RE: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
Noel J. Bergman wrote: Dave Brondsema wrote: Where are the sources for the mail script and dev/ files? Should I send patches to the infrastructure issue tracker? dev/ is in the site module, which should be available for anonymous checkout. It is also visible via viewcvs. The script is in the infrastructure area of SVN, and I don't believe that it is visible via viewcvs, although I just don't have time to look right now. Are there any guidelines about what is too private to put on the web at dev/? E.g., listing the committer-only mailing lists. You mean the ones just enumerated here on a publicly archived list? ;-) ;-) oops. So on what list can all committers discuss issues without fear of spilling the beans about something that is not yet decided by ASF? I'm not sure if there is anything that shouldn't be listed. At worst, it would be a nuisance for moderators. We shouldn't be doing security by obscurity, right? But perhaps there are some items that just aren't coming to mind. See what others have to say. This privacy issue concerned me too. That is why i started the list at cvs://committers/docs/resources.txt and referred to it at dev/committers.html My approach was to get as much as possible on the /dev/ pages. However, i wasn't sure about letting the general public know about the existence of the internal lists. -- David Crossley - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: snip content=appreciated / If you believed in the technology, the brand should not care. I think this is probably the best advice I have gotten all week. Seriously! And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about community-style, you just look the other way. Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself, Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at your own nose first, is my motto. Tell me: what would *you* do in my shoes? Well, that is a highly hypothetical question, isn't it? I am not the master creator of communities, who take pride in stepping away when he thinks he is an obstacle to the community, yet steps back in and with 'determination' sets 'half paralyzed' projects back on track. YOU are really good at it, so what would I know of what to do in this situation? I am a simple man, who likes to chitchat over a beer in an Irish Pub, or as a poor man's substitute for airtickets, ICQ, and would probably spend more time with people at a social level, accepting that all are not equal and not expecting big changes from them, than re-iteration of rhetoric. Even people I don't like can teach me something positive. And often people I don't like at first (like my wife) can be much more genuine than first impression, or what is expressed in fruitless debates and flamefests. What would I do? Perhaps provide some better guidance of how to make things better and less critique of what's wrong? But then I again, I am not in your shoes, and most likely never will be. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 J.Pietschmann wrote: | Santiago Gala wrote: | | I plan to update it as soon as I find a way to make xplanet generate | coordinates for an imagemap, so that it can be indexed by robot, | scraped, etc. | | | The -markerbounds filename option should write box coordinates | to a file, according to the readme. Never tried it myself though. | It is the -markerfile file option what disappeared between versions. This is where the markers will be stored. the code is at cvs:committers/krell But I'm finding more promising the WMS approach from Dirk-Willem than my hack. Regards Santiago | J.Pietschmann | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFBWnBPZAeG2a2/nhoRAruWAKDMcZ2TyNzrcYDYS0I7SB946IhsVgCg4tjo RzCR7w4YySRl+T0nf1bTfXc= =6Pyp -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On 29 Sep 2004, at 00:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: the Lenya people went thru hell and back with the incubator, also accepting policies that were continously changing, demonstrating lots of patience and will to collaborate, they hang on, even when it was frustrating and *I* was pissed at the incubator PMC for not saying the same thing the same week. They had big customers, they risked their assets in the event of a 'death sentence' (a real one) and they made several big mistakes that forced the mentors to get in and say look, one other thing like this and you are out. They learned, they stimulated a community, which is now diverse, friendly and healthy from all possible senses and even ego attachments to some of the architectural issues were diluted in the process and there is no more sign of that. Result, a long time after that, they graduated. They *earned it*. The hard way, now they are trusted peers. To put things in perspective: I was one of the folks giving them hard times at regular occasions. I also became a de-facto Mentor during their Incubation process. I'm a member of their TLP PMC now - upon their own request. And in terms of bias, my company happens to be releasing a somehow competing open source CMS framework in the next few weeks. So what we have now is a bunch of people who are willing to collaborate, even if personal or business interests differ, for the good of the community. Yes, we had times where people grew increasingly weary over all the fuzz ASF was requiring from them. But we choose to leave these times behind and look into the future instead. Lenya will probably have outlived the longest incubation process ever, and I think everyone learned from it. Looking at your replies, I still have difficulties to understand your real intentions and real feelings towards the ASF processes and participants. I see a great care about your technology, of which I'm a happy user, which however somehow is dwarfed by your nits about ASF community practices and people - yet you seem to be very eager to provide Metro with the ASF brand. However, please don't forget that the foundation is growing at ever accelerating rates, with 1K of committers so far, close to 200 separate source repositories, close to 30 TLPs - yet you encounter the same policy-suggesting people everywhere. That means patience of people can grow thin quickly if they need to make exceptions for new projects with new policies - which unfortunately is the result of our current size. It is not in the interest of the foundation to provide said brand to a project which doesn't like to fit in somehow, which doesn't respect what we have achieved so far, and which doesn't respect its (inter-)project peers and senior participants of Apache, and feels cornered at the same time, _even_ if that project has a compelling technical vision. I'm not saying you or other Metro folks have intentions to follow or stay on a collision course any longer, I'm just trying to point you out what the logical consequences are when someone wants to join a group. One should give and take with consideration and balance. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 17:55, Steven Noels wrote: snip content=good material / One should give and take with consideration and balance. Noted and Agreed. AND respectfully wished this would be true in all directions. I have also lately been made aware of actions that I do not comprehend, and will politely refrain from any further public debate in the ASF political arena. I am probably just another idiot. Please, ignore me, I have caused too much aggrevation, and withstood too much humiliation, for/from this community, so I ashamefully withdraw back under my rock and get on with better things in life, like getting a great product through the door... Cheers Niclas Hedhman - - - - - If you shout loud enough, noone will hear you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On 29 Sep 2004, at 12:19, Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Wednesday 29 September 2004 17:55, Steven Noels wrote: snip content=good material / One should give and take with consideration and balance. Noted and Agreed. AND respectfully wished this would be true in all directions. I'm confident that people still have positive energy left for a productive and future-looking debate resolution of this matter. I'm also confident that suggesting this is _not_ the case isn't helping you nor us. Speak freely without doublespeak and anyone gets to be heard. Heck, the changed tone of this thread even convinced myself that I still had some patience to look for a resolution. If you shout loud enough, noone will hear you. *grin* Please keep in mind that going silent now will require your peers to speak up or else people will move along - nothing here (anymore). /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about community-style, you just look the other way. Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself, Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at your own nose first, is my motto. the cases are not parallel. the fact that someone has behaved incorrectly does not provide licence for others to do so as well. the 'he did it first' defence does not wash. the cases are not parallel. in this case, stefano is not *just* a peer; he is also someone to whom the projects and individuals are answerable, as a member and director of the foundation. perhaps there was insufficient context in stefano's remark; i myself am not sure precisely to what he is referring. however, your response did not address his remark either way. 'not been interested in history': have you never heard that 'those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it' ? how are lessons to be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions? - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ Millennium hand and shrimp! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQVqZu5rNPMCpn3XdAQGCNgP+PZU4aFa6cbnXzHeybwd1XDlskpUbUvD3 d7tORRb4tgRb2fJOjaYSvMrHfEXXn675wmT3vRgQ4LzXfKAbjJfUhurgFy4Y7K3u EXFXp4qUAvrq1QwfHxv/b+kInHgP/zu5IWaVZy+z5EWEXnpqc1RrzR0qL7v5NywK 1CHBXmKRILo= =GhQn -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Style of community building
-Original Message- From: Rodent of Unusual Size [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 September 2004 13:17 To: community@apache.org Subject: Re: Style of community building snip ... how are lessons to be learnt is not from examining past situations and their resolutions? Have a few thoughts I put together which examine the past situation as part of my reply to a public post from Stefano over on the dev mailing list. Seems to me that there maybe something in it that is relevant to the subject of community building (or at least some of the aspect of social and group rules that play into community evolution). http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-devm=109645485530289w=4 Stephen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
