Re: freerunnter - get it over trisoft

2008-03-21 Thread Carlo E. Prelz
Subject: Re: freerunnter - get it over trisoft
Date: ven 21 mar 08 05:04:55 +

Quoting Stroller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 But I do agree with you. VAT doesn't help me, either. I don't use any of 
 those silly services (like hospitals and roads) that taxes go to  
 support! I should be exempt from paying for them!!

 And as for recycling! Why should I care about electronics in landfills 
 leaking lead  mercury into the water supply? I won't be around next 
 century to worry about it!!

:-)

I had previously stated as a dire need the fact of having an identical
*PRE-TAX* price for the freerunner on the two shores of the big
pond. A basic option (with just one year of warranty, e-mail or
IRC-based support, just the standard package content that comes from
FIC) should be available and clearly advertised. With a precisely
itemized price, and no intermediaries if at all possible. Resellers
should earn their market share by offering premium services. They
should not be the only choice.

Carlo

-- 
  * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
  *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)

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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Lowell Higley
Having lived in the US and Europe...

1) We usually do pay shipping from China.  It's usually built into the cost
of the product so it's hard to say exactly what it is.  I would guess less
than $10 a unit.
2) We do not have VAT in the US.  Closest thing we have to it is sales tax.
Most states have a sales tax rate of about 7 to 8 % (not 19) while some
states like Oregon have no sales tax.  Sales tax is ONLY charged when the
product is sold to the consumer, not every time it changes hands getting to
market. Also, if you are a resident of one state and purchase via mail
(post) and have it shipped to your state and the reseller has no offices in
your state, you do not have to pay your state's or the reseller's state
sales tax.  So I live in Las Vegas, Nevada, if I buy the Freerunner via post
from a reseller in Arizona and that reseller does not have an office/store
in Nevada, I pay no sales tax... just shipping (which sometimes can be more
than tax.)
3) The only state I know of that has state mandated recycling/environmental
fees is California.  The fee  is usually assessed on items that have a
battery or could be hazardous if disposed of incorrectly (LCD monitors and
TV's for example.)
6) I believe that for a product to be sold in the US, the manufacturer must
meet certain warranty requirements.  I haven't dealt with this in over 10
years but my memory tells me that the only cost a reseller is obligated to
incur is for shipping products back to the manufacturer for service.  I'm
sure that may vary by state and that laws have more than likely changed in
the last 10 years.

Hope that helps.

Lowell


On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 6:40 PM, thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Since nobody seems to realize it, I guess I have to explain this.
  1. Even the distributor has to pay shipping
  2. 19% VAT in germany
  3. x% additional fees (recycling, ...) in germany/europe
  4. 2 years warranty in germany
  5. The dollar-euro change will not always remain nearby 1.60$/1€
  6. People who handle the shipping and warranty in germany, do you think
  they can work for free?
 
  Don't get me wrong, I also like to get products cheap and not too
  expensive, but nobody can really expect to get the device for 285 euro from
  a resaler - you have to pay the 19% even if you import by yourself (the 19%
  are also on the shipping fees).
 
 
 
 Regarding points 1, 2, 3 and 6 - doesn't the US have something similar?
 Regarding 5 - shouldn't the prices be according to current exchange rates?
 Isn't that the whole point of exchange rates?

 --
 Vincent
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Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Sean Moss-Pultz

Dear Community

Not sure if you've already seen this...

  http://lwn.net/Articles/274173/

A great honor handed down to a true freedom fighter!

Sean

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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread ramsesoriginal
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Christian Beier ha scritto:

  Am Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:48:10 +0100
   schrieb Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  
  
   What we Europeans would need is a FIC subsidiary somewhere here,
  
   As I read FIC has some branch in Czech or Slovakia. Thing is: If you
   ship a container €70 is definitely not the price per device.
   You can help: motivate enough penguin people to buy a new phone and
   maybe some one will risk such order.
  
   If FIC could ship them to Czech (or Slovakia) with their in house
   post it might be easier to get a good price.
  
   Let's hope.
   Christian
  
  This is what i'd like to do with my LUG and some other people near me,
  take the name, make only one order of 10 Neos and then give the phones
  to the people. Obviously the price will not be lowered a lot, but the
  shipping costs are usually divided so in total it will cost less to
  everyone. We always do the same with thinkgeek things or some CDs or DVDs.

  Just my 0.2€cent :D

  Pietro


The same also holds true if (and here comes the crazy part: correct me
if it's illegal) someone want's to buy a bunch of Freerunners (let's
say 10), customize them (with custom themes, programs, settings, maybe
even pre-filled data, some additional hardware, case mods, and much
more), and resell them, either to privates that want given features,
or to firms as a working phone, or for some specific application (for
example skiers, with custom software and theme).
Doing so would also allow to grow a family of hacks around the
openmoko (a version with a webcam? with build-in batteries? with r/c
sender incorporated? with wooden case?).
Just my two €-cents

-- 
My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org

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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Andy Powell
On Thursday 20 March 2008 16:05, Stroller wrote:

snip

 But we must remember that an importer has to tie his own money up in
 stock (money that could otherwise be earning interest for him) and
 gamble with the currency exchange rates. If he buys when the dollar
 is at  1:X and the exchange rate changes disfavourably to 1:Y, then
 he has to swallow the difference on all his existing stock. 

snip

Actually the best way to handle that is to buy currency at a fixed, guaranteed 
price. ukforex (no affiliaton) do this sort of thing. I don;t understand why 
more people don't do it. If you're importing stuff on a regular basis it just 
makes sense..

Andy


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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Sean Moss-Pultz

ramsesoriginal wrote:

On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Christian Beier ha scritto:


Am Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:48:10 +0100

  schrieb Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
 
  What we Europeans would need is a FIC subsidiary somewhere here,
 
  As I read FIC has some branch in Czech or Slovakia. Thing is: If you
  ship a container €70 is definitely not the price per device.
  You can help: motivate enough penguin people to buy a new phone and
  maybe some one will risk such order.
 
  If FIC could ship them to Czech (or Slovakia) with their in house
  post it might be easier to get a good price.
 
  Let's hope.
  Christian
 
 This is what i'd like to do with my LUG and some other people near me,
 take the name, make only one order of 10 Neos and then give the phones
 to the people. Obviously the price will not be lowered a lot, but the
 shipping costs are usually divided so in total it will cost less to
 everyone. We always do the same with thinkgeek things or some CDs or DVDs.

 Just my 0.2€cent :D

 Pietro



The same also holds true if (and here comes the crazy part: correct me
if it's illegal) someone want's to buy a bunch of Freerunners (let's
say 10), customize them (with custom themes, programs, settings, maybe
even pre-filled data, some additional hardware, case mods, and much
more), and resell them, either to privates that want given features,
or to firms as a working phone, or for some specific application (for
example skiers, with custom software and theme).
Doing so would also allow to grow a family of hacks around the
openmoko (a version with a webcam? with build-in batteries? with r/c
sender incorporated? with wooden case?).
Just my two €-cents


There is nothing crazy about this idea. In fact, this is exactly what 
we're planning for ;-)


Details will come later from Steve or Harry.

Sean


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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

2008-03-21 Thread geniere90

Of course I won't change my buying plans, too ;)
Also my Nokia N80 do the same, so this won't be a problem for me!

Ugo Raffaele

- Original Message - 
From: Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 2:32 AM
Subject: Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status


 Ugo Raffaele wrote:
 I agree! One day I brought my Neo at school, going on foot to
  test the AGPS reicever. It was *very* difficult to read on the screen!
 
 Mhmmh... This might be a great problem... I heard/understood a 
 completely different thing about the Neo LCD!
 
 Anyway I won't change my buying plans, but I'm quite disappointed about 
 this :/. I like sunny days! :D
 -- 
 Treviño's World - Life and Linux
 http://www.3v1n0.net/



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Vuoi dare voce alla tua attivita`? 
Acquista un dominio su http://domini.interfree.it



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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano

ramsesoriginal ha scritto:

The same also holds true if (and here comes the crazy part: correct me
if it's illegal) someone want's to buy a bunch of Freerunners (let's
say 10), customize them (with custom themes, programs, settings, maybe
even pre-filled data, some additional hardware, case mods, and much
more), and resell them, either to privates that want given features,
or to firms as a working phone, or for some specific application (for
example skiers, with custom software and theme).
Doing so would also allow to grow a family of hacks around the
openmoko (a version with a webcam? with build-in batteries? with r/c
sender incorporated? with wooden case?).
Just my two €-cents

Well, nothing like that, my situation is:
pietro want a neo, paolo want a neo, marco want a neo and they live in 
the same city, they know each other, so there are 2 solution, they 
separately buy 3 neos paying 3 times the shipping cost or make a single 
order paying only one time the shipping cost and dividing this cost in 
three. Doing the second solution you have satisfied the three friends 
and they have paid less than making three separate orders.

I think that there is nothing illegal in that, only logic.
Neo cost = 400$
shipping = 20$
vat = 20% (here in itay) so 80$

so if paolo, pietro and marco make 3 different orders they have to pay
500$ per neo, 1500$ in total
if they make a single order they have to pay
(480x3 + 20) /3 = 486$ per neo and 1460$ in total
The example oviously is notso good with only 20$ for shipping but it 
give an idea of what i'd like to do. Nothing wrong with law or anything 
i think.


Cya!

Pietro


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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

2008-03-21 Thread geniere90

LOL ^^

Apart from the joke, as soon as possible I'll post here some photos!

Ugo Raffaele

- Original Message - 
From: Etienne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

 You guys in Italy have a too bright sun ! I'm jealous !
 
 Selon [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 

 I agree! One day I brought my Neo at school, going on foot to test the AGPS
 reicever. It was *very* difficult to read on the screen!

 Ugo Raffaele



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Re: Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Sébastien Lorquet
Yes, I saw this yesterday.
Congrats too!

Sebastien.
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Re: Future hardware options

2008-03-21 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Thursday 20 March 2008 23:13:59 Andy Green wrote:
 Agreed here... the main constraint will be that if we want the display
 active, we need to have the main CPU up to generate the video.  But I am
 hoping we will be able to pretty strongly in most cases have the CPU
 power acting in sync to the LCM backlight power, in terms the CPU goes
 into its lowest power standby mode as soon as the display is not lit, a
 tap on the touchscreen or whatever else you would use to get the display
 lit again also wakes the CPU.


Well with a transflective display you could do some data display even without 
powering the backlight. Many phones do this to display time etc, that would 
be very useful to have in my view.


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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Peter Trapp
On Mittwoch, 19. März 2008, Carlo E. Prelz wrote:
 Quoting Peter Trapp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
  Well, I've paid 300€ (=300$) for Neo1973 even without any reseller and
  group purchasing with two other guys to save shipping costs  (to
  Germany)!!
 
  So, where is the big problem?

 You can go to www.oanda.com/convert/classic to have currency
 conversions for any date.


Oh nice. I've search for end of April 2008 and didn't get any result? Also 
there is no real date when the Freerunner will be available. And also not how 
much it will cost.


 On the date of Sean's famous Get them while they're still hot!
 message, when ordering for Neo's was opened (9 July 07), 300$ equalled
 220.216 euros. Today, the same 300$ equal 190.317 euros. This *should*
 be evident from the pricing.

That is true and really a point! But how much will the exchange rate at end of 
April?



In [1] it is said that (discussion between ScaredyCat and TRIsoft):
TRIsoft 399$ would make 257 EUR
TRIsoft Shipping from China / Taiwan / US appr. $70 to Europe
TRIsoft is $469, makes 302 EUR
TRIsoft plus 19% VAT is 360 EUR for a self import at the actual price.
TRIsoft 399 EUR for the preorders is what we fixed during the meetings with 
a capping if the USD should fall in April
TRIsoft Be sure, that we will lower the price, if possible.
TRIsoft Actually, all we can say is: A device in Europe will cost not more 
than 399 EUR.
TRIsoft Including all legal expenses and VAT
TRIsoft And, believe me, the profit is not big. Profit may be less than zero 
if we run into warranty problems.
TRIsoft We're in daily contact with the people at OM and i hope that we'll 
be able to lower the EU price a bit. But we'll never get 250 EUR.

snip





 Resellers should get their profit from buying large quantities at a
 discounted price, I believe.


Yes, I think so ...


Don't get me wrong, the lower the price the better ;)

cheers,
- homyx


[1]: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-March/014226.html


-- 
It is hardly possible forecasting particularly for the future...

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Re: Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Torfinn Ingolfsen
Hi,

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:16 AM, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Community

  Not sure if you've already seen this...

http://lwn.net/Articles/274173/

  A great honor handed down to a true freedom fighter!

  Sean

Thanks for sharing this.
And congratulations to Harald - well deserved!
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Friday 21 March 2008 11:01:37 Andy Powell wrote:

 Actually the best way to handle that is to buy currency at a fixed,
 guaranteed price. ukforex (no affiliaton) do this sort of thing. I don;t
 understand why more people don't do it. If you're importing stuff on a
 regular basis it just makes sense..

That just moves to problem to the question of when should I enter the 
forward. 



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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Stroller


On 21 Mar 2008, at 10:01, Andy Powell wrote:


On Thursday 20 March 2008 16:05, Stroller wrote:

snip


But we must remember that an importer has to tie his own money up in
stock (money that could otherwise be earning interest for him) and
gamble with the currency exchange rates. If he buys when the dollar
is at  1:X and the exchange rate changes disfavourably to 1:Y, then
he has to swallow the difference on all his existing stock.


snip

Actually the best way to handle that is to buy currency at a fixed,  
guaranteed
price. ukforex (no affiliaton) do this sort of thing. I don;t  
understand why
more people don't do it. If you're importing stuff on a regular  
basis it just

makes sense..


Perhaps I'm failing to understand what ukforex does, but let's say I  
buy 100 units at $100 each, and buy 1.5 dollars for a Euro. I have  
spent $10,000 or €6,666 on the devices, or €66 each.


A month or two later the dollar falls to $2:€1 - everyone starts  
complaining that a $100 device should only cost €50. That doesn't  
really help me, if I have 50 devices which I paid €66 for remaining  
in stock.


(I hope I got the maths right - it's a little early in the morning  
here).


Generally speaking currency fluctuations aren't so great over a short  
period, but nevertheless margins can be quite small, too (otherwise  
consumers start whinging about how they're being ripped-off!!).  
Consequently apparently-small fluctuations can make a big difference  
in the trader's pocket.


In another post the importer is quoted as saying we're no bastards  
making a $100 profit with each box. Now I no longer sell or import  
hardware, and never did so full time, but I wouldn't bother selling  
the Freerunner unless I DID make the best part of $100 on each one.  
The Freerunner importer is CLEARLY no bastards!!


I used to sell wireless cards as guaranteed Linux-compatible and made  
a 33% - 50% markup on each one, but even with that markup it wasn't  
worthwhile. Actually, 33% - 50% is a naive assessment of markup,  
because Google Adwords took a massive chunk out of that, but  
nevertheless the size of the Linux market is too small to support  
much business; one has to pay one's employees, the 1% or 2% you lose  
because everyone wants to pay by credit-card is like being stabbed to  
death with sewing needles and finally the taxman wants a cut of one's  
profit!! Margins on selling hardware are just so small that I don't  
know why anyone would wish to expose themselves to this list's whining!


Stroller.


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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

2008-03-21 Thread Lally Singh
Definite cultural problem within the open source/free software
community.  People use it for both definitions of 'free', and complain
heavily over everything that isn't free (in $$).   Small companies
need to account for the risks they're taking for the community in
their margins, otherwise they starve and fail -- notice the # of
failed linux companies in the last 10 years?

JWZ once said, linux is only free if your time is worth nothing.
With modern distros, that's no longer the case -- you get a nice
desktop system with less hassle than most windows users.  But, the
misconception between money, labor, and risk continues on in the
community.

In the oft-repeated spirit of the open source community, if you don't
like how someone else is doing it, do it yourself.

Hmm, just thinking out loud here.  Would it be possible to distribute
OM (Om now?) phones through the community?  Single LUGs get together
and order a batch (maybe resell as a fundraiser), with the help of
some 'become-a-distributor-quick' system?  I don't know how
complicated it is in the EU to sell imported goods (I'm in the states,
this sort of stuff is one of the few last benefits), is it possible to
make it easy for a small group (or just 1 person with a few hundred
euro) to make themselves a distributor?

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Re:Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Joe Pfeiffer
Well deserved by both recipients!

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Re: Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Kevin Dean
Congrats Harald!

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Joe Pfeiffer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well deserved by both recipients!



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Re: Congratulations Harald!

2008-03-21 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
Congratulation Harald!!! It is well deserved. Keep up the great work!!!

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Official Reseller

2008-03-21 Thread Edwin Lock
Hello World, Hello Steve!
Considering that Neo Freerunner phones can be preordered now at TRIsoft[1] I
(and several others) are wondering if TRIsoft is the official reseller for
Europe? This question has arisen because Christian Pulster has claimed that
an agreement between TRIsoft and OM inc. is non-existant[2] and bases his
status of an official reseller on a press release[3].
The question is: Who is correct? Has there been an agreement? Or is this
just another case of miscommunication?
I would be pleased to get an official answer from an employee.
Regards,
Edwin Lock

[1] http://trisoft.de/openmoko
[2] http://forum.golem.de/read.php?23925,1258538,1258538#msg-1258538(german)
[3] http://forum.golem.de/read.php?23925,1258538,1259049#msg-1259049(german)
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Post GTA02 plans

2008-03-21 Thread Jeremiah Flerchinger

Michael,

I'm not sure if the other guys read this mailing list too, but I wanted 
to that all of you for opening up this topic and share my opinion.

From: Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


We had some internal talk about how to go post GTA02 and Wolfgang wants
us to make it external.

We have a choice about basing on S3C2443 or S3C6400.

I like the 6400 better but information is a bit scarce right now and it
can go either way.
I myself like the overall look of the 6400.  It has a bunch of decoding 
 I/O features. The USB 2 could be useful to some people.  It's also a 
nice step from an ARMv4 to a ARMv6 instruction set.  I didn't look too 
hard, but what are the big reasons against the 6400?

Some other concepts kicked around:

 - Merge the debug board function on to the phone, perhaps with internal
micro USB used for debricking and hacking.  No write-once memory.

This would be great. Any chance to have downloadable firmware updates?

 - Focus on SD Card rootfs rather than internal memory
Can we get a 2nd SD card slot, so 1 is for rootfs and 1 is for files in 
general?  If so, the rootfs card should be place in a separate location 
 under a cover so it isn't accidentally pulled out.

To be clear though -- GTA02 is soon going to actually exist, and this is
just future talk right now.  But because of that, if you have any ideas
about future arch, now is the time to throw them in and they will at
least get the time of day.
WiMax might be fairly interesting if it begins to permeate the market.  
I know Intel is releasing chips that combine WiMax with Wifi and adding 
it to laptops.


A slightly bigger screen might also be nice.  I can't say much about the 
future until I actually get my hands on some hardware that's been 
created to date.


-Jeremiah

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Re: Post GTA02 plans

2008-03-21 Thread Michael Shiloh

Hi Jeremiah,


Jeremiah Flerchinger wrote:

Michael,

I'm not sure if the other guys read this mailing list too, but I wanted 
to thank all of you for opening up this topic


You're very welcome.


 and share my opinion.

I should have made it clear that the discussion takes place on the 
kernel list. I reposted it here only to bring it to the attention of the 
developer community at large.


If you want the other guys to get your input please post on the kernel 
list.


Michael

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