Re: Other Devices
Casey Borders wrote: What would be the feasibility of loading the OpenMoko operating system on to another smart phone, like, say the Nokia n95. Well, one of the reasons for OpenMoko is that it is _very_ hard to bring the Linux operating system to closed hardware, i.e. without vendor support. Before thinking about the upper OpenMoko layers, you would need to port a bootloader and a kernel, which will probably keep you busy for some months. The n95 in particular runs TI OMAP chips and TI has a history of being very tight lipped about their specs, so I'd expect this to be a major hassle. In short, if the hardware is open enough to get Linux running with all peripherals supported, then the upper layers are no problem (except minor touches to accomodate for display resolution, different GSM modem, buttons, LEDs, etc.). -- - Michael Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Other Devices
On Thursday 10 May 2007 09:15:08 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: In short, if the hardware is open enough to get Linux running with all peripherals supported, then the upper layers are no problem (except minor touches to accomodate for display resolution, different GSM modem, buttons, LEDs, etc.). Actually, the GSM part may, or may not, be *that* minor. The FIC device uses a fully self contained radio interface, with it's very own separated CPU, memory, and PCB space. It's a big advantage from the software-interfaceness point of view, but it may not be great for (smallish) hardware design. OTOH, proprietary phones are free to use whatever integrated chipset/software design they are comfortable with, and I believe that in most Nokia phones, it wouldn't be *that* easy to use the GSM radio part with Nokia proprietary firmware, along with another, non Nokia OS. -- Nicolas Bougues ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Other Devices
Nicolas Bougues wrote: On Thursday 10 May 2007 09:15:08 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: In short, if the hardware is open enough to get Linux running with all peripherals supported, then the upper layers are no problem (except minor touches to accomodate for display resolution, different GSM modem, buttons, LEDs, etc.). Actually, the GSM part may, or may not, be *that* minor. The FIC device uses a fully self contained radio interface, with it's very own separated CPU, memory, and PCB space. It's a big advantage from the software-interfaceness point of view, but it may not be great for (smallish) hardware design. OTOH, proprietary phones are free to use whatever integrated chipset/software design they are comfortable with, and I believe that in most Nokia phones, it wouldn't be *that* easy to use the GSM radio part with Nokia proprietary firmware, along with another, non Nokia OS. Correct. I was solely referring to 2-CPU phones using dedicated hardware for BP and AP. Getting OpenMoko to run on a 1-CPU phone is _way_ more involved. -- - Michael Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Battery powered charging/USB hub
Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? Battery-Powered 4-Port USB Hub: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ I suspect above can't be used to charge, only for connecting USB devices to Neo1973. Idea would be device that combined best of 2 above into one device: 1) 2 AA batteries: better volume/energy ratio than AAA and better price/energy ratio too. With enough rechargeable batteries you have almost unlimited runtime. 2) Charge Neo1973. 3) Power for up to 2 or 4 USB gadgets. With this you can use WiFi, get images from about any digital camera and with so me models phone can snap images directly too. Gives access to at least 160 GiB battery powered USB drives too. This makes Neo1 computer that works with many USB gadgets. -- Aloril [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Sorry, accidentally sent this before I had written it: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? Battery-Powered 4-Port USB Hub: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ I suspect above can't be used to charge, only for connecting USB devices to Neo1973. If it can be used to charge, then probably can't act at same time as a hub for Neo1973 at same time (loop). Ideal would be device that combined best of 2 above into one device: 1) 2 AA batteries: better volume/energy ratio than AAA and better price/energy ratio too. With enough rechargeable batteries you have almost unlimited runtime. 2) Charge Neo1973. 3) Power and ports for up to 2 or 4 USB gadgets. With this you can use WiFi, get images from about any digital camera and with some models phone can snap images directly too. Gives access to at least 160 GiB battery powered USB drives too. This makes Neo1973 computer that works with many USB gadgets. 4) As small as possible given above I wonder if it could be made to work as a sleeve? Even then you should be able to use it in tethered mode by adding suitable cable between sleeve-hub and Neo1973. Instead of sleeve it could be different back like described at wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Expansion_Back -- Aloril [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Battery-Powered 4-Port USB Hub: Yes. Has already been discussed; in fact it's quite big and ugly; the dream would be the expansion back idea: some sort of battery-powered usb hub + IO extender http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Expansion_Back http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003271.html Regards Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
On 5/10/07, Aloril [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? No it won't be able to charge the Neo1973, since it doesn't identify itself as a USB2.0 host. Hence, the Neo will only draw 100mA. You need the full 500mA from USB2.0 to charge. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Frank Coenen wrote: On 5/10/07, *Aloril* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? No it won't be able to charge the Neo1973, since it doesn't identify itself as a USB2.0 host. Hence, the Neo will only draw 100mA. You need the full 500mA from USB2.0 to charge. Unless you apply the soon-to-be-created patch that someone (maybe me) will write that draws 500mA anyway, if the host does not talk USB1 to us in 10 seconds. Maybe even with a confirmation dialog box. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Ya know, I *knew* that if I didn't support the statement with URLs that someone would get it all wrong. Not you, Sander, (though receiving four copies of your message was a bit much), but the response from Gabriel kinda pissed in my Wheaties. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp Of course it is, since Sun owns the Copyright, they can distribute non-GPL versions of the code to those who want them (and are willing to pay.) MySQL does this too. OTOH: Sun will ship a pre-integrated, GPL-licensable, Linux- and Java-based operating system software reference design for mobile phones, it announced at its JavaOne conference today in San Francisco. All JavaFX products will be available under the GNU GPL, Sun said. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7539760574.html --- Sun also announced that the company is planning on open sourcing JavaFX Script. We plan to open source all of JavaFX as we work through the program, said Green. The governance, license, and community models will be worked out as the company gets closer to delivering these products. Sun will release the source code of JavaFX Script to let other companies create web authoring tools using it. Sun, too, intends to create scripting tools for content authoring, Green said The alpha code that Sun demonstrated during Tuesday morning's general session is now available at the Project openjfx.org site. Sun will be enhancing and expanding this scripting language and encourages developers to join its community and send in feedback. http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/2007/articles/tuesday_gs.jsp --- And you could have *AT LEAST* quoted the entire paragraph of the press release: http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2007-05/sunflash.20070508.1.xml The first of these, JavaFX Mobile, is a complete mobile phone software system available via OEM license to carriers, content owners and consumer electronics manufacturers. JavaFX leverages the security and ubiquity of the Java platform and will support all content and applications currently available across the billions of Java technology-based devices in the world today. Sun today also previewed JavaFX Script, a new scripting language targeted at creative professionals, which will help to radically simplify the process of creating and distributing interactive content that spans all Java technology enabled platforms, from handsets to set tops, laptops to dashboards (see separate announcement). ***All JavaFX software, like all Java software at Sun, will be available to the free and open source community via the popular GNU General Public License (GPL) license.*** (emphasis mine) Me, I think Java is a four-letter word (and I was @ Sun when it was invented), but I'm *certain* that Sun understands that it has made a commitment to commit all of its software technology to FOSS, and this includes new technologies. Or, you could listen to/watch the webcast where Rich Green is talking all about how they prefer the GPL and then segues into announcing that Java has been open sourced (under the GPL), Finally, Noel Poore and I used to work at Tadpole Technology, Plc together. (George Grey was the original Founder and CEO at both Tadpole and SavaJe.) If you don't know who Noel is, I suggest you check the SavaJe 'management' web page. Or my latest blog post: http://www.smallworks.com/archives/0489.htm (And yes, I did exchange email with Noel today.) Or you could continue to FUD. With the 20/20 hindsight of history, it turns out that ESR was wrong about many things, including being dead wrong about Sun. Sun *owns* the copyright to all of Java, and can offer it under a non-GPL license. Who might want to *pay* Sun for Free Software? Motorola, for one. Ed Zander (CEO of MOT, ex-COO of Sun) and McNeally (ex-CEO of Sun) golf together. Eric Schmidt (CEO of Google) used to work for McNeally and with Zander. If you *don't* think that the deal to get Java FX Mobile on MOT's handsets was done prior to this announcement, and you don't
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Somehow that doesn't sound right to me. Like in the movies, when they try to hack a computer: there is always some OVERWRITE command, that doesn't require a password but will grand you access to all the files. Same applies here. Why put a safety-measure in place if you plan to ignore it anyway? ;-) On 5/10/07, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Coenen wrote: On 5/10/07, *Aloril* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? No it won't be able to charge the Neo1973, since it doesn't identify itself as a USB2.0 host. Hence, the Neo will only draw 100mA. You need the full 500mA from USB2.0 to charge. Unless you apply the soon-to-be-created patch that someone (maybe me) will write that draws 500mA anyway, if the host does not talk USB1 to us in 10 seconds. Maybe even with a confirmation dialog box. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
I know its bad form to respond to one's own posting, but watch the end of the 'webcast' around the 15:00 mark, just after McNealy gets up to talk about Curriki, and then compares Rich Green to Jobs, where Jonathan Schwartz turns to ask Rich Green: JS: Rich, how would you feel about someone taking the JavaFX Mobile stack we just talked about and created an independent device, just took the code, paid Sun nothing, just created a $50 device or a $30 device? RG: To reach everyone? JS: Everyone RG: Perfect! Its just perfect. JS: So thats what we're trying to do, create an open platform that is truly open source... Apple just got its iPhone shoved into a dark, damp orifice. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Frank Coenen wrote: Somehow that doesn't sound right to me. Like in the movies, when they try to hack a computer: there is always some OVERWRITE command, that doesn't require a password but will grand you access to all the files. Same applies here. Why put a safety-measure in place if you plan to ignore it anyway? ;-) Because if you have 5V connected, but the host is not talking in host protocol, that itself violates the USB protocol to a degree. This is not a safety issue. All USB hosts have some form of current limiting. Worst case is that you plug something that takes 500mA into a USB port that can't take it, is the bus resets. And even that wouldn't happen if the host is actively behaving as a USB host. If it's not, then the bus resetting doesn't really matter so much, as it's not using the bus. There are _lots_ of 'USB fan' or 'USB light''s that are out there. These just treat the USB port as a source of 500mA. Manufacturing a host that will die when you plug in one of these will lead to _lots_ of returns. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Frank Coenen writes: On 5/10/07, Aloril [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? No it won't be able to charge the Neo1973, since it doesn't identify itself as a USB2.0 host. Hence, the Neo will only draw 100mA. You need the full 500mA from USB2.0 to charge. That doesn't follow -- USB 1.1 allows a device to identify itself as high power, and it can then be allowed to draw 5 unit loads (500 mA). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Ian Stirling writes: Unless you apply the soon-to-be-created patch that someone (maybe me) will write that draws 500mA anyway, if the host does not talk USB1 to us in 10 seconds. Maybe even with a confirmation dialog box. But a USB 2.0 host will talk 1.1 quite happily... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp Of course it is, since Sun owns the Copyright, they can distribute non-GPL versions of the code to those who want them (and are willing to pay.) MySQL does this too. OTOH: Sun will ship a pre-integrated, GPL-licensable, Linux- and Java-based operating system software reference design for mobile phones, it announced at its JavaOne conference today in San Francisco. All JavaFX products will be available under the GNU GPL, Sun said. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7539760574.html Excellent, this is very reassuring. I did some searching, but didn't find any explicit statements regarding the whole FX stack, but this definately answers my question. And you could have *AT LEAST* quoted the entire paragraph of the press release: http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2007-05/sunflash.20070508.1.xml I didn't quote the press release but the JavaFX product page. Since GPLing the stack is a selling point (at least, from my perspective), Sun should mention that right there. However, thanks for pointing me to the press release. It makes the issue very clear. Me, I think Java is a four-letter word yeah, it means Just Another Vague Acronym, right? :) Or, you could listen to/watch the webcast where Rich Green is talking all about how they prefer the GPL and then segues into announcing that Java has been open sourced (under the GPL), being a developer, I kinda hate ambiguity. I interpreted this as 'the VM/JDK has been open sourced'. That doesn't necessarily mean technologies on top of that are open sourced. Or you could continue to FUD. With the 20/20 hindsight of history, it turns out that ESR was wrong about many things, including being dead wrong about Sun. well it was not my intention to spread FUD, but since this is the Openmoko mailing list, it should be very clear what the degree of openness is. ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
TaskManager is one ugly piece of... UI
Hey After spending a day or so working over my P1, I have to ask if the TaskManager is slated for removal or improvement. It is the single worst component of user interface on the whole device... - switching apps on every other platform is a single click on the task name - selecting the application from a fuzzy list and clicking on a horseshoe with a green blob is not intuitive - TaskManger ends up looking like the Home menu but of course behaving totally differently - the X on the left sometimes closes the task manager and sometimes closes an app depending on the selection - it's not clear what the turning arrow button does until you use it a few times - it's not clear what the benefit or advantage is to closing the task manager or clicking the turning arrow to hide it - when it's running the task manager takes a slot in the lower-right-corner switcher button, adding further confusion I see two ways to improve it: 1. Remove TaskManager entirely. Use the other switcher and fix the close option in the apps so it doesn't kill the bottom bar. 2. Make the lower-left-corner button bring up a popup menu with each application listed and an X after each name if you wanted to close it. (It could even be scrollable or tiled if it'll grows too long, but that will be the unusual case.) With a popup, we get back to what people expect in task switching and it's simple and clear to understand what this thing is for. It also would go away when you click somewhere else instead of cluttering up the notion of what is running. There's plenty of talk about how neo compares to iPhone and we have a huge potential here to show them up in some areas, but I do know Apple would never let such a flawed UI element out the door. Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
btw: That's only works if the port you connect to allows high power devices. Most laptops have only one physical port which will let you enumerate as a high power device, and sometimes even that port only allows it when you're plugged in. So, hopefully the phone will be able to attempt enumeration as a high-power device first, and if nak'd, enumerate as a low-power device. In that case, it would be nice if there was some indication that the battery isn't being charged, or isn't being charged very quickly, whatever the case would be. Also, I haven't checked, but I'm assuming the Neo is a full-speed device. If that's so, there's really no difference to speak of from usb1.1 and usb2.0. both specs have full speed devices, with little changes in 2.0. usb2.0 added high-speed devices. I often hear people say usb2.0 when they mean high-speed, but the two are not equal. Just want to make sure that isn't happening here. --Steve On 5/10/07, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Coenen writes: On 5/10/07, Aloril [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Small battery-powered USB charger: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ I assume above should be able to charge Neo1973? No it won't be able to charge the Neo1973, since it doesn't identify itself as a USB2.0 host. Hence, the Neo will only draw 100mA. You need the full 500mA from USB2.0to charge. That doesn't follow -- USB 1.1 allows a device to identify itself as high power, and it can then be allowed to draw 5 unit loads (500 mA). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub
Steven Milburn writes: btw: That's only works if the port you connect to allows high power devices. Most laptops have only one physical port which will let you enumerate as a high power device, and sometimes even that port only allows it when you're plugged in. So, hopefully the phone will be able to attempt enumeration as a high-power device first, and if nak'd, enumerate as a low-power device. In that case, it would be nice if there was some indication that the battery isn't being charged, or isn't being charged very quickly, whatever the case would be. That's correct, and you're right -- it would be good to have an indication. What I'm having a hard time figuring out is why people make comments about needing USB 2.0 to get 500 mA -- when that's simply not so... Also, I haven't checked, but I'm assuming the Neo is a full-speed device. If that's so, there's really no difference to speak of from usb1.1 and usb2.0. both specs have full speed devices, with little changes in 2.0. usb2.0 added high-speed devices. I often hear people say usb2.0 when they mean high-speed, but the two are not equal. Just want to make sure that isn't happening here. I'd have to look it up again, but my impression is that it's a full speed device. As for 2.0 != high speed -- I don't remember anything else 2.0 gives you that 1.1 doesn't... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. As for the comparison of JavaFX Mobile with the iPhone: Sure, at first it looks like a me too play, but I think this applies to the whole mobile industry. The iPhone was a major wake-up call to the industry and so I think you will see many iPhone knock-offs over the next 18 months simply because the iPhone is leading the way. However, JavaFX Mobile is distinctly different in that it will be an open system (not closed as the iPhone) and will be part of a multi-screen approach that delivers content across desktops, TV, and mobile. Only Java currently has that market reach so Sun would be ill-advised *not* to capitalize that. Cheers, -- Terrence Shawn Rutledge wrote: I'm very disappointed that Sun has put off hardware-accelerated Java devices and Java operating systems for so long (they could have done this at least 5 years ago, if not more). The much-vaunted Java Chips never materialized in significant quantities of devices. The Java Station had such disappointing performance (and why? it could have been much better). And now just because the iPhone is coming out Sun suddenly decided to present an impression of being on the ball. Coming out now, it just looks like a lame me too play. Of course its performance probably still sucks... it will be a pleasant and unexpected surprise if not. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community begin:vcard fn:Terrence Barr n:Barr;Terrence org:Sun Microsystems adr:;;Zettachring 10 A;Stuttgart;;70587;Germany email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded Community tel;work:+49 711 720 98185 url:http://www.mobileandembedded.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
firefox for mobiles
yowza! Looks like our favorite Web browser is about to go mobile. Mozilla head honcho, Mitchell Baker, told the folks at APC magazine that Mozilla is working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. It's a long-term project (meaning it's not coming out any time soon), but the goal is to allow it to work with all the add-ons and plug-ins that the full version works with. link to short story with link to full story below -- Forwarded message -- From: Craig Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: SVHMPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SVHMPC] Hot dang http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/firefox-to-go/mozilla-prepping-a-mobile-firefox-browser-259491.php ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: TaskManager is one ugly piece of... UI
Jon 2. Make the lower-left-corner button bring up a popup menu with each application listed and an X after each name if you wanted to close it. Brad, this is still at the development stages, so it is really up to us to fix it. Could you please contribute some code, mockups, etc, to help with this? the #2 proposal is the one I'd prefer to get. I think it's pretty clear how it would look without building a mockup. I wouldn't write prototype code unless the idea was agreed on in principle. Is there a UI committee? :) Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded wrote: Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. It turns out to be difficult to make Java go really fast on specialized hardware. Java wasn't designed to be fast, it was designed to be 'safe' for large groups of programmers to use. You can get single order of magnitude speed-ups for some bytecode streams, but you won't see two. I (too) looked at doing a Java chip (very early, back in 1996 or so). Moore's law continues to march on, only now instead of (super)-linear speed-up on a single core, we're getting multiple cores. Java will be OK with 'multi-core', but won't survive the transition to 'manycore' ( 100 cores), nor will Python, PHP or Perl. This may not matter on a phone platform, but the desktop and server will distance themselves from co-operating sequential processes before too much longer. As for the comparison of JavaFX Mobile with the iPhone: Sure, at first it looks like a me too play, but I think this applies to the whole mobile industry. The iPhone was a major wake-up call to the industry and so I think you will see many iPhone knock-offs over the next 18 months simply because the iPhone is leading the way. The only question is if the rest of the industry 'woke up' enough to see the light of cracking the phone wide-open. If not, they are doomed. Bill Joy explained it a long time ago. Lemma 1: # smart employees = log(# of employees) -- there are more smart people outside your organization than inside it Lemma 2: Innovation will occur Lemma 1 tells us that it will occur elsewhere. Question: How do you take advantage of innovation that occurs outside the organization? Answer: Open Source Of course, FOSS is one answer, there are others, but stating the answer without knowing the question is Jeopardy! However, JavaFX Mobile is distinctly different in that it will be an open system (not closed as the iPhone) and will be part of a multi-screen approach that delivers content across desktops, TV, and mobile. Only Java currently has that market reach so Sun would be ill-advised *not* to capitalize that. Even then, Java, even JavaFX is not the web. http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/05/10/the-high-cost-of-some-free-tools/ Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: TaskManager is one ugly piece of... UI
On Thu, 2007-05-10 at 18:22 -0600, Brad Midgley wrote: Jon 2. Make the lower-left-corner button bring up a popup menu with each application listed and an X after each name if you wanted to close it. Brad, this is still at the development stages, so it is really up to us to fix it. Could you please contribute some code, mockups, etc, to help with this? the #2 proposal is the one I'd prefer to get. I think it's pretty clear how it would look without building a mockup. I wouldn't write prototype code unless the idea was agreed on in principle. Is there a UI committee? :) Brad I like the motto we use in Inkscape: patch first, discuss later. Maybe we can adopt that with openmoko as well. So, please submit a patch. Jon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: firefox for mobiles
If it's anything like mozilla/firefox now, we're gonna need a hefty battery, hugely more cpu, and about 1G of ram onboard. I used to love FF, now it's just a cpu/ram hog that usually gets killed by the kernel every 36-48 hours for taking about 2G of ram. The mozilla team needs to figure out how to slim down in a huge way before putting moz on a fone. Minimo is a good idea but very very slow and quickly eats up all the ram on a phone. Great idea, very bad implementation, and for some reason I still prefer it over other browsers. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yowza! Looks like our favorite Web browser is about to go mobile. Mozilla head honcho, Mitchell Baker, told the folks at APC magazine that Mozilla is working on a Firefox to go for your cellphone. It's a long-term project (meaning it's not coming out any time soon), but the goal is to allow it to work with all the add-ons and plug-ins that the full version works with. link to short story with link to full story below -- Forwarded message -- From: Craig Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: SVHMPC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SVHMPC] Hot dang http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/firefox-to-go/mozilla-prepping-a-mobile-firefox-browser-259491.php ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
