Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. They are a little firm, but with a very innovative ideas in the mind. This don't mean that all the people must to support their idea. You must analyze your needs and to decide if you need or not their product. They don't have a budget and the experience of the big firm I told you before, so they must to move slow. They must to make a lot of test and to develop the application they need they must to ask help of external person. Everyone help how he can. If Openmoko will be a firm like Apple, they will start the project in secret and they will release only when it will be ready, with all the application ready. But openmoko need the external developer support, so for this reason, will pass some time before it can be ready for mass production and use. Personal I like this way of developing, but not all the people will like. It is normal. I know that if I will buy this phone, I will always need a normal phone to make an emergency call :) But I like the same. In a future, when it will be ready, there will be a consumer version, but remember: phone from Apple, Nokia, Motorola will be nicer and will play more formats, and cheaper, because Openmoko is Openmoko, not a multinational. I like this phone and I will accept this limitation. I my choise. Then you must to make your choise: there is nothing bad if you choise another phone that cost less and give more functionality. So, make your choose and respect the other person choose. Michele Renda ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, and you have no interest whatsoever in selling to consumers. Because with these attitudes, even if you do eventually come out with a consumer version, they won't be interested. This has been my point all along: what is your goal? If you ever want to sell this thing to consumers, you're going to have to aim in their direction, not strictly at developers. If you think you can suddenly start wooing consumers after all the development is done, you have a rude awakening ahead... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ...in other words, it *is* intended strictly as a developer's plaything, I completely agree with this strictly because of the battery life on the gta01. If they ever had any intention of this being mass produced, they would have got most of the hardware right the first time, and at least tested the basic functionality. Do you understand the simple difference between gta01 and gta02? Gta01 was *never* meant to be a consumer device. They're talking about gta02 here. I bought a gta01 because I thought it would be fun to write software for. However the one thing that has got me since day 1 is the battery life. Why do you need a good battery life to develop software? Are you used to write software outdoors? Just plug in your charger's cable. Unless you didn't read that big, red warning when you were buying your customer-ready gta01. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap. People who don't understand it apparently like crap. I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for every intelligent man. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions. 2008/3/18, Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I try to explain: OpenMoko team is try to follow a project: they are not a firm like Nokia or Motorola. Oh they are very much like Nokia or Motorola. Like Nokia or Motorola they respect their customers and don't want to make them pay for crap. People who don't understand it apparently like crap. I suggest to stop the discussion with Mark. He hasn't got a slightest idea about software/hardware development and business. And I'm not talking only about risking money by selling untested, possibly faulty hardware. I'm also talking about risking business suicide when you lose trust of customers. This should be so easy to understand for every intelligent man. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
This'll be my first email to the community, sorry for any mistakes. Just to put things straight, I am **not* *a developer, I don't have any experience with the Neo1973 or the Neo Freerunner. I haven't had the chance to purchase anything, nor have I had the chance to provide anything for the community. That said, I have been closely following the openmoko-devel mailing list. All the in-depth stuff. And a number of the personal fears that have popped up in these emails are quietly being killed. For instance, the battery life. Most people are worried it won't last very long, etc. The truth is that the battery life is looking at 200 hours on stand-by, and nearly 10 hours of continuous talk. Which is the longest talk-time for a phone built around this battery. The delay is actually rather needed, though it only covers a few small things, namely echo during calls and a small number of resistor changes. People have found small niggly issues that don't affect the product at all, but will give people a chance to complain if they aren't accounted for. The echo during calls was described as minimal in most situations, but distracting while trying to hold an involved conversation. Sorry I have no links, but I'm in a rush here, I'll provide evidence later if people want it. I don't want to sound condescending or mean when I say that the community mailing list doesn't hold much information on the product. The simple fact is that the community is, at the current moment, waiting with baited breath to get their hands on this Neo Freerunner. I praise the developers, and most other people would too if you saw the number of emails floating around in there. Just for informations purpose, there have been nearly 2000 emails in the dev channel since the start of February. Jordan. P.S. I'll post a follow-up and some interesting ideas later, currently, I have somewhere else to be. Sorry. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was not speaking about this aspect. About this aspect I think they are better, but I was speaking about firm dimensions. Yes, you point is very valid. There are some important differences like experience, existing product base and number of employees but generally they have very much in common. -- Jaroslaw Swierczynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.archlinux.org | www.juvepoland.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
import of dataset for new zealand
land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings) the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: import of dataset for new zealand
sorry, wrong list. please ignore. or maybe help if you can ;-) On 18/03/2008, Robin Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings) the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: import of dataset for new zealand
Am Di 18. März 2008 schrieb Robin Paulson: land information new zealand is a government org that holds data on roads and properties for the entirety of new zealand. they have recently given permission to use their data sets in osm, with a caveat that we include an attribution statement: Contains data sourced from Land Information New Zealand. Crown Copyright reserved. Land Information New Zealand gives no warranty in relation to the data, including its accuracy, reliability and suitability and accepts no liability whatsoever in relation to any loss, damage or other costs relating to the use of any data, any compilations, derivative works or modifications of the data. this is a huge data set, with a lot of very useful information. it will immediately bring road coverage (currently very poor) for the entire country up to 100%, and may include property information for every land title in the country, which then opens the door for other open data sets, such as zenbu.co.nz (business listings) the key is the attribution at present there is no method for attributing data in osm, so this is a call to all: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please Put the characters as a set of virtual roads on any empty area (preferably owned by linz ;-), and position map to this point and zoomfactor for very first access to data? It's a pity there's no redirect, as in HTML. jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
GSoC Freerunner
I'd like to ask - what is probability of Greerunner hardware to be ready by the summer? (aka Will I have my Freerunner when GSoC starts?) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC Freerunner
I (not affiliated with OM inc. at all) would say it's very probable, 90% or so that the gta02 will be selling at the begin of june. I'm looking forward to it! Edwin Lock On 3/18/08, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to ask - what is probability of Greerunner hardware to be ready by the summer? (aka Will I have my Freerunner when GSoC starts?) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
2008/3/18, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, it plays many closed, proprietary formats out-of-the-box, but none of the open formats like ogg vorbis, ogg theora, flac, speex, dirac. So it does not play any of my music out-of-the-box, and I'd prefer to support vendors that support those formats. You're speaking with forked tongue here: no other device plays all those out of the box either, including full Linux desktops. I find it very hard to believe you read what people are writing, are not troll or whatever. Linux desktops do play the open formats I mentioned, that's the benefit from using open formats. Also some music devices support open audio formats like the mentioned Vorbis and FLAC. I mainly use Vorbis. store my media in 15 different formats just so I can say I'm using an open format. If I can't drag and drop the same file onto each and every one of my devices and have it play perfectly, I'm not going to bother. I use only 2 formats, and they are both open. Your problem is using products that do not support open formats. That's why I'm only buying hardware that supports open formats, so I don't get into the format hell where every proprietary codec owners (mp3, aac, wma...) wants their format to be the one everyone uses, and no-one, especially any open product, can support them all (or any of them) since all require license fees. Open formats would solve the problem. And lossless formats are a joke. They use such prodigious amounts of storage space that there's really no point at all. Just use the original media! Off-topic, but CDs are much more cumbersome to use, and yes I mostly use lossy format (Vorbis) instead of FLAC when I use music I've copied from my CDs. I also buy music in FLAC and transcode it to Vorbis for mobile devices. Ogg support is a few taps of the stylus away for IT OS2008. The point was, again, that the vendor does not _support_ it or other open formats, which is far more important than how easy it's to install programs/support manually. I already stated it as clearly as I could it. You're way exaggerating the situation. You also deliberately left out xvid, which OS2008 plays through mplayer, also only a few taps away. Xvid is MPEG-4 which equals to patent-encumbered format that requires license fees, so it's not open/free format so I didn't mention it because I'm not interested in it. Vaporware is not the way to attract customers. It seems to have very strongly attracted you according to the amount of stuff you keep on posting and repeating. -Timo ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
This isn't another negative post about the delays, I promise. I have loosely followed this project since somewhere around the middle of last year. There were delays, they didn't tell/inform us. It was very frustrating because I was in a situation like yours...I really needed a new phone and I wanted to wait it out. My honest suggestion is to not wait, but go out and get a phone that will either make you happy now or just one that can live with. I'm currently *extremely* happy with my N95! Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. Besides, now that I am not in need of a phone I can be more supportive and fell less compelled to complain. Also, having a second phone is going to be a good thing in case you manage to somehow screw up the software. Last thing, I don't want to hear the I can't afford two new phones argument. You are looking at dropping $400 on a phone...so another ~$25-100 is NOT that much of a difference. -Original Message- From: Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Delayed another 6 months is a deal breaker for me. If I can get a Freerunner that is hardware stable, makes phonecalls and does most phone functions in a month or two, I'll be fine, otherwise I'm gonna have to start looking at other devices. My current phone is on it's last leg and it's time to upgrade. - Original Message From: Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 4:53:22 PM Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? JW wrote: On 14/03/2008, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/tcoms/news/articles/20017514053.html Please, PLEASE tell me this is not true? Or at least it's the consumer version that's delayed? Is this just not sowing seeds of realism along previous lines...? FreeRunner hardware release in spring 08. Polished software not available til much later I guess it comes down to your definition of slightly. To me slightly earlier than 6 months from now is more like 5 months from now, not 1 or 2 months from now. That would put the gta02 dev release into august. However, this article doesn't have a direct quote from a FIC representative, so something may have been lost in the retelling. I'm looking forward to some clarification of this, as I was under the impression that gta02 hardware was projected for availability in the next few months. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I'd rather have a solid device 6 months down the line than a faulty device in 1 month. I agree 100% with Andy. I don't want to buy a device and discover a major issue a month after that. I don't want to have to wait for GTA02.1 or to have to buy a new GTA03 3 months after GTA02 comes out You are all doing a great job. Thanks so much. Fred ++ i'm too cheap to buy a product that doesn't work, when i can be patient and have one that does Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone. You would need it because you want to hack it. Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a clue what this is all about. It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet. But this is something the community needs to make it happen. The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone! Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers. And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. Since it is already rather stabele at the moment. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
I have to chime in here, I was trying to resist. :) OpenMoko Inc. is a company that, right now, is treading unfamiliar waters. On one hand, they're a newcomer to the phone market so they don't have name recognition yet so they need to generate buzz in order to get the word out around their product. At the same time, they're made up of hackers who value the freedom and the openness of Free Software and have been applying that mentality to their business model. When a bug was found in hardware, it's relayed to us. The problem is that the rest of the world isn't ready for that. The general media isn't used to HEARING about a product before it's almost out the door. OpenMoko Inc has the RARE burden here of building hype for a product, keeping true to the hacker community who demands transparency and pleasing the consumers that will in the end buy it's product. I think the resentment in general is caused by conflicting paradigms - most people read and article and expect a product in 6 weeks. I won't exactly fault OpenMoko here but they should have counted on that. I understand fully what people are saying - I resisted buying a Neo1973 because I knew a better version was on the horizon. At the same time, it's the user's fault as well for making the assumption that a project that breaks all the rules would follow the rules. :) What ultimately got my $$$ was self-evaluation of why OpenMoko was important to me at all - Freedom. The media is hyping OpenMoko as the iPhone killer and a LOT of people are interested in it for that reason. Since OpenMoko Inc. hasn't exactly been... willing to correct that assumption (for obvious reasons) I think, like GNU/Linux, the entire point is being lost. OpenMoko is a phone powered by Free Software - if you want that, buy it, you won't find another phone that meets that criteria. OpenMoko today is not the iPhone killer. When you see it on a store shelf, of see a friend with one and personally believe it's the iPhone killer, THEN you should buy it as the iPhone killer. But since I got the point of OpenMoko - Freedom - I didn't feel like I was spending money on what OpenMoko is today. I spent money to ensure that Freerunner would come out because I have faith that what OpenMoko will be next year. At the same time, OpenMoko is also a software community. Sometimes people get defensive when something they've invested time and energy into is under attack but at the same time criticism IS as important in many ways as plaudits. Companies make mistakes, but what really retains customers is how they respond to those mistakes. Myself, as a paying customer of FIC/OpenMoko, I'm confidant that they're working on ways to make my experience better. By keeping true to the goals of openness and freedom, they're building hype. And while I am reluctant to phrase it this way, I'm not one to be nice for the sake of it - the message of freedom has sold SKUs and most of the feature complaints are coming from people who haven't put any money behind their rants. Whom do you THINK they're going to cater to given that? Viva Libre! -Kevin Dean On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Tilman Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathon Suggs wrote: Why? Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely polished anyway. So rather than get all frustrated (and build some resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not when you are ready for the hardware. You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone. You would need it because you want to hack it. Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a clue what this is all about. It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet. But this is something the community needs to make it happen. The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone! Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers. And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue. Since it is already rather stabele at the moment. Regards Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
GSoC Interest
Dear Openmoko Community, On Monday, I saw that the Openmoko mentoring application was accepted by the Google Summer of Code program. I am considering applying as a student for the 2008 Google Summer of Code to work on the Openmoko project. I have read over the mailing lists and looked at the wiki page for GSoC [1], and feel that I would make a good candidate for working on some of the projects. The question I would like to throw out there, is which project does the community think is most desirable, and that someone would be willing to mentor me on? First, I would like to formally introduce myself and tell you a little bit about my background. My name is Mark Schneider and I live in Iowa, USA. I have been interested in the project for some time now, and was finally able to save up enough money to buy a Neo1973 this past winter. I have been using desktop Linux for about 7 years, and embedded (Denx [2], not OpenEmbedded) Linux and U-Boot for 2 years. I have a BS in Computer Engineering from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and am currently attending Iowa State University pursuing my masters. I have worked in embedded field for 2 years, which is where I have gained most of my experience with embedded Linux and U-Boot on the PPC platform. I would like to leverage my past experience and current schooling to help the Openmoko platform stabilize. Since most of my experience is in hardware and low level software (device drivers and kernel hacking), I think my skills would be best used there, however, I would not be apposed to working in higher level middleware. Initially, I had wanted to write an open source device driver for the GPS device in the Neo1973 that would provide a standard NMEA output which gpsd could interpret. However, I see that the Freerunner will be getting a new GPS device, so this may no longer be necessary. Other ideas that I saw on the GSoC wiki page that I thought might be of interest: Ad hoc communication via Bluetooth/WLAN Cooperative Differential GPS Accelerometer Gestures My willingness to work on the project is not conditional on whether my application gets accepted. I would like to work regardless of Google supporting me. If there are any other projects that you think would be good, please let me know. I would like to discuss this more before I submit my application. Email works well, or you can occasionally find me on #openmoko under the handle 'queueRAM'. Regards, Mark Schneider [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2008 [2] http://www.denx.de/wiki/DULG/ELDK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Metal case [was: Application idea: Bicycle computer]
How about a case that's part metal and part plastic? Make it plastic just around the antennas (which, IIRC are at the 'ends' of the phone) and metal everywhere else? Heck, it could end up having a *good* effect by being extra shielding between the antennas and the (noisy) electronics of the phone itself. --pj On Tuesday, Mar 18, 2008, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen writes: On 3/7/08, Erland Lewin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/3/6, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why do people want metal cases so much...???Features in wiki hardware wishlist too. My thought is aluminium = metal = faraday cage = stops gps, gsm, wifi, bt signals = BAD idea The back of the iPhone is mainly metal isn't it? Many attractive cell phones today have at least parts of their cases made of metal. Also, I read about someone (forgot where) trying to make a Faraday cage, but apparently it is quite difficult in practice. For an efficient cage you apparently need many meshes with holes in different sizes for different frequencies if I recall correctly. I guess this could be easily tested by putting a cell phone in a tin can and trying to call it... I don't think it is as easy as you think. Please correct me if I am wrong. For low frequencies the cage will have little effect, but for the wifi it is not easy to predict. It gets complicated with high freqs. And if it seems to work nicely when you test it without touching the phone, maybe it don't work so nice when you do??? I am no expert... just my thoughts -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: import of dataset for new zealand
On 18/03/2008, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a technical solution is sought, to display the corresponding information whenever linz-sourced data is being viewed. suggestions and comments, please Put the characters as a set of virtual roads on any empty area (preferably owned by linz ;-), and position map to this point and zoomfactor for very first access to data? It's a pity there's no redirect, as in HTML. the idea of using cookies to determine if it's first visit, and re-directing to the attribution page/showing a translucent overlay for a few seconds if it is, is an idea that intrigues me. is this possible, or something that osm would entertain doing? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Well Said! Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki? Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ? That's all I'm asking for. Somewhere I can go to, to see how the openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be fine. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
OM's unusual in the sense that they're asking us to do three things: 1. Invest $400-600 in them. 2. Use their device in such a personal way -- a cell phone is as much a part of my daily setup as my shoes or wrist watch. 3. Develop on it, in our usually too-rare spare time, unpaid. In exchange, they promise openness. And so far, where the product's concerned, I think they've held that part of the bargain. But, they've been really failing at expectations management. We are paying in 3 big ways here, so we are still customers. For the same reason why any other customer gets real tired of hearing It'll be done any time now, it's tiring to hear it from OM. No open-source project has ever worked well by treating its users as ungrateful leeches. Which is what I'm hearing from some of this community -- it's a great way to poison the well and *ruin* it for everyone. When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give is fix it yourself. That's how you lose users, who could have become contributors. It's how you *kill* open source projects. As they're unfunded, the only capital an open source project has its users. The criticism is valuable in and of itself. IMHO the best response for it is please file a bug report. They can do that, and they're getting involved in the community. And later, someone else who wants to contribute has a nice place to look for what to do. Two birds, one stone. As for Openmoko, please respect what we're putting into this venture. Without us, OM's just a raw piece of hardware with a marginal software stack, more expensive and less functional (in usable terms) than your off-the-shelf iPhone. The community is 90% of the value of your product, remember to spend some time working on it!! If you're not sure how, read up on some Guy Kawasaki. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Lally Singh wrote: When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give is fix it yourself. Clearly the words of someone who's never attempted to complain about the lack of a driver for their special hardware on the Linux kernel mailing list. Fix it yourself is actually a pretty common response in open source projects when the fix that's being demanded is a relatively low priority in the grand scheme of things. Fact is, there's never a shortage of things needing to be done, and the folks who are being paid to work on OpenMoko no doubt have a long, long list of things that they need to fix already. So your options amount to fix it yourself, do without or wait. That's the reality of open source projects, particularly those at an early stage, as OpenMoko is: if you're convinced that what you need is a high priority, then the expectation is that you'll put your money where your mouth is and start contributing. (Of course, if you'd prefer, you could go to a platform like the iPhone, so when you demand that you need to have, say, cut and paste capabilities, the response will effectively be, Tough or No, you don't.) I'd be interested in hearing about the open source projects you're familiar with, particularly those where the response is How high? when the demand is Jump! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh sheesh. Why are you trying so hard to poison this project? Read the rest of the response. I said the proper response is please file a bug report. Or shove it on a wishlist. Someone spent time trying to contribute to the project with their own ideas, and the last thing you want to do is throw it back in their face. At minimum, you'll throw away a user, at worst, you've lost a significant potential contributor. The wish list can be 10 gigabytes long, that's fine. As long as the user's been brought a little into the fold, and suddenly we have a bunch of nice little places for new developers to join in the project. A wish list (or bug report list) and a getting started with developing for project X is how you get people in. Open source projects are even more dependent on marketing in their day-to-day activities than regular commercial endeavors. Nobody's (usually) getting paid, nobody's *got* to do the work. All you have is making each other happy working together. Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in. I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Lally Singh wrote: Oh sheesh. Why are you trying so hard to poison this project? Oh, please. If you want to entertain me with rhetoric, put more effort into it. I'm not poisoning this project, I'm simply adding a note of actual reality here. If anything might have that effect, I'd imagine it'd be the persistent and unrealistic complaints about a project which has been more open and transparent than any hardware project I've ever seen. And, having worked at both Apple and Palm for a number of years, and having spent the past seven years in the cell phone industry, I've seen plenty of 'em. The fact is that the sort of response with which you're so unhappy is not unusual in open source projects at all. You're doing a lot of opining about what open source projects do without a lot of substantiation to back it up. All of this is not much different than the demands, many months ago, about Why can't you _just add WiFi_? to the GTA01, equally misinformed, equally unhelpful. Here's an idea: you want a wish list, and feel there's a pressing need for one, why don't you create it? It's, after all, the open source thing to do, right? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Michael Lally Singh wrote: Well Said! Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki? Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ? That's all I'm asking for. Somewhere I can go to, to see how the openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be fine. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members - we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong as they are right. My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to me. Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. This next statement is going to reflect poorly on the Debian community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them so that the bad is my burden not theirs... The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) You argue that every person treated rudely is a potential contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that notion of self-reliance, that do it yourself or it won't get done right mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being persistant. Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that right NOW, OpenMoko is a typical Free Software project. Fine. cool. When OpenMoko goes mass market it will NOT be a typical project. All of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY have achieved critical mass they didn't set out to be Free... GNU, which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS in time. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what the community does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the minimalist or leave things out and offend the people who want thing A. A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same do it yourself mentlality, allows the use to do what matters to them, and ignore the community. Democracy is a beautiful principal if you can ignore the fact that the majority is not always right. If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in. I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way. With all of my criticism, I beleive that community is critical to the development of ANYTHING, and Free Software projects specifically. I'm
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lally, This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then. I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here. :) We, the openmoko community demand you communicate with us. We complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters. I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear communication issues. One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner debut. As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally raises the point of the community responding here with a read the topic response but OMi should really be directing how they want that handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a question we're all tired of answering, or have those interested people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend their money on this project? I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that what is said in the name of OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of the project. There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying I've sent out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share means something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means is that updates are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every telling of the news. I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is either up-to-date or clearly marked out of date. The goal here will be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as knowing of the some transistor is vital or just helpful for the future. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
I'm not too current on electronics manufacturing, but am I correct in assuming this PVT is more of a ramping-up, factory thing? Or is it more of an electronics sourcing/tooling sort of thing? Also, good luck with the process and I hope it won't be too long before the fun part of being a community manager starts ;) Matt On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher: The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields. The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient. Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status
Matt Manjos wrote: I'm not too current on electronics manufacturing, but am I correct in assuming this PVT is more of a ramping-up, factory thing? Or is it more of an electronics sourcing/tooling sort of thing? PVT is typically the final test build before actual hardware production starts. It's done on the real factory line, and the devices produced are (in theory) identical to the ultimate product. If they go to an A6, I'd expect another PVT run to prove things out with that before they start making the devices in earnest. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community