Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
FWIW I think that an ASF wide i18n project is a good idea but I think that to be a success it must focus on being platform independent from the get-go, not do as others have done and start with Java then try to adapt to other languages... Also it should probably go via the incubator as I doubt it'll stand a chance of going straight in as a top level project. Why do you think we don't welcome people from all over the world presently? david - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:46:27 +0100 (Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject) David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW I think that an ASF wide i18n project is a good idea but I think that to be a success it must focus on being platform independent from the get-go, not do as others have done and start with Java then try to adapt to other languages... Sure. The precursor is HTTPD-DOCS project, i think. cf. http://httpd.apache.org/docs-project/ If possible, i want this project to come to i18n (TLP) first... Reorganization. Also it should probably go via the incubator as I doubt it'll stand a chance of going straight in as a top level project. IMO, i18n issue should be the ASF-wide, and no need for incubator project. I am afraid there are few veteran about 18n issue in incubator members. And, to tell the truth, the Robert Simpson's initial proposal (codebase) will directly go to i18n TLP or be incubated **after** the i18n TLP launch out. Why do you think we don't welcome people from all over the world presently? Nice question. Very very nice. I, personally, do not think the ASF do not welcome people from all over the world relatively. However, there might be more *rooms* of the ASF to give the *sign* that the ASF is welcoming people from all over the world. -- 1. Imagine that there are few *language specific* mailing list in apache.org. i18n TLP can (I think) arrange the language specific mailing list properly. ... How about [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?? .. where I can talk the general issues on jakarta in my native language (japanese) 2. Of course, I know that there are many people who claim, Hey, my patch was ignored!, without the esteem for the committers. However, I also know many patches, which are worthy, from the people in Asian country had been ignored and they'd come to shut up their mouths. In Asia, especially Korea, China and Japan, there are a lot of jakarta (and other products under ASL) users, however, there seem few feedback to the ASF from them, even though we take account of the *english barrier*. Why? .. They feel that it is easier to contribute to *ASF mirrored sites* (users/dev communities in their native languages) than *ASF itself*. Or, *just thank to the ASF and use for themselves* syndrome. 3. As for language specific mailing list goes, Brian once said, I think it would bring non-English-speaking communities closer to the ASF, rather than encourage them to set up their own islands., when I proposed the creation of [japan]-ML *in* apache.org If i18n TLP launched out, I think these kind of 'language-specific-mailnglist' can reside inside the i18n TLP. 4. Today, the ASF can not evaluate the activities outside of the ASF (ASF mirrored) because we can not understand foreign languages. But, I think ASF mirrored contribution should be evaluated properly by the ASF and we should appraise their activities. i18n TLP can provide the ROOMs for us to evaluate the *right*/*active* persons. -- Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[i18n] Internationalization project
To: Community@Apache.org On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the ultimate goal. So, in summary, the organization of the project would be: 1. code common to both (1) and (2) 1.1 code This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code to do comparisons between translations 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc) 1.1.2 Java 1.1.2.1 source code 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers) 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases) 2.1 code
Re: Apache Newsletter [Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9 -- May-June 2003]
Mads Toftum wrote, On 11/07/2003 18.53: ... I like the idea of a (bi-)monthly newsletter, but I'd hate to see it being forced on people who didn't want it. Are there a lot of people here on community@apache.org that not want to know, or even care, of what is happening in Apache-land? Oh well... -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache Newsletter [Re: Jakarta Newsletter Issue 9 -- May-June 2003]
On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 11:01:16AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Mads Toftum wrote, On 11/07/2003 18.53: ... I like the idea of a (bi-)monthly newsletter, but I'd hate to see it being forced on people who didn't want it. Are there a lot of people here on community@apache.org that not want to know, or even care, of what is happening in Apache-land? Oh well... Taken out of context - I was replying to the idea of sending it on announce@ I'd much prefer having a www.apache.org/news/ with a list to subscribe to, rss feeds and such, and thus not really seeing the need to get it here also, but thats nothing my procmail can't handle, so do whatever you like. vh Mads Toftum -- `Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
-1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: Community@Apache.org On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the ultimate goal. So, in summary, the organization of the project would be: 1. code common to both (1) and (2) 1.1 code This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code to do comparisons between translations 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
David. Robert (Simpson) is not trying to recruit the guys to jakarta-general. Never. Never. Never. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. Rather, from jakarta-general to community@, i think - On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100 (Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project) David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :) - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ (Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese) http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
