Re: The Opposite of Incubator
On Tuesday 04 May 2004 22:04, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: JServ is, for example, in dead from a community point of view, yet many people use it in production. JServ is now located at archive.apache.org. I am one of them :o) (Great product - right size!) If the avalon project feels like discontinuing phoenix, I think you just require a PMC vote and then require infrastructure to seal the CVS repository and put it in the archive. Thanks for the pointer... Cheers Niclas -- +-//---+ | http://www.bali.ac | | http://niclas.hedhman.org | +--//--+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CVS and Subversion
On Friday 11 June 2004 21:02, Jim Moore wrote: Actually, the all or nothing part of the transaction isn't a big deal because, as you said, it's very rare that a commit in CVS would fail. But I often change my mind half way through... (lazy thought-loading), Ctrl-C, and CVS is 'half way through' . Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CVS and Subversion
On Friday 11 June 2004 18:17, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On a positive note; do look at subversion; play with it - and note that its modern infrastructure and standard based protocols do allow for levels of integration previously hard to attain. Another note that noone seems to consider, which I think is fairly important (read annoying); Subversion eats almost all CPU cycles on a 2.4 Linux Kernel, on updates and commits. Often so much that even the mouse is no longer tracking, and always making my entire desktop fairly unresponsive. And for Avalon that means ~1minute on my system (svn up)... Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CVS and Subversion
On Friday 11 June 2004 23:23, Niclas Hedhman wrote: Subversion eats almost all CPU cycles on a 2.4 Linux Kernel, on updates and commits. Am I the only one who have this problem??? I am only using SVN CLI. [EMAIL PROTECTED] niclas]$ uname -a Linux f2.hedhman.org 2.4.20-20.9 #1 Mon Aug 18 11:45:58 EDT 2003 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux I have 2 ATA disks on the primary controller, and they are mirrored with SoftRAID. No other software I have, shows this type of lock-up, unless running out of RAM and thrashing starts, in fact SVN behaves exactly like thrashing came into the picture. Could that be the case??? I got 512MB and 'on a regular day' top would report something like; 01:56:59 up 2 days, 20:42, 13 users, load average: 2.05, 0.97, 0.79 101 processes: 94 sleeping, 7 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped CPU states: 2.3% user 3.7% system 0.0% nice 0.0% iowait 93.8% idle Mem: 513852k av, 507388k used,6464k free, 0k shrd, 69212k buff 384884k actv,1200k in_d, 11024k in_c Swap: 1012072k av, 92016k used, 920056k free 212484k cached (sorry for the bad formatting) Which I interpret that 'cached memory' is plenty and will be released if necessary. Or does the intensive file reads (writes?) upset the Linux algorithm of 'cached' vs 'thrashed' memory? H headache quickly approaching from too much thinking Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do we have a jobs list?
David Crossley wrote: Brian Behlendorf wrote: We don't appear to, but I would be +1 on setting something like this up. Freebsd.org has one, not sure who else might. Setting it up is one thing, but maintaining it and keeping oversight on fake entries, removing old stuff, is the hard part. Couldn't it be delegated down to PMCs and its CVS/SVN repo and the 'system' aggregates or links the content centrally. In that way, each PMC can decide how it should be handled, such as 'committers only', 'after some validation' or 'on request'. By the way, a while ago i stumbled across this and meant to ask what should happen with it ... http://www.apache.org/info/support.cgi The same could be done for this. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do we have a jobs list?
David Crossley wrote: Would that make the PMCs responsible if something went haywire? If so, yikes. Even so, i cannot see that as sustainable. How would the PMCs find the energy to verify that jobs were legitimate? Why can't the PMC be responsible if the committers are the one the place the stuff (I see that all 'content' goes into CVS/SVN). Ultimately, if the PMC/committers doesn't feel the Company listing is 'honorable' and 'legit', it is plainly refused. No need for fair play. Same for 'looking for jobs' or 'contractor available'. It is a guide, and can be dealt by the PMC at their own discretion. If they think it is not worth it, just don't participate and keep their 'segment' in the CVS/SVN empty. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inexpensive Lists
On Thursday 22 July 2004 05:50, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: --On Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:01 PM -0400 Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I completely disagree with this view. I don't see why the ASF *has* to support water-cooler conversations. It just doesn't coincide with our mission. Other people and sites can run them individually outside of the ASF - I've no problem with that *at all*. Excuse me for being naive; What the content is, that travels over the mailing list can hardly be an issue for infrastructure@ to bother about. The amount of mails that are generated here and other so called 'water-cooler conversations' can barely make a dent in the total number of mails being sent. And if 'one more list' is a big thing for infrastructure@ then that is a serious thing that needs to be addressed differently, as ASF will continue to grow substantially over the coming years. As for overview of a non-PMC-related mailing list; What is the big deal with overview, as the subscribers are all ASF committers, and already bound to respect each other. What is there that can possibly be posted that needs 'oversight'?? It is said that ASF is ALL about the Community, not about code., and if you are to live up to that, you must allow for people to 'socialize' and 'share experiences' with fellow ASFers in all aspects of life. That fosters a comradeship and a feeling of being 'part of' a community, not just free labor to forward a codebase. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inexpensive Lists
On Thursday 22 July 2004 14:36, Martin Cooper wrote: Uh, isn't that a bit like asking why we need PMCs to oversee the projects? After all, the only people who can make changes are the committers, and they surely all respect each other, right? ;-) Code can contain legal problems that can be corrected, but what you throw up on the mailing lists goes into archives and burns into eternity. We need to demonstrate legal oversight for the content of the mailing lists just as much as we do the code in CVS / SVN. Please give me a hint on what can be posted on a mailing list, that a PMC can do anything about... Maybe that exists, but I can't imagine it. Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: gmail accounts?
On Monday 16 August 2004 21:07, Greg Stein wrote: A while back, I offered gmail accounts to a number of people when the number of invites that I had was pretty limited. However, I now have unlimited invites... If anybody would like a gmail account, then please reply to me privately and I'll hook you up. I'm happy to provide them to any ASF committer and their family. A It says it requires ActiveX. Is Google now part of the evil empire ?? :o) How about Linux/Unix/MacX users, are we totally left out? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Friday 24 September 2004 15:08, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: People are invited to join the PMC only if other PMC members see their merits and want them to come in, not because there is some rule that sums up the commits done or the length of the emails written. PMC members are there because they earned merit from their peers (not because of rules), and they have all the right to decide for the project. The same applies to the board, as it's an elected selection of members, that are also there only on invitation. That is all well and dandy. But it only reflects the promotion aspect, not the demotion aspect. Example, * if I am voted in as a committer into a project, and then -1 every vote for new committers. Does that quantify as being expelled from the community? If so, roughly how many, if not why not? If you don't understand this, you don't understand Apache. That itself sounds more like communism under Stalin than an open society willing to discuss issues. What I don't understand is why it is such a touchy subject. Why am I not allowed to raise the issue, and get mails privately saying that I am escalating the issue, when asking for clarifications on what constitutes demotions, as is the case with Stephen McConnell. If I offend someone personally, am I then at risk of being expelled or not? Can I flauntless hunt down and pester individuals who's ranking is lower than mine, without worrying about retributions? How much flame-fest can I partake in before the line is cut? How much hindrance can I extert on a project, before I am kicked out? There are papers written about the positive sides of The Apache Way, but very little on it's ugly side. If the ASF is going to survive in the long-term it needs to address these issues. Perfect harmony is an utopia that can only exist in small groups (whether that be ASF or a kolkhoz) and currently there are no guidelines of what constitutes acceptable behaviour for committers, members, officers and directors. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Sunday 26 September 2004 23:35, Ceki Glc wrote: At 04:08 PM 9/24/2004, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: How many in Apache think you are right? Is that a fair question? In all due respect, my initial question about demotions quickly turned into a clogmire of intertwined subjects, reaching from breach of confidentiality to netiquette to understanding the Apache Way to wasting people's time and other more or less non-relevant assertions. It never really had anything to do with Avalon, except that my questions were triggered by events there. The problem that Nicola perhaps doesn't realize is that, for Apache to be long-term viable, it constantly needs to revive and evolve itself. Otherwise it will become a speck in history, and not a dominant force of horizontal open-source projects. And as you, Ceki, correctly point out, suche evolution is likely to come from a minority and possibly not from the top-tier. Anyway, my point is that shooting down a minority opinion based only on numbers will not serve the interests of the majority on the long run. I think it is called the Apache Way, i.e. I haven't earned the respect of others to have a different opinion about the ASF internals, nor does my view that what 100 people (members) is informed of, can be shared with the remaining set of committers that makes out this community. Apperently my Scandinavian background of complete transparency is not compatible with the more secretive athmosphere around here. Lesson learnt. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Monday 27 September 2004 00:35, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: for a doctor to tell your friends and neighbours that you have cancer? Hippocratic Oath (not sure of spelling), similar to a contract. for an employee to tell its employer that it really hates its job, and intends to resign at the earliest opportunity in order to take a job with a competitor? Well, that is the choice of the employee, and I doubt that it will raise much eye browes if he/she does. or for an employer to tell an employee that it'll be fired for cause in three weeks? I am not entirely sure, but I think this falls under Labor law, and not only acceptable but required from the employer. Even considerations of the possibility of laying off people must be communicated to the Labor Union upon occurrance. You forgot National Security, which is basically kept within the Armed Forces and Special Police Force, plus reinforced by signed contracts. Business communications are typically governed by mutual NDAs. I am sure there are more cases, where communication secrecy is backed by contract? So, I still maintain that a cultural difference lay behind the difference of opinion, whether the mail to the Metro group, to the Avalon PMC and accessible by all ASF members were of confidential nature or not. And I sure did check with Stephen McConnell what his take was on quoting his name straight up, and he had no objections whatsoever. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Monday 27 September 2004 06:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: you really don't seem to understand. *stephen* wasn't on the distribution list, and yet you checked with him. I have refrained from attacking people in this list, but there is a limit on how much lies I will tolerate. Mr Coar, please check your facts before implying yet more untrue statements in this and other matters. It doesn't suit you to be caught in FUD spreading and carrying untruth to your fellow developers here at the ASF. IMHO, you have broken not only unspoken principals of the ASF (which you are accusing me of), but what is normally called human decency and one of the foundations of most societies; Thou Shall NOT LIE. I don't know your motives behind this action, and hope it is only a matter of over-excited to prove me wrong and/or ignorance to check up your statements. This is so sad. IMHO, an apology is in order, not to me, but to those who have placed their trust and confidence in you to a person of integrity and respectability to represent them in this organization. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Monday 27 September 2004 12:00, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Just correct him if he made a mistake. So when he carries untruth that would have been very easy for him to check, that validates just correct him, and when I make the disclosure of what I believe to be ASF-wide public information, the flamefest and attacks are appropriate ?? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Monday 27 September 2004 21:30, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: i am dismayed that the private message was exposed the way it was. i am much more concerned that the individual involved apparently doesn't see the action as incorrect. if i felt comfortable that it *did* understand why it was inappropriate, i personally would be glad to regard the incident as a one-time mistake arising from misunderstanding or cultural differences, and most of my concern would evaporate. You and the rest of the community have my sincere apology for revealing content that I was unaware of had a confidential nature, as I knew the readership was already fairly large and that there existed no indication in the message about the confidentiality in the matter. I still maintain my _opinion_ that more transparency would be appreciated. I am equally dismayed as Ken is, that a flamefest took place, where other issues were brought in to the picture. Whether I fuelled those flames or not, I am not sure. I really tried not to, and refrained from answering many accusations based on that it would not lead anywhere, and only make the situation worse. Those are IMHO still just accusations. Cheers Niclas P.S. I prefer not to be called it :o) -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 09:30, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: If you want to change my mind, that's how you start: tell me what is the benefit for the ASF in promoting this style of community building, despite its long-term history of social energy waste, frustration and contract instability. In all due respect, IMHO this thread was never meant to be about community style building. Initially I brought up an issue of knowing the playing field to a more explicit extent, and secondary about level of transparency. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 23:18, Sam Ruby wrote: long-lived community is the key phrase. yes. Successful communities outlast their leaders. Agree. In any case, this does not answer the question as to how the lack of a top level project for Metro would damage a commercial user. IMHO, 1. Metro doesn't belong any more in Avalon than Cocoon belongs in Tomcat. 2. The described 'worst-case' scenario, makes me not inclined to take Merlin away from the ASF. from that follows a set of options, a. A TLP. b. The Incubator. c. Another project/federation. a. is what we have opted for as the most preferred scenario from our perspective. b. is in the group considered a death sentence. Be that an overstatement, some users are indicating it to be a signal of the negative kind. c. we are unable to see that the technology fits naturally within any other project, but I am all ears if there is an opinion towards this. Cheers Niclas P.S. Thanks for your patience. -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 06:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: snip content=appreciated / If you believed in the technology, the brand should not care. I think this is probably the best advice I have gotten all week. Seriously! And when asked *expliticly* to address our concerns about community-style, you just look the other way. Until this day, I have not been interested in history, there is no point at pointing fingers and place blame. I have a long list of people (myself, Stephen, you Stefano, and *many* others) who have their fair share of blame in the Avalon 'disaster'. Don't point fingers at others without pointing at your own nose first, is my motto. Tell me: what would *you* do in my shoes? Well, that is a highly hypothetical question, isn't it? I am not the master creator of communities, who take pride in stepping away when he thinks he is an obstacle to the community, yet steps back in and with 'determination' sets 'half paralyzed' projects back on track. YOU are really good at it, so what would I know of what to do in this situation? I am a simple man, who likes to chitchat over a beer in an Irish Pub, or as a poor man's substitute for airtickets, ICQ, and would probably spend more time with people at a social level, accepting that all are not equal and not expecting big changes from them, than re-iteration of rhetoric. Even people I don't like can teach me something positive. And often people I don't like at first (like my wife) can be much more genuine than first impression, or what is expressed in fruitless debates and flamefests. What would I do? Perhaps provide some better guidance of how to make things better and less critique of what's wrong? But then I again, I am not in your shoes, and most likely never will be. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Style of community building
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 17:55, Steven Noels wrote: snip content=good material / One should give and take with consideration and balance. Noted and Agreed. AND respectfully wished this would be true in all directions. I have also lately been made aware of actions that I do not comprehend, and will politely refrain from any further public debate in the ASF political arena. I am probably just another idiot. Please, ignore me, I have caused too much aggrevation, and withstood too much humiliation, for/from this community, so I ashamefully withdraw back under my rock and get on with better things in life, like getting a great product through the door... Cheers Niclas Hedhman - - - - - If you shout loud enough, noone will hear you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
On Saturday 09 October 2004 13:11, Ben Laurie wrote: Brian Behlendorf wrote: Comments? Is there anything the community thinks we could do to address the situation? Try to encourage sensible writing? I mean, it'd be cool if there were more women in open source, but the whole idea that open source should rely less on clue and stop being about writing code is just completely dim. Ok Girls!!! Speak up! How do you feel about being part of the ASF community? Have you ever been victims of sexism here or in other projects? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
On Saturday 09 October 2004 16:00, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Imagine living in a house where teh ASF board members lived together. [mental image of stefano running out of the house screaming] Look at us. Yeah, us, alpha geeks! A little flowers on the table might not be enough to get the alpha geek-ness go away, but, know what?, it's not the result (which is going to be pathetic anyway, and they know that already), it's the effort! Amen!!! Lingo, attitude and 'geekness' is not the strong sides of this community to attract, not only women, but people who are not entirely stereotype molded, who are somewhat different and can add spice to our boring lives. Now, there ARE people in ASF who are different, but are they enough and given enough room here, and is the environment in any way hindering the process of growing the social structure... Yes, the social structure! Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 21:02, Ben Hyde wrote: Projects that: fail to welcome new comers; fail to bring in credible new contributors ... well they are just stupid. They will ultimately become dysfunctional and implode. Question; Should Open Source be Open Participation? I am sure that the upper-tier of ASF would shiver at the thought that hordes of people can gain direct access to the repositories. They/we will dust of the same arguments of why Wiki won't work. But it does. Why? Because *most* people *want* it to work. Can it work on code? _I_ am absolutely certain, but I never expect that the hard-earned ranks of the upper-tier in ASF to willingly relinguish the 'military style rankings' that makes up ASF and most other OSS projects. Future will tell, but I am putting my money on Open Participation Software (OPS) where everyone is welcome to join in, not barriers of entry and militarism of promotions. ;o) You heard it here first :o) Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd)
On Wednesday 13 October 2004 16:44, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote: In the end, the majority of the 99% must adjust to the 1% of idiots. Hmmm At a 2 magnitude superiority in manpower, the majority is unable to keep them in check, and weed them out? Is that a matter of lack of tools, or doesn't the majority care? You mention grafitti as an example; The punks can do it undetected + it is more effort to remove than put up. Would they bother if it is fixed by the press of a button, when 'anyone' sees it (i.e. good tools)? Well, maybe I am living in a dream world and there are more idiots out there than I think. Maybe you shouldn't tell me, I might get a trauma from getting out of my disillusion. But please, stop talking about things that you obviously have never tried out or at least not tried out on a marginally successful project. I am amazed at your logic :o), I truly am. But asking me to stop questioning the status quo, what is the purpose of that? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DOM v3 in JDK 1.5
Hi everyone, This is a semi-cross community technical issue, regarding the change of the org.w3c.dom.Node interface (as part of DOM3). Is there anyone who has investigated the consequences of these changes, and I am referring to the previously terrible situation with the DOM1 to DOM2 transition a couple of years ago. Will the trio Crimson, Xerces, Xalan be able to cope with it in a reasonable way for the users, especially in light of the likes like Tomcat, Cocoon and possibly other XML heavy projects. I am hoping that the Jar-order hell that reign back then is not going to repeat itself. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source, Cold Shoulder (fwd): One woman's comments
On Wednesday 20 October 2004 10:56, Brian Behlendorf wrote: I'm not suggesting we rename ourselves the Cute Nice Fluffy Bunnies Software Foundation. ROTFL... From a feared native-american tribe to cuddly... :o) My vote goes for The Bambi Software Foundation or The Kitten Software Foundation Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
On Saturday 20 November 2004 05:04, Brian Behlendorf wrote: This may be completely inappropriate for this list... Yes it is. ASF is not political, and AFAIU fairly international, and for the non-USA community, this doesn't concern us any more than dirty politics in other countries. but this, is so, *wrong*. Yes it is. And no matter what side of the political spectrum you sit on, I know transparency and auditability and trust is important to you - that's why you're here at Apache. When I called upon more transparency at ASF, I was 'crucified' by mainly the US-based ASF members, saying that secrecy is a necessity. IMHO, that attitude leads to the alleged actions, or the suspicion that the alledged actions could have occurred. The way you make the bed, is the way you are going to sleep. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
On Saturday 20 November 2004 17:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: The way you make the bed, is the way you are going to sleep. in case you didn't notice, the ASF is *NOT* a democracy. I wasn't making a comment from a democratic PoV. And if any 'democratic' principles, such as transparency, representation through election, certain rights and freedom, disqualify from being mentioned in the ASF, then why does Brian think the Florida election should at all be mentioned here?? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Microsoft warns Asian Gov'ts -- puts Linux users on notice
On Tuesday 23 November 2004 22:00, Raphal Luta wrote: Note that this is largely FUD on Microsoft part, right now you can't enforce a software patent in most of the world, WTO or no WTO. Exactly. M$ has problems to find growth markets, and the biggest promise is China, but the signals from them are; We are going Linux. Same message M$ keeps hearing from all the other East Asian countries, perhaps except Japan (don't follow what happens there much). This will in turn churn out millions of chinese Linux programmers, who will create top-notch applications in every conceivable field, and with a bit of luck English versions will be available for the rest of the world to enjoy. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Thursday 16 December 2004 02:26, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: So the PMC chair was perfectly within its authority to request that the board terminate the project. And from what I read on the Avalon lists, my clear impression is that the action had majority support within the project if not a consensus. Smoke and Mirrors - isn't there a passage in the New Testament with something about sin and stones ? And it's amazing how high the political can stack without smell. But, anyway, that is history so let's move on with our lives - after all, the only ones who really got hurt were the Avalon users, and the ASF establishment have already declared that they are not important. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Thursday 16 December 2004 04:00, Serge Knystautas wrote: James was one of Avalon's most visible users, and I simply cannot stand to hear someone from Avalon criticize the ASF establishment about the treatment of Avalon users. That does not make James/Cocoon and the other ASF projects the *only* users. Now, thanks to the private mails issue that I have been hammered for in the past, I can't quote the ASF Director on public lists, but when I previously pointed out what level of support the Merlin route had among the users, I was bluntly told; that doesn't matter, and given BCEL as an example of plenty of users but failure as a project. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Wednesday 01 December 2004 11:26, Noel J. Bergman wrote: more important than the community's vision The [VOTE] Single Avalon Platform[1] was started by Aaron. The vote passed, although you decided not to participate. True, the vote is not about Merlin==Avalon, but about a to-be-defined specification, although it is hinted both in the [VOTE] as well as in the Vote results[2], that Merlin is the only platform that had enough momentum to fulfill such specification. proceeded to engineer consensus by attrition, I am sick and tired of hearing this about Steve (just because something is said enough many times, doesn't make it true), so let's bring out some attrition... * Leo Sutic called the Merlin camp quoteSteve and his Nazi hordes/quote. * I pointed out that was inappropriate language in a very formal tone, but not really offended. * Greg Stein[3] steps into the discussion and goes; What's your problem? So, my conclusion was; to Greg it is fine to call someone a Nazist, but it is not fine to object to it. I found that disgusting and left the Avalon PMC in protest. In the end, there was a lot of mouth and very little action from one camp, and very much backing your mouth with action in the other. Many people lay their argument to rest and steps aside to let those who are able to complete their vision. Steve proposes/suggest to the remaining individuals to do the same, THAT is what you now call attrition. The proposal of splitting into both Excalibur and Merlin TLPs are a result of all these flamewars. To be frank, at that time, Merlin was the technically different project. It had expanded the scope of Avalon by a magnitude, yet members of the Board encourages us to withdraw the proposal and forge ahead within Avalon. The people who didn't like Merlin, started Excalibur, i.e. 'old Avalon without Framework'. Furthermore, during the Merlin TLP proposal, Mr Coar tells me that he will not support the formation of a project based on balkanization of people and only for differentiation on technology. YET, he did exactly that with the Excalibur TLP, AND not along technical differences that Merlin in effect was all about. When pressed, Mr Coar admits that he didn't know any of the technology within Avalon, and trusts other members of the Board to provide the judgment. Noel, you know all of this, yet you decide to ignore facts and only re-inforce the myth of consensus by attrition of Stephen McConnell. Your motives for that is unknown, and I won't speculate, but I will not let you get away with it that easy. Now is now, and everyone who set out to get Steve kicked out of ASF have succeeded. Mission accomplished, without officially having to kick him out. In retrospect, do I regret that we now are active outside ASF? No, not at all. I think it is a bigger loss to ASF than it is to us. Transitional hurdles for some Merlin users, yes, but we are getting over that and will forge ahead with a lot of action and no mouth. Since mouthing is the fashion in ASF, I come here to do it... :o) Cheers Niclas [1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-devm=107906869526922w=2 [2] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-devm=107940014832041w=2 [3] Since Greg was not an Avalon user nor developer, I assumed that he intervened in the capacity as ASF Chairman, but he later pointed out that he was acting as an interested individual, my peer developer, hanging out on the Avalon PMC list, and not acting in any official capacity. -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Thursday 16 December 2004 22:51, J Aaron Farr wrote: In fact, Niclas, why don't you open up all the [EMAIL PROTECTED] archives? I seem to remember quite a few conversations by the Metro TLP team about wanting to, what was it?, clean up the kitchen or take out the trash in reference to cleaning up the dead committers in Avalon. 1. It was not a mailing list per se. There are no archives, only what you have on your hard disk. 2. Isn't it great that you can quote without a source, taking things out of context without worrying about public scrutiny. You have really outdone yourself in this one, though... I'm sorry you've got an ax to grind with Greg. His comment was _not_ about defending Leo Sutic. 3. For the record, the incident with Greg is IMO something that happened, which I still think was utterly unappropriate (Why don't *you* open the mail archives around it?), but not to be held against him for all times. Furthermore, I didn't took it personally. I don't know if the law has been changed recently in France and Germany, but it has been illegal to even publish the words, and definately libel. Now, please stand with a straight face and say that was Ok, for for instance our german middle-aged member. Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as poisonous as Avalon was at the time? 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to make it hard for everyone else? There has to be more than one to have a disagreement. The only ones willing to keep committing were those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository. 5. In a positive atmosphere, it would be called; Prepared to take action, when paralysis had set into the community. The agenda was to promote Merlin into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was considered being against approx half the PMC and some additional developers, we started the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the Excalibur group just needed to be better, and by throwing in a second proposal, at least one member of the Board intervened privately, and asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge ahead with the new vision. Now, I call that a mandate. Yet, Excalibur TLP without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology. Something Mr Coar would never agree to. Not everyone understood the development goals of the two communities (Excalibur and Merlin) and how they were different. 6. I didn't understand it then, and I don't understand it now. Community health is the chief concern of the Board when approving TLPs, whereas many Merlin TLP proponents didn't even recognize that this was a valid concern. There wasn't a willingness to work together. 7. Not willing to work together? Leo Sutic started on some very neutral aspect orientation stuff, which both I and Steve supported, but when the main driver runs out of air, what do expect? The 'accusers' of that Steve and I were unwilling to co-operate, only bring up that we refuse to make implementations to their whimps. Except for the /LS initiative, I can't recall any other, where we tried to stop any progress, that someone wanted to persue. Only recall the opposite. We do something, everyone else want to block it. Give me some examples where we were not willing to work together. FUD is hard to argue against. Then why in the world are you bringing your grief back here? 8. grief. My dear little boy, if you call this grief you don't know much about life. Call me when someone really near to you pass away, and then we can talk about grief. Maybe I am just satanistic sadist who like to kick a dead horse. Maybe I happen to think that a great injustice has been made, and don't like when people make statements portrayed as facts, when they at the most can be called perceptions. Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
[fixed-width font required] Serge, I disagree with your assessment that You [Steve], as a primary actor in the Avalon community, failed... 1. Steve is accused of becoming the primary actor of late, when the other primary actors, like Peter Donald, Berin Loritsch, Nicola Ken Barozzi, Paul Hammant, Stefano Mazzocchi (I probably left a few out), had left, i.e. towards the later part of 2003. 2. So, let's re-examine the history of WHEN the James entropy sets in, i.e. what has been 'killed' at which point in time; Dates in parenthesis, is the last trace I can find of it. +++ means possibly not rebuildable from source, as I have not been able to locate the source directories in CVS history, only deleted Jars in the Phoenix project. Prior to Mid-2003 (i.e. before I was heavily involved) excalibur-baxter-1.0a.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002) phoenix-client.jar DEAD+++ ( 4 Apr 2003 ) phoenix-bsh-commands.jarDEAD ( 2 Mar 2003 ) excalibur-threadcontext-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003) excalibur-containerkit-1.0.jar DEAD+++ (27 Dec 2002) excalibur-extension-1.0a.jarDEAD+++ (28 Feb 2003) These were repackaged into a compatibility deliverable, somewhere prior to mid-2003, and handed over to the Excalibur TLP under a excalibur-compatibility artifact/jar; excalibur-cli-1.0.jar REPLACE BY COMMONS CLI excalibur-collections-1.0.jar DEAD excalibur-io-1.1.jarREPLACE BY COMMONS IO excalibur-concurrent-1.0.jarDEAD During the period when I was actively monitoring, and later committer, in the Avalon project and Steve a primary actor. none * In the Excalibur TLP after taking over the code. excalibur-i18n-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository) excalibur-configuration-1.0.jar DEPRICATED excalibur-util-1.0.jar DEAD (No longer in source repository) excalibur-compatibility DEAD (No longer in source repository) containing the concurrent,cli,io and collections. Indecisive; excalibur-instrument-0.1.jarNEVER RELEASED (I would say that is due to Steve and my lack of interest in excalibur codebase.) cornerstone.jar UNRELEASED UNREPRODUCABLE (Unreproducable due to missing version, even no snapshot id. Would have been released in due time.) Furthermore, the entire Excalibur codebase was not buildable when I came into the Avalon project. I and Stephen spent a few weeks to get it to build, and another few weeks to get Gump to build it. We had no interest in that codebase per se. We just 'collaborated'. NOW, for the Record, I get very upset when I look at the above, and that the we (Stephen McConnell myself) are accused of; 1. Not collaborating and unable to compromise. 2. Not being concerned of other ASF users, such as Cocoon and James. 3. Not taking care of Avalon legacy. 4. Consensus by Attrition. To me it is more a matter of those who started Excalibur gave up on it, deserted the user base, and managed to blame someone else (Steve and perhaps me). As soon as the (basically) same group of primary actors, Berin Peter, regains their 'position' (i.e. Excalibur TLP) further axing of the legacy is done, without much regards for projects like Cocoon and James. You really think that we consider that fair judgement? I assume, that most of the judgement passed on Steve from respectable people like yourself, is only amplified FUD created and propagated by people who are in disagreement with Steve on how Merlin should have been evolved. I can't see any other explanation... Tragic! Can we start a new mailing list called [EMAIL PROTECTED] and somehow redirect all avalon-related emails to that? Well, some people are interested in history and justice even if it is superficial. ( Oh, I forgot, I have the right to remain silent... Go straight to jail without passing GO. ) Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Friday 17 December 2004 00:13, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Well, actually the dictionary does: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=attrition. And, yes, when someone suggests that those who don't agree with him remove themselves from the decision-making process, I would call that consensus by attrition. Why didn't you list the meanings given by your link; quote 1. A rubbing away or wearing down by friction. 2. A gradual diminution in number or strength because of constant stress. 3. A gradual, natural reduction in membership or personnel, as through retirement, resignation, or death. 4. Repentance for sin motivated by fear of punishment rather than by love of God. /quote Assuming that 4. is not what people are talking about; 3. indicates that any reduction of numbers can be called by attrition irregardless of method for that to occur, which I would see no harm in per se. 1. and 2. is probably what people are referring to, which are essentially the same. Avalon has apparently been full of stress for a very long time, way before Merlin was in Steve's head. Heaps of people left due to it, a long, long time ago. I find it awkward that the most stress-tolerant people are accused of doing something bad. Are they responsible for adding to the stress? Yes. But so are many of the people who left. And regarding the developer/committer base in Merlin; Some highly successful projects in ASF, has started with just a few people, and not exceeding 5 in its first year. Merlin's first *beta* release was in Sep 2003, then effectively 1 committer. The first official release, endorsed by the PMC, was in late May this year, and effectively two core committers and 3-4 working on auxillary stuff. Now, there are 4 developers in Metro who hack around in the core, and ~3-4 working on aux stuff. I would call this natural progression, even within ASF. Attrition happens in all projects, no matter if they are successful or not. It is only how you play the word game, the FUD and the general politics whether it is perceived as 'believable' or not. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Monday 20 December 2004 10:01, Serge Knystautas wrote: That doesn't mean it's fair, or even matters that much. Passing judgement on someone often doesn't matter much, except to the 'convicted'. Not guilty vs 4 weeks in jail with parole can change someone's life dramatically. Never-the-less. To play devil's advocate, everything new I use is built outside of the ASF, so what's the big deal about having to take your code elsewhere? Besides some few weeks of code transmorphing, license-based impossibilities of remaining totally backward compatible and the hassles coming from our choice of hosting ourselves (cost of dedicated hosting is dropping rapidly), I now agree that being outside ASF has many advantages, and far fewer disadvantages than I expected. Are you hinting that ASF's significance will diminish over time, as it is unable to cope with its own growth in light of the legacy? Is there a scalability issue with OSS in general? In ASF? Are there long-term problems of keeping smaller projects healthy? How about the larger ones? Do they need the benevolent dictator with his lieutenants? Just some thoughts... Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Is ASL2.0 not GPL-compatible ??
The Jini community is in the mix of going Open Source and I would like to influence Sun to choose the ASL2.0. However, quote Are there other license possibilities? Sure. The Apache 2.0 license I mentioned is one: http://apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 Against our desired characteristics, it's failing is that the Free Software Foundation (creator of the GPL) says it isn't GPL compatible. We feel pretty strongly that we want a GPL compatible license, and we think the patent non-assertion promise coupled with the MIT license will be acceptable those who would otherwise prefer the Apache 2.0 license. /quote So how is it? Is ASL2.0 GPL compatible or is it not? If it is NOT, then there are a lot of swamp out there in the Linux world, where Apache products are used to create larger apps which are GPLed. Please note the direction here... IOW, Can I re-license an ASL2.0 product under the GPL?? I thought I could. Why does Sun quote FSF saying I can't do that? Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not GPL-compatible ??
On Monday 20 December 2004 23:54, Joshua Slive wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: Does anyone know, and preferably have any authorative-like links ?? http://www.apache.org/licenses/ http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html thanks!!! -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 05:05, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: Who wants to commit any code or do anything in an environment as poisonous as Avalon was at the time? 4. So you don't want to spend any time in Avalon, but you really do want to make it hard for everyone else? There has to be more than one to have a disagreement. Regardless of whether there was any 'right' or 'wrong' position, it appears that there were irreducible differences. I only recall one side expressing a willingness to compromise. My memory may be imperfect, though. I am sure that you have some very specific episode in mind, and by leaving that out, it is hard to respond to it. I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; * The Merlin camp was accused of bulldozing the people who supported the Excalibur/Fortress platforms. * The Excalibur codebase was in a terrible shape and didn't build. * Fortress was in slightly better shape, but couldn't build in a single invocation, due to internal cyclic dependencies. * Fortress and Excalibur has cyclic dependencies between them. * There was a cyclic dependency that went via a project in the Incubator (AltRMI). * I spent several weeks (actual man-weeks) unnesting all of that, and making it ready for a final release. * I then spend additional unknown amount of time, to get the same codebases (+Phoenix) to build in Gump. (note, Steve helped out a lot in the above excersize, but was primarily focusing on getting Merlin ready for a release.) Now, if I have no sense of collaboration, taking care of the Legacy and compromise (in this case balancing my time between Excalibur vs Merlin), then I have no clue what you guys expect from people. If inability of compromise is the same as refusing to implement what others think should be done, then just about every single project in ASF is guilty as charged. Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant and important. Opinions are appreciated, but by no means right, just because a group within the community say so. The only ones willing to keep committing were those who were determined to bulldoze there agenda into the repository. 5. In a positive atmosphere, it would be called; Prepared to take action, when paralysis had set into the community. ISTR some issues about ignored vetos and vetos without sufficient justification. (Don't know what ISTR stands for) Ok, I would like to know of these vetoes. Not more FUD. The only veto I know of that has been in dispute, is Leo Simons veto against the new site, which in defense I say; 1. It came in late, long after the change was executed. 2. His issue was regarding the change of wording in the specification of the AF4.2, which he claimed was an incompatible change for component authors. 3. In the midst of that clarification, heaps of people stepped in with other issues, murking what is on the table of a veto and what is not; - Berin Loritsch had a list of issues, IIRC, mostly concerning missing redirect links, and I recall the final conversation with him that his concerns were all addressable. - Stefano Mazzocchi jump in, making a big thing about the Avalon Legacy and the people who was before (without noticing that he himself, together with a few others had been properly ADDED to the list of developers, which previously was missing before I dug into it.), which led to a Ford Thunderbird analogy (which *I* found amuzing). 4. Most people having negative reaction, fuelling the flames were not part of the daily Avalon community. Steve made the mistake of trying to defend our choices, which got out of hand and he resigned in response to make sure everything cool down. But that was all about Leo Simons veto... I am sure you must be talking about something else... The agenda was to promote Merlin into a platform for component oriented architecture. When that was considered being against approx half the PMC and some additional developers, we started the process of taking Merlin to TLP, but the Excalibur group just needed to be better, and by throwing in a second proposal, at least one member of the Board intervened privately, and asked us to drop the Merlin TLP and forge ahead with the new vision. Now, I call that a mandate. Please clarify what you mean by 'mandate' here. That the board was mandating that you drop the Merlin TLP idea? Mandate that the Board, or parts thereof, thought it was better to spin the Legacy into a new project and let Avalon grow into a Merlin-based community and the visions we had. Yet, Excalibur TLP without me and Steve was manna from heaven for this group, but it was definately a matter of balkanization along people and not technology. Something Mr Coar would never agree to. One thing I don't agree to is people putting words in my mouth. Please cease doing so. So you want the quote? You have been hammering me
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: I give you an example of what I call 'compromise' and 'collaboration' ; Those events as you describe them did happen. If they were the only ones, we'd have a happy healthy community. :o) Each individual works on what he/she finds interesting, relevant and important. Opinions are appreciated, but by no means right, just because a group within the community say so. Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those vetos, and how progress can be made by resolving them. So, please bring to the table a particular case, since I fail to recall any such veto being ignored and/or not worked on to be resolved, other than the mentioned Leo Simons' (was he even PMC at the time? still not ignored.) one, which got caught up in a larger mess. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:19, Stephen McConnell wrote: Greg holds to the opinion that the appointed Chair is the PMC and that the members are simply an artificial construct. Before anyone is requesting the quote where Steve get that notion from; http://www.apache.org/~niclas/irc/2004-05-15.022554.txt which is an IRC session regarding the fork/transfer/something of Phoenix to James, via an SVN import into Avalon's SVN space. Everyone is aware that this IRC session is logged and available to the public (before people hammer for that.). Following quotes from Greg Stein (and one McConnell); (12:10:11) gstein: mcconnell: aaron *is* the PMC ((12:46:05) gstein: the members of the PMC is an artificial construct created by the Chair 12:48:15) gstein: mcconnell: the board expects a PMC to operate in a consensus fashion, (12:48:38) gstein: but when a PMC *cannot* operate in a consensus fashion, then the Board leaves it to the Chair to figure out the right solution. (12:52:47) gstein: if Aaron wants to ask the PMC, then he can. (12:57:17) mcconnell: then don't ask aaron for an opinion because aaron has not talked with his PMC MEMBERS (12:57:29) gstein: mcconnell: doesn't matter to me. that's up to him. In my personal opinion that also seems to suggest that committer and/or PMC vetoes are also of no interest. The PMC Chair is an ultimate decision maker (at least in the view of Greg), who from time to time decides how to deal with disagreements. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:41, Noel J. Bergman wrote: You seem to keep forgetting that I supported Merlin havine a home at the ASF. Very much appreciated :o) , as I know you normally saw through all the BS that was part of the Avalon stage. Point? That consensus by attrition is a negatively loaded term, yet a natural occurring thing in all projects (people do leave healthy projects) which is replenished with new blood (but in our case that is also turned into something bad). SO the point is; Consensus by attrition is FUD, and hard to argue against, yet said enough many times, it has turned into a fact. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:09, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: People leaving a project for J Random Reason is acceptable attrition. People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is, too. A practice of asking people to leave, or trying to drive them away, because they don't agree with you is not acceptable. Charges of the latter were levied, and as I recall were supported by the email archives. If so (i.e., if I'm not misremembering), it's a factual observation of behaviour, not FUD. I suspect Noel already has the relevant source documents ready to hand if necessary. ( On PMC list == not in mail archives. But that is beside the point. ) It is a single occurrence in time, and in my book everyone is allowed to make occassional mistakes. You make them, I make them, everyone makes them. I think the difference of Hey, Steve that is not acceptable! warning, to a categorical character assassination across the ASF is a bit much. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 12:02, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Niclas Hedhman wrote: On Tuesday 21 December 2004 07:54, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Actually, all it takes to veto a change is one PMC member to cast a -1 with a technical justification. The issue is how a community deals with those vetos, and how progress can be made by resolving them. So, please bring to the table a particular case, since I fail to recall any such veto being ignored and/or not worked on to be resolved, other than the mentioned Leo Simons' (was he even PMC at the time? still not ignored.) one, which got caught up in a larger mess. Out of simple curiousity, what would this accomplish? That FUD is prevalent in ASF establishment, against its own contributors, for unknown reasons, possibly unintentionally, by an unnamed, possibly unknown, person or a group of persons. And that FUD is being amplified by everyone else into facts, and *I* definately don't like these kind of patterns. If you bring accusations to the table, back them up with some examples. That is what I am asking for. If there's a reasonable reason, cool. Otherwise, maybe we can move on. There'll be no 'winner' here. I think there is procedural value of walking through what have happened. A bit of transparency among how this organization is run vs how it states it is run. I would hope that the Board has an interest in that scrutiny of its actions is regularly exercised, to clear its honorable members of any misdoings, doesn't it? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 11:50, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Then you're being uncommonly obtuse obtuse? (is that insult or compliment? otoh getting the true meaning from a dictionary is probably not a good idea :o( ) 'I have a serious reservation about this because it appears to be xxx' is a lng way from 'I will never agree to this because it is definitely xxx.' And evidently you did absolutely nothing to 'solve' (your word) or otherwise address my reservation -- either that or you're hauling out my remark sans context in order to support your current point. Since you ask me so harshly to keep under the lid what the exchange was in the coming mails, I can apparently not clarify where the 'solution path' led to, can I? As far as it goes, I continue to stand by that reservation. IMHO, setting up a TLP because the would-be participants can't get along with the other people in their current TLP -- or those people can't get along with them -- is not a good path. Among other things, it could give both sets of people the idea that being fractious and divisive is acceptable behaviour. Yet IMNSHO the establishment of the Excalibur TLP was more balkanization along people than technology, than the establishment of a Merlin/Metro TLP. So why did that happen? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 17:03, Greg Stein wrote: (12:10:11) gstein: mcconnell: aaron *is* the PMC ((12:46:05) gstein: the members of the PMC is an artificial construct created by the Chair You lost a lot of context there. Ok, agree, but I thought it being unnecessary to quote 71kB of IRC. ;o) And now I lost some more ;o) And yes, the Chair defines the rules/procedures. And when they fail to keep the project and community on track, then the Chair can change the rules. Simple as that. There have certainly been insinuations in this thread and others that my positions or stances are part of the problem. You're certainly entitled to that point of view, but I'm similarly confident that I have been acting in the best interests of the ASF in this matter, and that I have the support of the Membership. Sure you have. You definately have *my* support (although not worth much, maybe a even negative worth) as Chairman of ASF. Now, section 6.3 in the ByLaws of the ASF doesn't rhyme entirely correctly with the quotes from the IRC session. You said; The PMC is an artificial construct. Section 6.3 forgets to mention that. You said; Aaron IS the PMC. Section 6.3 uses the wording shall be primarily responsible for project(s) managed by such committee IANAL, and is not comfortable in trying to make the Section 6.3 clearer, but I beg those who a. understand the mechanics properly, b. capable of formulating the language, c. has the authority to do so, to re-phrase into a more accurate depictment of the PMC, its Chair vs its members. I mean, if the PMC is purely advisory, then write that. This whole episode is also marred by Project ByLaw, which I have been told does not to exist (or do they? confusion!), yet is mentioned that the PMC is tasked to establish them. And those established at Avalon seems partly being contradictory to what Greg says (which I take as most authorative at this juncture). Avalon bylaws are now no longer online, but let's look at an example of contradiction in the Excalibur TLP bylaws, passed by their PMC [1]; http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws Under 1.2.2.4 Project Management Committee, first paragraph, second sentence; quote The PMC is responsible to the board and the ASF for the management and oversight of the Apache Excalibur codebase. /quote Well, apparently the PMC is not responsible and not authorative, only the PMC Chair. IMHO, these types of discrepancies are the true root of this thread. And instead of dismissing everything from my mouth at sight and being sick of me dragging this on, please take a moment and review my findings and move for a clarification of the PMC role (and the Chair), its responsibility and authority, and make that in writing to avoid any future misunderstandings elsewhere. And in the same go, ask the PMCs to review their PMC Bylaws (if they exist) whether they are in conflict with this clarified view. Cheers Niclas [1] http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=698 -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:48, Niclas Hedhman wrote: This whole episode is also marred by Project ByLaw, which I have been told does not to exist (or do they? confusion!), yet is mentioned that the PMC is Sorry, I missed a few words here. Should be; ... yet is mentioned in the Board Resolution forming Avalon, that the PMC is... -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 20:59, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: No, I don't think it was a single occurrence. *I* only know of one such time, in conjunction with Leo Sutic resigning on the basis of People leaving because they don't agree with the majority opinion is acceptable attrition. And there you go again with another highly charged term. Everything else you call hand waving. ;o) What's interesting is that *you're* the one that keeps associating Stephen's name with this stuff. The only time I mentioned him by name was when I was correcting the mistake about authority. Come on, I somehow get the feeling that you are trying to toy me around with your intellect and wit of words. I buy you a beer over that, no problem. I won't drag this on, since you feel like the cat playing with the mouse, so the mouse has now decided eat me, and lays down in front of the cat, awaiting it to loose interest ;o) BUT, I *would* appreciate if you spent some of your intellect looking at the more important stuff raised in this thread under new Subject. Cheers Niclas P.S. Every Sanagendamgagwedweinini on Google refers back to you. Is this some marker to all your doings on the web? -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 21:39, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: (I don't see any new thread yet.) Same thread, new Subject Subject = Requesting clarification in ByLaw text. -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not GPL-compatible ??
On Tuesday 21 December 2004 00:02, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html The Jini technology is going Open Source and I think that is great, and even though I tried hard, it will not be under a ASL2.0 license, most likely the MIT license. Furthermore, it was explained to me that the patent right disclaimers in the ASL2.0 can be circumvented in nasty ways by a truly malicious company/individual if that is the intent, SO the GPL compatibility had higher value than the patent right issue. Now, hasn't their been licensing disputes from (L)GPL camps, IIRC JBoss?? Where they were accusing the ASF of breach of licensing. Can't ASF pay back with the same coins, referring to their own authority (FSF) about that the licensing is incompatible... So, Mr Fleury, please drop the following from your distribution (incl non-apache); * log4j * tomcat * jetty * beanshell * jasper * hsqldb * mx4j and on and on and on... In my opinion (and people here knows I'm the kind who confronts, that's no secret) throw that at JBoss + FSF and see the reaction. Nice Christmas present. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANN] Avalon Closed
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 03:54, Scott Sanders wrote: If there is anything wrong with the policies and procedures of the ASF, it is that Avalon was not shut down in 2001 or before. I have spent most of the evening reading mails pre-Avalon TLP and especially the period around the TLP was formed, and I must agree the Scott. It was infected way back. I would 'commend and applaud' your acceptance that there is an equal and opposite viewpoint to yours on this issue. That has been identified and is acknowledged. I am now asking the question that there is a disparity between the way Greg explains how it works and the way projects operates. I have for instance brought up the PMC ByLaws issue, which doesn't exist but many projects have. I also believe that the multiple opinions out there cannot be reconciled. I am willing to let it go at that, as there is no clear direction forward, since forward has a dozen meanings in this context. So why don't we drop it? I have dropped Avalon out of the picture, that is history. I learned that being a member of the PMC is not necessarily what you think it is. Why not make the roles clear? Why not make sure that PMCs who has ByLaws, take those down and replace with Operational Procedures and Practices, which accurately describes the chain of command that *are* in place at project level, but barely mentioned anywhere? Why not make sure that no more TLPs are created with a boiler text, speaking of these project bylaws? If everyone thinks this is at all not necessary, then fine do nothing about it, let the descrepancy continue to exist, and I'll predict similar problems sooner, rather than later, in the future. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not GPL-compatible ??
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 04:59, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote: On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote: pliant european legal system (UK law, for example). i don't see any way in which the ASF could act to help release managers faced with the criminal law in europe Also note that in the Apache Software Foundation it is not the release manager who is distributing any code or choosing what to release when - but the Apache Sofware Foundation. I don't claim to know anything about the European sw patent issue, but assuming that Robert is fairly well informed, the situation would become; ASF can not issue a statement superceding the law, esp not criminal law, no matter how much it wants to take blame in the criminal act. Worst thing that could happen would be that both are charged, and if found guilty ASF slapped with a hefty fine, which it can't pay, which may lead to confiscation of the physical assets in Europe and possibly restriction on how it is allowed to do business there. I thought that common sense would finally come to the whole sw patent issue in europe, and didn't bother to keep abreast of the development. Scary. Indeed. I feel for you guys. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is ASL2.0 not GPL-compatible ??
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 05:23, Scott Sanders wrote: On Dec 21, 2004, at 1:17 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote: Will the ASF shield me? I doubt it. I really doubt it. Why do you say things like this? Do you fail to understand this is the primary reason for the establishment of the ASF. He is in a bad mood. He is leaving Europe shortly (pre-empting the Patent issue) and will be missing the food, cigars and cafes he enjoyed in Paris over the last few years. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Requesting clarification in ByLaw text.
On Wednesday 22 December 2004 15:27, Greg Stein wrote: FWIW, I liked your phrase in another email about renaming the PMC Bylaws to something like Standard Operating Rules or somesuch. Tho my personal opinion is to just lose them and have one set of rules for all ASF PMCs. That would make *me* really happy and worthwhile, because until a few days ago, I was under the impression that there were bearing to the PMC Bylaws. I give you the ones I can find; http://ant.apache.org/bylaws.html http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/bylaws-addendum.html http://gump.apache.org/bylaws.html http://logging.apache.org/site/bylaws.html http://struts.apache.org/bylaws.html http://wiki.apache.org/excalibur/Bylaws Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.dpml.net / / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Info] Jini goes OSS.
FWIW, Sun have decided to put the Jini specification, documentation and reference implementations under an OSS license. Early on, the discussion of which licensed circled around; BSD, MIT and ALv2. After a lengthy debate on the pros and cons, especially in respect of the patent rights expressed in ALv2 vs BSD/MIT + a separate 'patent promise', it seems that the Jini community have swayed Sun from initially wanting to use the MIT license to now go for the ALv2. Other Jini contributors, will be encouraged to license their projects in the same manner. What this means for the Java community at large, is that Jini can finally a) be adopted as a core technology in many fields, b) new exciting Jini applications can be developed from scratch, c) the OSS communities can take a shot at improving the reference implementation, d) even implementing the specs from scratch if we like. It will still take the Jini team some time to get all the paper work sorted out over at Sun. I think this news together with the arrival of JDO at ASF are the best news, I have heard in a long time. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Info] Jini goes OSS.
On Thursday 20 January 2005 05:13, Henri Yandell wrote: All sounds great but the open sourcing of the spec confuses me. How exactly is that going to work? Has anyone open-sourced a spec before? AFAIU, that is a reference to the fact that the specification contains classes, that have previously also been under the SCSL and negatively impacted the spread of Jini. Will the official version of the Jini spec remain within the JCP? Jini has its own community process (consisting of two Houses, one for corporations and one for individuals) and that will remain. Sun has indicated that they don't intend to start a separate foundation/organization similar to ASF or Eclipse, and think (together with many community members) that the current jini.org setup is in other aspects good. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EU ministers try to pull another fast one
On Friday 21 January 2005 01:21, Noel J. Bergman wrote: http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/55366 Why so many Farming and Fishing Ministers? What do they know of implications in the software industrt? Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Relicense scripts
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 02:34, Felipe Leme wrote: I got a request from an user to send him the script used to change the ASF license comment on Java files. Changing it from what to what, and who is the Copyright owner of the files? Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Relicense scripts
On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:26, Felipe Leme wrote: On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 00:56, Niclas Hedhman wrote: Changing it from what to what, Changing ASL 1.0 to 2.0 or adding ASL 2.0 to a file that doesn't have it. and who is the Copyright owner of the files? Do you mean the files that it is going to use the scripts or the scripts itselves? I'm afraid I was not clear: he does not want to commit a change on any file on ASF's source repository; he just wants the script that changes a file. If you meant which files he would apply the changes, I don't think it matters - even if it is ASF code, he is going to submit the changes as patches, although I believe he might be using it in his code (for instance, he might have decided to release an OSS project using ASL 2.0). Ok, I wasn't clear. If he is the owner of the ASL1.1 copyrighted material, then there should be no problems on the Copyright front. As for the script, Alv2 says that you are free to distribute, sell, offer to sell and what not... So yeah, you can send him the script. Cheers Niclas - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Returned post for committ...@apache.org
On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Gary Gregory garydgreg...@gmail.com wrote: As an open source community, I feel we should eat our own open source philosophy dog food and use open source software whenever possible. Although I personally agree with you, I also think that ASF should stay out of the philosophy arena as long as possible. AFAIK, Corbertura and Emma are also used at ASF, so we shouldn't see it as an 'endorsement', but simply a Use it if you like... for the ASF projects. Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Forking is a Feature reactions?
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:23 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: I can appreciate that, but the stock answer to that is just give them commit. High barriers to committership is not what Apache is about. You may be interested to learn that the Open Participation Software for Java (htttP;//wiki.ops4j.org) was created with a Wiki brought to coding and No barrier attitude, as a result of what we perceived as high barriers at ASF. We are still uncertain about the community dynamics over time (people tend to code more and debate less), and right now there is a discussion whether GitHub will lower or raise that said barrier, Cheers -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
