rft_id in an OpenURL, then you can't

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-31 Thread Ross Singer
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Mike Taylor m...@indexdata.com wrote: Identifiers identify; locations locate. I've been avoiding and ignoring this all day, because I wanted the thread to die and we all move on with our lives. But Kevin Clarke just quoted this on Twitter, and I felt I couldn't

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:56:42 -0400, Ross Singer wrote: So, in a what is probably a vain attempt to put this debate to rest, I created a partial redirect PURL for sudoc: http://purl.org/NET/sudoc/ If you pass it any urlencoded sudoc string, you'll be redirected to the GPO's Aleph catalog

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Erik Hetzner erik.hetz...@ucop.edu I believe that registering a domain would be less work than going through an info URI registration process, but I don’t know how difficult the info URI registration process would be (thus bringing the conversation full circle). [1] Leaving aside

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Houghton,Andrew wrote: From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 6:09 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? If GPO had a system where I could resolve Sudoc identifiers

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
I think this is a good point. Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote: From: Erik Hetzner erik.hetz...@ucop.edu I believe that registering a domain would be less work than going through an info URI registration process, but I don’t know how difficult the info URI registration process

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
So is there anything wrong with having both that http-based PURL URI available, AND an info uri? Not only available, but in common use? It gets complicated thinking about these things. There are potentially several things wrong with it. Jonathan Ross Singer wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Mike Taylor
Jonathan Rochkind writes: So is there anything wrong with having both that http-based PURL URI available, AND an info uri? Not only available, but in common use? Yes, of course! You don't want _two_ vocabularies of URIs for SUDOCs! _/|_

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ross Singer
There should be no issue with having both, mainly because like I mentioned earlier, nobody cares about info:uris. Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see in the wild? Do you ever see info:uris (except in OpenURLs)? If you don't see http://dx.doi.org/ URIs you generally see doi:10... URIs.

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Rob Sanderson
On Mon, 2009-03-30 at 16:08 +0100, Ross Singer wrote: There should be no issue with having both, mainly because like I mentioned earlier, nobody cares about info:uris. s/nobody cares/the web doesn't care/ 'The Web' isn't the only use case. There are plenty of reasons for having non

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ross Singer
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress r...@loc.gov wrote: Nor do people outside of libraries care about identifiers. Except, of course, for Tim Berners-Lee and anybody who listens to him: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html -Ross.

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com nobody gives a damn about info:uris outside of libraries, Nor do people outside of libraries care about identifiers. --Ray

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Mike Taylor
Ross Singer writes: There should be no issue with having both, mainly because like I mentioned earlier, nobody cares about info:uris. Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see in the wild? Do you ever see info:uris (except in OpenURLs)? If you don't see http://dx.doi.org/ URIs you

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ross Singer
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Rob Sanderson azar...@liverpool.ac.uk wrote: If you want an identifier that *explicitly* cannot be dereferenced, then info URIs are a good choice.  If you want one that can be dereferenced to some representation of the identified object, then HTTP is the only

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Because the ability to de-reference seems to be the main reason to use an HTTP URI as an identifier, and the main reason that some people prefer an HTTP URI as an identifier to an info: URI. Jonathan Mike Taylor wrote: Ross Singer writes: There should be no issue with having both, mainly

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Mike Taylor
Jonathan Rochkind writes: Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see in the wild? Do you ever see info:uris (except in OpenURLs)? If you don't see http://dx.doi.org/ URIs you generally see doi:10... URIs. It seems like having http and info URIs would *have* to be fine, since

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
This is a long argument that's been going on in other communities for a long time, Mike. I can see both sides. Jonathan Mike Taylor wrote: Jonathan Rochkind writes: Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see in the wild? Do you ever see info:uris (except in OpenURLs)? If you

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Mike Taylor
Houghton,Andrew writes: Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see in the wild? Do you ever see info:uris (except in OpenURLs)? If you don't see http://dx.doi.org/ URIs you generally see doi:10... URIs. It seems like having http and info URIs would *have* to be fine,

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:30 AM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Ross Singer writes: There should be no issue with having both, mainly because like I mentioned earlier, nobody cares about info:uris. Take, for instance, DOIs. What do you see

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Taylor Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:15 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? The problem is that, after setting up a non-dereferencable http: URI to name something

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:16 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Some hints of the existing argument in other forums can be found in this post

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:12:39 -0400, Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote: Leaving aside religious issues I just want to be sure we're clear on one point: the work required for the info URI process is exactly the amount of work required, no more no less. It forces you to specify clear

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ross Singer
I agree with this as well. I guess it just depends on whether you think this needs to be done prior to facitating the process to mint URIs or after. The advantage to the former is that it will actually get documented. Speaking of, if anybody wants to help formalize this for the purl method,

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
for these identifiers. Jonathan Houghton,Andrew wrote: From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:16 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Some hints of the existing argument in other

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Hilmar Lapp
On Mar 30, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote: From: Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com nobody gives a damn about info:uris outside of libraries, Nor do people outside of libraries care about identifiers. You might be surprised: http://www.lsrn.org/ -hilmar

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:58:04 -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: It's interesting that there are at least three, if not four, viewpoints being represented in this conversation. The first argument is over whether all identifiers should be resolvable or not. While I respect the argument that

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
From: Hilmar Lapp hl...@duke.edu Nor do people outside of libraries care about identifiers. You might be surprised: http://www.lsrn.org/ yes, I overstated, let me rephrase. There are communities who are interested in specific object classes and want identifier schemes for them. For

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Erik Hetzner wrote: I don’t actually think that there is anybody who is arguing that all identifiers must be resolvable. There are people who argue that there are identifiers which must NOT be resolvable; at least in their basic form. (see Stuart Weibel [1]). There are indeed people

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:52 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? But when did someone suggest that all identifiers must be resolvable? When Andrew

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:52 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? But when did someone suggest that all identifiers must be resolvable? When Andrew argued that: Having unresolvable URIs is anti-Web since the Web is a hypertext system where links

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-30 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:52:10 -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: Erik Hetzner wrote: I don’t actually think that there is anybody who is arguing that all identifiers must be resolvable. There are people who argue that there are identifiers which must NOT be resolvable; at least in their

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
Thanks Ray. Oh boy, I don't know enough about SuDoc to describe the syntax rules fully. I can spend some more time with the SuDoc documentation (written for a pre-computer era) and try to figure it out, or do the best I can. I mean, the info registration can clearly point to the existing

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Thanks Ray. Oh boy, I don't know enough about SuDoc to describe the syntax rules fully. I can spend some more time with the SuDoc documentation (written

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:36:43 -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: Thanks Ray. Oh boy, I don't know enough about SuDoc to describe the syntax rules fully. I can spend some more time with the SuDoc documentation (written for a pre-computer era) and try to figure it out, or do the best I can.

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
- From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Thanks Ray. Oh boy, I don't know enough about SuDoc to describe the syntax rules fully. I can spend some more time with the SuDoc

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
I am looking for the easiest possible way to get a legal URI representing a sudoc. My understanding, after looking at this stuff previously, is that info: is a LOT lower barrier than urn:, and that's part of it's purpose. Before Ed or someone else mentions http, to me, using http: URIs would

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
27, 2009 4:42 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? I am looking for the easiest possible way to get a legal URI representing a sudoc. My understanding, after looking at this stuff previously, is that info: is a LOT lower barrier than urn:, and that's

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
, March 27, 2009 4:52 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Also, the date aspect of a tag-uri seems to make it hard to use to mint an identifier that will always represent the same SuDoc, regardless of when it was minted. No the date part

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:00 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Aha, cool! Yeah, I could use tag for this, but it wouldn't seem appropriate

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:28 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Another good idea, true. There are indeed lots of ways to do this. But wait, you

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
to this is very useful. --Ray - Original Message - From: Houghton,Andrew hough...@oclc.org To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Houghton,Andrew
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:38 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of all this to be able

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:18:24 -0400, Jonathan Rochkind wrote: I am not interested in maintaining a sudoc.info registration, and neither is my institution, who I wouldn't trust to maintain it (even to the extent of not letting the DNS registration expire) after I left. I think even

Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?

2009-03-27 Thread Jonathan Rochkind
persistent URIs for sudoc's in the first place, right? Houghton,Andrew wrote: From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rochkind Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:28 PM To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] registering info: uris? Another good idea

  1   2   >