Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Jason Elwell]

I dont know whats more sad... You creating a paperdoll of an OpenMoko, or the 
fact that I downloaded it and made one for myself!  LOL!

Hopefully it will confort me till I get the real thing.  :)

-Jason


On Monday 14 May 2007 15:40:31 Ole Tange wrote:
> On 5/14/07, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I would be interested to know what you thought were strong suits of the
> > phone.  Programs you liked, and other things that the phone does well. 
> > Just curious I guess.  I like hearing about the phone from people who
> > have actual models.
>
> It is a developer phone, so it is hardly surprising that the quality
> of the software is lacking. Thus, I have so far not been able to place
> a call. The other applications can hardly be called strong.
>
> The size is surprisingly accurate to my paperdoll
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/27/Neo1973-doll.pdf So if you want
> to get a feel of how big it is - print it out and start folding. A
> picture of the (bangend up) doll, a couple of phones and a CD is here:
> https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:PhoneSizeComparison.jpg
>
> /Ole
>
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RE: Sun JavaFx

[Dean Collins]

Hi Stefano,

Sorry for the delayed response been away for a few days. Yep will be
very interesting to see how Sun commercializes the Savaje intellectual
property they purchased from the liquidated assets.

 

One of my clients www.Mexuar.com   built a
number of applications for the Savaje launch in SF 2006 so we are
watching this recent announcement with anticipation. Will be an
interesting few months to say the least. 

 

 

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 +1-212-203-4357 Ph
+1-917-207-3420 Mb
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).

    
 
 

 

> -Original Message-

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stefano Sanna

> Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2007 1:01 AM

> To: community@lists.openmoko.org

> Subject: Re: Sun JavaFx

> 

> Marco Miani wrote:

>  > Hi

>  >

>  > I've  just read this

>  >

>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=163
10

>  >

>  > about sun JavaFx  and a mockup of a phone that will be presented

>  > soon  WTF it's a Neo

>  >

>  > somebody knows something more ?

> 

> I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX

> scripting).

> 

> 

> Cheers,

> Stefano.

> 

> --

> Stefano Sanna - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Personal web site: http://www.gerdavax.it

> AIM: gerdavax - Skype: gerdavax - Callsign: IS0DZE

> 

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Cameo Appearance

[Duncan Hudson]

I was leafing through eWeek today (it's not much a magazine anymore) and 
stumbled upon an article about Sun's new JavaFX scripting language.  
There's a picture of Sun's Rich Green holding an Orange OpenMoko during 
a presentation!  There's also a close up of a black unit with FIC 
printed on it.  Just thought it was cool.


Dunc

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Re: Durability of the Neo1973?

[Jon Phillips]

On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 22:07 -0400, Alan Ide wrote:
> Agreed. It has been REALLY quite for the last month or so. We still
> dont have any "verified" working phase 1. We havent heard anything
> about the production run. We havent heard jack about the phase 1+. Its
> starting to feel like we are being very left out of the loop. And
> since its us the "development community" that is going to take this
> thing to the next level once it is released, it kind of leaves a bad
> taste in my mouth that we are being so left out of the loop. Just my 2
> cents. 

Heya guys, keep up the cheer :) This is a kick ass project and
developing hardware just takes time.

Also, there is plenty to do with the development trees open...what's
your fancy?

Jon

> On 5/14/07, Jason Elwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Monday 14 May 2007 14:46:08 Duncan Hudson wrote:
> > So, if I was a betting man I'd say that it either
> > didn't go off, or another show stopper / slip causer popped
> up.
> 
> Lets hope you are a crappy gambler.  :) 
> 
> Seriously though, It is starting to get a little annoying that
> we have not
> heard anything.  Is it just my imagination, or has Sean been
> alot quieter for
> the last month or so?
> I am sure the FIC guys are working like mad to get this phone
> out the door, 
> but, like many of us, I have been waiting for my Moko since
> January.  I am
> SOooo ready to get it in my hands!
> 
> -Jason
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
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San Francisco, CA
USA PH 510.499.0894
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.rejon.org

MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Durability of the Neo1973?

[Alan Ide]

Agreed. It has been REALLY quite for the last month or so. We still dont
have any "verified" working phase 1. We havent heard anything about the
production run. We havent heard jack about the phase 1+. Its starting to
feel like we are being very left out of the loop. And since its us the
"development community" that is going to take this thing to the next level
once it is released, it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth that we are
being so left out of the loop. Just my 2 cents.

On 5/14/07, Jason Elwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Monday 14 May 2007 14:46:08 Duncan Hudson wrote:
> So, if I was a betting man I'd say that it either
> didn't go off, or another show stopper / slip causer popped up.

Lets hope you are a crappy gambler.  :)

Seriously though, It is starting to get a little annoying that we have not
heard anything.  Is it just my imagination, or has Sean been alot quieter
for
the last month or so?
I am sure the FIC guys are working like mad to get this phone out the
door,
but, like many of us, I have been waiting for my Moko since January.  I am
SOooo ready to get it in my hands!

-Jason



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Re: Durability of the Neo1973?

[Jason Elwell]

On Monday 14 May 2007 14:46:08 Duncan Hudson wrote:
> So, if I was a betting man I'd say that it either
> didn't go off, or another show stopper / slip causer popped up.

Lets hope you are a crappy gambler.  :)

Seriously though, It is starting to get a little annoying that we have not 
heard anything.  Is it just my imagination, or has Sean been alot quieter for 
the last month or so?  
I am sure the FIC guys are working like mad to get this phone out the door, 
but, like many of us, I have been waiting for my Moko since January.  I am 
SOooo ready to get it in my hands!

-Jason



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Re: Tactile Feedback

[Ole Tange]

On 5/14/07, Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I had mentioned this before, but it didn't get much conversation since
it was deep within a thread.  Anyway, since there are no hardware
buttons for input, could we not use the vibrator to give a quick pulse
so that you still have some feedback as to when a button is pressed?  It
might go a long way in making hardware keyboard less entry more acceptable.

http://www.time4.com/time4/microsites/popsci/howitworks/cellphone_motor.html

Any thoughts?


It was discussed here:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000917.html

I have updated the wiki with the idea of adding sound and visuals.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/VibratorAsKeyboardClick

/Ole

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Phase 1+ discount quantity

[mathew davis]

Yeah I can't imagine FIC doing even a 1:2 ratio.  Unless the discount isn't
substantial by any means.  Like $5 dollars off and a 1:5 ration maybe but
then that wouldn't really be a great discount would it.  I just can't see
them doing anything but a 1:1 ratio.  But that's just my opinion

On 5/14/07, Ole Tange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 5/14/07, Ben Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The details of the P1+ discount for people who buy a P1 aren't out yet
> but I wanted to put forward this question anyway.
>
> Do you think this discount will be locked in a 1:1 relationship?
> ie, buy one P1 and get a discount on one P1+
> Or do you think we will be able to buy say, two discounted P1+ phones
even
> if we only bought one P1 phone?

The details are not know as of now. We do not even know if there will
be a discount at all.

Personally, if I was FIC I would let it be a 1:1, so if you buy 1
phone, you can get  1 phone of the next model with a discount.


/Ole

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Re: accelerometer in neo?

[Doncho N. Gunchev]

On Monday 2007-05-14 14:33:48 Ian Stirling wrote:
> Robin Paulson wrote:
> > i've been thinking recently about other applications for the openmoko,
> > beyond the usual phone/maps/gps/internet access, and a couple of them
> > require an accelerometer
> > 
> > i could find no mention of one in the wiki, either in the hardware
> > list or the wish list. does anyone have any ideas?
> 
> A) you should have looked harder.
> B) I should have tried editing the wiki harder, to make things stand out 
> more.
> Look at wishlist:hardware in the wiki
> 

Yes, it's there and would make a terrific mouse for my laptop ;-)

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Re: Tactile Feedback

[Doncho N. Gunchev]

On Monday 2007-05-14 17:47:27 Jonathon Suggs wrote:
> I had mentioned this before, but it didn't get much conversation since 
> it was deep within a thread.  Anyway, since there are no hardware 
> buttons for input, could we not use the vibrator to give a quick pulse 
> so that you still have some feedback as to when a button is pressed?  It 
> might go a long way in making hardware keyboard less entry more acceptable.
> 
> http://www.time4.com/time4/microsites/popsci/howitworks/cellphone_motor.html
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 

Don't know, should try this first but I would preffer an option to turn this 
off (just like
I turn all sort of key/screen touch sounds off very soon).

-- 
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  Doncho N. Gunchev, GPG key ID: 0EF40B9E, Key server: pgp.mit.edu

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Re: USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)

[Jeff Andros]

On 5/14/07, Ole Tange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 5/14/07, Doncho N. Gunchev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

However, I too am under the impression that only software is needed to
have the USB-connector act like a host.

/Ole

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as am I, but don't forget you'd need to inject power to run the card reader


--
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)

[Ole Tange]

On 5/14/07, Doncho N. Gunchev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Monday 2007-05-14 11:57:09 Hans van der Merwe wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how much work it will be to get the USB host working? I
> will need it to drive a webcam for one of my projects.
>
> Will this be possible?

If not done, you can still use microSD card with micro to SD convertor, right?


Not really. The microSD in the phone is located below the SIMcard and
below the battery:
https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Gta01b_v3_case_back_open_white.jpg

However, I too am under the impression that only software is needed to
have the USB-connector act like a host.

/Ole

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Re: Phase 1+ discount quantity

[Ole Tange]

On 5/14/07, Ben Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi everyone,

The details of the P1+ discount for people who buy a P1 aren't out yet
but I wanted to put forward this question anyway.

Do you think this discount will be locked in a 1:1 relationship?
ie, buy one P1 and get a discount on one P1+
Or do you think we will be able to buy say, two discounted P1+ phones even
if we only bought one P1 phone?


The details are not know as of now. We do not even know if there will
be a discount at all.

Personally, if I was FIC I would let it be a 1:1, so if you buy 1
phone, you can get  1 phone of the next model with a discount.


/Ole

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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Ole Tange]

On 5/14/07, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I would be interested to know what you thought were strong suits of the
phone.  Programs you liked, and other things that the phone does well.  Just
curious I guess.  I like hearing about the phone from people who have actual
models.


It is a developer phone, so it is hardly surprising that the quality
of the software is lacking. Thus, I have so far not been able to place
a call. The other applications can hardly be called strong.

The size is surprisingly accurate to my paperdoll
http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/2/27/Neo1973-doll.pdf So if you want
to get a feel of how big it is - print it out and start folding. A
picture of the (bangend up) doll, a couple of phones and a CD is here:
https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:PhoneSizeComparison.jpg

/Ole

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Re: USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)

[Doncho N. Gunchev]

On Monday 2007-05-14 11:57:09 Hans van der Merwe wrote:
> 
> > >(At a high level, my use case is "take pictures from my real camera
> > >and upload them directly to flickr" :-)  That requires either an SD
> > >slot, or USB host to talk to the card directly (or USB to talk to the
> > >camera, but that's less portable.) I'm trying to see if I can do this
> > >with the FIC1973, possibly with simple warrantee violating hardware
> > >enhancements...)
> > 
> > It's my understanding that it would "only" require software changes.
> > 
> 
> Does anyone know how much work it will be to get the USB host working? I
> will need it to drive a webcam for one of my projects.
> 
> Will this be possible?

If not done, you can still use microSD card with micro to SD convertor, right?

-- 
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Re: accelerometer in neo?

[Ian Stirling]

Crane, Matthew wrote:

So what would one do with a cell phone with an embedded gps assisted
inertial guidance system?  Tape a rocket motor to the back for a new way
to destroy the iPhone?  


To be boringly pedantic.
An inertial guidance system is not possible with simply a 3 axis 
accelerometer.
You need at least three angular rate sensors to pick up the roll, pitch, 
and yaw. (which way it points)
In practice, semiconductor inertial guidance at the moment isn't 
suitable for more than a few seconds at a time.
The drift rate is _horrible_ - a kilometer position uncertainty after 3 
minutes, 400Km in an hour.




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Re: firefox for mobiles

[Myk Melez]

David Ford wrote:
Even with tuning, FF is a dastard piggy.  I've tested things with FF. 
Start it with no history, no recovered session.  Load up digg.com and do

nothing.  Just let it sit there.  It will sit there and slowly grow and
grow and grow.  The caching isn't the problem, that's tunable.  The
problem is the memory leaks -- all the valgrind reports turned into moz
teams (and ignored).
  
I tried this over the weekend, creating a fresh profile for Firefox, 
starting it up, loading digg.com into it, and then letting it sit for a 
day.  Memory consumption stayed constant.


I'm using the latest nightly version of Firefox 2.0 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; 
U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4pre) Gecko/20070513 BonEcho/2.0.0.4pre) 
on Ubuntu Linux 6.10.


-myk


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Re: Durability of the Neo1973?

[Duncan Hudson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Jefe..

This is just my opinion here, but I don't see the Neo1973 to be a mass
consumer device, nor do I think that is/was FIC's/OpenMoko's intent.  The
1973 is a SW Developer/"Bleeding Edge Adopter" platform.  Its a starting
place and an incubator for ideas. I would not expect serious drop hardening
until the third and fourth generation of the series.
  
Right, the first version isn't supposed to be a mass market consumer 
device.  But I believe the intention
is that the version that was intended to ship in September was to be a 
mass market device.



And er, Sean...  How's that dang production run going?  Got my credit card
in my breast pocket just waiting.
  
Well, the 1st production run was scheduled for the 10th, and it's now 
the 14th.  We've yet to hear
a peep from anyone.  So, if I was a betting man I'd say that it either 
didn't go off, or another

show stopper / slip causer popped up.

Dunc

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RE: accelerometer in neo?

[Crane, Matthew]

So what would one do with a cell phone with an embedded gps assisted
inertial guidance system?  Tape a rocket motor to the back for a new way
to destroy the iPhone?  


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:20 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo? 


ST makes a 3 axis mems accelerometers that speak SPI [and I2C].  VTI
has I2C only and SPI ones.  I have the SPI/I2C one [LIS3LV02DL] made
by ST but I don't have it working yet.  I'm still in awe of how small
it is -- much smaller than a tic-tac candy.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=197587&Si
te=US&Cat=35783228
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12094/lis3lv02dl.pdf

It was ~$14.  Dirt cheap for what it does.  If what people say about
"wasted space" inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in
there when I get my phone.  Maybe some mems rate sensors too.  Now
that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS!

-erik

> I'm not sure about that.  I guess it depends on the specifics of the
> application, but there is no 3-axis spi version of the alg dev mems
> chips afaik.  The SPI chips are much more expensive (obviously there
are
> costs wrt SPI alternatives) and targeted. =20
> 
> http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,ADXL330,00.html
>
http://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%255F801%255F0%255F%255F0%255F
> ,00.html
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ian Stirling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:30 PM
> To: Crane, Matthew
> Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo?
> 
> Crane, Matthew wrote:
> > Hi,=20
> >=20
> > Wouldn't expansion via existing usb or BT be preferable?  If a few
> types
> > of hardware that's accessable via these ports has been developed
with
> > some sort of driver and application then further development will
have
> a
> > foundation to work off of and the usefullness will be clear for
> > incorporation into later versions of the phone.
> >=20
> > E.g, rather then embed the accelerometer in this version of the
phone,
> > use the ezusb chip to develop the application. =20
> 
> No.
> There are reportedly solderable to SPI pins inside the chip.
> You can directly connect some accelerometer chips to these with=20
> absolutely no circuitry.
> 
> 
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RE: Durability of the Neo1973?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Jefe..

This is just my opinion here, but I don't see the Neo1973 to be a mass
consumer device, nor do I think that is/was FIC's/OpenMoko's intent.  The
1973 is a SW Developer/"Bleeding Edge Adopter" platform.  Its a starting
place and an incubator for ideas. I would not expect serious drop hardening
until the third and fourth generation of the series.

And er, Sean...  How's that dang production run going?  Got my credit card
in my breast pocket just waiting.

Original Message:
-
From: el jefe delito [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:05:38 -0500
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Durability of the Neo1973?


I was just looking at my current phone's size to compare it to the reports
of the Neo1973, and I dropped my phone.  I do this a lot, and the phone has
held up.  Each new phone I purchase is due to a battery issue only.  I have
never broke a phone due to it falling (but I have broke an iPod due to the
internal drive failing after a fall!)

Considering that the Neo1973 has no hard drive, how well should we expect
the rest of the hardware to hold up due to falls, drops, etc?

-- 
start using Free software
  http://www.linux.org
  http://www.fsf.org
It's a matter of Liberty not Price:
  "Free Software exists to free you from the artificial constraints set by
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Durability of the Neo1973?

[el jefe delito]

I was just looking at my current phone's size to compare it to the reports
of the Neo1973, and I dropped my phone.  I do this a lot, and the phone has
held up.  Each new phone I purchase is due to a battery issue only.  I have
never broke a phone due to it falling (but I have broke an iPod due to the
internal drive failing after a fall!)

Considering that the Neo1973 has no hard drive, how well should we expect
the rest of the hardware to hold up due to falls, drops, etc?

--
start using Free software
 http://www.linux.org
 http://www.fsf.org
It's a matter of Liberty not Price:
 "Free Software exists to free you from the artificial constraints set by
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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[el jefe delito]

I too would love to hear more about the phone, even if its an early
release.  Take it outside for us, and tell us about the sunlight reading!
Send us a photo of it being 'big', maybe in comparison to another phone or a
soda can or mouse pad!

Does anyone know if there are plans for the final design to be shrunk down a
bit, if there really seems to be this much empty space?

FYI my Nokia bar phone (don't know the model but its been pretty standard
over the last three phones like this) has the Call/Answer on the left, and
disconnect on the right.


--
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 http://www.linux.org
 http://www.fsf.org
It's a matter of Liberty not Price:
 "Free Software exists to free you from the artificial constraints set by
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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Thomas Gstädtner]

The same for me. Especially I'm interessted in the speed, the phone
functions (address book, dialer, history, ...) and the voice quality.

2007/5/14, mathew davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


I would be interested to know what you thought were strong suits of the
phone.  Programs you liked, and other things that the phone does well.  Just
curious I guess.  I like hearing about the phone from people who have actual
models.

Thanks,
Matt

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Re: accelerometer in neo?

[esw]

ST makes a 3 axis mems accelerometers that speak SPI [and I2C].  VTI
has I2C only and SPI ones.  I have the SPI/I2C one [LIS3LV02DL] made
by ST but I don't have it working yet.  I'm still in awe of how small
it is -- much smaller than a tic-tac candy.

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=197587&Site=US&Cat=35783228
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12094/lis3lv02dl.pdf

It was ~$14.  Dirt cheap for what it does.  If what people say about
"wasted space" inside the neo is true then I'm hoping to cram one in
there when I get my phone.  Maybe some mems rate sensors too.  Now
that's _my_ kind of augmented GPS!

-erik

> I'm not sure about that.  I guess it depends on the specifics of the
> application, but there is no 3-axis spi version of the alg dev mems
> chips afaik.  The SPI chips are much more expensive (obviously there are
> costs wrt SPI alternatives) and targeted. =20
> 
> http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,ADXL330,00.html
> http://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%255F801%255F0%255F%255F0%255F
> ,00.html
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ian Stirling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:30 PM
> To: Crane, Matthew
> Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo?
> 
> Crane, Matthew wrote:
> > Hi,=20
> >=20
> > Wouldn't expansion via existing usb or BT be preferable?  If a few
> types
> > of hardware that's accessable via these ports has been developed with
> > some sort of driver and application then further development will have
> a
> > foundation to work off of and the usefullness will be clear for
> > incorporation into later versions of the phone.
> >=20
> > E.g, rather then embed the accelerometer in this version of the phone,
> > use the ezusb chip to develop the application. =20
> 
> No.
> There are reportedly solderable to SPI pins inside the chip.
> You can directly connect some accelerometer chips to these with=20
> absolutely no circuitry.
> 
> 
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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[mathew davis]

I would be interested to know what you thought were strong suits of the
phone.  Programs you liked, and other things that the phone does well.  Just
curious I guess.  I like hearing about the phone from people who have actual
models.

Thanks,
Matt
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RE: accelerometer in neo?

[Crane, Matthew]

I'm not sure about that.  I guess it depends on the specifics of the
application, but there is no 3-axis spi version of the alg dev mems
chips afaik.  The SPI chips are much more expensive (obviously there are
costs wrt SPI alternatives) and targeted.  

http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,ADXL330,00.html
http://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%255F801%255F0%255F%255F0%255F
,00.html

Matt


-Original Message-
From: Ian Stirling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:30 PM
To: Crane, Matthew
Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo?

Crane, Matthew wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Wouldn't expansion via existing usb or BT be preferable?  If a few
types
> of hardware that's accessable via these ports has been developed with
> some sort of driver and application then further development will have
a
> foundation to work off of and the usefullness will be clear for
> incorporation into later versions of the phone.
> 
> E.g, rather then embed the accelerometer in this version of the phone,
> use the ezusb chip to develop the application.  

No.
There are reportedly solderable to SPI pins inside the chip.
You can directly connect some accelerometer chips to these with 
absolutely no circuitry.


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Re: accelerometer in neo?

[Ian Stirling]

Crane, Matthew wrote:
Hi, 


Wouldn't expansion via existing usb or BT be preferable?  If a few types
of hardware that's accessable via these ports has been developed with
some sort of driver and application then further development will have a
foundation to work off of and the usefullness will be clear for
incorporation into later versions of the phone.

E.g, rather then embed the accelerometer in this version of the phone,
use the ezusb chip to develop the application.  


No.
There are reportedly solderable to SPI pins inside the chip.
You can directly connect some accelerometer chips to these with 
absolutely no circuitry.



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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Hans van der Merwe]

On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 15:53 +0200, Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd.
wrote:
> Piotr Duda napisał(a):
> > models) use the reject-on-left and answer-on-right style. Maybe Im mistaken 
> > but I always tought that
> > all others just do the oposite? Have no idea where did it come from, 
> > considering that first mobile
> > phones was made in Motorola as I believe, and others perhaps should follow. 
> > But since the most
> >  
> The problem is same as slash and backslash or little endian and big
> endian. People just love incompatibility...
>

No they dont, just money hungry monopolist like it.
But thats another thread on another forum.





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Tactile Feedback

[Jonathon Suggs]

I had mentioned this before, but it didn't get much conversation since 
it was deep within a thread.  Anyway, since there are no hardware 
buttons for input, could we not use the vibrator to give a quick pulse 
so that you still have some feedback as to when a button is pressed?  It 
might go a long way in making hardware keyboard less entry more acceptable.


http://www.time4.com/time4/microsites/popsci/howitworks/cellphone_motor.html

Any thoughts?

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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[John Locke]

Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. wrote:
> Piotr Duda napisał(a):
>> models) use the reject-on-left and answer-on-right style. Maybe Im mistaken 
>> but I always tought that
>> all others just do the oposite? Have no idea where did it come from, 
>> considering that first mobile
>> phones was made in Motorola as I believe, and others perhaps should follow. 
>> But since the most
>>   
> The problem is same as slash and backslash or little endian and big
> endian. People just love incompatibility...
Well, I can tell you not all Motorola phones are laid out like this. On
my Motorola phone, the call is on the right, and the disconnect on the
left. On my wife's Motorola phone, the call/OK is on the left, and the
cancel/disconnect on the right.

Messes both of us up all the time, when we use each other's phones!

Cheers,

-- 
John Locke
"Open Source Solutions for Small Business Problems"
published by Charles River Media, June 2004
http://www.freelock.com


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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Mikko J Rauhala]

On ma, 2007-05-14 at 07:21 -0500, Steven ** wrote:
> It also occurs to me that in an OK/Cancel dialog, OK is always on the
> left.  So again, consistency would suggest leaving it that way.

OpenMoko uses GTK, which per default uses the Mac-style "OK on bottom
right" approach, which I find to be better argued for. So, incorrect.

Also not all phones have answer/call on left and reject/end-call on
right, though it is true that it seems to be the majority vote. I have
seen phones where it is reversed, but don't recall the models.

I have no strong opinions on the answer/call and reject/end-call
ordering, but would like it if the GTK practice was adhered to. This
_would_ logically place also answer/call on the right, of course...

Perhaps for the answer/call buttons at least the order should be
settable, default maybe the order most phones do it in. (And of course
it is in the end settable anyway, but from a GUI ;)

-- 
Mikko J Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
University of Helsinki


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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Vincent]

On 14/05/07, Piotr Duda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>From all phones I saw being sold in Europe (and few years ago in Asia)
only Motorola (and not in all
models) use the reject-on-left and answer-on-right style. Maybe Im
mistaken but I always tought that
all others just do the oposite? Have no idea where did it come from,
considering that first mobile
phones was made in Motorola as I believe, and others perhaps should
follow. But since the most
phones use answer-on-left and reject-on-right style, it should be more
intuitive for most users
(despite that as right-handed I prefer Motorola style).
Maybe in future someone will implement some configuration or maybe some
different themes/skins will
be enough to choose which style is best for me. :-)



I guess when you hold a phone in your right hand, the left button is easiest
to hit with your thumb...

Piotr


Steven ** napisał(a):
> On 5/14/07, *Ole Tange* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> So to me the following actions should be put on the left side:
>
> left, undo, back, cancel, previous, no, reject-call
>
> and these should be put on the right hand side:
>
> right, apply, forward, OK, next, yes, answer-call, do-it
>
>
>
> I just want to point out that the Neo wouldn't be the only phone to put
> "answer-call" on the left and "reject-call/end" on the right.  I'm
> pretty sure every phone I've ever had did it that way as well.
> Definitely the phone I have right now has it that way.  So, for
> consistency, it makes sense to leave it that way.
>
> It also occurs to me that in an OK/Cancel dialog, OK is always on the
> left.  So again, consistency would suggest leaving it that way.
>
> -Steven
>
>
> 
>
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--
Vincent
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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd.]

Piotr Duda napisał(a):

models) use the reject-on-left and answer-on-right style. Maybe Im mistaken but 
I always tought that
all others just do the oposite? Have no idea where did it come from, 
considering that first mobile
phones was made in Motorola as I believe, and others perhaps should follow. But 
since the most
  
The problem is same as slash and backslash or little endian and big 
endian. People just love incompatibility...


Regards.
--
*Bartlomiej Zdanowski*
Programmer
Product Research & Development Department
AutoGuard & Insurance Ltd.

Omulewska 27 street
04-128 Warsaw
Poland
phone +48 22 611 69 23
www.autoguard.pl 
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RE: accelerometer in neo?

[Crane, Matthew]

Hi, 

Wouldn't expansion via existing usb or BT be preferable?  If a few types
of hardware that's accessable via these ports has been developed with
some sort of driver and application then further development will have a
foundation to work off of and the usefullness will be clear for
incorporation into later versions of the phone.

E.g, rather then embed the accelerometer in this version of the phone,
use the ezusb chip to develop the application.  

Matt
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Pfeiffer
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:50 AM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: accelerometer in neo?

Since SPI is available for IO (near as I can tell), there's something
to be said for an "expansion back" that would have room for a bunch of
optional peripherals in some sort of standard form facter...


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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Piotr Duda]

>From all phones I saw being sold in Europe (and few years ago in Asia) only 
>Motorola (and not in all
models) use the reject-on-left and answer-on-right style. Maybe Im mistaken but 
I always tought that
all others just do the oposite? Have no idea where did it come from, 
considering that first mobile
phones was made in Motorola as I believe, and others perhaps should follow. But 
since the most
phones use answer-on-left and reject-on-right style, it should be more 
intuitive for most users
(despite that as right-handed I prefer Motorola style).
Maybe in future someone will implement some configuration or maybe some 
different themes/skins will
be enough to choose which style is best for me. :-)

Piotr

Steven ** napisał(a):
> On 5/14/07, *Ole Tange* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> 
> So to me the following actions should be put on the left side:
> 
> left, undo, back, cancel, previous, no, reject-call
> 
> and these should be put on the right hand side:
> 
> right, apply, forward, OK, next, yes, answer-call, do-it 
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to point out that the Neo wouldn't be the only phone to put
> "answer-call" on the left and "reject-call/end" on the right.  I'm
> pretty sure every phone I've ever had did it that way as well. 
> Definitely the phone I have right now has it that way.  So, for
> consistency, it makes sense to leave it that way.
> 
> It also occurs to me that in an OK/Cancel dialog, OK is always on the
> left.  So again, consistency would suggest leaving it that way.
> 
> -Steven
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Steven **]

On 5/14/07, Ole Tange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


So to me the following actions should be put on the left side:

left, undo, back, cancel, previous, no, reject-call

and these should be put on the right hand side:

right, apply, forward, OK, next, yes, answer-call, do-it




I just want to point out that the Neo wouldn't be the only phone to put
"answer-call" on the left and "reject-call/end" on the right.  I'm pretty
sure every phone I've ever had did it that way as well.  Definitely the
phone I have right now has it that way.  So, for consistency, it makes sense
to leave it that way.

It also occurs to me that in an OK/Cancel dialog, OK is always on the left.
So again, consistency would suggest leaving it that way.

-Steven
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Re: accelerometer in neo?

[Ian Stirling]

Robin Paulson wrote:

i've been thinking recently about other applications for the openmoko,
beyond the usual phone/maps/gps/internet access, and a couple of them
require an accelerometer

i could find no mention of one in the wiki, either in the hardware
list or the wish list. does anyone have any ideas?


A) you should have looked harder.
B) I should have tried editing the wiki harder, to make things stand out 
more.

Look at wishlist:hardware in the wiki

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Re: USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)

[Ian Stirling]

Mark Eichin wrote:

Speaking of USB -- the openmoko has a USB device port on the side
(that's being discussed in this thread) and internally has a USB host,
according to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#USB_Host
but I what I haven't seen clarified - is the USB host port brought
outside at all?


The device port is also a host port.
You do something akin to echo host >/proc/usb/inout

You need to supply your own power.

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Re: Re:USB host connector? (was Re: Battery powered charging/USB hub)

[Hans van der Merwe]

On Sun, 2007-05-13 at 21:14 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> Mark Eichin writes:
> >Speaking of USB -- the openmoko has a USB device port on the side
> >(that's being discussed in this thread) and internally has a USB host,
> >according to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#USB_Host
> >but I what I haven't seen clarified - is the USB host port brought
> >outside at all?
> 
> Hardware yes, software no at present (I'm told).
> 
> The USB connector is actually a Mini-AB, so either a host or a device
> can be plugged in.  At present the software only enables the phone as
> a device (I'm not quite sure how the handshake would work to just
> notice that a device was plugged into it; it's not a full USB
> On-The-Go stack).
> 
> >(At a high level, my use case is "take pictures from my real camera
> >and upload them directly to flickr" :-)  That requires either an SD
> >slot, or USB host to talk to the card directly (or USB to talk to the
> >camera, but that's less portable.) I'm trying to see if I can do this
> >with the FIC1973, possibly with simple warrantee violating hardware
> >enhancements...)
> 
> It's my understanding that it would "only" require software changes.
> 

Does anyone know how much work it will be to get the USB host working? I
will need it to drive a webcam for one of my projects.

Will this be possible?





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Re: First impressions of Neo1973

[Ole Tange]

On 5/14/07, Ole Tange <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

= Hardware =


I have been asked which phone versions this covers

Phone version: GTA01B_V3 and GTA01B_V4

Both are phase-0 phones.

/Ole

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First impressions of Neo1973

[Ole Tange]

= Hardware =

== Size ==

The phone is BIG. There is no other word for it. It makes it even
worse when you open the phone and see that a lot of space is wasted:
Half of the thickness is taken by the battery, a very small vibrator,
2 small loud speakers and half of the 2 antennas - leaving 50% of half
of the phone as empty space. The carrying hole is just making this
worse. I am not sure if you could have made the phone slimmer, but it
seems that it would have been easy to make room for a battery twice
the size.

I usually carry my Siemens S55 and my Samsung NV3 camera in one
pocket. But swapping the S55 with the Neo is going to take some time
getting used to.


== The screen ==

The resolution of the screen is awesome. I still need to try it in sunshine.


== The hardware button ==

There is a hardware button on the left side. But it is hard to press
(I have to use force), which will limit its usefulness. Had it been
extended a few mm then it is in  the perfect location for my thumb and
might be useful as a CTRL key.


== The power button ==

To turn the phone on you have to hold the power button for 5 seconds.
You get no feedback during this and it is hard to feel if the button
is actually pressed. It would have been nice with some feedback. A
status LED would be sufficient.


== Connecting the USB ==

I still have doubt whether the USB cable is actually plugged in and
the phone charging, because I cannot turn on a completely discharged
phone as soon as I plug it in. If my Siemens S55 is completely
discharged I plug it in and from that second I can use the phone
normally again.

An LED on the phone to should it when it was charging and show when it
was ready to turn on would help a lot.


== The MicroSD holder ==

Putting the MicroSD card into the phone takes some practice. The
holder is very fragile, so you probably only want to do this once and
do data transfer via USB/Bluetooth.

If this is not improved for the mass market phone the package must
contain a "how-to-install-microSD-card" otherwise I predict broken
MicroSD holders.


= Software =

Software is very limited at this point: I have yet to place my first
call using the phone.


== Placement of buttons ==

I read from left to right. I will expect most people, who will use the
phone, will do that. I believe it is because of this, that I find it
natural that if presented with 2 buttons 'previous' and 'next' I will
expect 'previous' to on the left side.

That is similar to the web browsers I use: Left means back, right
means forward. If I click something wrong in the web browser and want
to undo that I press back (i.e. left) again.

So to me the following actions should be put on the left side:

left, undo, back, cancel, previous, no, reject-call

and these should be put on the right hand side:

right, apply, forward, OK, next, yes, answer-call, do-it


From this I also find the following gestures natural:


Drag-left = backspace
Drag-right = space

Backspace is similar to undo and if a gesture is needed for the
left-grouped buttons then this should be it. The right-grouped buttons
should have the opposite (similar to space).


== UI improvements ==

I like to drag things. In the calendar I cannot see the whole day. I
have to use the scrollbar (which BTW seems not to be proportionally
resized). I would like to simply click on the time and drag that up or
down (like when you drag around a PDF file in e.g. Acroread). And do
the same with the days in week view.

The feedback is bad. I was often in doubt whether I had clicked or
not. Using the hour glass icon more would help some but not solve
everything.


== Application: Screen rotate ==

This rotates to landscape and back. Neat. But again the feedback is too slow.

/Ole

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Re: firefox for mobiles

[Thomas Gstädtner]

@Florent: I already mentioned s60webkit last friday, so you can't say nobody
considers. :)
@Greg: I'm not sure here, but I guess s60webkit running on symbian is not a
big problem, because Symbian got POSIX-compliant libraries (by nokia?).
Maybe one the reasons for this was to get s60webkit working and maybe its
fully POSIX-compliant? [1]
Altough the gui-part of Nokia's browser isn't free, that shouldn't be a
problem, because that should be the component which maybe is the hardest
part in a port.
As OpenMoko uses GTK mostly a GTK-gui for webkit/s60webkit could be the best
choise.

[1] http://developer.symbian.com/wiki/display/oe/P.I.P.S.+Home
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Phase 1+ discount quantity

[Ben Wilson]

Hi everyone,

The details of the P1+ discount for people who buy a P1 aren't out yet 
but I wanted to put forward

this question anyway.

Do you think this discount will be locked in a 1:1 relationship?
ie, buy one P1 and get a discount on one P1+
Or do you think we will be able to buy say, two discounted P1+ phones even
if we only bought one P1 phone?

Ben.


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