Re: Openmoko wallpaper

[Flyin_bbb8]

no the picture is in png format 'n high res.and 1639 KB, should be a JPG
with ok quality then the size will be much more less then maybe we can put
it on the wiki

On Jan 11, 2008 1:59 AM, clare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi, THe reduced download time pic is very nice, but I believe if
> put on the wiki would get well justified complaints due to download time
> (36 seconds on my ADSL)
> when the picture is not in any way relevant to what wiki is for.
> I hate to be so negative, but I have the good of the wiki at heart here.
> I still think as wallpaper, i.e. to be downloaded as a choice, it would be
> welcomed.
>
> regards,
> clare
>
>
> On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Marcel wrote:
>
> > Here's the new version. The objects on the right have been cut out and
> there
> > is a smaller version for low bandwith and/or the wiki. But I didn't
> blacken
> > the lighted window because it turned out to be quite hard to do, it
> always
> > looks horrible after I put some dark color on it. Maybe someone else is
> more
> > gifted? :)
> >
> > I'm also going to put the picture versions on my blog/website this
> evening so
> > that its not nessecary to provide new urls each time a change is made.
> >
> > original with layers:
> > http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3.xcf.gz
> > big version (6mb, 1447x1085):
> > http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3.png
> > compressed version (1.6mb, 1280x960):
> > http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3_small.png
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[Lon Lentz]

  Michael,

  Are you aware of any online sites that might have done any video of this?


On Jan 10, 2008 4:20 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> A brief status report from OpenMoko:
>
> Consumer Electronics Show, Las Vegas
> 
>
> We've just returned from CES where we showed the Neo FreeRunner (GTA02).
> Although this was still a prototype it performed fairly well. The UI we
> had installed was the same as the most recent for GTA01. Of course most
> of the press was interested in this as a consumer device. Nonetheless,
> interest was very high. A number of Linux and Open Source enthusiasts
> came by, and of course they were thrilled. Most of them already knew
> about this project but wanted to see the GTA02 and to hold it in their
> hands. We were also visited by some Linux luminaries (Doc Searls,
> Maddog), which is always very thrilling.
>
>
>
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Re: Neo security: running everything as root, and lacking a root password (was: Re: root)

[Christopher White]

Regarding security and mobile phones..

I recently read an interesting interview with Mikko Hypponen, chief
research officer of F-Secure in IIEE Security and Privacy (Nov/Dec 07).

He touched on the topic of security and mobile phones, even mentioned
that he has received four worms on his mobile phone (they didn't infect,
as he had antivirus protection), all variations of the Cabor or the
CodeWarrior worms.  One was beamed to his phone from a passing car,
likely from an infected phone.  

The most interesting point he makes is that while infecting computers
can indirectly be costly (identity theft, time spent, loss of critical
data, etc.), infecting mobile phones can be *directly* costly.  This is
due to the built in billing system in mobile phones.  

I would imagine lack of a serious attention to security might be a
barrier to wider scale deployment, particularly in a business
environment.  As the device will potentially carry highly sensitive data
such as contacts, email, even documents, security will be key.

...cj

On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 15:53 -0800, Michael Shiloh wrote:
> Hi Brandon,
> 
> (I encourage everyone to use meaningful subject lines)
> 
> I suspect the real reason was that it was the easiest and quickest thing 
> to do at the time, and allowed the developers to focus on more pressing 
> issues, like getting the rest of the system working.
> 
> I'm sure this will change in the future to a more secure system, and I 
> welcome all the ideas that have been suggested of what that might look 
> like. I'm pretty sure there is a wiki page where that's been started 
> already. If not, anyone is welcome to create one and to post these ideas 
> there.
> 
> Michael
> 
> Brandon Kruse wrote:
> > I cannot speak for them, but look at your market place.
> > 
> > Not secure servers but mobile telephony.
> > 
> > The phone is as secure as you make it, and they have faith in the 
> > programs that are on there.
> > 
> > Heck you could even make a security package to lock it down a little for 
> > those who want something extra.
> > 
> > Anyone else?
> > 
> > 
> > Brandon
> > 
> > On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> So why did OpenMoko developers decided to run everything as root?
> >>
> >> 2008/1/11, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>> Good luck easily hacking over a GPRS connection. Make your password
> >>> longer than 6 characters, a ban after retry attempts, take it off port
> >>> 22 and that will save 95% of attacks from script kiddies. (everything
> >>> I listed is controllable on sshd_config, I believe)
> >>>
> >>> Just imho it helps, opinion and experience :)
> >>>
> >>> But overall, I agree, but your privileges are only as safe as your
> >>> software.
> >>> (eg when you run a socket based process as root, you trust it.)
> >>>
> >>> However, you make a good point :)
> >>>
> >>> Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
> >>> as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> Brandon
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
>  But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
>  wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a great
>  power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
>  better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask for
>  password at first run time?
> 
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
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Re: root

[Nick Guenther]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:58 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are user applications and GUI run as root? If yes, is it safe? What is
> the root password in OpenMoko, by the way?
>

This has been noted, but it's not a top priority to fix it:
http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1074
http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=558
mickey> Reflagging as enhancement. I agree it's a major potential
problem, but not a bug.

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Neo security: running everything as root, and lacking a root password (was: Re: root)

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Brandon,

(I encourage everyone to use meaningful subject lines)

I suspect the real reason was that it was the easiest and quickest thing 
to do at the time, and allowed the developers to focus on more pressing 
issues, like getting the rest of the system working.


I'm sure this will change in the future to a more secure system, and I 
welcome all the ideas that have been suggested of what that might look 
like. I'm pretty sure there is a wiki page where that's been started 
already. If not, anyone is welcome to create one and to post these ideas 
there.


Michael

Brandon Kruse wrote:

I cannot speak for them, but look at your market place.

Not secure servers but mobile telephony.

The phone is as secure as you make it, and they have faith in the 
programs that are on there.


Heck you could even make a security package to lock it down a little for 
those who want something extra.


Anyone else?


Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


So why did OpenMoko developers decided to run everything as root?

2008/1/11, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Good luck easily hacking over a GPRS connection. Make your password
longer than 6 characters, a ban after retry attempts, take it off port
22 and that will save 95% of attacks from script kiddies. (everything
I listed is controllable on sshd_config, I believe)

Just imho it helps, opinion and experience :)

But overall, I agree, but your privileges are only as safe as your
software.
(eg when you run a socket based process as root, you trust it.)

However, you make a good point :)

Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.


Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a great
power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask for
password at first run time?

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Re: community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Gilbert,

It is our intention to produce two versions (850MHz and 900MHz) of the 
Neo FreeRunner. I have been assured by various people within the company 
that the issue has been studied and they are highly confident that they 
can deliver this.


Michael



Gilbert Hartmann wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michael Shiloh wrote:

Neo FreeRunner press release and the CPU speed
--

The Neo FreeRunner press release that went out last week indicated a
500MHz CPU which, as many of you pointed out, is in conflict with the
400MHz stated on the wiki. I researched this among the experts and I
think I have gotten to the bottom of it:



There were also mentions of separate 850MHz and 900MHz versions of the phone in
the Press Release. Is that a definite for release? or even a definite at all 
yet?

- --Bert
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHhpucVfxFjPpfJ3oRAqm3AJ97YFMeaR8CUff+96nbACt89lOLywCfZghH
ZaMdeXMFbTBo44fOqh4ntjo=
=NLpJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: root

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

Friday 11 January 2008 skrev Brandon Kruse:
> Great, when can I expect your patch?

  Well, i can tell you that much that any patch from my hand would be shunned 
like a demon - while i do code, i have only done so using PHP, C# and C... In 
that order of preference (yes, yes, i know, PHP is made of evil and so on).
  On top of that - i simply thought i would make a note of it, a sort of 
clarification :) Not a -real- suggestion, as there are a whole bunch of 
things that would need to be taken into consideration (for example, if 
kapabilities was implemented all the way like it is in Ark Linux, the users 
would be disabled for login... which sort of defeats the purpose of having 
the ssh server running on the thing).

> Btw, same conceptually, I like to call that particular rambling an
> "idea"

  Yeah, i guess it sort of was :) From my hand, however, it is a not exactly 
well formed idea ;) i try and make actual ideas i give out have more, well... 
substance, shall we say :) i am really a more casual observer here (i have 
FAR too much on my plate as it is), but thought i would make a short notice 
of something that seemed appropriate :)

> 
> Brandon
>
> On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thursday 10 January 2008 skrev Brandon Kruse:
> >> Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
> >> as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.
> >
> >  Not entirely... KDE uses kdesu or kdesudo (depending on
> > distribution), and
> > even Kubuntu uses a Qt/KDE based dialog, not a gtk based one :) Some
> > distributions also use a more granular system of permissions called
> > kapabilities[1], developed for Ark Linux, which gives a specific
> > user rights
> > to use very specific tools. This particular system rubs me very much
> > the
> > right way.
> >
> > [1] http://wiki.arklinux.org/Ark_Security_System
> >
> > --
> > ..Dan // Leinir..
> > http://www.leinir.dk/
> >
> >  Co-
> >existence
> >  or no
> >existence
> >
> >  - Piet Hein
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
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http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

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Re: community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Ian,


ian douglas wrote:
Although it would be nice to take advantage of this faster processor, 3 

 > problems make this impractical

Michael,

If I'm reading your message correctly, the GTA02 will indeed have a 
500MHz processor, but will not be running at 500MHz because of the three 
problems you outlined, is that correct?


That is correct. We are installing a CPU that is rated for a maximum 
speed of 500MHz, but clocking it at 400MHz.


This is fairly common in the hardware world as availability of certain 
chips changes.


For example, a manufacturer might find they can make the faster chips 
for the same price as the slower, and it costs them more to stock the 
two speeds, so they produce only the faster.


Another reason might be that the volume of sales of the 400MHz part was 
so low that it wasn't worth manufacturing.





Does this mean you will be slowing the CPU to 400MHz, or some other 
speed, or will you only know the answer once more testing has been done?


I'm not sure the expression "slowing the cpu" is accurate. The CPU is 
rated for a maximum clock frequency of 500MHz, but it can be used at 
other speeds as well.


If you are asking whether we intend to increase the clock speed at a 
later time, the answer is it's possible, but it's not planned. Since the 
rest of the circuit is designed for 400MHz it would take some serious 
analysis and testing to convince ourselves that it works reliably at 500MHz.


A big part of hardware design consists of making sure that all signals, 
taking into account worst-case propagation delays and rise and fall 
times, will arrive at their destinations early enough to meet the setup 
times of the destination. This analysis is done at the intended CPU 
clocking frequency, which in our case was 400MHz. There is no 
expectation that these conditions will be met when the CPU is clocked at 
500MHz - rather, every single signal in the circuit must be analyzed at 
this higher frequency.


This is a tremendous amount of work, and is properly prioritized below 
getting GTA02 into manufacturing.





Your description of problem 2 makes it sound like memory access will be 
slower, at 83MHz, if running the CPU at full speed because of the memory 
bus speed, instead of the anticipated 100MHz, is that correct? 


I can't answer for sure because I didn't work this out myself - rather I 
asked someone else. I can only presume that dividing by 5 was not an 
option. I'll find out.


This frequency pre-scaler is not part of our circuitry; rather, it's 
built-in to the system-on-a-chip (SoC). Typically, those system provide 
pre-scalers, and typically those pre-scalers provide a limited range of 
fixed numbers for dividing the incoming frequency. So just because "4" 
and "6" were available divisors does not indicate that "5" is available 
as well.



Does 
anyone there anticipate that this 17% decrease in memory access speed 
will be noticeable to the end user? What's the memory access speed on 
the GTA01?


There is no decrease in memory speed - the system was designed to run 
with a CPU clock of 400MHz, and the memory at 100MHz, and that's what it 
will do.






Thanks,
Ian



Thanks,
Michael

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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Jeremiah Flerchinger]

I would assume the difference to be fiscal vs calendar year.  My 
workplace uses Oct 1st to the start of their fiscal year, with project 
funding and reseting of vacation time being based around this.  For 
other things we refer to particular quarters of the calendar year.


I think expressing things as quarters is acceptable and obvious as long 
as it was stated as "2nd quarter - calendar year" or something similar.  
I don't care whether months or quarters are used, but think either would 
be valid to use as the core team sees fit.


-J


Heilpern, Mark wrote:

The difference between fiscal year and calendar year, I suppose?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:09 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

At my employer, 1st quarter starts October 1st.  See what I mean about
no standard?

-Steven

On Jan 10, 2008 10:48 AM, Sébastien Lorquet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

For me, one year is 12 months so one quarter is 3 months, and then:
1st day of 1st quarter = january 1
1st day of 2nd quarter = april 1
and so on...

Don't tell us you will release gta02 for the second quarter of 2008 :)

Sebastien

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Re: root

[Brandon Kruse]

Great, when can I expect your patch?

Btw, same conceptually, I like to call that particular rambling an  
"idea"



Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Thursday 10 January 2008 skrev Brandon Kruse:

Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.


 Not entirely... KDE uses kdesu or kdesudo (depending on  
distribution), and

even Kubuntu uses a Qt/KDE based dialog, not a gtk based one :) Some
distributions also use a more granular system of permissions called
kapabilities[1], developed for Ark Linux, which gives a specific  
user rights
to use very specific tools. This particular system rubs me very much  
the

right way.

[1] http://wiki.arklinux.org/Ark_Security_System

--
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

 Co-
   existence
 or no
   existence

 - Piet Hein

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Re: Openmoko wallpaper

[clare]

Hi, THe reduced download time pic is very nice, but I believe if
put on the wiki would get well justified complaints due to download time
(36 seconds on my ADSL)
when the picture is not in any way relevant to what wiki is for.
I hate to be so negative, but I have the good of the wiki at heart here.
I still think as wallpaper, i.e. to be downloaded as a choice, it would be 
welcomed.


regards,
clare


On Wed, 9 Jan 2008, Marcel wrote:


Here's the new version. The objects on the right have been cut out and there
is a smaller version for low bandwith and/or the wiki. But I didn't blacken
the lighted window because it turned out to be quite hard to do, it always
looks horrible after I put some dark color on it. Maybe someone else is more
gifted? :)

I'm also going to put the picture versions on my blog/website this evening so
that its not nessecary to provide new urls each time a change is made.

original with layers:
http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3.xcf.gz
big version (6mb, 1447x1085):
http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3.png
compressed version (1.6mb, 1280x960):
http://tanuva.de/files/mokocars_at_night_v3_small.png

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Re: root

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

Thursday 10 January 2008 skrev Brandon Kruse:
> Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
> as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.

  Not entirely... KDE uses kdesu or kdesudo (depending on distribution), and 
even Kubuntu uses a Qt/KDE based dialog, not a gtk based one :) Some 
distributions also use a more granular system of permissions called 
kapabilities[1], developed for Ark Linux, which gives a specific user rights 
to use very specific tools. This particular system rubs me very much the 
right way.

[1] http://wiki.arklinux.org/Ark_Security_System

-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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Re: root

[Brandon Kruse]

I cannot speak for them, but look at your market place.

Not secure servers but mobile telephony.

The phone is as secure as you make it, and they have faith in the  
programs that are on there.


Heck you could even make a security package to lock it down a little  
for those who want something extra.


Anyone else?


Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


So why did OpenMoko developers decided to run everything as root?

2008/1/11, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Good luck easily hacking over a GPRS connection. Make your password
longer than 6 characters, a ban after retry attempts, take it off  
port

22 and that will save 95% of attacks from script kiddies. (everything
I listed is controllable on sshd_config, I believe)

Just imho it helps, opinion and experience :)

But overall, I agree, but your privileges are only as safe as your
software.
(eg when you run a socket based process as root, you trust it.)

However, you make a good point :)

Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.


Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a  
great

power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask  
for

password at first run time?

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Re: community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[Gilbert Hartmann]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Michael Shiloh wrote:
> Neo FreeRunner press release and the CPU speed
> --
> 
> The Neo FreeRunner press release that went out last week indicated a
> 500MHz CPU which, as many of you pointed out, is in conflict with the
> 400MHz stated on the wiki. I researched this among the experts and I
> think I have gotten to the bottom of it:
> 

There were also mentions of separate 850MHz and 900MHz versions of the phone in
the Press Release. Is that a definite for release? or even a definite at all 
yet?

- --Bert
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Re: root

[Denis]

So why did OpenMoko developers decided to run everything as root?

2008/1/11, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Good luck easily hacking over a GPRS connection. Make your password
> longer than 6 characters, a ban after retry attempts, take it off port
> 22 and that will save 95% of attacks from script kiddies. (everything
> I listed is controllable on sshd_config, I believe)
>
> Just imho it helps, opinion and experience :)
>
> But overall, I agree, but your privileges are only as safe as your
> software.
> (eg when you run a socket based process as root, you trust it.)
>
> However, you make a good point :)
>
> Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login
> as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.
>
> 
> Brandon
>
> On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
> > wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a great
> > power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
> > better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask for
> > password at first run time?
> >
> > ___
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 3:02 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2008 2:40 PM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 
> > 5h lifetime!
>
> It's supposed to be a 1200mAH battery, so 1200/5 is 240mA, to get a 5
> hour lifetime, right?

I just realized you meant 5 days.  10mA seems about right then in the
ideal case (battery is fully charged and really delivers 1200 mAH).

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:40 PM, Tim Niemeyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 5h 
> lifetime!

It's supposed to be a 1200mAH battery, so 1200/5 is 240mA, to get a 5
hour lifetime, right?

> When i was GPS logging for OSM (Navit with map input from it's own
> output, was very nice), neo runs easily several hours!

That's more like it.  For me something is definitely wrong then.

> Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.

What is your method of measuring the current?  I was thinking of
cutting a strip of thin, double-sided PC board material and sticking
it between one battery contact and the corresponding phone contact,
then connect a current meter between the two planes of that strip.

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Jan 10, 2008 2:31 PM, Lon Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   You are burning through a fully charged battery in 20 min running GPS?

Yeah.  I wonder if the battery has deteriorated somehow (from the
phone running and being plugged in to USB for days or weeks at a time,
and being overcharged? but the power management chip should not
overcharge it, right?), or maybe it is not being fully charged.  I
consider it fully charged when it has been running, and plugged in to
USB, overnight.  I'm also wondering if my hub may be limiting it to
less than 500 mA though.  I need to measure the currents... both
battery current and USB current, in various states.

Speaking of which, where can we get more batteries?  If it has not
deteriorated yet, it certainly will eventually.  The Nokia ones are
not quite compatible enough, are they?

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Re: root

[Brandon Kruse]

Good luck easily hacking over a GPRS connection. Make your password  
longer than 6 characters, a ban after retry attempts, take it off port  
22 and that will save 95% of attacks from script kiddies. (everything  
I listed is controllable on sshd_config, I believe)


Just imho it helps, opinion and experience :)

But overall, I agree, but your privileges are only as safe as your  
software.

(eg when you run a socket based process as root, you trust it.)

However, you make a good point :)

Kde and gnome take that precaution with gtk based Sudo when you login  
as a normal user (at least in debian/ubuntu) and I like that method.



Brandon

On Jan 10, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a great
power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask for
password at first run time?

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Re: community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[ian douglas]

Although it would be nice to take advantage of this faster processor, 3 

> problems make this impractical

Michael,

If I'm reading your message correctly, the GTA02 will indeed have a 
500MHz processor, but will not be running at 500MHz because of the three 
problems you outlined, is that correct?


Does this mean you will be slowing the CPU to 400MHz, or some other 
speed, or will you only know the answer once more testing has been done?


Your description of problem 2 makes it sound like memory access will be 
slower, at 83MHz, if running the CPU at full speed because of the memory 
bus speed, instead of the anticipated 100MHz, is that correct? Does 
anyone there anticipate that this 17% decrease in memory access speed 
will be noticeable to the end user? What's the memory access speed on 
the GTA01?


Thanks,
Ian




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Re: root

[Denis]

But as far as I understand it's not secure, esp. for a device with
wi-fi, bluetooth, gprs and running ssh daemon! Linux gives us a great
power of user privilegies management but we waste it. Woldn't it be
better to run everything as an unprivileged user, or at least ask for
password at first run time?

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Shawn,

* Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 14:19]:
> Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
> unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
> than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
> points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
> without being connected - just sitting there idle.  And as others have
> observed, if it is in more of a standby state, you still get mere
> hours at best, right?  5 days seems wildly optimistic to me, but if
> it's achieved it would be better than the average "smart" phone (all
> OS's included).
with actual battery you need to minimize the power consumption to 10mA for 5h 
lifetime!

When i was GPS logging for OSM (Navit with map input from it's own
output, was very nice), neo runs easily several hours!

Today, i played a bit with power measurement and standby.
It was very surprising, and the actual power was very different from time
to time. Sometimes neo booted and did draw about 400mA in idle. Sometimes only
280mA.
In Standby mode it was exacly the same, but most the time it tooks
~80-95mA. Sometimes only 65mA!
One time the neo did draw only about 20mA! Don't know what was
different: booted -> standby -> 20mA! I think this 20mA was drawn by the
GSM.

> 
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Lon Lentz]

  You are burning through a fully charged battery in 20 min running GPS?

On Jan 10, 2008 4:19 PM, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
> unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
> than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
> points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
>
>
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community update, Thursday, January 10, 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

Hello,

A brief status report from OpenMoko:

Consumer Electronics Show, Las Vegas


We've just returned from CES where we showed the Neo FreeRunner (GTA02). 
Although this was still a prototype it performed fairly well. The UI we 
had installed was the same as the most recent for GTA01. Of course most 
of the press was interested in this as a consumer device. Nonetheless, 
interest was very high. A number of Linux and Open Source enthusiasts 
came by, and of course they were thrilled. Most of them already knew 
about this project but wanted to see the GTA02 and to hold it in their 
hands. We were also visited by some Linux luminaries (Doc Searls, 
Maddog), which is always very thrilling.



GTA02 progress
--

We're still testing the hardware and gathering up little issues before 
determining whether we need to create another version of the board. We 
still expect to start shipping Neo FreeRunner sometime in the next few 
months. As always, we can't be more specific, because we're not sure.



Neo FreeRunner press release and the CPU speed
--

The Neo FreeRunner press release that went out last week indicated a 
500MHz CPU which, as many of you pointed out, is in conflict with the 
400MHz stated on the wiki. I researched this among the experts and I 
think I have gotten to the bottom of it:


Background: The GTA02 hardware was designed for a 400MHz processor. The 
particular combination of CPU speed, FLASH size and RAM size that we 
wanted became unavailable, so a 500MHz device was substituted.


Although it would be nice to take advantage of this faster processor, 3 
problems make this impractical:


1) The GTA02 hardware was designed for 400MHz, and running at the higher 
speed may uncover any manner of problems, e.g. timing or drawing too 
much current. It might be fine, but needs to be tested and analyzed 
thoroughly.


2) At a CPU clock of 500MHz, we have to use a slower memory bus clock 
than we would if the CPU were clocked at 400MHz. The memory bus is 
clocked at a fraction of the CPU clock. A limited number of ratios are 
selectable. At 400 MHz, we could use 400/4 = 100MHz, but 500/4 = 125MHz 
is too fast for the memory, so we have to go to the next larger divider, 
which is 500/6 = 83MHz.


3) Power consumption does not rise linearly with CPU speed, and at 
500MHz is extremely high, resulting in extremely short battery life.



That's all for now. As always, I welcome your feedback, questions, 
comments, and concerns.


Michael


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Shawn Rutledge]

Well what's the best uptime on battery that has been seen so far, with
unmodified phones and with an existing software image?  I see less
than 20 minutes when I'm trying to just use it as a GPS (logging track
points).  GSM talk time ought to even be longer than that, but this is
without being connected - just sitting there idle.  And as others have
observed, if it is in more of a standby state, you still get mere
hours at best, right?  5 days seems wildly optimistic to me, but if
it's achieved it would be better than the average "smart" phone (all
OS's included).

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Re: WiFi chip squeezes 802.11n into MicroSD cards

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 10.01.2008 um 21:29 schrieb Michael Shiloh:

Yeah, cool. Can you toss this up on the wiki in the appropriate  
section?


If someone can help me to tell what "the appropriate section" is...


Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

Something interesting - could be good to see in GTA03:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8925554018.html
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Joseph,

If we knew the date with 100% certainty I would certainly share it with you.

As we have seen there is no standard meaning to the word "quarter" either.

I'll go back to months. That's still somewhat Western-centric but 
perhaps sufficiently accepted that it should not cause trouble.


Michael

Joseph Reeves wrote:

Talk of quarters might be more helpful (and standard within the
business world), but a date would be even better!

Joseph (waiting with anticipation)



On 10/01/2008, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It's an excellent description because they don't want to be specific!
Push it more and I could see them just saying "It'll be out in 2008".

-Steven

On Jan 9, 2008 6:51 PM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jeff Bailes wrote:

FreeRunner is due for release at the end of Spring, but which Spring
is this? East Asia? US? Europe?

  I have to say, spring is a bad description of when FreeRunner will be
released, though from my knowledge East Asia, the US and Europe all have spring
at the same time +- 24 hours.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be spring in the
southern hemisphere since that's still ten and a half months away.

Amen.  Using seasons for describing milestones (a common US behaviour)
or even worse using holidays (e.g. we'll release that by Thanksgiving),
is always the *wrong* thing to do.

-- Rod (who is south of the equator, and also on a half-hour timezone)


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Re: root

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hallo Denis,

* Denis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 22:58]:
> Are user applications and GUI run as root?
yes

> What is the root password in OpenMoko, by the way?
"" without quotes, as long as you didn't changed it! ;-)


Tim Niemeyer


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Re: WiFi chip squeezes 802.11n into MicroSD cards

[Michael Shiloh]

Yeah, cool. Can you toss this up on the wiki in the appropriate section?

Michael

Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

Something interesting - could be good to see in GTA03:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8925554018.html

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root

[Denis]

Are user applications and GUI run as root? If yes, is it safe? What is
the root password in OpenMoko, by the way?

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RE: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Heilpern, Mark]

The difference between fiscal year and calendar year, I suppose?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 1:09 PM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

At my employer, 1st quarter starts October 1st.  See what I mean about
no standard?

-Steven

On Jan 10, 2008 10:48 AM, Sébastien Lorquet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For me, one year is 12 months so one quarter is 3 months, and then:
> 1st day of 1st quarter = january 1
> 1st day of 2nd quarter = april 1
> and so on...
>
> Don't tell us you will release gta02 for the second quarter of 2008 :)
>
> Sebastien
>
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Steven **]

At my employer, 1st quarter starts October 1st.  See what I mean about
no standard?

-Steven

On Jan 10, 2008 10:48 AM, Sébastien Lorquet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For me, one year is 12 months so one quarter is 3 months, and then:
> 1st day of 1st quarter = january 1
> 1st day of 2nd quarter = april 1
> and so on...
>
> Don't tell us you will release gta02 for the second quarter of 2008 :)
>
> Sebastien
>
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Michael Shiloh]

We agree.

OpenMoko does not want to reflect any bias towards or against anyone.

We thought we were doing a pretty good job. We carefully avoid using 
USA- or Christian-centric words like "Christmas" and "Thanksgiving", but 
 our use of the word "spring" slipped right by.


Fortunately we have a watchful community to catch our mistakes as 
quickly as possible! Please continue to let me know if we make such 
mistakes in the future.


We thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Michael

Rod Whitby wrote:

Jeff Bailes wrote:

FreeRunner is due for release at the end of Spring, but which Spring
is this? East Asia? US? Europe?

I have to say, spring is a bad description of when FreeRunner will be
released, though from my knowledge East Asia, the US and Europe all have spring
at the same time +- 24 hours.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be spring in the
southern hemisphere since that's still ten and a half months away.


Amen.  Using seasons for describing milestones (a common US behaviour)
or even worse using holidays (e.g. we'll release that by Thanksgiving),
is always the *wrong* thing to do.

-- Rod (who is south of the equator, and also on a half-hour timezone)

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Re: WiFi chip squeezes 802.11n into MicroSD cards

[andy selby]

Would the fact that the microSD card is buried inside the neo
attenuate the signal?
Looks like a good way of retro-fitting wi-fi into my GTA01

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WiFi chip squeezes 802.11n into MicroSD cards

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Something interesting - could be good to see in GTA03:

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8925554018.html

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Lon Lentz]

  It's extremely difficult (if not impossible) to properly test the hardware
in a hardware/software system when the software that the hardware is
depending on is incomplete and bug ridden.


On Jan 10, 2008 12:16 PM, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> While that's true, it was pretty clearly implied (I'm not going to dig
> far enough to see if it was explicitly stated) that these were
> software issues.  Also, 'yet' pretty clearly implies that the problem
> is expected to be temporary.
>
> 
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Maciej Kaniewski writes:
>...
>What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
>
>   - reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>   - reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>   - integrated GPRS data access
>   - bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>   - proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>   - ringtone (or other) profile management
>   - network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>   ...)
>   - a complete application framework where third party application
>   developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
>
>
>As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone

While that's true, it was pretty clearly implied (I'm not going to dig
far enough to see if it was explicitly stated) that these were
software issues.  Also, 'yet' pretty clearly implies that the problem
is expected to be temporary.

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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[joerg]

Am Do  10. Januar 2008 schrieb Sébastien Lorquet:
> For me, one year is 12 months so one quarter is 3 months, and then:
> 1st day of 1st quarter = january 1
> 1st day of 2nd quarter = april 1
> and so on...
>
> Don't tell us you will release gta02 for the second quarter of 2008 :)
For me "late in spring" sounds like 3. quarter, for the topic of 
IT-industries' announcements. If there are no "unexpected" delays ;-)
j

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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Sébastien Lorquet]

For me, one year is 12 months so one quarter is 3 months, and then:
1st day of 1st quarter = january 1
1st day of 2nd quarter = april 1
and so on...

Don't tell us you will release gta02 for the second quarter of 2008 :)

Sebastien
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Steven **]

Having quarters may be standard.  When the quarters begin and end is
not so much...

-Steven

On Jan 10, 2008 9:41 AM, Joseph Reeves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Talk of quarters might be more helpful (and standard within the
> business world), but a date would be even better!
>
> Joseph (waiting with anticipation)
>
>
>
>
> On 10/01/2008, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It's an excellent description because they don't want to be specific!
> > Push it more and I could see them just saying "It'll be out in 2008".
> >
> > -Steven
> >
> > On Jan 9, 2008 6:51 PM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Jeff Bailes wrote:
> > > >> FreeRunner is due for release at the end of Spring, but which Spring
> > > >> is this? East Asia? US? Europe?
> > > >
> > > >   I have to say, spring is a bad description of when FreeRunner 
> > > > will be
> > > > released, though from my knowledge East Asia, the US and Europe all 
> > > > have spring
> > > > at the same time +- 24 hours.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be spring in 
> > > > the
> > > > southern hemisphere since that's still ten and a half months away.
> > >
> > > Amen.  Using seasons for describing milestones (a common US behaviour)
> > > or even worse using holidays (e.g. we'll release that by Thanksgiving),
> > > is always the *wrong* thing to do.
> > >
> > > -- Rod (who is south of the equator, and also on a half-hour timezone)
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >
> >
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Joseph Reeves]

Talk of quarters might be more helpful (and standard within the
business world), but a date would be even better!

Joseph (waiting with anticipation)



On 10/01/2008, Steven ** <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's an excellent description because they don't want to be specific!
> Push it more and I could see them just saying "It'll be out in 2008".
>
> -Steven
>
> On Jan 9, 2008 6:51 PM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Jeff Bailes wrote:
> > >> FreeRunner is due for release at the end of Spring, but which Spring
> > >> is this? East Asia? US? Europe?
> > >
> > >   I have to say, spring is a bad description of when FreeRunner will 
> > > be
> > > released, though from my knowledge East Asia, the US and Europe all have 
> > > spring
> > > at the same time +- 24 hours.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be spring in 
> > > the
> > > southern hemisphere since that's still ten and a half months away.
> >
> > Amen.  Using seasons for describing milestones (a common US behaviour)
> > or even worse using holidays (e.g. we'll release that by Thanksgiving),
> > is always the *wrong* thing to do.
> >
> > -- Rod (who is south of the equator, and also on a half-hour timezone)
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
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Re: Community update, January 2, 2008

[Steven **]

It's an excellent description because they don't want to be specific!
Push it more and I could see them just saying "It'll be out in 2008".

-Steven

On Jan 9, 2008 6:51 PM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Bailes wrote:
> >> FreeRunner is due for release at the end of Spring, but which Spring
> >> is this? East Asia? US? Europe?
> >
> >   I have to say, spring is a bad description of when FreeRunner will be
> > released, though from my knowledge East Asia, the US and Europe all have 
> > spring
> > at the same time +- 24 hours.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be spring in the
> > southern hemisphere since that's still ten and a half months away.
>
> Amen.  Using seasons for describing milestones (a common US behaviour)
> or even worse using holidays (e.g. we'll release that by Thanksgiving),
> is always the *wrong* thing to do.
>
> -- Rod (who is south of the equator, and also on a half-hour timezone)
>
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nkoli]

On Jan 10, 2008 5:41 AM, Nils Faerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
> standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
> days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
> realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
> not very good but acceptable.
>

5 days of standby is more than acceptable. Heck 3 days of standby is about
average for smart phones nowadays. Every phone I've had for the past four
years has gotten charged on a mostly daily basis, so if this is the hardware
bug, it puts the neo in line with many other smart phones.
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Re: power management on Neo1973

[rakshat hooja]

Hey, I  am not even thinking of sending the phone back anywhere. I love it.
Was just trying to clarify what i had been reading on the IRC and the list.

It would have been great if suspend could have worked perfectly on on the
Neo1973 (ever in the future) -an added bonus that allowed one to not worry
about deep discharge, take the Neo away from the computer and show to other
interested people.

That being said people do read the wiki page before buying and also note

"To clarify some misconceptions about what this is, please read this
article.

The product status is the *earliest possible time in development* at which
we can provide* functional hardware*  (italics added by Rakshat) with a very
early, very incomplete software stack"

This need to be corrected if power management is a hardware problem.

Also the portion where it says "no reasonable battery life yet" gives the
impression that there will be reasonable battery life in the future.

I will edit the wiki but only after i get some confirmation for OM or FIC
that it is indeed a hardware problem.
Rakshat




-- Forwarded message --
> From: "Nicolas Linkert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: community@lists.openmoko.org
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:47:10 +0100
> Subject: Re: Power Management on Neo1973
> Hi,
>
> I sent this to FIC:
>
> 
> before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it],
> I'll need to find out the following:
>
> Question:
> "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
> closed
> etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
> Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
> this?"
>
> Answer:
> "I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo
> parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related,
> otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the
> Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."
>
> This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
> (Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
> need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
> the case, then I would like to give my phone back.
>
> Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
> -
>
> The answer I got:
>
> "The answer is correct."
>
> So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
> EUR 300,00 wasted ...
>
> Best regards,
> Nicolas
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Maciej Kaniewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List for OpenMoko community discussion"  >
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:02:47 +
> Subject: Re: Power Management on Neo1973
>
> Hi,
> from openmoko.com shop page :
>
> WARNING: Developers only! Please note that the OpenMoko products are not
> meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this
> time. Read this wiki 
> articleto find more 
> technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
> devices.
>
> ... and when you follow the link you can find
> ...
> What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
>
>- reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>- reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>- integrated GPRS data access
>- bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>- ringtone (or other) profile management
>- network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>...)
>- a complete application framework where third party application
>developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
>
>
> As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone
>
> Maciej
>
> On 10/01/2008, Nicolas Linkert < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I sent this to FIC:
> >
> > 
> > before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it],
> > I'll need to find out the following:
> >
> > Question:
> > "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> > the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> > software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
> > closed
> > etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
> > Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
> > this?"
> >
> > Answer:
> > "I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo
> > parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related,
> > otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on th

Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Nicolas Linkert schrieb:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
>> If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
>> standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
>> days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
>> realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
>> not very good but acceptable.
> 
> 5 days would be acceptable, I think
>  
>> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
>> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
>> eater.
> 
> How do you apply the modem firmware? Can I do this myself? Or is this a
> case of sending the device to FIC and thye're doing it for me? 

That is currently sorted out... OpenMoko people are negptiating
licensing agreements and contracts for this so that end users can do the
upgrade themselves.

Stay tuned!

And please do get my message right - it is my *hope* that the new
firmware will also improve PM since PM issues of the GSM are know to be
caused by the firmware. There is no confirmation of this potential fix.

> Best regards,
> Nicolas
Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nicolas Linkert]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:41:09 +0100, "Nils Faerber"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
> standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
> days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
> realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
> not very good but acceptable.

5 days would be acceptable, I think
 
> So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
> modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
> eater.

How do you apply the modem firmware? Can I do this myself? Or is this a
case of sending the device to FIC and thye're doing it for me? 

Best regards,
Nicolas

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nicolas Linkert]

Lorn, I'd be more than happy to use qtopia, but I need a - smowhat
reliable - power management wich is in my eyes essential for a working
phone. I don't care for GPRS, nor do I care for BT. But at least powert
management should work.

Best regards,
Nicolas

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:29:47 +1000, "Lorn Potter"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Maciej Kaniewski wrote:
> 
> > What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
> > 
> > * reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
> > * reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
> > * integrated GPRS data access
> > * bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
> > * proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
> > * ringtone (or other) profile management
> > * network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection, ...)
> > * a complete application framework where third party application
> >   developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko
> >   world 
> 
> 
> I just have to say, all of these except GPRS, the power management and 
> some of the bluetooth capabilities are included and working in the 
> Qtopia image for Neo.
> 
> If you do want to use the Neo as your phone, Qtopia will be your best
> bet.
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Lorn 'ljp' Potter
> Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech
> 
> 

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Re: Kernel upgrade by ipkg

[Werner Almesberger]

Graeme Gregory wrote:
> Your too late, I already added that to OE.

Ah, great ! :-) Thanks a lot !

- Werner

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Ben Wilson]

I think your jumping the gun quite a bit

All we know at the moment is that there *is* a hardware bug.
We dont know;
A) If the hardware bug is bypassable in software

B) If the hardware is fixable by us. I did read somewhere that it was 
an 'incorrect resistor' problem. If this is true
and the resistor is somewhere easy to get at then changing it shouldn't 
be a problem for any experience electronics person.


C) How much the bug actually effects the battery life. You are blaming 
the current short battery life entirely on this bug.
There is probably still areas of software power management that haven't 
been done/finished yet.


D) If it really matters. I would expect a phone like the neo to run for 
about a week in standby.
If the hardware bug shortens this to a final standby time of say 3 days 
then so what,

some brand new 3G phones only get that.

The software isn't finished yet, until it is we wont know the true 
standby time
(fyi. I got 9 hours standby from one of the buildhost moko builds the 
other day, dunno how that compares with

everyone else)

In my opinion  GTA01 is, and always was, a phone to develop applications on
not use as your everyday phone. That's what GTA02 is for :)

Ben.


Robin Paulson wrote:


the word 'yet' is very telling. it strongly implies it will be there
at some point. if it's a hardware bug, it'll never be fixed
  


Nicolas Linkert wrote:


So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
EUR 300,00 wasted ...

Best regards,
Nicolas

  


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

I postponed buying the neo, because the things i would do with it  
will include networking (wifi) and i would really like to play with  
'accelerometers'. But reading the presentation i was sure that  
hardware was, for that version "usable".


A good example what I mean in my previous post. A GTA02 (or GTA01.5)  
with working accelerometers to play with could already be reason  
enough to buy it. Even if some other part (e.g. WLAN, the new GPS  
chip etc.) is not working. So you would probably already have bought  
one in December (if it were available).


I think, OM should probably change the strategy and produce new  
devices (in smaller quantities) as soon as they have something  
working (and not to wait for everything being perfect).


i have some fears to buy gta2 that would be the "hardware test for  
gta03 -the_real_version) or maybe gta04 ?


There will always come something new. After the gta04 comes a gta05  
making the gta04 a hardware test for it.


We as the users and customers, probably should change our view and  
not expect a perfect device from OM but that they rapidly improve  
features. There will then always be some 10% new hardware features  
that won't work. Or not perfectly - but 90% to play with.


If market introduction slips away even more, there will be other  
devices available (Androids?) which already provide what had been  
targeted for the gta02 - and then there will never be a gta03.


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

I certainly know that. But it says:

- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)

There is this tiny "yet". It suggests that it - the GTA01 - is  
going to
have a reasonable battery life in the future. And that's not going  
to be

the case.


I think that this sentence was written in July 2007, just before the  
selling

of the GTA01 devices started and was never changed (why: because it was
part of the offer - and you shouldn't change offers afterwards).

So it simply describes the expectations that the OpenMoko team did  
have at that time:


"there is no reasonable battery life yet (as of July 2007 - and we  
expect that it can

be improved with progress in the software)."

Since nobody can look into the future, nobody could *know* that it  
may become
an unsolvable problem. Note, that in software, you can solve any  
problem (unless
NP complete or logically contradictionary) by putting more work in  
and distributing

an upgrade. In hardware this is not possible.

Therefore, I guess, the OM team still works heavily towards the GTA02  
to make it

perfect and to avoid such situations.

Originally I found that a good decision.

Now, I feel that this was the *wrong* strategy to delay the GTA02 until
its hardware perfect (it *never* will be perfect!). I would have been  
happy with a GTA02
coming for Xmas 07 with still some hardware issues (as long as they  
are less than with the

GTA01) and a GTA03 for summer 2008 fixing even more of them.

So I ask myself what a difference it would have made if a GTA01.5  
with no working WLAN had been
made available in December? It would still have been better than a  
GTA01.


Every large phone manufacturer prepares to have updates/upgrades  
every 6 months to
introduce new form factors/designs. It is common practice to start  
sales as soon as a certain
level of functionality is reached and improve the hardware while  
already in prodution (board revisions).


But that is a different topic.

-- hns

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nils Faerber]

Nicolas Linkert schrieb:
> Hi,
Hi!

> I certainly know that. But it says:
> 
> - proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
> 
> There is this tiny "yet". It suggests that it - the GTA01 - is going to
> have a reasonable battery life in the future. And that's not going to be
> the case.

Well, I am not the best person to comment on that but I will try anyway
to give my opinion on that based on experience with PM on mobile devices...

Getting the standby current right on a mobile device is a tremendously
tedious process involving a lot of work, a lot of testing, experience,
careful crafting of the suspend/resume paths in software, a proper
hardware design and proper hardware parts.

>From what I have seen in the kernel, all suspend and resume paths are
properly taken care of. If at all they need a little tuning but I am
pretty sure that 99% of what can be done is done. The NEO suspends to
RAM just fine and also wakes up fine, most devices inside powered down
during syspend.

There are hardware design issues reported by FIC/OpenMoko people that
are rumored to prevent real low-power standby - well, I think we cannot
help that, but I suspect this in the low <<5mA range we can expect to
save here.

The real power-eater right now, according to my measures, is the GSM
modem. And this also has been partially confirmed on the mailinglists.
If I remember correctly the current firmware of the TI modem does not do
proper active-standby modes (i.e. a low power mode but still being GSM
connected so that you can still receive calls and SMS). This causes a
power drain in the range of 10-20mA even in standby/suspend.

If you then calculate a 1200mAh battery and assume only 20mA total
standby drain this will "only" give you 60h or a little less than 3
days. If we could get this down to a total of 10mA, which is IMHO
realistic, this would already give you 5 days of standby. This is still
not very good but acceptable.


So buttomline is I would not see it *that* black. Let's hope for the new
modem firmware since the modem is currently the biggest standby current
eater.


> Best regards,
> Nicolas
Cheers
  nils


> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:02:47 +, "Maciej Kaniewski"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> Hi,
>> from openmoko.com shop page :
>>
>> WARNING: Developers only! Please note that the OpenMoko products are not
>> meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this
>> time. Read this wiki
>> articleto find more
>> technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
>> devices.
>>
>> ... and when you follow the link you can find
>> ...
>> What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
>>
>>- reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>>- reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>>- integrated GPRS data access
>>- bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>>- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>>- ringtone (or other) profile management
>>- network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>>...)
>>- a complete application framework where third party application
>>developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko
>>world
>>
>>
>> As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone
>>
>> Maciej
> 

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[herve couvelard]

Robin Paulson wrote:

On 10/01/2008, Maciej Kaniewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 What you CAN NOT expect yet
 reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
 reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
 integrated GPRS data access
 bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
 proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
 ringtone (or other) profile management
 network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection, ...)
 a complete application framework where third party application developers
can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone


the word 'yet' is very telling. it strongly implies it will be there
at some point. if it's a hardware bug, it'll never be fixed


I agree with that. The feeling i had when i read what was said on the 
page was : the firmware and software are not ready but the hardware is.


If not the wording should have been :
" What you CAN NOT expect".

I postponed buying the neo, because the things i would do with it will 
include networking (wifi) and i would really like to play with 
'accelerometers'. But reading the presentation i was sure that hardware 
was, for that version "usable".


i have some fears to buy gta2 that would be the "hardware test for gta03 
-the_real_version) or maybe gta04 ?


Hervé













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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Lorn Potter]

Maciej Kaniewski wrote:


What you *CAN NOT* expect yet

* reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
* reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
* integrated GPRS data access
* bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
* proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
* ringtone (or other) profile management
* network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection, ...)
* a complete application framework where third party application
  developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko
  world 



I just have to say, all of these except GPRS, the power management and 
some of the bluetooth capabilities are included and working in the 
Qtopia image for Neo.


If you do want to use the Neo as your phone, Qtopia will be your best bet.
:)




--
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nicolas Linkert]

Hi,

I certainly know that. But it says:

- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)

There is this tiny "yet". It suggests that it - the GTA01 - is going to
have a reasonable battery life in the future. And that's not going to be
the case.

Best regards,
Nicolas


On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:02:47 +, "Maciej Kaniewski"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Hi,
> from openmoko.com shop page :
> 
> WARNING: Developers only! Please note that the OpenMoko products are not
> meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this
> time. Read this wiki
> articleto find more
> technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
> devices.
> 
> ... and when you follow the link you can find
> ...
> What you *CAN NOT* expect yet
> 
>- reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>- reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>- integrated GPRS data access
>- bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>- proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>- ringtone (or other) profile management
>- network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
>...)
>- a complete application framework where third party application
>developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko
>world
> 
> 
> As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone
> 
> Maciej


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Robin Paulson]

On 10/01/2008, Maciej Kaniewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  What you CAN NOT expect yet
>  reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
>  reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
>  integrated GPRS data access
>  bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
>  proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
>  ringtone (or other) profile management
>  network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection, ...)
>  a complete application framework where third party application developers
> can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world
> As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone

the word 'yet' is very telling. it strongly implies it will be there
at some point. if it's a hardware bug, it'll never be fixed

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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[ian douglas]

Well, if you live in a remote area of the USA, the lack of 850MHz band 
would prevent you from using it as a phone ;o)


-id


Tim Niemeyer wrote:

Hi,

Powermanagement isn't only suspend2ram! There are also other things!

What are the hardware problems in GTA01, preventing it from using it as a
phone?

* Nicolas Linkert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 10:47]:

Hi,

I sent this to FIC:


before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it], 
I'll need to find out the following:


Question:
"I have been following the improving power management conversation on
the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
closed
etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
this?"

Answer:
"I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo 
parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related, 
otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the 
Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."


This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
(Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
the case, then I would like to give my phone back. 


Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
-

The answer I got:

"The answer is correct."

So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
EUR 300,00 wasted ...



Tim Niemeyer




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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Tim Niemeyer]

Hi,

Powermanagement isn't only suspend2ram! There are also other things!

What are the hardware problems in GTA01, preventing it from using it as a
phone?

* Nicolas Linkert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [10-01-08 10:47]:
> Hi,
> 
> I sent this to FIC:
> 
> 
> before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it], 
> I'll need to find out the following:
> 
> Question:
> "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
> closed
> etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
> Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
> this?"
> 
> Answer:
> "I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo 
> parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related, 
> otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the 
> Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."
> 
> This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
> (Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
> need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
> the case, then I would like to give my phone back. 
> 
> Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
> -
> 
> The answer I got:
> 
> "The answer is correct."
> 
> So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
> EUR 300,00 wasted ...


Tim Niemeyer


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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Maciej Kaniewski]

Hi,
from openmoko.com shop page :

WARNING: Developers only! Please note that the OpenMoko products are not
meant for the end user and explicitly marked as Developer preview at this
time. Read this wiki
articleto find more
technical details of what you can and cannot expect of these
devices.

... and when you follow the link you can find
...
What you *CAN NOT* expect yet

   - reliable means of making phone calls, esp. not from the UI
   - reliable means of sending/receiving SMS, esp. not from the UI
   - integrated GPRS data access
   - bluetooth integration (basic bluez driver works)
   - proper power management (i.e. no reasonable battery life yet)
   - ringtone (or other) profile management
   - network preferences (call deflection, manual operator selection,
   ...)
   - a complete application framework where third party application
   developers can write apps that easily integrate with the OpenMoko world


As far as i know you had to agree with that  when you bought the phone

Maciej

On 10/01/2008, Nicolas Linkert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I sent this to FIC:
>
> 
> before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it],
> I'll need to find out the following:
>
> Question:
> "I have been following the improving power management conversation on
> the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
> software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
> closed
> etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
> Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
> this?"
>
> Answer:
> "I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo
> parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related,
> otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the
> Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."
>
> This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
> (Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
> need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
> the case, then I would like to give my phone back.
>
> Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
> -
>
> The answer I got:
>
> "The answer is correct."
>
> So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
> EUR 300,00 wasted ...
>
> Best regards,
> Nicolas
>
> ___
> OpenMoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
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Re: Power Management on Neo1973

[Nicolas Linkert]

Hi,

I sent this to FIC:


before I do that [send my device back to FIC and exchange it], 
I'll need to find out the following:

Question:
"I have been following the improving power management conversation on
the IRC logs and on this list but am still not clear if it is only a
software problem (suspend issues, devices not shutting off when being
closed
etc.)or there are Major hardware issues involved (I am talking about the
Gta1 devices not FreeRunner). Could someone from OM or FIC clarify
this?"

Answer:
"I am not from fic or OM, but from what I can tell (I developed the Neo 
parts of Qtopia), power management issues are hardware related, 
otherwise Qtopia would suspend/resume perfectly, as it does on the 
Greenphone and other handsets Qtopia comes with."

This appeared yesterday/today on one of the the OpenMoko mailing lists
(Community). IF the answer to the question is correct, then there's no
need to exchange my phone - it simply won't improve then. But IF that is
the case, then I would like to give my phone back. 

Hope someone from FIC can clear this up.
-

The answer I got:

"The answer is correct."

So the GTA01 will in fact never be usable as a phone. Too bad. And some
EUR 300,00 wasted ...

Best regards,
Nicolas

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