Re: Fwd: Why do I want WiFi?
On Thursday 18 January 2007 06:12, Alexander McLeay wrote: What sort of speed does this give you? Is it actually good enough for It's assumed Bluetooth 2.0 EDR will allow about 2mbit. VoIP over Bluetooth IP to be practical? Plenty fast for that. I think Speex can run on as little as 2kbyte/s. pgp3XbVhMWESy.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
On Thursday 18 January 2007 03:25, Renaissance Man wrote: your device is intelligent enough it will seamlessly swap between the two, using WiFi when it's available and GSM when it's not (and vice versa), just as Truphone does. Seamless swapping needs the carriers' help. And they won't do it for free, rest assured. pgp4bG83WmEJN.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Am 18.01.2007 um 08:47 schrieb Gabriel Ambuehl: On Thursday 18 January 2007 07:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what it is about the guy who posted this thread, but I really think that he's got some sort of talent for getting people talking. I Well, my impression was that the second post was very provocative in the sense: This is not innovative unless there is abc. And I need abc.. This presses a button on human psychology (especially engineers) to defend our own view and explain why they already are interested and see it as innovation without abc or discuss why abc is not so important. Basically it is a fight about importance of a feature. And there, everybody has a different view and opinion - you can't measure it without having people discuss. And, as a former product manager I have learned that you simply can't judge the importance of a single feature. It is always the combination and relative importance at a certain timeframe for a certain target group willing to pay a maximum total price or cost of ownership. And all this depends on the degree of innovativeness you want to give a product. Apple e.g. decided to be very innovative (in the perceptions of the world press) and add 4/8GB flash, probably 256MB RAM a device position sensor but leave out the GPS receiver, have an average display resolution and have the battery not replaceable. And worst: not have an open platform. The result of this is the $499/$599 price tag. Is this now more or less inovative? Usually, as a company you learn from such discussions and then you have to simply (well, it isn't in reality) make a decision to add the feature now or in the next generation. Now, this was some Meta-statement, not an answer... So, let's cross fingers that the devices appear soon (whichever level they have - the next release will be better) and start developing new things. Nikolaus Schaller ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gaming oportunities
Engin Erenturk wrote: I'm a game developer from Istanbul/Turkey. the thing i wonder most about open openmoko is the gaming oportunities. as i read from mails today, it will have a 640x480 vga screen. Is there any predictions about the gamşing oportunities of this device? It is lacking 3D acceleration so it's not really a hot gaming machine. Bluetooth, however, enables us to use an extern joystick like this one http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/bt-gamepad-en.shtml There are a few games that work well with touchscreen like Lemmings or Tower Defense ( http://novelconcepts.co.uk/FlashElementTD/ ). Adaptions of board games would probably also be worthwile. Some graphical adventure games will work just fine (I'm expecting a ScummVM port). And I'm sure someone is just itching to get Freeciv running... -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: ipaq sleeves as an example for hardware extensions
Christopher Heiny wrote: On Wednesday 17 January 2007 14:37, kenneth marken scribbled in crayon on the back of a kid's menu: Christopher Heiny wrote: On Wednesday 17 January 2007 13:48, David Schlesinger scribbled in crayon on the back of a kid's menu: On 1/17/07 1:44 PM, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hmm, i seems to be getting a bit of flak about this on osnews when it comes how bulky the phone can be. err, do people expect long lasting wifi from something with the bulk of a samsung ultraslim slider? We enjoyed the WiFi sleeves for the Compaq iPaqs when I was working at Palm. Took the battery life of the device down to about forty minutes. I used an iPaq for a year. Even with a sleeve with an extra battery in it, power was in short supply. And the darn sleeve was so bulky, it was like carrying a brick in my pocket. something tells your trying to say that sleeves is a bad idea... Gosh! Was it that transparent? :-) Actually, I don't know if sleeves themselves are inherently a bad idea. The iPaq's sleeves certainly sucked, but it's entirely possible that better implementations are possible. true. the biggest problem right now is that the usb port is unpowered. therefor any optential sleeve will have to carry its own power supply. outside of that, most of the hardware needed have become very small since the ipaq. question is tho if the fexibility afforded by a sleeve system is worth the extra bulk. yes the ideal device is something the thickness of a credit card that can house the computing power of a nuclear physics super cluster. but until one hits that spot, there will allways be a compromise between size and functions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 7:41 am, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Thursday 18 January 2007 00:09, Renaissance Man wrote: Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the killer app. WiFi enabled Nokia E Series can do that. As can do many Winmobile devices. no organization that gets it is hardly true. Thanks for cutting off my last paragraph: Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too: truphone.com (which works with the Nokia E Series and N80s, as I mentioned) The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi easy. The only organisation that seems to get it is Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number. Truphone get it. Nobody else does yet. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
speex codec down to 2kbit/s instead of 2kbyte/s Re: Fwd: Why do I want WiFi?
Salve Gabriel! Gabriel Ambuehl schrieb am Donnerstag, den 18. Januar 2007 um 08:55h: VoIP over Bluetooth IP to be practical? Plenty fast for that. I think Speex can run on as little as 2kbyte/s. Ohhhmmm I've tested 1kByte/s bewteen two asterisks this is a quite good quality. Remember that GSM codecs use 9600 or 14400 Baud Wide range of bit rates available (from 2 kbit/s to 44 kbit/s) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speex I think you mean 2kbit/s instead of 2kbyte/s. But with less then 1kB/s I would expect reduced quality. Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Since everyone is drooling about the next iteration of the Neo which is exptected to include WiFi, I figured I'd add a request for USB 2.0. This allows us to use a USB VGA adapter (http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/06/08/add_a_monitor_using_usb/ - Linux driver available!). A VGA port enables the Neo2 to replace a laptop for doing presentations (in some cases) and you could even watch movies stored on its microSD card (or streamed by a BluOnyx) on a battery powered HMD! :-) While you're at it, please include some kind of hardware graphics acceleration to speed up video playback and maybe allow cooler games... -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Sven Neuhaus wrote: Since everyone is drooling about the next iteration of the Neo which is exptected to include WiFi, I figured I'd add a request for USB 2.0. This allows us to use a USB VGA adapter (http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/06/08/add_a_monitor_using_usb/ - Linux driver available!). A VGA port enables the Neo2 to replace a laptop for doing presentations (in some cases) and you could even watch movies stored on its microSD card (or streamed by a BluOnyx) on a battery powered HMD! :-) and make sure the port is a powered one this time round ;) While you're at it, please include some kind of hardware graphics acceleration to speed up video playback and maybe allow cooler games... -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Subject: Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0 Date: Thu 18 Jan 07 10:39:18AM +0100 Quoting kenneth marken ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): and make sure the port is a powered one this time round ;) Yes, and do not forget to include a heavy-duty carrying strap for the truck battery that we will have to carry around for all these wonders to work 8-) carlo -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Question about kernel level hacking
On 1/17/07 9:50 AM, Alessandro Iurlano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will the Hacker's Lunchbox be available at the phone launch time or will we have to wait? Thanks and keep up the VERY good work! I'm really looking forward to the launch date! It will be ready. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07 2:41 AM, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At first, the geek perspective is oh man I want one of those because it's open source, true. But tomorrow the general public's perspective may be Oh man I want one of those because I can run CommunitasticoMoko 1.0. You may ask, what's CommunitasticoMoko going to do? Beats the hell out of me, and that's the point. Great comment. This is _exactly_ what makes me so excited about this device, too! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07 3:37 AM, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21, period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350. In our defense, those phones are carrier subsidized. This makes a huge difference. Try to walk into a store in the States and buy a device without a contract. You'll know what I mean. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of my phone calls are made at work and home, both of which already have WiFi, Then for everbody's sake use the 350$ to buy two simple WiFi VOIP-phones, one for home, one for work and stop whining. Here for example: http://www.voipsupply.com/product_info.php?products_id=802 Even after getting two VOIP-phones, you'll still have 110$ left over to get a cheap gsm phone even. If you think openmoko is all about starting a hardware-revolution, you're in the wrong place, sorry. openmoko is the software-platform. FIC (and in the future hopefully others as I understand it) are building the phones. There will eventually be all kinds of different hardware configurations, I expect. From Everything and the kitchen sink, to economic models. Being the first to offer something also has very, very little to do with whether you're going to get big market share, especially if it is something that is so relatively easily (from an innovation POV) copied as a wifi-chip. And as soon as the manufacturers with greater market penetration introduce a device with the exact same feature that you claimed would differentiate your own device, you've completely lost. As has been said before, the revolutionary aspects of the openmoko lie in providing an open software platform - while that is not a direct feature to regular users, it enables many, many positives. linux is not the number one server-os on the internet, because everybody using it needed the sources to hack on the kernel, sure, but having everything open enabled many of the benefits that did finally lead to success (stability, security, extensebility, compatibility, wide variety of software etc.). Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the revolutionary aspect of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely and utterly. I made this comparison the other day on irc, it's like (let me be very loose here with the historical facts to make a point) the french revolution is starting with the goal to establish the first democracy in the contemporary western world, and then there's guys bitching that they are using pitchforks, when they could be using trebuchets or slingshots, and how therefor that whole revolution is a lost cause and not worth taking part in. You also seem to lack the capacity to understand the fundamental argument people are making. _Nobody_ is saying wifi is useless or unimportant. That is not the question, but it seems to be the only thing you're ever answering. (Just about) _Everybody_ (certainly including the openmoko and FIC people) would prefer to have Wifi _if_ everything else was equal. Now that last qualifier is the fundamental argument you seem to be missing: if everthing else was equal. Here's a message from the reality-based world: Reality doesn't work that way. Everything has trade-offs, and that point has been repeatedly made above, and has been ignored by you. Adding wifi to the first generation device would come at a very very high cost, certainly now, that the decision has already been made for a while, but to a similar degree even at the point the decision was made. Do you understand the concept of cost? And it's not just monetary cost I am talking about. Let me illustrate it: Another absolutly revolutionary feature that would make everybody want to buy the phone would be to have a star trek like transporter and replicator. It would be endlessly cool, you would just beam over and talk face to face saving a whole bunch of money. Not to mention the savings on food. However on the cost-side it would mean that the time to market for the device would have just been lengthened by an indeterminate amount of time. Now, when it comes to make the decision you have to decide, you have to weigh the plus and minus side. While the plus side is alsmost cool to infinity, the minus side makes any reasonable person think: well, let's not worry about those features now, and get the revolution going first, we can always add replicators and transporters later. Now, if you insist on keeping this discussion about adding wifi to the 1st gen. device going, at least make an effort to answer to people's arguments about the trade-offs and cost involved. From your answers it seems as if adding wifi only comes at the cost of raising the end-price for a few bucks. Evidently that is patently false (or rather incomplete). It would also mean: - higher price (as mentioned) - higher energy usage, less standby time - all the time spent on getting wifi to work, is time that the developers cannot spend on any of the other cool features of the software - all the time getting a proper VOIP application working is time that the developers cannot spend on any of the other cool features of the software - no devices for many interested developers for an additional few months - no other people starting to write cool software for an additional few months - no testing from end-users for an additional few
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote: The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi easy. The only organisation that seems to get it is Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number. Nokia E Series is cheaper than a N80. As are many wifi enabled Winmobile phones. And considering that those two options are pretty much the ONLY WiFi phones actually shipping Truphone is kinda besides the point for anyone but Nokia N Series users. pgpi4CxyyeNcK.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote: Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number. Just out of curiosity, did you actually try this ? I would be very curious to find out how do they accomplish this from a technical standpoint. A sort of auto-redial via GSM I can understand, but _seamless_ switching without carrier assist (not to mention the delays of connection establishing) is quite a feat if they can do it. The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi easy. Why should they risk ? They are selling millions of handsets through carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts. Take the iPhone, and let's see what would have happened if they 'got it'. Add some $ to counter the costs of wifi (not just the HW itself, but for the whole feature), discard the carrier subsidy and now you have a carrier free funky wifi don't leave the country phone that has to be recharged daily and costs 800-1000$. Doesn't impress me all that much. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Gaming oportunities
Sven Neuhaus wrote: It is lacking 3D acceleration so it's not really a hot gaming machine. I don't think it is a problem. I got an Nokia N-Gage: it runs many 3D games, but has no 3d acceleratio, just laying on the CPU 100Mhz RISC architecture. So it can be done with OpenMoko. Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 01:49]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:42 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Renaissance Man writes: Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi. It doesn't. But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a successor soon that does. Or how about guarantee success by giving it WiFi. This is all it needs to be a revolution from day one. Not really. There are no acceptable WiFi solution for the Neo currently (power consumption + open source driver), which means requiring WiFi would imply waiting months or a year for the phone. While I can certainly appreciate the value of a sipphone, and there will probably be such a thing on the Neo, just BT based, instead of Wifi, it's certainly not a killer feature. Technically, the Neo is revolution, because it moves from phones itemized feature lists as a comparision away. It basically gives the enduser the possibility to do new features. In fact, the Neo is revolutionary enough that I don't expect it to come bundled by network operators in the next years. Just the currently initial hardware gives way to much support for stupid stuff (from the operators view) to cut into their revenues. One new idea, because you've brought up VoIP. One nice thing with VoIP providers is, that they usually let one change the call forwarding target via a Website. Now consider that (at least herearound) calls to landlines are cheap, nearly free in most plans. Guess a phone that automatically changes the forwarding target to the number you've dialed and dials a landline number. Nothing that I couldn't do today with my Nokia. But it's awkward. Intergrated into the normal dialer, that would make something really useful. Considering how cell operators at least in Europe are charging unreasonable (up to 100x more expensive than from a landline) fees for long distance calls, I can see how the above scenario must scare them. Basically, what I'm trying to express here is, that there are many many ways to least-cost-route calls. Not just VoIP. Especially, considering that most hotspots need a webpage login, which would using it costly and bothersome (without some cleverness on the phone). Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 08:44]: On Thursday 18 January 2007 02:05, Renaissance Man wrote: I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's marketing PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko is just yet another victim of the carrier monopoly on mobile communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi really ever come to the device? Since you pay for the whole price, why would the carrier's have any say in its features? Well, if you want to have some market penetration, you need to consider it. The only alternative is to create such a great product with the community, that non-geeks will pay cash for it. When they can get other cool smartphones for free (because the carrier pay for it). Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 02:08]: Well, call me when it has WiFi. I just don't think this thing's going to get the start it should have got. Well, it won't get a start no matter what endusers will buy/use it or not. The first phase is where it's critical that all the itchy developers get their hands on it. And most of these bitch only on low volume about shortcomings. (WiFi, powered USB port, keyboard, EDGE/UMTS support, ...) btw, you can get WiFi if you desire so much, just use a battery powered power injector and a WiFi USB stick. I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's marketing PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko is just yet another victim of the carrier monopoly on mobile communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi really ever come to the device? Yes, the carrier monopoly game is sick. One often overlooked symptom of this sickness is, that I've often found items that are cheaper to me when I roam than to the native population. E.g. some time ago, the German C't magazine suggested using prepaid Italian SIMs for data access in Germany, as they were cheaper to use than any plan offered in Germany. Other curiousities that have no place in a market: Sending SMS with my German phone in Germany (no roaming) is more expensive then sending them with my Austrian phon in Germany (roaming). So yes, the monopoly markets are bad for customers. And if one looks nearer on them, they certainly show all kinds of warty symptoms of monopolies. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 02:20]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote: I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than revolutionary. But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a typical end-user's point of view. Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on mobile communications to effectively zero, including talking to my parents who live on the other side of the planet, is revolutionary. But you can do that already without VoIP. Believe me, because I'm a little bit a professional nomad between Austria and Germany, so I know the drill. -) calling cards. -) call forwarding from a landline. -) dual-number SIMs (in Germany some carriers offer a landline number for a mobile that is cheap if the mobile is in it's homezone, add to this callforwarding to the real mobile which is free, you get a mobile that is callable at landline prices) Basically, offering plugins and support to use all these items easy in everyday operation, you get your GBP45 = GBP5 revolution. Actually, these options do have the benefit of working whereever I am, while free (that's what you imply with GBP0) hotspots are not that often. I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms of the phone manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting 6-12months lead and market share in an unexploited but growing market (Open Source Mobile Phones). Killer app: a computer program that is so useful or desirable that it proves the value of some underlying technology I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other around the world effectively for free. But it does not. BTW, if you want just this feature, look for some of the highend Nokia phones (they do have WiFi and sip client on one piece of hardware *g*) The revolution won't have people saying, oh man, I want one of those, because it's open source. They'll be saying, oh man, I want one of those because I can communicate with a mobile device for a pittance (open source will simply be one way of doing it). No, the revolution will be, when people will see what is possible without having to pay to much attention to the carriers. Believe, I've done very interesting things that people have deemed impossible (well the techs at the carrier's hotline where shocked) with a completly locked down Sidekick. You cannot believe how itchy I'm to do redo some of my stuff properly. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: X11 and/or Framebuffer
On ke, 2007-01-17 at 17:48 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ xdpyinfo [...] XVideo This peaks my curiosity; do we get XVideo scaling on the graphics processor without stressing the CPU? Colorspace conversion? Thanks for the info. -- Mikko J Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Helsinki ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:37 am, David Schlesinger wrote: The NEO's not _cheap_ ... I was talking about value-for-money cheap, not capital cost. In this sense the Neo is cheap. I just happen to be in the market for a smart phone, but there's nothing in my argument that precludes someone making a plain unlocked phone with GSM/WiFi VoIP. I really doubt that [near zero-cost mobile communication will be revolutionary] ... Cheap phone service ... is one of the least interesting ... When I worked at Apple, I had a sign up on my office for a while that read, When the revolution comes, things will be _different_! (Not _better_, just_different_.) Well Steve Jobs talks about the iPod being a revolution, and the Mac. Neither of which were the first of their kind. They simply got the package right. That's what made them revolutionary. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:15]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote: You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the price of a NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the world, I guess I must not have been paying attention. No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM+VoIP via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate cheaply with. These are already existing, albeit they are highend phones currently. I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other around the world effectively for free. Ditto. Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See previous email for more detail. Nope it's not. VoIP is not a mobile phoning solution, it's a nomadic phoning solution. The difference is startling, even if many seem not to grasp it. Basically, WiFi is not a setup-less protocol. Commercial (and many non-commercial too) hotspots require you to log in. Plus there is now way to be sure if the network connection is ok for VoIP (be it firewalls, bandwidth problems, jerky connections). So basically, it allows users that want to go through the pain to take their landline with them, whereever (hispeed internet capable) they are. Please also consider that using hotspots on the run is quite expensive. In my personal experience, I almost never bother. The only times are when I need something to do latency free and/or I forgot to bring my mobile-warrior pack with my laptop. To put it bluntly, consider my poor guy, sitting in the Frankfurt/M train station, wanting to call his wife in Austria. What is the cheapest way to go at it? Hmm. Calling directly from my German mobile ~60EUR per hour. Calling from my Mobile via Calling card ~4.20EUR per hour. Calling via free VoIP via hotspot 12EUR per hour. It's worse, because the first two options are billed per minute, while the T-Mobile hotspot bills at 10 minute increments. So a VoIP phone allows cheap calling where you've got a free hotspot. E.g. at home. But at home, I can just use my landline directly to call cheap. And everywhere I've got a landline, I can call the 0800 free call dialin of my calling card provider. So VoIP as cheap call feature helps only in a strictly limited number of places: free hotspots without landlines that can be used to call 0800. E.g. some hotels have free WiFi. Good. But the same hotels have a phone in every room that I can use for free to access a 0800 number. Bad. So, while it's cool, and it has many nice uses, I don't think that VoIP/WiFi on a mobile is a killer feature. Actually, I don't see that many other uses for WiFi on a phone either (I don't use it much on my Nokia I admit). Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:42]: On 1/17/07 6:12 PM, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote: You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the price of a NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the world, I guess I must not have been paying attention. No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM +VoIP via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate cheaply with. The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21, period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350. Well, I personally do consider it on my personal upper limit for a smartphone. It's nicely priced, because most smartphones herearound cost around that much when subventioned by the carrier. (depends upon the plan). But you'd have to be making a lot of expensive calls before a phone like the NEO would pay for itself on the basis of having VoIP capabilities. (Oh, did I mention that the $350 wouldn't probably be $350 anymore...? You'd have to pay for the part, plus the new boards, new test cycle, etc., etc., I'd guess we're talking about taking the cost to you, the end user, up to $400, $425, once everything's said and done. But it's okay: you'll have that extra six months to save up!) Ditto. Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See previous email for more detail. I really doubt that. Cheap phone service, out of the many scenarios I can envision for a more mobility-capable future, is one of the least interesting. I find identity-and-location-based services a lot more intriguing... Exactly. Especially, because one can achieve cheap calls today without resorting to VoIP on phones. see my other email, VoIP on the run, via commercial hotspots is almost bound to be more expensive than simpler solutions. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. And this is said as if windows mobile phones like moto q, blackjack and pocket PC phones wont allow this. Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. Is this just a geek issue? It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:37]: On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:00 PM, David Schlesinger wrote: The revolution evidently has a bunch of people who don't see that the value of half (or ninety-five one-hundredths) of a loaf exceeds that of no loaf at all. I wouldn't take this very seriously. Despite the lack of WiFi, which I definitely agree is a minus, I am going to get one of these phones as soon as I can. The thing I'm paranoid about right now is whether or not GPRS works over my t-mobile (US) network. WiFi would be really nice, but it's by no means a deal-breaker. Actually, it probably means an extra Well, if it's GSM+GPRS and nothing fancy, than yes. You need to figure out the APN (access point name), but techs at the callcenter or your current phone should give you that. (And if it's really T-mobile built, not bought, the APN will almost certainly be the same as in other T-Mobile networks). That's it. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
Salve hank! On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, hank williams wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. And this is said as if windows mobile phones like moto q, blackjack and pocket PC phones wont allow this. Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. Is this just a geek issue? It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. Ok I will try to anwer in 3 minutes. Your question is a good one and worth a better answer - but to convince *average* users it needs some real examples and solutions, so convincing *average* users is not *yet* the time. Or? Security - the Neo1973 will offer a trustworthy environemt - linux-vserver will offer jails/sandboxes for different processes/aplications - VPN and SMS/Email/Telefonieencryption will be possible Non-Networkprovider dominated, user-orientated design: - white/black list for incomming calls/sms - answering machine on your phone - voice menues for anknown or anonymous caller and much more will be possible. So please listen more to this list, and you will see that it isn't about you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone Beside the point that an *average* user doesn't see the potential of open source on a mobile - what are your experiances and demands on a smart phone? When you look at the devices that you know or use(d): - What does you miss most? - What does you hate most? - What does you like/used most? And please feel free and very welcome to chare your ideas/questions on this list - your question is a very good one and I hope that others could spend a little more time to anwer you now. Greetings Rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:17 am, Sencer wrote: Then for everbody's sake use the 350$ to buy two simple WiFi VOIP- phones, one for home, one for work and stop whining. That won't make my communications easier, that just makes it more complicated. One way or another, probably within the next few months, I'm going to have one mobile communications device, with one phone number, that allows me to talk for free to my friends in London and family across the world when I'm in range of a freely accessible WiFi connection (which is much of the day). Just wish it had been the Neo, because it's such a great product otherwise. Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the revolutionary aspect of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely and utterly. To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely. Now you say you are willing to sell body parts to get that feature. In my book that proves that you've completely lost it and do not operate from a reality-based world-view. It's called a figure of speech. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. And this is said as if windows mobile phones like moto q, blackjack and pocket PC phones wont allow this. In my mind, it's not just the *additional* applications. It's the kernel and all low-level stuff that you (or others for you) can hack and replace. The dialer application and the bluetooth driver that comes with it, and any other software, can be adapted and/or replaced. And it can be done legally, with all the hardware specs available (excepting of the GPS part perhaps). I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that that would be more difficult or impossible on a Windows mobile phone. Groetjes, Marnix ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
On Thursday 18 January 2007 09:54, Renaissance Man wrote: Seamless swapping needs the carriers' help. And they won't do it for free, rest assured. Already being done. See http://truphone.com Doesn't really say how it works. An all SIP solution doesnt really sound like it could ever be seamless with GSM. I'd really like to know just how this supposed to work, because if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. pgpgyyT5euxlZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
* hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 14:01]: Beside the point that an *average* user doesn't see the potential of open source on a mobile - what are your experiances and demands on a smart phone? When you look at the devices that you know or use(d): - What does you miss most? - What does you hate most? - What does you like/used most? well honestly my biggest issue with phones in general is not features but execution. The iPhone is a good example of executing well on features that have been around for years. My one concern with open source is that it is great at delivering features, but historically not great at UI. This is because big open source projects are often done by teams where everyone can do what they want. This tends to mean there is no singular unified design vision. This is fine for features for the most part because we can That's technically speaking an out-of-date vision of opensource develepment. I wouldn't consider KDE inconsistent. actually, one might argue that KDE does better then Windows based environments on this score. all more or less agree on how to implement wifi or an encryption scheme or whatever. Or if we disagree we can implement five different ways as APIs and let the market decide. But good UI doesn't work that way. I guess you haven't used the embedded Linux UIs. They are more consistent then some commercial phones. So the iPhone has a design czar - jobs - and that means that forward thinking design gets done in a unified way. This issue may not effect nope. You are assuming that it will be executed well. nobody has seen an iphone for long enough to fool around with it. From seeing the details, the iPhone is something that not even my wife will want to have, everything that I've seen till now suggests that it will be a nice (smart)phone, but not necessarily nicer than better existing phones, with an iPod embedded. And it will put the carriers interests in front of the users interests. OpenMoko, at least in the beginning, since a private company is doing the design. But when the design process becomes public, the features and design by committee thing might be an issue. It's the Linux-will-fork story all over. Empirical evidence suggests that your fear won't happen. But the bottom line is that my biggest problem with phones is that they are just not designed well. The pretty much all suck! Well, that's not helpful. Design a better, give hints, improvement ideas. It's hard to give you the perfect phone, because you don't specify what you want. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
* Jean-Philippe Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:16]: Hi Community A lot of stuff around WiFi these days - A feature that does _not_ seems to be even planned as of now! :) Why do I want WiFi? NOT to make expensive VoIP calls in airports - if I want to spend money in airports, there are plenty of other ways... I want WiFI so that the Phone is a real part of my network, allowing Sync's Backups, move/consultation of files over standard smb:// protocol: safe, fast, secure, you choose what to share what not. That you can do with BT well enough. I want WiFi to overcome the trouble of GPRS not being recognized/set up right with my local carrier (tell me about it: exotic phones are never acknowledged as data-capable by carriers), so I can apt-get over the network (cheaper, Setting up GPRS is rather a straightforward thing with GSM phones. You need the APN, and the dial string. The dialstring is a constant, that's it. (Ok, there are some potential options to be set at AT-command level, but I don't remember to have needed them ever) faster than over GPRS BTW), so I can get the online stuff I _need_ (mails, mainly. Ever tried to browse the internet over a Palm? useless.) Quite useful with a Nokia. (GPRS makes it no fun, EGPRS would be fun). I fear it's more a question of the client software than the network connection that you had. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
and make sure the port is a powered one this time round ;) and a standard master-device USB-A port at that http://www.heinex.dk/kabler/usb-a.jpg so that I can plug in my favorite USB items http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/8c58/ No seriously, USB-A would make so much more sense now that these things are becoming capable of computer-type work. Maybe a seperate 9V battery compartment for powering the USB hub, keeping it separate from the phone's battery? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
They recently received 25 million in funding too. Most answers to your questions are probably here: http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/blog.tru if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. Yeah, wouldn't it have been great if Neo rev1 could have taken advantage of it? The sooner Neo include WiFi the better in my view. Renaissance man On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:25 pm, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Thursday 18 January 2007 09:54, Renaissance Man wrote: Seamless swapping needs the carriers' help. And they won't do it for free, rest assured. Already being done. See http://truphone.com Doesn't really say how it works. An all SIP solution doesnt really sound like it could ever be seamless with GSM. I'd really like to know just how this supposed to work, because if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. Actually I think most people are saying, that you have full access to a) the hardware and b) to the sources of all applications that run on it. And not only do you have access to the source, but the freedom to change and redistribute the changed application. That's the deciding factor. 3rd party apps in general have been a distinct feature of every smartphone so far, the only reason it's being discussed today at all, is because Apple is disallowing it. Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. By average user, I assume you mean those people that do not program or administer complex software. Well, let me try it with an analogy: What benefit does somebody have from freedom, when he is not interested in making use of it (i.e. working the same job all his life, voting the same party no matter what, etc.) because his main objectives - feeding his family, doing X or doing Y - are equally possible under a repressive regime and in a free country? It's simple, you'll likely still be better of in the free country, because the freedom enables improvements that you will eventually benefit from, even if you never specifically worked (in a hands-on way) towards those specific interests. Now that doesn't mean that as soon as there is freedom, you automatically and directly are better of if you don't make use of it; it's merely the beginning of a process. So today, and for the 1st generation devices that run openmoko, you may (as an average user) not reap immediate benefits, but you will help enable a success through freedom, in that the other people that do have the interest and/or skill necessary to turn that freedom into a benefit for everybody. Is this just a geek issue? It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. For example the PIM/Messaging applications (which areguably are the core of a smaratphone) are not limited by what the device-makers are able and willing to develop. You could add sending SMS over HTTP, sending voice-mails via E-Mail, automatically sending notifications that you are delayed for appointments and for how long (by checking the calendar, the GPS coordinates, and the average speed of your movement). Now the point is not only, that it is possible to write these applications, but that the functionality can be seamlessly integrated into the existing base-applications, and everybody is able to benefit from it. With bluetooth and usb on board, there is a very real possibility of expanding the possibilites in a way that is simply not possible on windows mobile or symbian, because you simply cannot access certain aspects of the phone. As a simple example: Many older wifi-cards that can do WEP but can't do WPA are limited due to software, not hardware reasons. But given that you already paid for them there is no incentive to do that work. Similar with bluetooth functionality, many early phones (looks at nokia) only had a very limited support for certain bluetooth functionality (profiles), and that limitation was due to sotware reasons, not hardware reasons. And interested people that had the time and skill still couldn't do anything about it. People were simply stuck with a castrated phone. [Quoting from a later mail:] This is because big open source projects are often done by teams where everyone can do what they want. This tends to mean there is no singular unified design vision. That's not necessarily the case. In fact I know plenty of counter examples. Open source does not dictate _how_ the software is to be developed or designed. So when you say: But good UI doesn't work that way. that is correct, but it's not necessarily a statement about open source in general. But the bottom line is that my biggest problem with phones is that they are just not designed well. The pretty much all suck! Well, I do not think that open source is a huge enabled in that respect either. So while it doesn't necessarily have to be better or worse than closed source, the code-licence simply isn't a good indicator to judge the likely quality of the UI. Regards Sencer ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
On Thursday 18 January 2007 13:25, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Thursday 18 January 2007 09:54, Renaissance Man wrote: Seamless swapping needs the carriers' help. And they won't do it for free, rest assured. Already being done. See http://truphone.com Doesn't really say how it works. An all SIP solution doesnt really sound like it could ever be seamless with GSM. I'd really like to know just how this supposed to work, because if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. Hi, I was at their presentation at VON Berlin, and if I understand correctly, they will try to send an incoming call to your SIP UA first, and if it is unreachable they will forward it to your GSM line. The same goes for outgoing calls. I don't think they suggest that the same call would switch between hotspot / gsm / hotspot without interuption at the moment. You can sign-up for a free account if you have an S60 OS Nokia phone, from anywhere in the world basically. They seem to be in the 'give it all away for free to get some market-share' phase. Here's the presentation they gave: http://www.openser.org/events/2006-OpenSER-Summit/slides/openser-summit-2006_04_james.body_truphone-reversing-the-paradigm.pdf At the time the presentation did seems a little 'too good to be true' to me though, given that nobody at VON could manage to get their Nokia e-series phones to sync with the provided wifi, not even the people demoing the Nokia e61 at the Nokia stand... HTH Richard. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
* Paul Bohme [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 13:58]: Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Thursday 18 January 2007 09:54, Renaissance Man wrote: Seamless swapping needs the carriers' help. And they won't do it for free, rest assured. Already being done. See http://truphone.com Doesn't really say how it works. An all SIP solution doesnt really sound like it could ever be seamless with GSM. I'd really like to know just how this supposed to work, because if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. Perhaps if were drop the assumption that it would try to go from IP-based SIP call to GSM voice call. What if the phone were simply smart enough to go from wifi to GPRS - then it's more a matter of having the endpoints able to withstand an IP address change mid-call. Something like that could go BT-wifi-GPRS and back without missing a beat - assuming that each step of the way involved a working IP address and the software were smart enough.. Problem here, no GRPS is fast enough to handle the 100kbit/s upload needed. Even UMTS would be extremly stretched on this point. (UMTS-HSDPA would satisfy the requirements of VoIP sipphones.) And that all assumes that you can get an UMTS flatrate that allows for sipphones. (E.g. the Eplus one in Germany explicitly forbids VoIP ;) ) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:28]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:14 am, Jean-Philippe Monteiro wrote: Why do I want WiFi? ... NOT to make expensive VoIP calls in airports - if I want to spend money in airports, there are plenty of other ways... Yeah you could make expense GSM calls instead. Naturally you're much better off using WiFi when it's freely accessible, but of course if your device is intelligent enough it will seamlessly swap between the two, using WiFi when it's available and GSM when it's not (and vice versa), just as Truphone does. No, make cheap GSM calls. As I've pointed out, there are already plenty of options for cheap calls that work with any phone. Just make it have a suitable nice UI, and you are all set. I want WiFI so that the Phone is a real part of my network, allowing Sync's Backups, move/consultation of files over standard smb:// protocol: safe, fast, secure, you choose what to share what not. I think the iPhone's got it right on this one. Using WiFi for syncing when you can use a cable/dock makes more sense to me battery wise. ??? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fwd: Why do I want WiFi?
* Jean-Philippe Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 03:38]: On Thursday 18 January 2007 09:25, you wrote: Thankfully most of this can be done over Bluetooth. At least with linux computers you'll be able to access it as a network device, and you'll be able to run smb or sshfs albeit at reduced speed. Neos won't be islands, even when untethered from USB. :) - Chad I was not aware Bluethoot is Network-Capable - Haven't got one, neither on desktop or notebook, and believed Bluethoot was kinda USB-Wireless (wireless Keyboards, some games, send of vCard) not fully Ethernet-like. Then learn before you start to whine. BT even in the most basic version will be enough for 90% of the intended WiFi uses. Should we get some better BT, it can basically do almost everything that WiFi can do and more. (Beside being WiFi compatible *g*) Need to set up a server though, it won't just access my Linksys Box :( Yeah, it's not WiFi. OTOH, at home that's not much an issue (USB Bluetooth doongles are cheap), and on the road you won't be using much WiFi hotspots (expensive, login page, etc.) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the revolutionary aspect of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely and utterly. To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely. O RLY? Let me quote what you wrote: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi. Reality distortion field in full effect... Sencer P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On 1/18/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 14:01]: Beside the point that an *average* user doesn't see the potential of open source on a mobile - what are your experiances and demands on a smart phone? When you look at the devices that you know or use(d): - What does you miss most? - What does you hate most? - What does you like/used most? well honestly my biggest issue with phones in general is not features but execution. The iPhone is a good example of executing well on features that have been around for years. My one concern with open source is that it is great at delivering features, but historically not great at UI. This is because big open source projects are often done by teams where everyone can do what they want. This tends to mean there is no singular unified design vision. This is fine for features for the most part because we can That's technically speaking an out-of-date vision of opensource develepment. I wouldn't consider KDE inconsistent. actually, one might argue that KDE does better then Windows based environments on this score. uh... sure. I dont want to open a windows vs osx vs linux/kde debate here so i'll leave it at that. all more or less agree on how to implement wifi or an encryption scheme or whatever. Or if we disagree we can implement five different ways as APIs and let the market decide. But good UI doesn't work that way. I guess you haven't used the embedded Linux UIs. They are more consistent then some commercial phones. I dont know what this means. What are you talking about... TiVo? Linux UIs and open source UIs is not the same thing. Lots of people (like TiVo and hundreds of other companies) build proprietary apps/UIs on top of linux. That doesn't make them open source. And even if something is open source, if its not done by an open source committee it will generally be better. So the iPhone has a design czar - jobs - and that means that forward thinking design gets done in a unified way. This issue may not effect nope. You are assuming that it will be executed well. nobody has seen an iphone for long enough to fool around with it. From seeing the details, the iPhone is something that not even my wife will want to have, everything that I've seen till now suggests that it will be a nice (smart)phone, but not necessarily nicer than better existing phones, with an iPod embedded. Well, your mileage may vary, but obviously lots of people, press, analysts, etc think its pretty significant. Perhaps it will just be one of many - only time will tell. But somehow I doubt it. Slashdot has certainly gotten a lot of humorous mileage out of the prediction that the iPod wasn't going anywhere. And it will put the carriers interests in front of the users interests. OpenMoko, at least in the beginning, since a private company is doing the design. But when the design process becomes public, the features and design by committee thing might be an issue. It's the Linux-will-fork story all over. Empirical evidence suggests that your fear won't happen. Nope. I don't have any fears and wasn't talking about forking. I am just saying that often, too many cooks spoil the stew. But the bottom line is that my biggest problem with phones is that they are just not designed well. The pretty much all suck! Well, that's not helpful. Design a better, give hints, improvement ideas. It's hard to give you the perfect phone, because you don't specify what you want. I'm not trying to help. I am not intending to be a phone designer. I was asked a question, and so I am stating my honest opinion about phones. Ideally, what I want is a good UI. This is of course, subjective, and so there is no single answer. I can only say that the current phone marketplace has not focused on UI at all. Motorola's UI is inexcusable. Palm apps look the same as they did in 2000 - and still no multi-tasking. Windows mobile is ugly, and looks like they tried to transplant a desktop into a phone. For me to suggest specific fixes is a little like asking why I dont want to date a pot bellied pig. You know, what if we put a little lipstick on it. wouldnt it be good enough then? Phones need to be re-thought. Perhaps OpenMoko is a solution - haven't seen a demo so I don't know - which is why I asked my initial question. But since no one here other than Sean has seen it, perhaps I wont get anything other than generic linux fan responses. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On Thursday 18 January 2007 12:39, hank williams wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. And this is said as if windows mobile phones like moto q, blackjack and pocket PC phones wont allow this. You are buying freedom, but this comes at a cost: I'm prepared to pay more for a phone that might offer less out of the box, to get freedom. I'm prepared to invest time learning how to improve my phone, purely because I enjoy that. I'm prepared to pay upfront, pay more than the market price, or re-purchase the same (improved) device a year later, to support a company that gives me freedom. I'm prepared not to buy a phone - however good it is - that would make Microsoft any money, because they control our freedom and it is important that manufacturers see they can make money without pre-loading each and every device with monopolistic software that restricts user's freedom. You cannot believe how hard it is to purchase a laptop that doesn't automatically include paying Microsoft or Apple some $50 or so in license fees, even if you'll never use their software. (And many companies are even paying for windows twice, once at purchase time and once with their corporate licensing models) What freedom? Last year my son bought a cheap MP3 player. He was surprised that on a windows computer he could only put songs on it, not get them off again. Why? Microsoft wants to give the impression this will prevent people copying songs, so their partner's in the music business are happy. At the same time the memory-stick people are happy, as MS protect their market too. The only person who gets screwed-over is the customer. Plug the same MP3 player into a Linux PC, and you can do what you want with it, even use it as a memory stick for file-transfer. Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. Is this just a geek issue? I think the free and open movement is based around people who are prepared to make sacrifices to uphold their convictions, and they will often be referred to as geeks. It is starting to creep into the mainstream though, with more and more people realizing that the restrictions they thought were inherent to a device or technology were actually artificially put in place to restrict them, and to get them to keep paying for upgrades and extra options when this is not really necessary. It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. Most could, but not always executed in your best interest but often in the interest of the service providers and the manufacturers, often buggy and shoddy (ref lots of Nokia apps), and often not free or opensource. Now if I wanted to load 4 SIM cards into memory, and switch between them when making outgoing calls to avoid roaming charges, which platform would have any chance of allowing this to work? Or if I wanted to backup all my phone's settings and then clone them onto a new phone... ideal for distributing phones within a company. Or if I want to have a command-line operated phone... usersms -ufred 'How are you?' Or if the phone does not support a bluetooth keyboard? Research it and build the driver/profile yourself, or float the idea and wait for someone else to do it, or search the net and find out someone already has. You basically asked what is better, Windows or Linux, and the above is my take on that. Cheers, Richard. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
Thanks. Great, very helpful answer! Hank On 1/18/07, Sencer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. Actually I think most people are saying, that you have full access to a) the hardware and b) to the sources of all applications that run on it. And not only do you have access to the source, but the freedom to change and redistribute the changed application. That's the deciding factor. 3rd party apps in general have been a distinct feature of every smartphone so far, the only reason it's being discussed today at all, is because Apple is disallowing it. Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. By average user, I assume you mean those people that do not program or administer complex software. Well, let me try it with an analogy: What benefit does somebody have from freedom, when he is not interested in making use of it (i.e. working the same job all his life, voting the same party no matter what, etc.) because his main objectives - feeding his family, doing X or doing Y - are equally possible under a repressive regime and in a free country? It's simple, you'll likely still be better of in the free country, because the freedom enables improvements that you will eventually benefit from, even if you never specifically worked (in a hands-on way) towards those specific interests. Now that doesn't mean that as soon as there is freedom, you automatically and directly are better of if you don't make use of it; it's merely the beginning of a process. So today, and for the 1st generation devices that run openmoko, you may (as an average user) not reap immediate benefits, but you will help enable a success through freedom, in that the other people that do have the interest and/or skill necessary to turn that freedom into a benefit for everybody. Is this just a geek issue? It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. For example the PIM/Messaging applications (which areguably are the core of a smaratphone) are not limited by what the device-makers are able and willing to develop. You could add sending SMS over HTTP, sending voice-mails via E-Mail, automatically sending notifications that you are delayed for appointments and for how long (by checking the calendar, the GPS coordinates, and the average speed of your movement). Now the point is not only, that it is possible to write these applications, but that the functionality can be seamlessly integrated into the existing base-applications, and everybody is able to benefit from it. With bluetooth and usb on board, there is a very real possibility of expanding the possibilites in a way that is simply not possible on windows mobile or symbian, because you simply cannot access certain aspects of the phone. As a simple example: Many older wifi-cards that can do WEP but can't do WPA are limited due to software, not hardware reasons. But given that you already paid for them there is no incentive to do that work. Similar with bluetooth functionality, many early phones (looks at nokia) only had a very limited support for certain bluetooth functionality (profiles), and that limitation was due to sotware reasons, not hardware reasons. And interested people that had the time and skill still couldn't do anything about it. People were simply stuck with a castrated phone. [Quoting from a later mail:] This is because big open source projects are often done by teams where everyone can do what they want. This tends to mean there is no singular unified design vision. That's not necessarily the case. In fact I know plenty of counter examples. Open source does not dictate _how_ the software is to be developed or designed. So when you say: But good UI doesn't work that way. that is correct, but it's not necessarily a statement about open source in general. But the bottom line is that my biggest problem with phones is that they are just not designed well. The pretty much all suck! Well, I do not think that open source is a huge enabled in that respect either. So while it doesn't necessarily have to be better or worse than closed source, the code-licence simply isn't a good indicator to judge the likely quality of the UI. Regards Sencer ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
* Marnix Klooster [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 13:33]: On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I mean by this is that it seems everyone is saying that the big difference is that you can get 3rd party *real apps* on the phone. And this is said as if windows mobile phones like moto q, blackjack and pocket PC phones wont allow this. In my mind, it's not just the *additional* applications. It's the kernel and all low-level stuff that you (or others for you) can hack and replace. The dialer application and the bluetooth driver that comes with it, and any other software, can be adapted and/or replaced. And it can be done legally, with all the hardware specs available (excepting of the GPS part perhaps). I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that that would be more difficult or impossible on a Windows mobile phone. See the Linux on HTC smartphones projects. Painful is the word. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
* hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 14:44]: I dont know what this means. What are you talking about... TiVo? Linux Nope, I had once an Ipaq with GPE, and it's UI was quite ok. The Qtopia thing is also quite fine. And I had phones that had obvious bugs in it. (Don't remember which phone it was, but I had once a phone where one could enter a time of day where the phone should power off. Well, but it seems the developers forgot an option to delete the poweroff time.) UIs and open source UIs is not the same thing. Lots of people (like TiVo and hundreds of other companies) build proprietary apps/UIs on top of linux. That doesn't make them open source. And even if something is open source, if its not done by an open source committee it will generally be better. How do you arrive at this assertion? UI design is something that can be done well by committee and done badly by committee. Well, your mileage may vary, but obviously lots of people, press, analysts, etc think its pretty significant. Perhaps it will just be one of The press and analysts have not seen much yet of the phone. They have basically been given a presentation, given press release that Apple (a company known for lifestyle products) claims to have revolutized the phone market. And they (perhaps, not all of them), were allowed to play around with a prototype. Some error clear here? How can have Apple done something in the past tense, with something that is not yet and will not be available till Summer? You know, they even found many journalists and analyst that did believe SCO's claims about Linux IBM. Basically, many analysts and journalists today tend to copy paste press releases. It's clearly not a black white thing, because there are journalists and analysts knowing about stuff they write about. And the copy paste is sometimes verbatim, more often it's a rewording of the stuff they get supplied. So sorry, what I've read and seen, the iPhone is completly underwhelming. Time will show if users will pay a premium because it's an Apple product. (Because there have been a number of premium design phones, sometimes with better technology than the iPhone, that have made no impression on the market.) many - only time will tell. But somehow I doubt it. Slashdot has certainly gotten a lot of humorous mileage out of the prediction that the iPod wasn't going anywhere. It has a huge benefit for iPod users = they can have a phone and an iPod in one piece. OTOH, there are people that don't buy an iPod because it's so closed already. ;) And because of it's closed nature, the phone powerusers will be better off with a WinMobile. (If not the Neo.) It's the Linux-will-fork story all over. Empirical evidence suggests that your fear won't happen. Nope. I don't have any fears and wasn't talking about forking. I am just saying that often, too many cooks spoil the stew. Not really. What you are refering to is that not all software is UI-wise enduser ready. Yeah, these packages will be on the Neo too. But OTOH, I've seen many enduser friendly packages happening in the Linux space, so only time will show. I'm not trying to help. I am not intending to be a phone designer. I was asked a question, and so I am stating my honest opinion about phones. Ideally, what I want is a good UI. This is of course, subjective, and so there is no single answer. I can only say that the current phone marketplace has not focused on UI at all. Motorola's UI is inexcusable. Motorola is bad. SonyEriccson is a little bit better, Nokia is workable. Palm apps look the same as they did in 2000 - and still no multi-tasking. Guess what, they did look the same even earlier :) Windows mobile is ugly, and looks like they tried to transplant a desktop into a phone. For me to suggest specific fixes is a little like asking why I dont want to date a pot bellied pig. You know, what if we put a little I think the Neo will surprise you positivly. lipstick on it. wouldnt it be good enough then? Phones need to be re-thought. Perhaps OpenMoko is a solution - haven't seen a demo so I don't know - which is why I asked my initial question. But since no one here other than Sean has seen it, perhaps I wont get anything other than generic linux fan responses. It's not that I'm a fan ;) It usually sucks less on average than most alternatives. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
It's the Linux-will-fork story all over. Empirical evidence suggests that your fear won't happen. Nope. I don't have any fears and wasn't talking about forking. I am just saying that often, too many cooks spoil the stew. Not really. What you are refering to is that not all software is UI-wise enduser ready. Yeah, these packages will be on the Neo too. But OTOH, I've seen many enduser friendly packages happening in the Linux space, so only time will show. You are entitled to your opinion but not mine. Please don't tell me what I was saying or should be saying. I was not referring to anything other than what I said. I believe too many cooks spoil the stew, which is often a problem in open source, in my opinion. Its also often also a problem inside corporate development efforts. When there is no clear and absolute leadership, product design suffers. This is of course my opinion, based on my 30 years of software development. It is, nevertheless an opinion. Your mileage may vary. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re:Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Sven Neuhaus writes: Since everyone is drooling about the next iteration of the Neo which is exptected to include WiFi, I figured I'd add a request for USB 2.0. This I think expected is putting it too strongly. I haven't seen anything from FIC about a second generation at all yet; let's say we're hoping it does wifi. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now I am not saying open source isnt great. But from your *average* users perspective I would love to hear the advantages of the open source for these devices. Is this just a geek issue? It seems like most of the apps described on this list could be done with any of the windows mobile phones. I'd just love, for my own edification, to hear why this is wrong. I don't think it's simple enough to categorise neatly right now.. but think of it in terms of computer evolution - warehouse sized computers, mainframes, desktop, laptop.. the next stage of that evolution is a computer you can carry around in your pocket that does everything you want/need it to. Mobile phones have flirted with that category for a while now, but their closed nature - artificial limits placed upon development and software functionality - seriously impede their potential. So what I'm banking upon is that mysterious future potential that comes from fully realising the next stage of computer evolution, and being a small part of that coming revolution. You are right in that technically a windows mobile phone could run the same applications - the source will be open, after all... but that is then a game of catch-up and if some of the wacky ideas we've collected so far turns out to be extremely useful and more difficult for large companies to negotiate, administer and incorporate into their business models.. then Open platforms will gain market lead purely due to their agility. So right now it is a geek issue, which in my opinion will become a user issue when we start seeing the next generation of mobile applications. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 11:26]: On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote: Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number. Just out of curiosity, did you actually try this ? I would be very curious to find out how do they accomplish this from a technical standpoint. A sort of auto-redial via GSM I can understand, but _seamless_ switching without carrier assist (not to mention the delays of connection establishing) is quite a feat if they can do it. It's basically trivial. You get one number, that rings on different numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part. If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip. The actual implementation can be tricky, but this kind of things are already being done. Especially, the question is who is paying for the GSM termination fees. (It might mean that you basically switch back to a mobile-user-pays-for-receiving-calls model) E.g. C't two years ago or so explained a setup where with certain german networks one could achieve a landline number that forwards to a mobile without the expensive mobile termination costs. (the termination fees are what makes calling mobiles expensive, at least in Europe, and calling landlines basically near free, whereever) What is cool about SIP based VoIP phones is the level of experimentation and control that they allow, while at the same time being non-geek compatible. The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi easy. Why should they risk ? They are selling millions of handsets through carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts. Take the iPhone, and let's see what would have happened if they 'got it'. Add some $ to counter the costs of wifi (not just the HW itself, but for the whole feature), discard the carrier subsidy and now you have a carrier free funky wifi don't leave the country phone that has to be recharged daily and costs 800-1000$. Doesn't impress me all that much. Well, it would be a really nice option, BUT that's the crux of this. It strictly depends upon local conditions. If you can get city-wide WiFi for GBP10, that's nice and be acceptable. OTOH, I can get landline calls for 0-1 cent in Austria, even with relative cheap calling plans. So any solution that centers around converting this call to landline functionality to be able call other destinations or accept calls is cool. Calling plans in Germany works a little bit different, but are comparable to the Austrian situation. OTOH, there is no Wifi outside home for reasonable fees. Actually, having seen a number of customers offices I wouldn't expect many companies in Germany to use WiFi. And most corporate networks would be not sip-compatible anyway, because they have only http-proxy level access to the net. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
el jefe delito writes: and make sure the port is a powered one this time round ;) and a standard master-device USB-A port at that http://www.heinex.dk/kabler/usb-a.jpg so that I can plug in my favorite USB items http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/8c58/ No seriously, USB-A would make so much more sense now that these things are becoming capable of computer-type work. Maybe a seperate 9V battery compartment for powering the USB hub, keeping it separate from the phone's battery? As I understand it, it has USB on-the-go which requires a Mini-AB socket. So you can plug a Mini-A cable into it, and it will behave like a master. Or is the issue powered vs. unpowered? It would be nice to be able to plug a stnadard USB flash stick directly into the phone and use it... you know, given the power requirements of a flash stick, it ought to be possible to have a (noncompliant, I know) device with an A socket on one side, a mini-A plug on the other, and a battery capable of powering a USB stick in the middle. Something like that could probably be the size of the molded strain relief on the socket end of a USB extension cord (also non-compliant, I know, but terribly useful). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
On 1/18/07, Sven Neuhaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While you're at it, please include some kind of hardware graphics acceleration to speed up video playback and maybe allow cooler games... I quite like the idea of the display being in system memory for games - quick pixel read times allow for cpu cycles and memory to be spent on more 'fun' endeavours. For certain types of game you waste more time trying to approach the read-speed of system-memory graphics. That said, if we're talking V2, upgraded memory/CPU+hardware graphics acceleration would please everyone! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
I should clarify and say the issue that I am refering to specifically relates to UI/design. There are very few people that are good at it, so when those good people are not in absolute control and overly influnenced by committees, the design suffers. The good news about most open source products that have been successful is that they are more often API driven. Linux, the apache stuff, languages, etc, etc. Honestly, I havent yet seen an open source product whose UI I really like except firefox which is darned near commercial in the way that it is run. Graphics programs, Interface shells, video programs... I am not going to name names because then someone will either get upset or start misinterpreting. But I have yet to see something that I thought lived up to the best proprietary interface/UI designs. I cant say I have seen everything, but I have seen a lot. I think Open Source kills when it comes to creating high quality maintainable code. But I personally dont think the community process works as well for design and UI. I know people will disagree, and I really dont want to get into a back and forth with people getting upset and trying to prove me wrong. Its just my opinion. And of course there are always exceptions. Oh and by the way, I am not saying OpenMoko will have this problem. It specifically relates to the community process of development. But satisfying everyone's requests/demands in a UI is a sure sign of trouble and is much more prevalent in a more democratic process. Depending on how they manage the process and the form of the leadership it may not be an issue at all. They just have to be good designers themselves, and be willing to say no when warranted. Regards, Hank p.s. These are just my opinions. I have said it before, but many people have different perspectives on what it takes to make great products. I am not sure why anyone would care about my views on this subject. On 1/18/07, Richard Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/18/07, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe too many cooks spoil the stew, which is often a problem in open source, in my opinion. Its also often also a problem inside corporate development efforts. When there is no clear and absolute leadership, product design suffers. This is of course my opinion, based on my 30 years of software development. It is, nevertheless an opinion. Your mileage may vary. I see this being true for monolithic projects such as a kernel, or an office productivity suite.. I would say that it's debatable whether the same holds true for the types of micro-application which are going to be created using the OpenMoko API (which as a foundation does appear to have clear leadership). Monolithic product design I believe arose from distribution and OS layer limitations - when you simply couldn't download weekly updates or patches, the product had to get it right the first time. It didn't always happen that way of course, but there was no real alternative as the network infrastructure hadn't been built up yet. Communication accelerates standardisation, and standardisation paves the way for smaller tighter applications. Given the diversity of interests shown on this list, I don't think we'll run into the too-many-cooks issue any time soon. Out of interest, which Open Source projects have fallen victim to the too-many-cooks problem? Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
First. The lack of WiFi will _not_ prevent me from buying the first gen openmoko phone. Second. I have WiFi on my HTC Wizard (Cingular 8125) and almost never use it. Third. VOIP is cool and all, but I don't understand how a Mobile carrier can make $$$ from it. Forth. Sorry for contributing to a silly thread... Mark On 1/17/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi. Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device. Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the killer app. Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too: truphone.com Please include WiFi! Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Doug Shawhan schreef: Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice app Or, even better, a mesh voip solution. I was working at a festival last year (50k visitors, 2k staff) and phone service was down (surprise!) for all but one network. With mesh networking you could make calls within the mesh easily, and with enough endpoints, outside the mesh as well. AFAIK you can do mesh-like networks with BT as well (bridget piconets), but I think you'll get hit with the limited range. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr79CMkyGM64RGpERAp6eAJ9vqn09Gqz6hVdHK2MO30RklT+sTQCgufte wjSpljJw7rDCqFXy56ujqlE= =aPLY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Yes, Bluetooth's PAN profile is intended to enable pico/mesh networking... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Koen Kooi Sent: Thu 1/18/2007 10:41 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Doug Shawhan schreef: Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice app Or, even better, a mesh voip solution. I was working at a festival last year (50k visitors, 2k staff) and phone service was down (surprise!) for all but one network. With mesh networking you could make calls within the mesh easily, and with enough endpoints, outside the mesh as well. AFAIK you can do mesh-like networks with BT as well (bridget piconets), but I think you'll get hit with the limited range. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr79CMkyGM64RGpERAp6eAJ9vqn09Gqz6hVdHK2MO30RklT+sTQCgufte wjSpljJw7rDCqFXy56ujqlE= =aPLY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Ye ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Built in PIM app source?
Will the 'included by default' PIM apps. calendar, address book and task lists be open sourced? If so I'd like to get a look at them. I have some specific ideas for improvement that I was about to try out using opie for use on my zaurus. But i'd like to take a shot at an openmoko app first if possible. Mark ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 1:30 pm, Sencer wrote: Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the revolutionary aspect of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely and utterly. To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely. O RLY? Let me quote what you wrote: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi. Reality distortion field in full effect... You still don't get it. The revolutionary aspect of such a device would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary part of the package for achieving that. P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product. Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
Salve Rok! On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Rok Ruzic wrote: Non-Networkprovider dominated, user-orientated design: - white/black list for incomming calls/sms - answering machine on your phone - voice menues for anknown or anonymous caller Robert, you are mentioning black/white listing. Do you know for fact, that somebody is already working on it? No, but I'm shure that asterisk will run on the Neo1973 and this will give all asterisk users the power to play with dial plans (extentions.conf and more) on the mobile. Even when asterisk will not be the smart (embedded) phone solution for the mass market - it is a great tool to develop stategies how to answer or non-answer a call. For everybody who like to create new ways of dail plans (time/location/mood/... dependent dail plans), black/white listing will be my advice to play with asterisk before the Neo1973 is out. Parallel to answer you I'm just started [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/rob# apt-get install upslug2 :) this NSLU2 box is new - I desided to buy a NSLU2 because it is also ARM powered like the Neo1973 :) and it is supported by the Debian installer. BTW I found a souce for a Linux compatible USB2 10/100Mbit/s adapter with the Realtek RTL8150L chip for 8,49 Euro plus shipping: tinxi.com And of course I will run asterisk there as well :) I'm convinced that the Debian-NSLU2 is a very good partner for the NEO1973 :))) So back to your question - I'm sorry that I do not know for fact that somebody is already working in detail, but I'm shure that people are starting to think what freedom for handling calls they will get with an open phone. Think about the power to hide call back or call through funktions, maybe GPRS powered, with a good integration on your mobile Asterisk is inspiring what all new sloutions will become possible with OpenMoko/Neo1973 and OpenMoko/Neo1973 together with an asterisk server - maybe on a NSLU2 Have you additional ideas about core phone funtions to those we posted on this list? Happy hacking rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 12:23, Renaissance Man wrote: You still don't get it. The revolutionary aspect of such a device would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary part of the package for achieving that. What's the revolutionary aspect of flogging a dead-horse? Fact: the first version of Fic1973 isn't going to ship with WiFi Fact: that's a bummer Clue: deal with it, wait for the next version, and/or find some other device on the market that suits your requirements Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with. Apparently you've just described an issue you yourself have, seeing the amount of effort and time you've placed into arguing/debating your own perspective of the matter. You appear to have a difficult time accepting that others don't necessarily think the same way as you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: is google.com down?
Your e-mail isn't well-formed . . . you're missing an open rant tag. p. On 1/18/07, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, It seems google.com is down, since a a great deal of topics posted to the list can be answered by spending 2 minutes google-ing. Please, do some research before wasting our time. /rant -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr820MkyGM64RGpERAl9EAJ9ndL3BtaAHIAAoQYD/rcieoQONggCfYHok TyptPa49yiReTkvNcTEBDmI= =ZsFT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sync from Kalendar/Address to KDEPIM
Dnia czwartek, 18 stycznia 2007 20:28, Eildert Groeneveld napisał: When it comes to uses of a samrt phone, the thing that I really consider important is to use Kalendar, addresses and mailing on either my (Linux) laptop or the smartphone. Here, the Treo/Palm has proven useful, but synchronization was never really robust. The prospect to run the same SW also on the Neo (not treo) I find very appealing. I wonder if there is someone around who would know how to do sync for Neo-KDEPIM and who has done something similar. KDEPIM 3.x is not ready for syncing. I hope that in kde4 they will finally create something which will really be able to sync. It is annoying to remove 200 *EMPTY* contacts from phone after sync.. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant We were talking about everything. It's called friendship. It's like therapy for poor people [WaT 2x18] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07 11:23 AM, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You still don't get it. Y' know, you're right. I don't. I clearly am not intelligent enough to appreciate the worldview-shaking impact of saving a few bucks on my cell phone bill. I don't suppose further repetitions of this revelation are likely to change that, either. I think you're wasting your time here trying to convince me, honestly. Sorry For The Inconvenience. Now I can go to the movies. By _myself_.--Avon Long as Ezra in _Trading Places_ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product. Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with. You've won my vote for troll, too. On the upside though, I'm definitely interested in the possibilities of using VoIP with bluetooth for home/office, which I wasn't before this thread started - handy? Yes. Cost-effective? Yes. Revolutionary? Debatable, but let's not -- I'm upset that the Neo won't come with a bunch of magical time pixies who transmogrifiy new paradigms into productivity quanta.. but since I'll have to wait until v2.0 at least for that, there's no point complaining endlessly about the magical pixie-less v1.0! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
Dnia czwartek, 18 stycznia 2007 20:23, Robert Michel napisał: this NSLU2 box is new - I desided to buy a NSLU2 because it is also ARM powered like the Neo1973 :) Your NSLU2 is/will be also powered by distro built with usage of the same buildsystem as Neo1973 - OpenEmbedded. and it is supported by the Debian installer. Because NSLU2 hackers create own project, then joined OE to improve it (OE and nslu2-linux project) and finally they helped Debian. Due to their work ARM is not 3rd architecture in Debian and NSLU2 is iirc most popular ARM machine in Debian. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant No processes were killed during production of this e-mail ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 12:33, Renaissance Man wrote: All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as You got me all wrong. I'm not against WiFi anywhere, I just don't think VoIP over Wifi in phones is 'the revolution'. It is good way to share data and an awkward way to circumvent carrier monopolies with an inferior technology for that specific application, that's all there is to it. If one day it'll be on the Neo, cool, I'll take it for the data applications, you can use it for VoIP, everybody happy. Until then, BT will do just fine. Don't mix means and goal. VoIP+Wifi became your goal instead of being the means :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:59, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: It's basically trivial. You get one number, that rings on different numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part. If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip. Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Built in PIM app source?
I know that I will run GPE PIM apps on mine, but that is just because I helped write them ;) Joe PS. I hope whoever has/gets the answer to the stock PIM apps will post to the list since I would be interested in knowing if they plan on starting from scratch or contributing to/adapting an existing set (like GPE stuff). On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 13:36 -0600, el jefe delito wrote: Open source, yes. What they are, or where, I have no idea. Try asking in the freenode.net/#openmoko IRC room if no one else has info to give you. On 1/18/07, Mark McClellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will the 'included by default' PIM apps. calendar, address book and task lists be open sourced? If so I'd like to get a look at them. I have some specific ideas for improvement that I was about to try out using opie for use on my zaurus. But i'd like to take a shot at an openmoko app first if possible. Mark ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- be seeing you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Built in PIM app source?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joseph J. McCarthy schreef: I know that I will run GPE PIM apps on mine, but that is just because I helped write them ;) Joe PS. I hope whoever has/gets the answer to the stock PIM apps will post to the list since I would be interested in knowing if they plan on starting from scratch or contributing to/adapting an existing set (like GPE stuff). Semi from scratch, they will use EDS-dbus as a backend, at least for the 'contacts/dialer' application. regards, Koen PS: the opensourcing date will probably announced with the announcement on 'friday' -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr9XiMkyGM64RGpERAlM2AJ9ermHrUAHADblZn9e3yXliDN9W+wCffrRt sYbQKzNtqiRuKUXABZQNDNo= =1eJA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Built in PIM app source?
Thanks Koen, I'll start looking at the backend. Of course my next question will be, how do I setup a dev environmnet for openmoko? But i'll wait on that one since it's been asked 100 times so far on the list :) I'll delay my other 'feature list/roadmap' type questions until I have a handle on the backend. Mark On 1/18/07, Koen Kooi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joseph J. McCarthy schreef: I know that I will run GPE PIM apps on mine, but that is just because I helped write them ;) Joe PS. I hope whoever has/gets the answer to the stock PIM apps will post to the list since I would be interested in knowing if they plan on starting from scratch or contributing to/adapting an existing set (like GPE stuff). Semi from scratch, they will use EDS-dbus as a backend, at least for the 'contacts/dialer' application. regards, Koen PS: the opensourcing date will probably announced with the announcement on 'friday' -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr9XiMkyGM64RGpERAlM2AJ9ermHrUAHADblZn9e3yXliDN9W+wCffrRt sYbQKzNtqiRuKUXABZQNDNo= =1eJA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Mark McClellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 19:32]: First. The lack of WiFi will _not_ prevent me from buying the first gen openmoko phone. me too. Second. I have WiFi on my HTC Wizard (Cingular 8125) and almost never use it. me too (in my case it's a Nokia9500). Third. VOIP is cool and all, but I don't understand how a Mobile carrier can make $$$ from it. That's the idea that our friend from London want's to achieve, no money to the carrier ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Built in PIM app source?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark McClellan schreef: Thanks Koen, I'll start looking at the backend. Of course my next question will be, how do I setup a dev environmnet for openmoko? But i'll wait on that one since it's been asked 100 times so far on the list :) Follow the instructions on http://openembedded.org, MACHINE=ep93xx, DISTRO=generic should build compatible binaries. Developers: you have the chance get used to the build system *right now*, so use it. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFr9xEMkyGM64RGpERAj7bAJ9B95/ou3IOHd2luNdxTa7rfZb9JQCgtNVF vvVqRRDcR5rjqoN7AIeudNc= =M/uR -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 20:27]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 1:30 pm, Sencer wrote: You still don't get it. The revolutionary aspect of such a device would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary part of the package for achieving that. It would be even more revolutionary if you could make it work ;) Please note that VoIP really puts some pressure for upload bandwidth, which some public hotspots might not be able to fulfill. Plus, VoIP has a tendency to break badly when the bandwidth gets overextended. And because of TCP/IPs lack of QoS, you need to budget way more bandwidth for the call to have reserves. (Even then it can break.) Basically, you are telling me that one specific way to avoid paying for phoning is revolutionary. As I've mentioned it already, that might be so for you, but in many places WiFi coverage is sparse and/or expensive. P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product. Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with. Nope, you are telling us, that the Neo should have an UK/London edition with WiFi added, and you personally would consider that a killer app. Basically there are many potentially useful additions to the Neo (powered USB, USB2, changeable MicroSD slot, EDGE, UMTS, keyboard, WiFi, and so on). Bad as it sounds, FIC had to choose a set of features that they can and will implement. Bad for you, your pet feature WiFi is not included in the first revision of the phone. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia czwartek, 18 stycznia 2007 20:23, Robert Michel napisał: this NSLU2 box is new - I desided to buy a NSLU2 because it is also ARM powered like the Neo1973 :) Your NSLU2 is/will be also powered by distro built with usage of the same buildsystem as Neo1973 - OpenEmbedded. and it is supported by the Debian installer. Because NSLU2 hackers create own project, then joined OE to improve it (OE and nslu2-linux project) and finally they helped Debian. and OpenWRT, and Gentoo, ... nslu2-linux is distribution agnostic :-) Due to their work ARM is not 3rd architecture in Debian and NSLU2 is iirc most popular ^^^ now ARM machine in Debian. Indeed. See http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3535328630.html Perhaps we can do the same for the Neo, and make it the third most popular mobile phone ... ;-) I am expecting to get a developer device so I can ensure that the NSLU2 SlugOS distribution (which is built using OpenEmbedded, and shares lots of basic infrastructure applications with OpenMoko) has all the capabilities to fully network/sync/etc with the Neo via bluetooth and USB. All you will need is a USD$80 NSLU2 and a USD$20 USB bluetooth dongle (although I recommend the Linksys USBBT100 which will set you back USD$40) for your home server. You can even add a USB disk drive and do lots of other stuff too. [Yes, this *is* a blatant attempt to make sure that I am on the developer device early-access list :-)] -- Rod Whitby -- NSLU2-Linux Project Lead ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
You still don't get it. The revolutionary aspect of such a device would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary part of the package for achieving that. Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not understand that it is largely irrelevant, because everybody already is in favour of having wifi at some point. The question is not about the plus side of having wifi, but the question is with dealing with the costs of adding wifi to 1st generation device, which completely flies past you. Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view to start with. What different view? As I said everybody is in favour of having wifi, that's not the debate. The debate should be about weighing the cost and benefit of having wifi in the 1st gen. device. But all you do is keep on talking about how great an enabler wifi would be, and then go off on tangents about VOIP over WiFI -. great feature or greatest feature?... any you never even responded to any of the many points made that explain why getting wifi later is a better of course of action for the overall project (the software platform, remember?). I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with. +1 irony The only issue I have is with your utterly pointless and unproductive whining that is clogging the list. Sencer ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. Sorry for riling a few people (happens when you challenge people's preconceptions). Look forward with eager anticipation to the Neo v2. Hopefully I wouldn't have been sucked into the iPhone ecosystem before then. And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving millions on our phone bills. :) Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 9:42 pm, Sencer wrote: Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not understand that it is largely irrelevant, because everybody already is in favour of having wifi at some point. The question is not about the plus side of having wifi, but the question is with dealing with the costs of adding wifi to 1st generation device, which completely flies past you. No, that was just the argument some were projecting onto me; my argument isn't that you must include wifi in the Neo v1 no matter what the cost. My argument is that the GSM+WiFi/VoIP combination is a revolution waiting to happen and that OpenMoko clearly won't be player in this until it gets WiFi. By the time it does get WiFi, however, the revolution may already have happened, and OpenMoko will simply be joining the bandwagon, which is a shame because of the potential mindshare in being a pioneer of such a device. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Hi renaissance man On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. Sorry for riling a few people (happens when you challenge people's preconceptions). Look forward with eager anticipation to the Neo v2. Hopefully I wouldn't have been sucked into the iPhone ecosystem before then. And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving millions on our phone bills. :) Renaissance Man Gloat all you want, but I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills? (take a guess... Yes, that's right... the user of the network, ie YOU) Sure you might save millions on phone bills, but you spend almost as much money on bandwidth bills (do you really think that municipal WiFi also means free VOIP? There is no such thing as a free lunch. Everything comes at a cost) I don't think that 'saving some money on phone bills' is a killer app. Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone). Second thing. For a revolution you need people who stand behind that revolution. If Neo rev.1 would come out with Wifi, but has no or a small audience, I'd hardly call that a revolution. Let's first be sure that this isn't vaporware, get people developing for the platform, creating real killer apps, and then look into this wifi-thing. Get more users attracted to the phone, because it has this awesome program that everyone really needs, and oh yeah, it also has VOIP possibilities because of the built-in wifi... then you can claim 'revolution', but not solely on the Wifi. Currently there already are wifi enabled phones. For instance Skype phones etc. And those aren't really selling like hotcakes. Okay, indeed most aren't GSM phones, but still they have Wifi, they will also save you phone bills... Those are just my two cents, Marcel ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070118 23:06]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 9:42 pm, Sencer wrote: Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not understand that it is largely irrelevant, because everybody already is in favour of having wifi at some point. The question is not about the plus side of having wifi, but the question is with dealing with the costs of adding wifi to 1st generation device, which completely flies past you. No, that was just the argument some were projecting onto me; my argument isn't that you must include wifi in the Neo v1 no matter what the cost. My argument is that the GSM+WiFi/VoIP combination is a revolution waiting to happen and that OpenMoko clearly won't be player in this until it gets WiFi. The point is, it's not a revolution. It might be a local revolution, but e.g. in Germany/Austria there is NO flatfee WiFi provider. So the local chapters of the revolution died, because all members went broke on WiFi hotspot access charges *g* By the time it does get WiFi, however, the revolution may already have happened, and OpenMoko will simply be joining the bandwagon, which is a shame because of the potential mindshare in being a pioneer of such a device. Technically speaking, the WiFi/VoIP has already happened in the Nokia E/N series. Just that nobody really cares ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Renaissance Man writes: And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving millions on our phone bills. :) I don't think anybody thinks you're wrong about it happening, and happening soon. Just about the relative importance of that feature vs. open development in a device to be released within the next two months (not years). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why do I want WiFi?
You might like to read the FAQ Gabriel: http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.tru On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:25 pm, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: Doesn't really say how it works. An all SIP solution doesnt really sound like it could ever be seamless with GSM. I'd really like to know just how this supposed to work, because if they pulled this off, it would be really huge. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
realtime call switching
http://www.grandcentral.com/ grand central claims to be able to do this, switch calls from mobile to home or office, mid-call tho' it's only available in the us cheers daly -- Forwarded message -- From: Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:08:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:59, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: It's basically trivial. You get one number, that rings on different numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part. If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip. Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc). -- Forwarded message -- From: David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:09:08 -0800 Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary On 1/18/07 12:08 PM, Attila Csipa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:59, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: It's basically trivial. You get one number, that rings on different numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part. If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip. Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc). No, that's more challenging. The BTFusion stuff mentioned earlier is an effort in that direction. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:24 pm, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: Not realistic, because the iPhone won't be available this year in Europe ;) Not according to Apple. End of 2007 is their intended release date. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote: I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills? The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes like The Cloud in Europe. Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone). No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours. You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ How is the battery life affected when using Truphone? from this page (pasted below): http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life affected when using Truphone? Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than on GSM. Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength: - Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G connections. - Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases its transmission power). - Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use more battery than a stable connection. and so on... Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength. You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls! We will publish a survey of battery life in various situations shortly. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On Thursday 18 January 2007 21:08, Attila Csipa wrote: Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc). Isn't UMA supposed to be able to handle that? pgpPL5fE9cK5o.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070119 00:00]: On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote: I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills? The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes like The Cloud in Europe. Well, TheCloud is mainly a UK provider. Definitly not an European one. And they don't even tell what it costs on their German homepage. OTOH they do have about 800 hotspots in Germany, mostly in Hotels. Free hotspots aren't here that popular. Haven't seen or used one ever. And for many people using their phone on the work network is a good reason to get fired, if it works at all (because enterprise networks often have only strictly limited access to the Internet). Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone). No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours. The problem is, that the only acceptable components for the OpenMoko platforms are opensource compatible devices. Opensource friendly + power efficient doesn't exist at the moment. (btw, I don't know the motivation for the AGPS part, OTOH, it's only an userspace daemon that is closed-source.) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote: I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills? The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes like The Cloud in Europe. Only in limited spaces, hardly a blanket over a whole country. In NL it's only at certain hotspots, and even then it's very limited bandwidth. (and expensive) Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone). No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours. I don't want to play music on my phone. I just want to make calls... so for me that's about 5 or 6 hours of calling time. (sidenote: standby time is also drastically cut when you have your wifi turned on, those things can be real power consumers, my Nintendo DS can normally play for about 16 hours non-stop, when I turn on the wifi, suddenly I can only play about 8 hours non-stop, not that I do that very much) You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ How is the battery life affected when using Truphone? from this page (pasted below): http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life affected when using Truphone? Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than on GSM. Half of 5 hours is how much? (to go on with the iphone example) Right... 2.5 hours of talking time. And that's for the service of truphone alone... that's not including the draining that's done by the wifi-chip. BTW, do you own stock of Truphone? Or are you in any other way affiliated with that product? Just curious. Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength: - Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G connections. - Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases its transmission power). - Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use more battery than a stable connection. and so on... Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength. You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls! So they admit that there is a drop in battery life when using the product. Because, to preserve battery-life you have to turn WLAN off. Also it may be so that Truphone doesn't really affect standby time, but Truphone is only the product you use. It's not the Wifi chip that's in your phone. And it's that Wifi chip that's causing the drainage, it needs to sync regularly with your wireless router or whatever accesspoint you have. Besides it's a moot point, there is currently *no* open source low-power wifi-chip. And Sean and the rest of the OpenMoko team has indicated that they have no interest in adding a closed-source closed-spec'ed piece of hardware in there almost completely open phone. (What would then be the use of making the rest of it completely open, if they did?) I don't think anybody thinks you're wrong about it happening, and happening soon. I think if you read through you'll find quite a few comments along that line Joe. No, we just think it's improper to demand that the OpenMoko team should go back to the drawing table to add a proprietary wifi chip on the board. Completely destroying months (or perhaps years) work, and demand that they do it in a few months! (you give me the impression that you think it's no big deal to just add a little chip in it, and that they absolutely right now have to do it.) --- Marcel de Jong ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
One more thing.. let's get this perfectly clear. I'm not against Wifi-support in the Neo, some time in the future. I'd love to use it, to communicate with my pc, as a sort of fileserver or something like that. And it would make upgrading the phone a breeze. But it is not a must-have for me. It's a nice-to-have. If my wallet allows it, I will get a rev. 1 of the Neo1971. Because the wifi is not a dealbreaker for me. -- Marcel On 1/19/07, Marcel de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote: I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills? The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes like The Cloud in Europe. Only in limited spaces, hardly a blanket over a whole country. In NL it's only at certain hotspots, and even then it's very limited bandwidth. (and expensive) Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone). No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours. I don't want to play music on my phone. I just want to make calls... so for me that's about 5 or 6 hours of calling time. (sidenote: standby time is also drastically cut when you have your wifi turned on, those things can be real power consumers, my Nintendo DS can normally play for about 16 hours non-stop, when I turn on the wifi, suddenly I can only play about 8 hours non-stop, not that I do that very much) You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ How is the battery life affected when using Truphone? from this page (pasted below): http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life affected when using Truphone? Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than on GSM. Half of 5 hours is how much? (to go on with the iphone example) Right... 2.5 hours of talking time. And that's for the service of truphone alone... that's not including the draining that's done by the wifi-chip. BTW, do you own stock of Truphone? Or are you in any other way affiliated with that product? Just curious. Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength: - Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G connections. - Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases its transmission power). - Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use more battery than a stable connection. and so on... Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength. You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls! So they admit that there is a drop in battery life when using the product. Because, to preserve battery-life you have to turn WLAN off. Also it may be so that Truphone doesn't really affect standby time, but Truphone is only the product you use. It's not the Wifi chip that's in your phone. And it's that Wifi chip that's causing the drainage, it needs to sync regularly with your wireless router or whatever accesspoint you have. Besides it's a moot point, there is currently *no* open source low-power wifi-chip. And Sean and the rest of the OpenMoko team has indicated that they have no interest in adding a closed-source closed-spec'ed piece of hardware in there almost completely open phone. (What would then be the use of making the rest of it completely open, if they did?) I don't think anybody thinks you're wrong about it happening, and happening soon. I think if you read through you'll find quite a few comments along that line Joe. No, we just think it's improper to demand that the OpenMoko team should go back to the drawing table to add a proprietary wifi chip on the board. Completely destroying months (or perhaps years) work, and demand that they do it in a few months! (you give me the impression that you think it's no big deal to just add a little chip in it, and that they absolutely right now have to do it.) --- Marcel de Jong
Re: is google.com down?
On 1/18/07, Bryan Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community archives online are not easily searchable and not the best way to get a definite answer. Gmane to the rescue! http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.openmoko.general Nice! Thanks for the link! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: collaborating on bluetooth audio
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brad Midgley schreef: Koen What's the openmoko developers' take on pulseaudio? I'm looking at how a bluetooth pulse plugin would work out. fwiw, pulse could run as its own service or be embedded in another service. In terms of audiorouting, wouldn't a gstreamer based solution be more flexible? pulse provides some things we can use * allows for dynamically switching between audio adapters that come and go * has some work on low-latency for voice * as a daemon it can provide mixing and bluetooth connection persistence between multiple client shutdown/startup/etc. After reading the LCA slides on pulse-audio it seems to be the best choice for an audiorouting app, BUT ... ... it uses libsamplerate, which is doing heavy floating point math for each needed step, so it isn't usable on regular ARM cpus. If we can avoid samplerate conversion, it should be performing quite well on the intended hardware. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFsBBdMkyGM64RGpERAjzFAJ9UMHY/gQfA54I5NksKfBbpiHSOMQCgqzRH PEvosAsirpxYShcQeuSliJ8= =sNiS -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
Oh great, I get to be silly now too? Okay, tag you're it. I'm sorry but taking offence at being misconstrued is not silly. Renaissance Man On 19 Jan 2007, at 12:31 am, David Schlesinger wrote: Dunno, maybe you have a reading comprehension disability Okay, now it's _you_ that needs to be declared silly. You're just wasting time and electrons now. Please stop. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
System block diagram?
Hi all, I'm sorry if it was already covered on the list. Do we have any diagram of initial hardware architecture? Was there any discussion regarding which baseband application processor(s) we will use? Thanks, Jiyang Kang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
In conclusion, 1. Both iPhone and OpenMoko are revolutionary, and in different ways. 2. Neither is designed to save you money. 3. Seamless VoIP over WiFi on a cellphone is an interesting idea, and could save you money and trouble if you make a lot of long-distance calls and spend a lot of time around open access points. 4. Carriers won't like you saving money, so an open-source phone is your best bet. 5. Neo1973 rev 1 will not have WiFi, but a later revision probably will. 6. You could even write the code yourself. Austin Taylor ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
data (software) modem / lecture in bochum
hi there, in search for a gnu/linux powered device i've found your project and i must say i'm amazed ;) well, i wanted to make a data link via a gsm voice call (see [0]) and develop the needed hard- and software for it. so, my question is: does the platform somehow allow to act as gsm modem even in the middle of a voice call? if not i'd have to write a software-modulation and recognition or adapt from other oss projects. i know, this doesn't further the project itself much, but surely increases the geek-factor of it ;) another question is: does any of the developers or involved people live in germany, close to bochum? if so, i know a couple of geeks and possible future developers for the project -- all it needs is somebody who can hold an interesting talk/lecture about the project at the labor bochum (see [1] and [2] for some projects we've made). greetings soeren 0: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/DataLinkViaGsmVoiceConnection 1: http://www.das-labor.org 2: http://wiki.das-labor.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: what is the difference between openMoko and windows mobile based phones
On Thursday 18 January 2007 21:47, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: OTOH, there are people that don't buy an iPod because it's so closed already. Hmm... some can-opener can be found here there... http://www.rockbox.org (4G 5G, Nano, Mini) http://ipodlinux.sourceforge.net (1-2-3G) My wife is running RockBox on her iPod 5G 30Gb: bought two days ago, was reluctant to connect to both SuSE93 Ubuntu 6.06 so I turned it overnight to RockBox. A breeze, and cheer fun, and customisable, and full of addons, and truly drag'n'drop) Off-topic, I know. Jean-Philippe. -- SuSE93 Linux Kernell 2.6.11.4-21.14 KDE 3.4.0 Kontact 1.1 Kmail 1.8 PHNOM PENH - CAMBODIA pgpfammeZileS.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
