Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Michele Renda

I try to explain:
OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia 
or Motorola.

They are a little firm, but with a very innovative ideas in the mind.

This don't mean that all the people must to support their idea. You must 
analyze your needs and to decide if you need or not their product.


They don't have a budget and the experience of the big firm I told you 
before, so they must to move slow. They must to make a lot of test and 
to develop the application they need they must to ask help of external  
person.


Everyone help how he can.

If Openmoko will be a firm like Apple, they will start the project in 
secret and they will release only when it will be ready, with all the 
application ready.


But openmoko need the external developer support, so for this reason, 
will pass some time before it can be ready for mass production and use.
Personal I like this way of developing, but not all the people will 
like. It is normal.
I know that if I will buy this phone, I will always need a normal phone 
to make an emergency call :) But I like the same.


In a future, when it will be ready, there will be a consumer version, 
but remember: phone from Apple, Nokia, Motorola will be nicer and will 
play more formats, and cheaper, because Openmoko is Openmoko, not a 
multinational.


I like this phone and I will accept this limitation. I my choise. Then 
you must to make your choise: there is nothing bad if you choise another 
phone that cost less and give more functionality.


So, make your choose and respect the other person choose.

Michele Renda



...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything,
and you have no interest whatsoever in selling to consumers. Because
with these attitudes, even if you do eventually come out with a
consumer version, they won't be interested. This has been my point all
along: what is your goal? If you ever want to sell this thing to
consumers, you're going to have to aim in their direction, not strictly
at developers. If you think you can suddenly start wooing consumers
after all the development is done, you have a rude awakening ahead...

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jaroslaw Swierczynski
2008/3/18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything,

 I completely agree with this strictly because of the battery life on the
  gta01.  If they ever had any intention of this being mass produced, they
  would have got most of the hardware right the first time, and at least
  tested the basic functionality.

Do you understand the simple difference between gta01 and gta02? Gta01
was *never* meant to be a consumer device. They're talking about gta02
here.

 I bought a gta01 because I thought it
  would be fun to write software for.  However the one thing that has got me
  since day 1 is the battery life.

Why do you need a good battery life to develop software? Are you used
to write software outdoors? Just plug in your charger's cable. Unless
you didn't read that big, red warning when you were buying your
customer-ready gta01.

-- 
Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jaroslaw Swierczynski
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I try to explain:
  OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia
  or Motorola.

Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola
they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap.
People who don't understand it apparently like crap.

I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest
idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not
talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty
hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you
lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for
every intelligent man.

-- 
Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Michele Renda
I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are
better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions.

2008/3/18, Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  I try to explain:
   OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like
 Nokia
   or Motorola.


 Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola
 they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap.
 People who don't understand it apparently like crap.

 I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest
 idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not
 talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty
 hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you
 lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for
 every intelligent man.


 --
 Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jordan Keith

This'll be my first email to the community, sorry for any mistakes.

Just to put things straight, I am **not* *a developer, I don't have any 
experience with the Neo1973 or the Neo Freerunner. I haven't had the 
chance to purchase anything, nor have I had the chance to provide 
anything for the community.


That said, I have been closely following the openmoko-devel mailing 
list. All the in-depth stuff. And a number of the personal fears that 
have popped up in these emails are quietly being killed. For instance, 
the battery life. Most people are worried it won't last very long, etc. 
The truth is that the battery life is looking at 200 hours on stand-by, 
and nearly 10 hours of continuous talk. Which is the longest talk-time 
for a phone built around this battery.


The delay is actually rather needed, though it only covers a few small 
things, namely echo during calls and a small number of resistor changes. 
People have found small niggly issues that don't affect the product at 
all, but will give people a chance to complain if they aren't accounted 
for. The echo during calls was described as minimal in most situations, 
but distracting while trying to hold an involved conversation. Sorry I 
have no links, but I'm in a rush here, I'll provide evidence later if 
people want it.


I don't want to sound condescending or mean when I say that the 
community mailing list doesn't hold much information on the product. The 
simple fact is that the community is, at the current moment, waiting 
with baited breath to get their hands on this Neo Freerunner. I praise 
the developers, and most other people would too if you saw the number of 
emails floating around in there. Just for informations purpose, there 
have been nearly 2000 emails in the dev channel since the start of February.


Jordan.

P.S. I'll post a follow-up and some interesting ideas later, currently, 
I have somewhere else to be. Sorry.


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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jaroslaw Swierczynski
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are
 better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions.

Yes, you point is very valid. There are some important differences
like experience, existing product base and number of employees but
generally they have very much in common.

-- 
Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com

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import of dataset for new zealand

2008-03-18 Thread Robin Paulson
land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on
roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have
recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat
that we include an attribution statement:

Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown
Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in
relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and
suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any
loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any
compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data.

this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it
will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the
entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for
every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other
open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings)

the key is the attribution

at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is
a call to all:

a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding
information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed.

suggestions and comments, please

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Re: import of dataset for new zealand

2008-03-18 Thread Robin Paulson
sorry, wrong list. please ignore. or maybe help if you can ;-)

On 18/03/2008, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on
  roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have
  recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat
  that we include an attribution statement:

  Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown
  Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in
  relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and
  suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any
  loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any
  compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data.

  this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it
  will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the
  entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for
  every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other
  open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings)

  the key is the attribution

  at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is
  a call to all:

  a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding
  information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed.

  suggestions and comments, please


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Re: import of dataset for new zealand

2008-03-18 Thread joerg
Am Di  18. März 2008 schrieb Robin Paulson:
 land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on
 roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have
 recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat
 that we include an attribution statement:
 
 Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown
 Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in
 relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and
 suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any
 loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any
 compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data.
 
 this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it
 will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the
 entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for
 every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other
 open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings)
 
 the key is the attribution
 
 at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is
 a call to all:
 
 a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding
 information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed.
 
 suggestions and comments, please

Put the characters as a set of virtual roads on any empty area (preferably 
owned by linz ;-), and position map to this point and zoomfactor for very 
first access to data?
It's a pity there's no redirect, as in HTML. 

jOERG


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GSoC Freerunner

2008-03-18 Thread Ilja O.
I'd like to ask - what is probability of Greerunner hardware to be
ready by the summer? (aka Will I have my Freerunner when GSoC
starts?)

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Re: GSoC Freerunner

2008-03-18 Thread Edwin Lock
I (not affiliated with OM inc. at all) would say it's very probable,
90% or so that the gta02 will be selling at the begin of june.
I'm looking forward to it!

Edwin Lock

On 3/18/08, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'd like to ask - what is probability of Greerunner hardware to be
 ready by the summer? (aka Will I have my Freerunner when GSoC
 starts?)

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Timo Jyrinki
2008/3/18, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Yes, it plays many closed, proprietary formats out-of-the-box, but
none of the open formats like ogg vorbis, ogg theora, flac, speex,
dirac. So it does not play any of my music out-of-the-box, and I'd
prefer to support vendors that support those formats.
  You're speaking with forked tongue here: no other device plays all
  those out of the box either, including full Linux desktops.

I find it very hard to believe you read what people are writing, are
not troll or whatever. Linux desktops do play the open formats I
mentioned, that's the benefit from using open formats. Also some music
devices support open audio formats like the mentioned Vorbis and FLAC.
I mainly use Vorbis.

  store my media in 15 different formats just so I can say I'm using
  an open format. If I can't drag and drop the same file onto each
  and every one of my devices and have it play perfectly, I'm not
  going to bother.

I use only 2 formats, and they are both open. Your problem is using
products that do not support open formats. That's why I'm only buying
hardware that supports open formats, so I don't get into the format
hell where every proprietary codec owners (mp3, aac, wma...) wants
their format to be the one everyone uses, and no-one, especially any
open product, can support them all (or any of them) since all require
license fees. Open formats would solve the problem.

  And lossless formats are a joke. They use such prodigious amounts
  of storage space that there's really no point at all. Just use the
  original media!

Off-topic, but CDs are much more cumbersome to use, and yes I mostly
use lossy format (Vorbis) instead of FLAC when I use music I've copied
from my CDs. I also buy music in FLAC and transcode it to Vorbis for
mobile devices.

  Ogg support is a few taps of the stylus away for IT OS2008.

The point was, again, that the vendor does not _support_ it or other
open formats, which is far more important than how easy it's to
install programs/support manually. I already stated it as clearly as I
could it.

You're way exaggerating
the situation. You also deliberately left out xvid, which OS2008
plays through mplayer, also only a few taps away.

Xvid is MPEG-4 which equals to patent-encumbered format that requires
license fees, so it's not open/free format so I didn't mention it
because I'm not interested in it.

 Vaporware is not the way to attract customers.

It seems to have very strongly attracted you according to the amount
of stuff you keep on posting and repeating.

-Timo

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jonathon Suggs
This isn't another negative post about the delays, I promise.

I have loosely followed this project since somewhere around the middle
of last year.  There were delays, they didn't tell/inform us.   It was
very frustrating because I was in a situation like yours...I really
needed a new phone and I wanted to wait it out.

My honest suggestion is to not wait, but go out and get a phone that
will either make you happy now or just one that can live with.  I'm
currently *extremely* happy with my N95!

Why?  Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the
FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely
polished anyway.  So rather than get all frustrated (and build some
resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial
timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not
when you are ready for the hardware.

Besides, now that I am not in need of a phone I can be more supportive
and fell less compelled to complain.  Also, having a second phone is
going to be a good thing in case you manage to somehow screw up the
software.  Last thing, I don't want to hear the I can't afford two new
phones argument.  You are looking at dropping $400 on a phone...so
another ~$25-100 is NOT that much of a difference.


-Original Message-
From: Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
community@lists.openmoko.org
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT)

Delayed another 6 months is a deal breaker for me. If I can get a
Freerunner that is hardware stable, makes phonecalls and does most phone
functions in a month or two, I'll be fine, otherwise I'm gonna have to
start looking at other devices. My current phone is on it's last leg and
it's time to upgrade. 

- Original Message 
From: Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
community@lists.openmoko.org
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:53:22 PM
Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

JW wrote:
 On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html
 Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the
consumer version that's delayed?


 Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...?

 FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08.
 Polished software not available til much later

  
I guess it comes down to your definition of slightly.  To me
slightly 
earlier than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1
or 
2 months from now.  That would put the gta02 dev release into august.  
However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC 
representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling.  I'm 
looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the 
impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the 
next few months. 



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Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread nqs
 I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty
 device
 in 1 month.

 I agree 100% with Andy. I don't want to buy a device and discover a major
 issue a month after that. I don't want to have to wait for GTA02.1 or to
 have to buy a new GTA03 3 months after GTA02 comes out

 You are all doing a great job. Thanks so much.

 Fred


++

i'm too cheap to buy a product that doesn't work, when i can be patient
and have one that does

Joe

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Jonathon Suggs
Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the
type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is
wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates.  Furthermore,
*if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as
well.

I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact
that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the
software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison)
almost zero visibility into the hardware.  I'm not necessarily faulting
FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies
wouldn't do that either.  I'm just merely pointing out the obvious
contrast and why it is causing frustration.

-Jonathon


-Original Message-
From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
community@lists.openmoko.org
To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion
community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100

The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with 
version A6 currently.
Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far.
Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby 
with GSM.
 
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
 Over here we're working as hard
 as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely
 now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now.

Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's 
all about ramping up the factory.

So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published 
in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog.

cheers
jOERG

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Tilman Baumann

Jonathon Suggs wrote:


Why?  Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the
FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely
polished anyway.  So rather than get all frustrated (and build some
resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial
timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not
when you are ready for the hardware.

You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone.
You would need it because you want to hack it.

Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a 
clue what this is all about.

It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet.
But this is something the community needs to make it happen.
The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone!

Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers.
And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. 
Since it is already rather stabele at the moment.



Regards
 Tilman

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Kevin Dean
I have to chime in here, I was trying to resist. :)

OpenMoko Inc. is a company that, right now, is treading unfamiliar
waters. On one hand, they're a newcomer to the phone market so they
don't have name recognition yet so they need to generate buzz in
order to get the word out around their product. At the same time,
they're made up of hackers who value the freedom and the openness of
Free Software and have been applying that mentality to their business
model. When a bug was found in hardware, it's relayed to us.

The problem is that the rest of the world isn't ready for that. The
general media isn't used to HEARING about a product before it's
almost out the door. OpenMoko Inc has the RARE burden here of
building hype for a product, keeping true to the hacker community who
demands transparency and pleasing the consumers that will in the end
buy it's product. I think the resentment in general is caused by
conflicting paradigms - most people read and article and expect a
product in 6 weeks.

I won't exactly fault OpenMoko here but they should have counted on
that. I understand fully what people are saying - I resisted buying a
Neo1973 because I knew a better version was on the horizon. At the
same time, it's the user's fault as well for making the assumption
that a project that breaks all the rules would follow the rules. :)
What ultimately got my $$$ was self-evaluation of why OpenMoko was
important to me at all - Freedom.

The media is hyping OpenMoko as the iPhone killer and a LOT of
people are interested in it for that reason. Since OpenMoko Inc.
hasn't exactly been... willing to correct that assumption (for obvious
reasons) I think, like GNU/Linux, the entire point is being lost.
OpenMoko is a phone powered by Free Software - if you want that, buy
it, you won't find another phone that meets that criteria. OpenMoko
today is not the iPhone killer. When you see it on a store shelf, of
see a friend with one and personally believe it's the iPhone killer,
THEN you should buy it as the iPhone killer.

But since I got the point of OpenMoko - Freedom - I didn't feel like I
was spending money on what OpenMoko is today. I spent money to ensure
that Freerunner would come out because I have faith that what OpenMoko
will be next year.

At the same time, OpenMoko is also a software community. Sometimes
people get defensive when something they've invested time and energy
into is under attack but at the same time criticism IS as important
in many ways as plaudits. Companies make mistakes, but what really
retains customers is how they respond to those mistakes. Myself, as a
paying customer of FIC/OpenMoko, I'm confidant that they're working on
ways to make my experience better. By keeping true to the goals of
openness and freedom, they're building hype. And while I am reluctant
to phrase it this way, I'm not one to be nice for the sake of it -
the message of freedom has sold SKUs and most of the feature
complaints are coming from people who haven't put any money behind
their rants. Whom do you THINK they're going to cater to given that?

Viva Libre!

-Kevin Dean

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jonathon Suggs wrote:

   Why?  Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the
   FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely
   polished anyway.  So rather than get all frustrated (and build some
   resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial
   timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not
   when you are ready for the hardware.
  You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone.
  You would need it because you want to hack it.

  Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a
  clue what this is all about.
  It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet.
  But this is something the community needs to make it happen.
  The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone!

  Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers.
  And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue.
  Since it is already rather stabele at the moment.


  Regards
   Tilman



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GSoC Interest

2008-03-18 Thread Mark Schneider
Dear Openmoko Community,

On Monday, I saw that the Openmoko mentoring application was accepted
by the Google Summer of Code program.  I am considering applying as a
student for the 2008 Google Summer of Code to work on the Openmoko
project.  I have read over the mailing lists and looked at the wiki
page for GSoC [1], and feel that I would make a good candidate for
working on some of the projects.  The question I would like to throw
out there, is which project does the community think is most
desirable, and that someone would be willing to mentor me on?

First, I would like to formally introduce myself and tell you a little
bit about my background.  My name is Mark Schneider and I live in
Iowa, USA.  I have been interested in the project for some time now,
and was finally able to save up enough money to buy a Neo1973 this
past winter.  I have been using desktop Linux for about 7 years, and
embedded (Denx [2], not OpenEmbedded) Linux and U-Boot for 2 years.  I
have a BS in Computer Engineering from the University of
Wisconsin-Madison and am currently attending Iowa State University
pursuing my masters.  I have worked in embedded field for 2 years,
which is where I have gained most of my experience with embedded Linux
and U-Boot on the PPC platform.  I would like to leverage my past
experience and current schooling to help the Openmoko platform
stabilize.

Since most of my experience is in hardware and low level software
(device drivers and kernel hacking), I think my skills would be best
used there, however, I would not be apposed to working in higher level
middleware.

Initially, I had wanted to write an open source device driver for the
GPS device in the Neo1973 that would provide a standard NMEA output
which gpsd could interpret.  However, I see that the Freerunner will
be getting a new GPS device, so this may no longer be necessary.

Other ideas that I saw on the GSoC wiki page that I thought might be
of interest:
Ad hoc communication via Bluetooth/WLAN
Cooperative Differential GPS
Accelerometer Gestures

My willingness to work on the project is not conditional on whether my
application gets accepted.  I would like to work regardless of Google
supporting me.

If there are any other projects that you think would be good, please
let me know.  I would like to discuss this more before I submit my
application.  Email works well, or you can occasionally find me on
#openmoko under the handle 'queueRAM'.

Regards,
Mark Schneider

[1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2008
[2] http://www.denx.de/wiki/DULG/ELDK

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Re: Metal case [was: Application idea: Bicycle computer]

2008-03-18 Thread Paul Jimenez

  How about a case that's part metal and part plastic? Make it plastic just 
around
the antennas (which, IIRC are at the 'ends' of the phone) and metal everywhere 
else?
Heck, it could end up having a *good* effect by being extra shielding between 
the antennas
and the (noisy) electronics of the phone itself.

  --pj

On Tuesday, Mar 18, 2008, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen writes:
On 3/7/08, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 2008/3/6, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  Why do people want metal cases so much...???Features in wiki
  hardware wishlist too.

  My thought is aluminium = metal = faraday cage = stops gps, gsm, wifi,
  bt signals = BAD idea

 The back of the iPhone is mainly metal isn't it? Many attractive cell phones
 today have at least parts of their cases made of metal.

 Also, I read about someone (forgot where) trying to make a Faraday cage, but
 apparently it is quite difficult in practice. For an efficient cage you
 apparently need many meshes with holes in different sizes for different
 frequencies if I recall correctly. I guess this could be easily tested by
 putting a cell phone in a tin can and trying to call it...

I don't think it is as easy as you think. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For low frequencies the cage will have little effect, but for the wifi
it is not easy to predict. It gets complicated with high freqs. And if
it seems to work nicely when you test it without touching the phone,
maybe it don't work so nice when you do??? I am no expert... just my
thoughts


-- 
Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774

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Re: import of dataset for new zealand

2008-03-18 Thread Robin Paulson
On 18/03/2008, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding
   information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed.
  
   suggestions and comments, please


 Put the characters as a set of virtual roads on any empty area (preferably
  owned by linz ;-), and position map to this point and zoomfactor for very
  first access to data?
  It's a pity there's no redirect, as in HTML.

the idea of using cookies to determine if it's first visit, and
re-directing to the attribution page/showing a translucent overlay for
a few seconds if it is, is an idea that intrigues me.

is this possible, or something that osm would entertain doing?

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Lally Singh
Well Said!

Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki?

Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ?

That's all I'm asking for.  Somewhere I can go to, to see how the
openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be
fine.

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the
  type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is
  wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates.  Furthermore,
  *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as
  well.

  I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact
  that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the
  software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison)
  almost zero visibility into the hardware.  I'm not necessarily faulting
  FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies
  wouldn't do that either.  I'm just merely pointing out the obvious
  contrast and why it is causing frustration.

  -Jonathon



  -Original Message-
  From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
  community@lists.openmoko.org
  To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion
  community@lists.openmoko.org
  Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??


 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100

  The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with
  version A6 currently.
  Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far.
  Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby
  with GSM.

  Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
   Over here we're working as hard
   as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely
   now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now.

  Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's
  all about ramping up the factory.

  So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published
  in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog.

  cheers
  jOERG


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-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Lally Singh
OM's unusual in the sense that they're asking us to do three things:
1. Invest $400-600 in them.
2. Use their device in such a personal way -- a cell phone is as much
a part of my daily setup as my shoes or wrist watch.
3. Develop on it, in our usually too-rare spare time, unpaid.

In exchange, they promise openness.  And so far, where the product's
concerned, I think they've held that part of the bargain.

But, they've been really failing at expectations management.  We are
paying in 3 big ways here, so we are still customers.  For the same
reason why any other customer gets real tired of hearing It'll be
done any time now, it's tiring to hear it from OM.

No open-source project has ever worked well by treating its users as
ungrateful leeches.  Which is what I'm hearing from some of this
community -- it's a great way to poison the well and *ruin* it for
everyone.

When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give
is fix it yourself.  That's how you lose users, who could have
become contributors.  It's how you *kill* open source projects.  As
they're unfunded, the only capital an open source project has its
users.  The criticism is valuable in and of itself.  IMHO the best
response for it is please file a bug report.  They can do that, and
they're getting involved in the community.  And later, someone else
who wants to contribute has a nice place to look for what to do.  Two
birds, one stone.

As for Openmoko, please respect what we're putting into this venture.
Without us, OM's just a raw piece of hardware with a marginal software
stack, more expensive and less functional (in usable terms) than your
off-the-shelf iPhone.  The community is 90% of the value of your
product, remember to spend some time working on it!!

If you're not sure how, read up on some Guy Kawasaki.

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread David Lefty Schlesinger

Lally Singh wrote:


When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give
is fix it yourself.


Clearly the words of someone who's never attempted to complain about the 
lack of a driver for their special hardware on the Linux kernel mailing 
list. Fix it yourself is actually a pretty common response in open 
source projects when the fix that's being demanded is a relatively low 
priority in the grand scheme of things.


Fact is, there's never a shortage of things needing to be done, and the 
folks who are being paid to work on OpenMoko no doubt have a long, long 
list of things that they need to fix already. So your options amount to 
fix it yourself, do without or wait. That's the reality of open 
source projects, particularly those at an early stage, as OpenMoko is: 
if you're convinced that what you need is a high priority, then the 
expectation is that you'll put your money where your mouth is and 
start contributing.


(Of course, if you'd prefer, you could go to a platform like the iPhone, 
so when you demand that you need to have, say, cut and paste 
capabilities, the response will effectively be, Tough or No, you don't.)


I'd be interested in hearing about the open source projects you're 
familiar with, particularly those where the response is How high? when 
the demand is Jump!




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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Oh sheesh.  Why are you trying so hard to poison this project?

  Read the rest of the response.  I said the proper response is please
  file a bug report.  Or shove it on a wishlist.  Someone spent time
  trying to contribute to the project with their own ideas, and the last
  thing you want to do is throw it back in their face.  At minimum,
  you'll throw away a user, at worst, you've lost a significant
  potential contributor.

  The wish list can be 10 gigabytes long, that's fine.  As long as the
  user's been brought a little into the fold, and suddenly we have a
  bunch of nice little places for new developers to join in the project.
   A wish list (or bug report list) and a getting started with
  developing for project X is how you get people in.

  Open source projects are even more dependent on marketing in their
  day-to-day activities than regular commercial endeavors.  Nobody's
  (usually) getting paid, nobody's *got* to do the work.  All you have
  is making each other happy working together.


Yup, responding to my own post.  I've got more to say on this.
This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to
go without me dragging it kicking  screaming.

Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to
decide which ones to work with.  You can't work on every open source
project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we
go.  Instead, we pick and choose.  How?  Two criteria:
1. The project itself.
2. The community.

If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more
likely to contribute.  If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of
RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck
off, then you're not going to go near them.

The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*.  I'll
remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my
point.  You have to fight for every user.  The nice part is, you only
have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway.

If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my
efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere.
 If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in.
 I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread David Lefty Schlesinger

Lally Singh wrote:


Oh sheesh.  Why are you trying so hard to poison this project?
  
Oh, please. If you want to entertain me with rhetoric, put more effort 
into it.


I'm not poisoning this project, I'm simply adding a note of actual 
reality here. If anything might have that effect, I'd imagine it'd be 
the persistent and unrealistic complaints about a project which has been 
more open and transparent than any hardware project I've ever seen. And, 
having worked at both Apple and Palm for a number of years, and having 
spent the past seven years in the cell phone industry, I've seen plenty 
of 'em.


The fact is that the sort of response with which you're so unhappy is 
not unusual in open source projects at all. You're doing a lot of 
opining about what open source projects do without a lot of 
substantiation to back it up. All of this is not much different than the 
demands, many months ago, about Why can't you _just add WiFi_? to the 
GTA01, equally misinformed, equally unhelpful.


Here's an idea: you want a wish list, and feel there's a pressing need 
for one, why don't you create it? It's, after all, the open source 
thing to do, right?



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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Michael Shiloh

Hi Lally,

This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates

I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated 
since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then.


There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and 
whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this.


Michael

Lally Singh wrote:

Well Said!

Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki?

Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ?

That's all I'm asking for.  Somewhere I can go to, to see how the
openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be
fine.

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the
 type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is
 wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates.  Furthermore,
 *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as
 well.

 I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact
 that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the
 software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison)
 almost zero visibility into the hardware.  I'm not necessarily faulting
 FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies
 wouldn't do that either.  I'm just merely pointing out the obvious
 contrast and why it is causing frustration.

 -Jonathon



 -Original Message-
 From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??


Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100

 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with
 version A6 currently.
 Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far.
 Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby
 with GSM.

 Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
  Over here we're working as hard
  as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely
  now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now.

 Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's
 all about ramping up the factory.

 So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published
 in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog.

 cheers
 jOERG


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Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

2008-03-18 Thread Michael Shiloh

Hi everyone,

I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher:


The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production
Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We 
are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields.


The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make 
sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient.


Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Michael

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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Kevin Dean
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Yup, responding to my own post.  I've got more to say on this.
  This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to
  go without me dragging it kicking  screaming.

  Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to
  decide which ones to work with.  You can't work on every open source
  project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we
  go.  Instead, we pick and choose.  How?  Two criteria:
  1. The project itself.
  2. The community.

I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members -
we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong
as they are right.

My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the
community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how
well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have
good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I
think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely
selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to
me.

Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you
to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that
people value Free Software.


  If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more
  likely to contribute.  If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of
  RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck
  off, then you're not going to go near them.

This next statement is going to reflect poorly on the Debian
community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them
so that the bad is my burden not theirs...

The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the
fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it
for me. :)

You argue that every person treated rudely is a potential
contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that
notion of self-reliance, that do it yourself or it won't get done
right mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in
the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to
think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being
persistant.

Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for
themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project,
I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking.


  The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*.  I'll
  remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my
  point.  You have to fight for every user.  The nice part is, you only
  have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway.


I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that
right NOW, OpenMoko is a typical Free Software project. Fine. cool.
When OpenMoko goes mass market it will NOT be a typical project. All
of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven
or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project
is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from
the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY
have achieved critical mass they didn't set out to be Free... GNU,
which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS
in time.

Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question
the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating
use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or
the other is questionable at best.


  If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my
  efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere.

I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects
are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my
worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what the community
does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control
to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet
their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal
to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that
begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope
when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the minimalist or
leave things out and offend the people who want thing A.

A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same do it
yourself mentlality, allows the use to do what matters to them, and
ignore the community. Democracy is a beautiful principal if you can
ignore the fact that the majority is not always right.

   If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in.
   I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way.

With all of my criticism, I beleive that community is critical to the
development of ANYTHING, and Free Software projects specifically. I'm

Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

2008-03-18 Thread Kevin Dean
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Lally,

  This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page:

  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates

  I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated
  since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then.

I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but
this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here.
:)

We, the openmoko community demand you communicate with us. We
complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You
can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter
unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters.

I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear
communication issues.

One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on
direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner
debut. As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko
are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for
those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally
raises the point of the community responding here with a read the
topic response but OMi should really be directing how they want that
handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a
question we're all tired of answering, or have those interested
people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend
their money on this project?

I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even
dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but
OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is
in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that
what is said in the name of OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of
the project.


  There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and
  whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this.

Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome
devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who
can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes
admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying I've sent
out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share means
something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I
know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means
is that updates are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every
telling of the news.

I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job
will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is
either up-to-date or clearly marked out of date. The goal here will
be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST
majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and
even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a
question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as
knowing of the some transistor is vital or just helpful for the
future.


  Michael




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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

2008-03-18 Thread Matt Manjos
I'm not too current on electronics manufacturing, but am I correct in
assuming this PVT is more of a ramping-up, factory thing? Or is it
more of an electronics sourcing/tooling sort of thing?

Also, good luck with the process and I hope it won't be too long
before the fun part of being a community manager starts ;)

Matt

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi everyone,

  I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher:


  The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production
  Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We
  are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields.

  The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make
  sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient.

  Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


  Michael

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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

2008-03-18 Thread David Lefty Schlesinger

Matt Manjos wrote:

I'm not too current on electronics manufacturing, but am I correct in
assuming this PVT is more of a ramping-up, factory thing? Or is it
more of an electronics sourcing/tooling sort of thing?
PVT is typically the final test build before actual hardware production 
starts. It's done on the real factory line, and the devices produced are 
(in theory) identical to the ultimate product. If they go to an A6, I'd 
expect another PVT run to prove things out with that before they start 
making the devices in earnest.






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