Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
I think there is a place for both Openmoko and Qtopia. Useful features and possibly even entire applications can be cloned/ported back and forth between the platforms. Artwork, sounds, etc can easily be shared. There is even place for more options to discuss. E.g. Objective-C + GNUstep + X11. A very similar technology (called iPhone...) has created a lot of hype recently because it is said to provide the best UI experience in mobile phones. Can we please end this back and forth C vs. C++, Qt vs. Gtk, X11 vs no-X11, Openmoko vs Qtopia. I think most of us have seen plenty of these debates over the years and nothing constructive ever comes of them. But I agree that these dicsussion are not constructive - since there is no need for a community consensus. Everybody must decide him/ herself which platform best fits the needs. The community can only provide pros and cons. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko as a free platform -was Qtopia for Neo
On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 17:07 +0200, AVee wrote: I'll use commercial app if they are worth the money. But i really don't see how someone developing a non-free (both in speech as in beer) should get their toolkit for free. When you expect people to pay for *your* software you should not be suprised when you have to pay for a toolkit yourself. The SDK appears to cost 146 euro, that should be an affordable investment for any commercial developer. Heh, I always love it when this argument comes up in a discussion about GPL vs LGPL/BSD. If that is how you feel then there is no reason someone developing non-free software should get their kernel, their libc, their compiler, their build system, their graphics drivers, their gsm stack and so on either for free is it? In fact troll tech should probably pay 146 Euro per SDK to each of the underlying libraries they depend on for each commercial copy they sell of Qtopia or Qt according to your logic. I mean why should troll tech get a free ride if anyone else doesn't? Personally I have always felt that the important thing is a free platform and not necessarily that each and every application is 'free'. The goal of OpenMoko as I see it is to provide a free platform for anyone to use, whatever licensing they want to use. And the GUI toolkit is part of that. Which is why they currently use a LGPL licensed toolkit in the form of GTK+. Christian ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo Developer Version
Hello! Some more Phase 1 Neo's will be shiped end of september. Does somebody now, whether they will be GTA02 or GTA01? Thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Can we please end this back and forth C vs. C++, Qt vs. Gtk, X11 vs no-X11, Openmoko vs Qtopia. I think most of us have seen plenty of these debates over the years and nothing constructive ever comes of them. As far as I'm concerned, this should have ended last week. The original question asked was why continue with OpenMoko development when Qtopia is available, faster, more complete and stable?. It was debated and some pretty conclusive reasons came out (as posted last Thursday) 1) Redundency is good, if Qtopia fails for some reason, there's an alternative. 2) A greater number existing applications can be ported easily to an X based framework. There is also precedent in the Maemo project of where this has been very useful. I'd like to add a 3rd: Competition breeds innovation. :-) I guess a 4th reason that's come out now is some people just prefer the GTK+ api and maybe a 5th reason some people prefer the LGPL over the GPL. So there you go, there's the 5 reasons why OpenMoko development will continue.Agree or disagree those are the reasons. Perhaps these could be added to the wiki to avoid future debates running over the same ground? Cheers, Tom PS: The faster, more complete and stable bit refers to the _current_ state of OpenMoko and not to what OpenMoko will obviously become. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 8:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As far as I'm concerned, this should have ended last week. The original question asked was why continue with OpenMoko development when Qtopia is available, faster, more complete and stable?. It was debated and some pretty conclusive reasons came out (as posted last Thursday) 1) Redundency is good, if Qtopia fails for some reason, there's an alternative. 2) A greater number existing applications can be ported easily to an X based framework. There is also precedent in the Maemo project of where this has been very useful. I'd like to add a 3rd: Competition breeds innovation. :-) I guess a 4th reason that's come out now is some people just prefer the GTK+ api and maybe a 5th reason some people prefer the LGPL over the GPL. So there you go, there's the 5 reasons why OpenMoko development will continue.Agree or disagree those are the reasons. Perhaps these could be added to the wiki to avoid future debates running over the same ground? Cheers, Tom PS: The faster, more complete and stable bit refers to the _current_ state of OpenMoko and not to what OpenMoko will obviously become. I guess my only comment is that while I don't really care which interface people use on their phones, it seems like the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. In general, I think that all of that should be possible regardless of which interface you use to view/interact with the phone. Gives a little more isolation of the interface from the implementation of where everything is, and it gives people the option to switch at any time without fear that they need to copy / backup-restore their data when switching. Especially with the relevation about being able to run them both at the same time. (Qt has x11 libraries/bindings right?) So you could write qt apps which interact with GTK+ apps through the common data infrastructure. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Unified PIM
I guess my only comment is that while I don't really care which interface people use on their phones, it seems like the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. Agreed, but I'd take it one step further. Given the neo has an internet connection, why can't PIM data be stored on a web server and just cached locally. Couldn't you then integrate that into desktop PIM applications too? Ok, so this isn't a new idea. :-) Evolution Data Server supports integration to groupware backends, but from what I've seen, these are enterprise-class groupware servers designed for corporations. I can't seem to find anything designed for the consumer, an internet-accessible groupware server I can sign up to and store my contacts in a single place. The problem is not local - I'd be surprised if Embedded EDS couldn't be adapted to store it's data on a server and just use a cached dataset locally. The problem is that this requires some server infrastructure and so far I've yet to find something which will do it. Has anyone else seen this done? Cheers, Tom ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unified PIM
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:49:43 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess my only comment is that while I don't really care which interface people use on their phones, it seems like the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. Agreed, but I'd take it one step further. Given the neo has an internet connection, why can't PIM data be stored on a web server and just cached locally. Couldn't you then integrate that into desktop PIM applications too? I would prefer to not have a network dependency on PIM data. It might be a nice extra feature, but I would like to see the core data held on the phone supported by the different front-ends. I may want to switch frontends without resyncing all my data. It seems like LiPS might be a good start for this shared architecture. In the event of a non-compliant implementation, perhaps wrapper/abstraction scripts could be built to make it transparent to the end user? Regards, j. Ok, so this isn't a new idea. :-) Evolution Data Server supports integration to groupware backends, but from what I've seen, these are enterprise-class groupware servers designed for corporations. I can't seem to find anything designed for the consumer, an internet-accessible groupware server I can sign up to and store my contacts in a single place. The problem is not local - I'd be surprised if Embedded EDS couldn't be adapted to store it's data on a server and just use a cached dataset locally. The problem is that this requires some server infrastructure and so far I've yet to find something which will do it. Has anyone else seen this done? Cheers, Tom ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Tim Newsom wrote: I guess my only comment is that while I don't really care which interface people use on their phones, it seems like the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. In general, I think that all of that should be possible regardless of which interface you use to view/interact with the phone. Gives a little more isolation of the interface from the implementation of where everything is, and it gives people the option to switch at any time without fear that they need to copy / backup-restore their data when switching. Especially with the relevation about being able to run them both at the same time. (Qt has x11 libraries/bindings right?) So you could write qt apps which interact with GTK+ apps through the common data infrastructure. --Tim I 100% agree and that is just about the only constructive thing I've heard said on this (somewhat) pointless thread. I don't know the answer to what he is asking, so if someone does, please speak. At least then we might actually make some type of progress and meaningful discussion. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Tim Newsom wrote: the data interfaces should be the same... If I open up qtopia phone edition and look at my contacts or maybe even edit them and then close it down and open up my OM interface and look at them, they should be the same. All edit are visible.. No double entry. I don't know the answer to what he is asking, so if someone does, please speak. It was asked maybe a month about having some sort of 'standard' for data storage, although I'm not sure that any of us knew about the Qtopia port at that time. I think it would be good to revisit that thread and discuss data storage, because I agree as well -- a standard way of storing data so it's 100% accessible and identical on multiple platforms will make it so much more enticing. Like someone else said about OSS in general, there are so many choices, no one way is the right (only) way, but some will prefer one method over another. As an example, I use my /home/ partition in multiple versions of Linux on my workstation, so having a /.thunderbird/ folder be 100% accessible no matter which OS I'm booted into is vital -- I need to have the same Email access in every OS I boot into while I work. Someone else had mentioned sync'ing the Neo data with some online service so the data would be available everywhere, which isn't a bad idea either, but synchronization issues come into play when you have a locally-cached copy on the phone, detecting deltas, etc. Just my $0.02. -id ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Developer Version
Pretty sure they are GTA01 as we haven't heard anything about GTA02 being finalized and it isn't planned before October anyway. Ortwin On 9/26/07, Andreas Hennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello! Some more Phase 1 Neo's will be shiped end of september. Does somebody now, whether they will be GTA02 or GTA01? Thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Developer Version
I hope they don't send them out a few days before releasing GTA02. I would feel screwed... On Wednesday 26 September 2007 23:32:49 Ortwin Regel wrote: Pretty sure they are GTA01 as we haven't heard anything about GTA02 being finalized and it isn't planned before October anyway. Ortwin On 9/26/07, Andreas Hennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello! Some more Phase 1 Neo's will be shiped end of september. Does somebody now, whether they will be GTA02 or GTA01? Thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia coming for Neo1973
Hi Sharing contacts, dates, etc is complicated enough that you should push for openmoko and qtopia to support a standards-based sync with an external server. Then it becomes a more generic problem of interoperability instead of an obscure feature request. Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Developer Version
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 11:54:54PM +0200, thus spake Daniel Spies: I hope they don't send them out a few days before releasing GTA02. I would feel screwed... If you have already placed an order, then they'll be shipping you a GTA01 and not GTA02, whenever they end up sending it. GTA02 will cost more, for one thing. Currently, the Neo1973 wiki page suggests a December release for GTA02 (see the section on Phase 2): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 Marco ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Developer Version
hello, after a try on the shop on openmoko.com, there is an error after the first step... But the site will be rewrite so , we must waiting for the GTA02 2007/9/26, Daniel Spies [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I hope they don't send them out a few days before releasing GTA02. I would feel screwed... On Wednesday 26 September 2007 23:32:49 Ortwin Regel wrote: Pretty sure they are GTA01 as we haven't heard anything about GTA02 being finalized and it isn't planned before October anyway. Ortwin On 9/26/07, Andreas Hennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello! Some more Phase 1 Neo's will be shiped end of september. Does somebody now, whether they will be GTA02 or GTA01? Thanks ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Developer Version
We already know that there will be P0, P1, and P2 phases for GTA02, just like there was for GTA01 (see the wiki for the definition of these terms if you don't know them). The phones people are ordering now are GTA01 P1 models. We also have not heard any reports of P0 developers getting P0 GTA02 units yet - and believe me when that happens you will know about it, just like you saw emails, blogs, videos, etc from developers receiving P0 GTA01 units. In fact, we do know that roh (an openmoko employee) only got his pre-pre-pre-pre-development unit the other day, and we do know that that is not the final hardware version, and we should all realise that changing a hardware production line takes months, not days. Make no mistake about it - there is absolutely zero chance of anyone buying a GTA02 in October. Last unofficial word from Mickey was December (in his last conference presentation), and I expect that is for the P0 or P1 release, not the P2 general market works-like-joe-user-expects-a-phone-to-work release. -- Rod (no inside information, I do not work for OpenMoko) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
still having trouble getting Neo to boot Qtopia from SD
So to recap what I've tried, that doesn't work to get Qtopia on my SD card and boot from SD: I went to http://www.qtopia.net/modules/devices/openmoko.php and downloaded the three files under Qtopia for the Neo1973 Downloads, and unpacked them onto a 2GB microSD card, formatted as ext3: # mount /dev/sdc1 /media/sdcard # tar -C /media/sdcard -zxvf \ /path/to/qtopia/ficgta01-qtopia-developer-rootfs.tgz # tar -C /media/sdcard -zxvf \ /path/to/qtopia/arm920t-eabi-ficgta01-toolchain.tgz # tar -C /media/sdcard/boot/ -xzvf \ /path/to/qtopia/qtopia-4.3.0-preview-neo-flash.tgz ... the last step of course placed the uImage file and the rootfs file into the SD card's /boot/ folder (there's no documentation anywhere that describes where else to place these, so I was guessing as I went) # cd /media/sdcard/boot # ln -s uImage-2.6.21.6-moko11-r2-fic-gta01.bin uImage This, of course symlinks the uImage file since the uboot menu only needs a file called uImage Then I ejected the SD card from my Linux box, put the SD card into my Neo, powered up to the uboot menu, selected 'Boot from SD', and I get the kernel panic I posted earlier. (relisted below) So obviously having uImage-2.6.21.6-moko11-r2-fic-gta01.bin and qtopia-rootfs.2-09180703.jffs2 in the /boot/ folder isn't right, so I put the SD card back into my Linux box and moved the files up a level so they would be in the 'root' folder of the file system: # mount /dev/sdc1 /media/sdcard # cd /media/sdcard/boot # mv uImage-2.6.21.6-moko11-r2-fic-gta01.bin ../ # mv qtopia-rootfs.2-09180703.jffs2 ../ # rm uImage # ln -s ../uImage-2.6.21.6-moko11-r2-fic-gta01.bin uImage # sync ; cd ; eject /dev/sdc1 That didn't work either... same kernel panic: (last 5 lines included here) Waiting 5sec before mounting root device... Root-NFS: No NFS server available, giving up. NFS: Unable to mount root fs via NFS, trying floppy. NFS: Cannot open root device mmcblk0p1 or unknown-block(0,2) Please append a correct root= boot option Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,2) So Piotr, could you maybe please post your bash_history for us to see what exactly you did, to get this going? I'd be happy to edit the wiki page for Qtopia on the Neo for booting from SD if I can just get this going -- but experimentation is just frustrating when others obviously have already tried Qtopia on the Neo. Thanks, Ian ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
