Re: Micheal Shiloh: where were you?

[Ajit Natarajan]

Michael Shiloh wrote:
> I'm sorry to have disappointed you all. I'm afraid that due to unforseen
>  circumstances I was unable to attend. To my regret I wasn't able to
> inform the conference organizers in time.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how many were in the Openmoko session? 

Michael,

Your session was slotted for 5:30-6:30 pm today (Wednesday).
The room could hold 30+ people (I think).  And it was full.
During the dinner following the sessions, I was talking to
a consultant who said that he had bumped into you in SF
a couple of times.  He is also looking forward to laying
his hands on a Freerunner.

Will you be coming tomorrow?

I had several questions that I wanted to ask you after your session:

. Steve has ignored :( my question on the warranty.  I wanted to
  get some data from you on it.

. I wanted to find out if you knew of any group of people
  in the Bay Area who may be interested in a 10-pack.

. I wanted to hold the Freerunner to check out its feel.  I wanted
  to use the stylus to see whether I was comfortable with it.

. I wanted to ask you about ultra clear versus ultra clear plus
  LCD protectors and if you had any experience with either.

. I wanted your opinion on the software stack that would be
  available with the first product release of the Freerunner.
  I guess all this has to be done by email now :( .

Above all, I wanted to personally meet you.

I had a conversation with a Nokia research employee on the sidelines
who was talking about porting a standard Linux distribution to the
Nokia 800/810.  I asked him if Nokia had any plans on
adding a phone to their Internet tablet.  He said that he couldn't
reveal any future product plans.  I opined that this was an
advantage of Openmoko in that they were fairly forthcoming on
their plans and solicited ideas from the community.  His response was
that while Openmoko devices were good to play with and had certain
advantages (he had one himself), Nokia was a consumer oriented
company that produced and sold a huge number of consumer oriented
devices.  Not sure what he was trying to say.  I could have
gotten the two of you together and we could have had a good
conversation.  This may have been particularly useful in light
of recent threads on end customers opinions and the lack of
focus group testing.

One of the Asian companies (can't remember which, sorry), was
demonstrating Android (Google's mobile platform).  Trolltech
was demonstrating Qt on a Broadcom phone platform.  There were some
other demonstrations as well.  So, quite a few phone related
demonstrations and presentations.

Ajit

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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9. Teenagers stop fighting!

[Alexander Frøyseth]

HAHA
How old are they?

steve skrev:
 
I decided to do a test of sorts. I gave a phone to the boys and decided to

let them see if they could
Figure it out. I gave them 1 bit of info. Go buy a Pay as you go phone and
make sure it's GSM. Put
That Sim in the NEO. And I made them use their money. 


I also told them to make a you tube video. Then I said nothing else. They
went out to the stores
To get a pay as you go phone and to try to source a cable for the dang video
camera. They came back
And the cable for the video camera was the wrong one. I said nothing. We
opened the pay as you go
Phone. The plastic package was so thick I had two choices. Plasma torch or
garden shears. I chose the latter.

That's when the fight broke out between me and them. Who puts the simm card
in, etc etc?
"Dad you don't understand. Let us do it." So I did. They didn't want my damn
help and would not listen
To a fricken thing I said. I told them "fine dont screw it up."

About 10 minutes later my land line rings. Crap. Crap. crap. Who is calling
me now?

FreeRunner #98.

They will make a video later if  we can find a cable.  right now these boys
who never stop fighting are out having dinner together.

HA. Neo and world peace. I feel like miss america.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:26 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

steve wrote:
  
 
Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two 
teenage boys.


Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.



If they break the hardware, is that a successful stress test?

Ian

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Re: Micheal Shiloh: where were you?

[Michael Shiloh]

Hi Ajit,

I'm sorry to have disappointed you all. I'm afraid that due to unforseen 
 circumstances I was unable to attend. To my regret I wasn't able to 
inform the conference organizers in time.


Just out of curiosity, how many were in the Openmoko session?

Michael

Ajit Natarajan wrote:

Michael,

A lot of us were eagerly awaiting your presentation at the Embedded
Linux Conference in Mountain View, California, earlier today.  They canceled
the talk because they couldn't locate you.

We were looking forward to handling the Freerunner

Ajit

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Re: Micheal Shiloh: where were you?

[Ryan Prior]

Here's hoping there's no tragedy involved! Best wishes to Michael and the
conference-goers.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Ajit Natarajan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Michael,
>
> A lot of us were eagerly awaiting your presentation at the Embedded
> Linux Conference in Mountain View, California, earlier today.  They
> canceled
> the talk because they couldn't locate you.
>
> We were looking forward to handling the Freerunner
>
> Ajit
>
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Re: wiki help

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

Wednesday 16 April 2008 skrev Shawn:
> Hey, does someone mind answering a wiki editing question for me (off list
> that is)?
>
> It's about editing tables, specifically the group sales page.
>
> thanks,
>
> . . .Shawn

  To be entirely honest, i am not sure who figured out that a list of this 
sort would be good to make using wikimedia's table layout system, which is 
widely known as the single most convoluted system out there (mixing html and 
wiki code? brilliant choice ;) ).
  Surely, using a simple nested list would make better sense here? (if people 
accept this, i would like to volunteer to convert the table from its current 
state to a nested table with the same data)

-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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Micheal Shiloh: where were you?

[Ajit Natarajan]

Michael,

A lot of us were eagerly awaiting your presentation at the Embedded
Linux Conference in Mountain View, California, earlier today.  They canceled
the talk because they couldn't locate you.

We were looking forward to handling the Freerunner

Ajit

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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9. Teenagers stop fighting!

[Steven Le Roux]

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 3:37 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I decided to do a test of sorts. I gave a phone to the boys and decided to
> let them see if they could
> Figure it out. I gave them 1 bit of info. Go buy a Pay as you go phone and
> make sure it's GSM. Put
> That Sim in the NEO. And I made them use their money.
>

next stage Steve : your wife's test ;)



-- 
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Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: wiki help

[Steven Le Roux]

hmm okay it's not as easy as we wanted to do :)

here is an explanation :

| width="25%" rowspan="4" | Sample country
| width="25%" rowspan="3"| sample region #1
| width="25%" rowspan="2"| sample city
| width="25%" | sample buyer #1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber_Id
|-
| width="25%" | sample buyer #2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jabber_Id
|-
| width="25%" | sample city #2
| width="25%" | sample buyer #3 mail Jabber_Id
|-
| width="25%" | sample region #2
| width="25%" | sample city #3
| width="25%" | sample buyer #4 mail Jabber_Id


In a way, if your country already exist, so just do +1 to the "rowspan"
value in front of your country, and the same for your city if exists.

If your country doens't exist on the page, so add this :

|-
| width="25%" rowspan="1" | YourCountry
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| YourRegion
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| YourCity
| width="25%" | Shawn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jabber_Id if
you have one)
|-

where your country is alphabeticaly located. Or at the bottom and we will
correct it...

Note, it doesn't have to be two following " |- "

If you want to add a region, so +1 to the country rowspan, and after the :


|-
| width="25%" rowspan="2" | YourCountry
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| NOTYourRegion
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| NOTYourCity
| width="25%" | NOTShawn
|-
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| YourRegion
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| YourCity
| width="25%" | Shawn
|-

And it's almost the same with a same region but not the same city :

|-
| width="25%" rowspan="2" | YourCountry
| width="25%" rowspan="2"| YourRegion
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| NOTYourCity
| width="25%" | NOTShawn
|-
| width="25%" rowspan="1"| YourCity
| width="25%" | Shawn
|-

it has to be as much rowspan value than there is interested members by
location.

okay ?


On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Shawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey, does someone mind answering a wiki editing question for me (off list
> that is)?
>
> It's about editing tables, specifically the group sales page.
>
> thanks,
>
> . . .Shawn
>
> --
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.
>
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>
>


-- 
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Re: e-mail app on OM

[Bastian Muck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I´d like a tiny clone of Mozilla Thunderbird. I don't know, if it is 
realizeable or reasonable, but there might be best synchonization to 
other devices. Mozilla Thunderbird is available for different platforms, 
so there might be less problems with this.
There are many good mailclients, but Thunderbird is, of cause in my 
mind, the best. A problem might be a big overhead, but I have too less 
knowledge of the code.


Greetings Bastian

steve schrieb:
| We should probably have a MOST WANTED list of apps on the Wiki  
|

| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
| Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:06 PM
| To: List for Openmoko community discussion
| Subject: e-mail app on OM
|
| i've had a look through the projects page, and done a quick search on the
| wiki, and can't see an e-mail app anywhere. do OM have one planned, or is
| this something that will be left to the community? is anyone working on
| anything?
|
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD4DBQFIBrGVlYiDScJJ+7QRAtfBAJYsVPFhG3RYqik4gOKTINIy4d+OAJ4osRAr
OC5thP+/LYtSwTTOpWkfiQ==
=iHjC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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RE: e-mail app on OM

[steve]

We should probably have a MOST WANTED list of apps on the Wiki  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Paulson
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:06 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: e-mail app on OM

i've had a look through the projects page, and done a quick search on the
wiki, and can't see an e-mail app anywhere. do OM have one planned, or is
this something that will be left to the community? is anyone working on
anything?

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RE: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

Thanks Lon.

 Good comment. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lon Lentz
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:12 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

 For quite a while now I've been reading comments from people saying that
this issue or that issue is a "deal breaker". I've been reading hardware
requests and demands that stretch the gambit from quaint and interesting to
just down right silly. If this is the environment in which all FOSS is
developed, it's amazing we have a kernel to run it all on. I'm all about
presenting and discussing ideas. But the making of demands in this
environment is extreme.

 FIC and OM have come up with a hardware platform to meet a predetermined
need and market. If someone thinks some major item is missing, create a
competitor. Fork the hardware.

 In all fairness though, I think calling the release of the CAD files under
appreciated is a little premature. Accessories companies are going to wait
to see what the adoption of this phone will be like.
Then they will make business decisions about risk versus benefit. If the
phone does become "successful", that is moving enough units to make it
profitable for FIC and the accessories makers, we will see the CAD files be
put to use outside of hobbiests.



On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:07:18AM -0700, steve wrote:
>  > One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was 
> to enable  > others to seize these opportunities.
>  >
>  > So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has 
> even  > shipped. I think this decision is  > underappreciated.
>
>From reading this thread, I think you're right.

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RE: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

See what you think. The one issue might be that you have to use their design
Package ( a little funky) and I don't recall being able to get an data base
of your
Design files. So, it's a bit sketchy on the open philosophy side of things.
I havent been to their site in couple years, so lets check it out.

I'm headed up tommorrow. I have FreeRunners! 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Shiloh
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:45 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

I've never used emachineshop, but I will ask around. Perhaps some of my
friends have.

Michael

steve wrote:
> I love emachineshop.
> 
> I thought of approaching them to do some kinda co promotion. Maybe 
> Michael Shiloh can weigh in here.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:02 AM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT 
> update
> 
> For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com They 
> do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.
> 
> I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of 
> cases and then reselling them or not.
> 
> -Steven
> 
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank 
>> cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of 
>> making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and 
>> then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just 
>> selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no 
>> idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
>>
>>Hugo.
> 
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Re: wiki help

[geek]

I struggled with that myself last night.

goto the group sales table, click edit...look at Los Angeles and folow
pattern?

It you have specific Q , hit me back...

/matthew

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Shawn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey, does someone mind answering a wiki editing question for me (off list
> that is)?
>
> It's about editing tables, specifically the group sales page.
>
> thanks,
>
> . . .Shawn
>
> --
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
> now.
>
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>
>


-- 
-- Sex, Drugs & Linux

"How should I know if it works? That's what beta testers are for. I only
coded it." -- Linus Torvalds
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RE: HAPPY DANCE version .9. Teenagers stop fighting!

[steve]

 
I decided to do a test of sorts. I gave a phone to the boys and decided to
let them see if they could
Figure it out. I gave them 1 bit of info. Go buy a Pay as you go phone and
make sure it's GSM. Put
That Sim in the NEO. And I made them use their money. 

I also told them to make a you tube video. Then I said nothing else. They
went out to the stores
To get a pay as you go phone and to try to source a cable for the dang video
camera. They came back
And the cable for the video camera was the wrong one. I said nothing. We
opened the pay as you go
Phone. The plastic package was so thick I had two choices. Plasma torch or
garden shears. I chose the latter.

That's when the fight broke out between me and them. Who puts the simm card
in, etc etc?
"Dad you don't understand. Let us do it." So I did. They didn't want my damn
help and would not listen
To a fricken thing I said. I told them "fine dont screw it up."

About 10 minutes later my land line rings. Crap. Crap. crap. Who is calling
me now?

FreeRunner #98.

They will make a video later if  we can find a cable.  right now these boys
who never stop fighting are out having dinner together.

HA. Neo and world peace. I feel like miss america.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:26 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

steve wrote:
>  
> Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two 
> teenage boys.
> 
> Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.

If they break the hardware, is that a successful stress test?

Ian

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Lon Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  For quite a while now I've been reading comments from people saying
>  that this issue or that issue is a "deal breaker". I've been reading
>  hardware requests and demands that stretch the gambit from quaint and
>  interesting to just down right silly. If this is the environment in
>  which all FOSS is developed, it's amazing we have a kernel to run it
>  all on. I'm all about presenting and discussing ideas. But the making
>  of demands in this environment is extreme.

This is the same environment. You'll see the same divide between
"consumers" of software and "developers" of it. Community driven
development and thick skin go hand in hand.

>
>   FIC and OM have come up with a hardware platform to meet a
>  predetermined need and market. If someone thinks some major item is
>  missing, create a competitor. Fork the hardware.

Forking is a bad word in "open source" but it's the lifeblood of a
free market. :) I think the release of the CAD files was a pretty
clear indication that Openmoko wants to see, but doesn't want to be
the burden bearer, of customization and innovation in the hardware and
associated accessories.

There's NOTHING wrong with that. Before starting to look down and say
"You people complain too much" keep in mind that most people "voting
with their $currency" understand what's happening. Openmoko will get
my money without a pink/blue/red/green/cloaking case.

>
>   In all fairness though, I think calling the release of the CAD files
>  under appreciated is a little premature.

I think that's a fair assessment. Very few people really understand
the signifigance of that action. Motorola makes quite a bit of money
around their branded accessories and frankly, they're not always top
quality. The same can be said for many others. Openmoko is doing
hardware and software and community building... Let the community and
the fabricators and the entreprenuers do the accessories. I think
Openmoko has the potential to tap into the "Mac Cult" behavior that
Apple taps, though on a smaller scale at first.

I've already got my "bouncing guy in a spinning circle" windshiled
decals being die-cut, anyone want some? :P

> Accessories companies are
>  going to wait to see what the adoption of this phone will be like.
>  Then they will make business decisions about risk versus benefit. If
>  the phone does become "successful", that is moving enough units to
>  make it profitable for FIC and the accessories makers, we will see the
>  CAD files be put to use outside of hobbiests.

Absolutely. Something I really hope to see is companies like iGo (I
have to admit, I like their products!) adopt the "Openmoko Freerunner
compatible" sticker. For some of these manufacturers they can adopt
and "certify" a brand for a few man-hours and the price of a sticker.
They win as they sell sexy, glowing products and Openmoko wins as free
software based phones are adopted by the marketplace.

>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:07:18AM -0700, steve wrote:
>  >  > One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to 
> enable
>  >  > others to seize these opportunities.
>  >  >
>  >  > So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even
>  >  > shipped. I think this decision is
>  >  > underappreciated.
>  >
>  >From reading this thread, I think you're right.
>
>
>
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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Lorn Potter]

Jeff Tranter wrote:

Are there any plans to support Qtopia on the Neo FreeRunner GTA02?



yes.it already runs. needs work though, audio issues, etc.


--
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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Lorn Potter]

Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:

On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:53:13 Steven ** wrote:

I think you've got that a little backwards.  You should be asking the
Qtopia people if they plan to support the Freerunner.  I'm pretty
certain their answer will be yes, since it already works for GTA01 and
probably isn't too much effort to support GTA02.


Unfortunately that's not quite true. Due to the nature of the GTA02's graphics 
accelleration, Qtopia's framebuffer-centric paradigm shows problems.


what exact problem is that? Its only a tad slower than the gta01, and could be overcome with an 
accelerated graphics driver, just as X needs.





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Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech


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e-mail app on OM

[Robin Paulson]

i've had a look through the projects page, and done a quick search on
the wiki, and can't see an e-mail app anywhere. do OM have one
planned, or is this something that will be left to the community? is
anyone working on anything?

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Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com
>  They do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.

Oh that's awesome.  It has been years in coming (they promised it for
a long time).

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Lon Lentz]

 For quite a while now I've been reading comments from people saying
that this issue or that issue is a "deal breaker". I've been reading
hardware requests and demands that stretch the gambit from quaint and
interesting to just down right silly. If this is the environment in
which all FOSS is developed, it's amazing we have a kernel to run it
all on. I'm all about presenting and discussing ideas. But the making
of demands in this environment is extreme.

 FIC and OM have come up with a hardware platform to meet a
predetermined need and market. If someone thinks some major item is
missing, create a competitor. Fork the hardware.

 In all fairness though, I think calling the release of the CAD files
under appreciated is a little premature. Accessories companies are
going to wait to see what the adoption of this phone will be like.
Then they will make business decisions about risk versus benefit. If
the phone does become "successful", that is moving enough units to
make it profitable for FIC and the accessories makers, we will see the
CAD files be put to use outside of hobbiests.



On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:07:18AM -0700, steve wrote:
>  > One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to enable
>  > others to seize these opportunities.
>  >
>  > So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even
>  > shipped. I think this decision is
>  > underappreciated.
>
>From reading this thread, I think you're right.

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Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Michael Shiloh]

I've never used emachineshop, but I will ask around. Perhaps some of my 
friends have.


Michael

steve wrote:

I love emachineshop.

I thought of approaching them to do some kinda co promotion. Maybe Michael
Shiloh can weigh in here. 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:02 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com They do
injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.

I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of cases
and then reselling them or not.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank  
cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of  
making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and  
then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just  
selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no  
idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.


   Hugo.


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wiki help

[Shawn]

Hey, does someone mind answering a wiki editing question for me (off list that 
is)?

It's about editing tables, specifically the group sales page. 

thanks, 

. . .Shawn




  

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RE: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

Go for it. 

Let me know if I can help in any way. Off list. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip Stubbs
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:36 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion; Hugo Mills
Subject: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

On 16/04/2008, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>I have no experience at all in manufacturing -- my closest moment  
> came when I did some work on production scheduling in a flour mill --  
> but I still thought it was worth finding out what it would cost to do  
> it. I doubt that I'll have the capital, drive or time to bring this  
> idea to fruition, but I might as well see what's involved...

Hugo,

I do happen to know a bit about this sort of thing. I know a guy in HK that
owns a tool maker and mold shop in China. I have had a few products that I
have designed made by him, and he is very good. If you have asked UK based
companies this question, I expect you may see a delay as they are all at a
show in Telford this week [1]. The guy in HK will probable be a lot cheaper,
and also quicker with the tooling.
The part prices may be a bit higher to account for the shipping.

Let me know if you want his details off list.

Regards,
--
Philip Stubbs

[1] http://www.pdmevent.com/

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Re: OpenMoko application software

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 4/16/08, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is there a mail list devoted to application software and
> related user interface issues for OpenMoko?


According to http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ you should check
out *openmoko-devel*

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Philip Stubbs]

On 16/04/2008, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>I have no experience at all in manufacturing -- my closest moment
>  came when I did some work on production scheduling in a flour mill --
>  but I still thought it was worth finding out what it would cost to do
>  it. I doubt that I'll have the capital, drive or time to bring this
>  idea to fruition, but I might as well see what's involved...

Hugo,

I do happen to know a bit about this sort of thing. I know a guy in HK
that owns a tool maker and mold shop in China. I have had a few
products that I have designed made by him, and he is very good. If you
have asked UK based companies this question, I expect you may see a
delay as they are all at a show in Telford this week [1]. The guy in
HK will probable be a lot cheaper, and also quicker with the tooling.
The part prices may be a bit higher to account for the shipping.

Let me know if you want his details off list.

Regards,
-- 
Philip Stubbs

[1] http://www.pdmevent.com/

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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Ian Darwin]

steve wrote:
 
Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two teenage
boys. 


Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.


If they break the hardware, is that a successful stress test?

Ian

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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Tilman Baumann]

Kevin Dean wrote:


 With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless
they say ok.


This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology
that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the
carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot
non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology
but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement.


With CDMA it is (or at least was) common policy.
No so with GSM. Any provider which would do this would go out of 
business soon.
It screws Roaming and it screws the open phone marked. (Open marked not 
open phone ;) )



Just my 2 Eurocent
 Tilman

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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Steven Le Roux]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:40 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  First question was can I play WOW on it.
>
>
Answer could be : yes ! code it :)


> I slap my head so hard I have no wrinkles in my forehead anymore.
>
> better than Botox.
>
>  --
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Steven Le Roux
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:56 AM
> *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion
> *Subject:* Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9
>
> So it appears to be the destructive test ;)
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:41 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two
> > teenage
> > boys.
> >
> > Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ___
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>
>


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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

Wednesday 16 April 2008 skrev Jeff Tranter:
> Are there any plans to support Qtopia on the Neo FreeRunner GTA02?

  There's a press release somewhere that the Trolls suggest using the 
Freerunner - this of course happened the same time as the GreenPhone sold 
out :) In short: They need a generic target, and the Freerunner is it :)

-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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OpenMoko application software

[Ron K. Jeffries]

Is there a mail list devoted to application software and
related user interface issues for OpenMoko?

If not, could we please start one?

putting on my flame proof suit:

community@lists.openmoko.org
(with all-too-rare exceptions)
has devolved into almost AOL level blather about
mundane stuff that has nothing to do with how
users will USE the Freerunner.

I am looking for intelligent life where people
discuss the existing or new user applications
that will be enabled by an open source "libre"
 phone such as OpenMoku and the COMMUNITY
that will (we hope) develop to support it.

while  have the podium, this list is one where
a lot of users fail to trim excess garbage in their
REPLY emails. Please, try to conserve a few electrons,
a few Gigabytes of disk space, and most importantly,
the time of the (thousands?) of folks who
follow this list.

be well

-- 
Ron K. Jeffries
http://blog.eronj.com
http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
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RE: next costumers location

[steve]

There are differences. See the CAD files I cannot recall off the top of my
noggin what they are. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brandon Kruger
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:19 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: next costumers location

On Wed April 16 2008 2:30:04 pm AVee wrote:
> On Monday 14 April 2008 01:13, steve wrote:
> >A. We killed the orange colored phone. May it rest in peace.
>
> *snif*
> I will now forever (or at least the rest of the day) regret not buying 
> a GTA01.
>
> AVee

Are the GTA01 and GTA02 cases the same?  If so, some lucky orange Neo1973
owners could sell some rare orange freerunner cases on ebay!

--

Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://onedollarlinux.com
BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Brandon Kruger]

On Wed April 16 2008 12:41:03 pm steve wrote:
> Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two teenage
> boys.
>
> Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

Did I mention I'm up for adoption? :P

-- 

Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://onedollarlinux.com
BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/

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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[michael]

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, Kevin Dean wrote:


On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Steven ** wrote:




This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new
verizon account.


I'm assuming that it's POSSIBLE (how often it happens is irrelevant)
to make a device that COULD work on both Sprint or Verizon if their
policies permitted it using CDMA technology. If CDMA isn't compatible
with itself, it's not a single standard.



Quick technical note - it's certainly possible and probably happens 
fairly
often. CDMA phones are locked much the same way GSM phones are, with a "master
code". If you frustrate tech. support enough at Sprint or Verizon they'll
eventually give you that code and then you can move it between carriers (this
happened quite a bit when the treo 700p was released as a sprint-only device,
for instance).


As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.



 You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM.


I believe I read just a few days ago "You can have any color you want, 
as
long as it's black." Personally I'm a CDMA user (Sprint) because their data is
faster and a *lot* cheaper. I don't hold out any hope of a CDMA Neo, though,
for the reasons Kevin keeps mentioning - with all its flaws (personal opinion,
of course) GSM has a strong political push behind it and CDMA does not, so
you can use GSM almost anywhere in the world making it the perfect target
market. The switch to 4G (by which I mean WiMax, WiBro and LTE) may change 
that but I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime I have a prepaid SIM

from AT&T and I'm counting the days until the neo's advantages make me switch
permanently.

- Michael

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Hugo Mills]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:07:18AM -0700, steve wrote:
> One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to enable
> others to seize these opportunities.
>  
> So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even
> shipped. I think this decision is
> underappreciated.

   From reading this thread, I think you're right.

> The per piece cost of plastic is small.  Go price a pound of plastic. The
> risk is tooling. We reduced that
> by making CAD data open.
> 
> Long LONG ago, you had to pay big set up fees to Print a document. That has
> come down over time.
>  
>  I want to enable a world were you can print parts. Trust me, I am not happy
> when I tell people
> that they cant get pink. If you want pink, you should get pink.  

   I thought exactly the same thing. All these people whinging (sorry
if anyone takes offence, but that's how it came across to me) about
not having different colours, but not realising that *they* could do
their own colours.

   I have no experience at all in manufacturing -- my closest moment
came when I did some work on production scheduling in a flour mill --
but I still thought it was worth finding out what it would cost to do
it. I doubt that I'll have the capital, drive or time to bring this
idea to fruition, but I might as well see what's involved...

> That doesnt entail that I should build pink. I enable people to make it pink
> by publishing CAD files.

   It's much appreciated. Even if I don't know what to do with
it. Yet. :)

> If you think pink, then I'll sell you the electronics that go under those
> pink platistics

   I like either green, or funky patterns. Pink may be a way down the
list if you're buying from carfax.org.uk. :)

>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neil Davey
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:18 AM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update
> 
> 
> >From the involvement I've had with injection molding the costs of material
> (ie the plastic) per piece it not very expensive, it's the mold tool that is
> the expensive part.. For one project I'm involved in I think the mold tool
> was something like $10KUSD.. This is a production quality (read high
> quality) tool... I have heard of cheaper tools out of china I think (like a
> few $K), but don't think the quality is as good..

   This is the kind of thing I was expecting -- for even an optimistic
(say) 1000 pieces on that kind of pricing, it'd be, say, $12 apiece
plus P&P (or $22 if it's $10k per mould -- front and back). That's
going to be UKP 6-11, or E 8-14. How much do other phone covers go
for? (I'm not really familiar with this sort of thing).

   Hugo.

-- 
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
  PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steven ** wrote:
>
> > I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
> > CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).  The
> > GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
> > would be no different.
> >
> >
>  Actually the situation here IS very different, because of that
> interchangability.  With a GSM phone, its the SIM that allows you on the
> network.  You can (theoretically at least), go down to the T-Mobile store
> and get their bottom-of-the-line 20$ phone, then take it home and put the
> SIM into your neo, with T-Mobile being none the wiser.


I have a SIM from my old T-Mobile phone in my Neo. They DO know it's
not that phone, but they chose to let me on the network anyway. On the
flip side, the iPhone is a GSM phone but (without hacking) it's unable
to be used off the network it was locked to. Even off "big ticket"
items like the iPhone, a lot of GSM phones are shipped with firmware
that prevents it from being used on other networks. In the USA cell
carriers subsidize the purchase of the handset and use the firmware to
incentivize purchasing phones with more features (like SMS or
internet, which they charge for if you utilize).

This situation, IMO, is irrelevant because it's essentially saying
"Any compatible technology used on a provider that lets you use your
phone there works" which is true with both CDMA and GSM. It's the
larger potential pool of devices that ARE compatible, and the larger
pool of providers that DO allow it. Assuming all carriers had similar
policies, and CDMA was the most popular technology, I'd not say the
technology was closed.

It is the mobile ecosystem, viewed worldwide, that would mean less
choice on a CDMA device, not the CDMA technology itself.



>  With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless
> they say ok.

This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology
that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the
carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot
non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology
but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement.

> This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new
> verizon account.

I'm assuming that it's POSSIBLE (how often it happens is irrelevant)
to make a device that COULD work on both Sprint or Verizon if their
policies permitted it using CDMA technology. If CDMA isn't compatible
with itself, it's not a single standard.

> If I switch back to sprint, my verizon phone won't work
> anymore.  If openmoko was CDMA but sprint and verizon decide they don't like
> the openness of the openmoko phones, you're SOL.

If T-Mobile in the USA decided not to allow non-Tmobile phones on
their network you'd be JUST as SOL. This is a policy issue and not a
technology one.

>  GSM gives the users choice
> as to what phone they want to run, and takes that choice away from the
> carrier.
>
>
>
> > As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
> > conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
> > show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
> > odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.
> >
> >
>  You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM.
>
>
>  ___
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>

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Re: next costumers location

[Brandon Kruger]

On Wed April 16 2008 2:30:04 pm AVee wrote:
> On Monday 14 April 2008 01:13, steve wrote:
> >A. We killed the orange colored phone. May it rest in peace.
>
> *snif*
> I will now forever (or at least the rest of the day) regret not buying a
> GTA01.
>
> AVee

Are the GTA01 and GTA02 cases the same?  If so, some lucky orange Neo1973 
owners could sell some rare orange freerunner cases on ebay!

-- 

Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://onedollarlinux.com
BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html


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Re: Re:Wrong Mini-USB-Jack

[Alexey Feldgendler]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:38:11 +0200, Joe Pfeiffer  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Will Freerunner be OTG?  NEO could do either host or device, but
didn't follow OTG spec to do it.


OTG requires USB 2.0, which Neo doesn't support.


--
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Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[Timo Jyrinki]

2008/4/15, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Space reasons. I've been told that most phones use 2,5mm today for that 
> reason.

Not very true nowadays. I think 3,5mm should really be considered for
the next product. Most new phones intended to be also music devices
all have 3,5mm.

That said, having 2,5mm->3,5mm adapter attached to the output will do
for now, with GTA02.

-Timo

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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Ben Burdette]

Steven ** wrote:

I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).  The
GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
would be no different.
  
Actually the situation here IS very different, because of that 
interchangability.  With a GSM phone, its the SIM that allows you on the 
network.  You can (theoretically at least), go down to the T-Mobile 
store and get their bottom-of-the-line 20$ phone, then take it home and 
put the SIM into your neo, with T-Mobile being none the wiser. 

With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network 
unless they say ok.  This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on 
my new verizon account.  If I switch back to sprint, my verizon phone 
won't work anymore.  If openmoko was CDMA but sprint and verizon decide 
they don't like the openness of the openmoko phones, you're SOL.  GSM 
gives the users choice as to what phone they want to run, and takes that 
choice away from the carrier.



As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.
  
You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on 
GSM.  


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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Peter Kraker]

Lorry Potter from Trolltech is doing that.

Jeff Tranter pravi:

Are there any plans to support Qtopia on the Neo FreeRunner GTA02?

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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
>  CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).

Stop thinking in terms of the technology itself and think in terms of
a userbase. In the majority of the world, a CDMA phone would be a
restriction on the number of carriers you can use and where. In the
US, it's Sprint and Verizon (and even that is only true short term).
There are some Japanese carriers that are also CDMA. Everywhere else
uses GSM. GSM is in every European market, and there are a LOT of
potential customers in Europe.

Openmoko is about openness, not just about "open source". Even the
model being used to sell the devices tries to break away from the "Go
to your carrier's store and buy the device to use on their network"
paradigm. Buy your phone, powered by Free Software, and pick any of
the carriers who use the most common cellular technology on the
planet.


>  The
>  GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
>  would be no different.

Even if that doesn't work for you, it's a dumb investment to NOT aim
for the largest market possible. By making a CDMA-based phone,
Openmoko only captures a small percentage of the total number of
worldwide cellular users. As a fledgling brand it isn't feasible to
make BOTH a CDMA and a GSM based product in a debut offering - the
expense is too high with the unknown to big a variable.

>
>  As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
>  conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
>  show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
>  odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.

Lack of choice is the #1 complaint Verizon got from their customers.
"Verizon Exclusive" phones that they couldn't use off the Verizon
network. Phones they owned from their other carrier that couldn't be
used on Verizon.

Because of this market pressure, Verizon is switching their networks
to GSM so that they can seamlessly compete with GSM providers (which
is the majority of the market). It's in the interest of Verizon AND
the customers to standardize on a single set of technology and GSM is
that standard. It is possible that by the time Verizon's GSM network
is up (2009, from what I heard) the Freerunner will be "mass market".
In that case, the only network that it won't work on is Sprint's. You
can debate over who is exactly at fault in that situation; all the
handset makers worldwide or Sprint.

>
>  -Steven
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions,
>  >  CDMA isn't used much.
>  >
>  >  Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network
>  >  "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the
>  >  near future.
>  >
>  >  Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network
>  >  doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven **
>  >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >  > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
>  >  >  Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
>  >  >  cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
>  >  >  Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
>  >  >  friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
>  >  >  wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
>  >  >  Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
>  >  >  at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
>  >  >  (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
>  >  >  fee).
>  >  >
>  >  >  So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
>  >  >  that'd about double your sales in the US.
>  >  >
>  >  >  -Steven
>  >  >
>  >  >  ___
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>  >  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >  >
>  >
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>
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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:53:13 Steven ** wrote:
> I think you've got that a little backwards.  You should be asking the
> Qtopia people if they plan to support the Freerunner.  I'm pretty
> certain their answer will be yes, since it already works for GTA01 and
> probably isn't too much effort to support GTA02.

Unfortunately that's not quite true. Due to the nature of the GTA02's graphics 
accelleration, Qtopia's framebuffer-centric paradigm shows problems.
Fear not though, just check the openmoko-devel archives and read 
Holger 'Zecke' Freythers Qtopia-on-X11-on-GTA02 progress mails.

:M:

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RE: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[steve]

 Hey, it's been a while and there is no blood.  
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:15 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

Is that supposed to stress the phone?  Or you?  ;-)

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:41 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two 
> teenage  boys.
>
>  Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
>

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Re: openmoko roadmap

[Kevin Dean]

Speaking realistically, it's impossible for Openmoko to reveal that
information and no have it hurt sales, for EXACTLY the reason you
mentioned. As a support (and Neo1973 owner) I debated with this
myself. Why pay for a phone today when I KNOW the "newer" model is
around the corner?

At the same time, Openmoko walked right into this since NOT revealing
this is going to levy charges of "You're not being open like you said
you would."

Frankly, I want a phone powered by Free Software. If Openmoko needs to
conceal future product plans to ensure that, so be it.

In a little bit of a less "objective" based answer and a more "reality
based" answer:

Openmoko Inc. is a "young" company. So far they've not released their
debut product to the market they intend to. In a very real way, how
well Freerunner does will deterime what, if ANYTHING, happens to
future products that Openmoko kicks out. If they make 100x more units
than they sell, there won't BE a "next time".

Simple, concise and efficient answer: If you want a GTA03, buy a
GTA02. Failure to do so is failure to ensure there will be a future
model.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:20:44 Peter Abplanalp wrote:
>  > with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the
>  > roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones.  i'm an advanced
>  > linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform
>  > and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not
>  > seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still
>  > an "advanced user" phone.  does anyone at openmoko know when we might
>  > expect the next phone after the freerunner?  if it is going to be more than
>  > a year or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone
>  > would be a year or less away, i may wait.
>
>  I don't think Om Inc. will take the risk of repeating the potential Osborne
>  effect. Last time it already did enough damage.
>
>  :M:
>
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Re: openmoko roadmap

[Steven **]

Well, what do you intend to do on your phone?

Lacking further information, I'd say you being "an advanced linux
user" makes you a prime candidate for a Neo.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Peter Abplanalp
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi all,
>
> with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the
> roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones.  i'm an advanced
> linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform
> and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not
> seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still an
> "advanced user" phone.  does anyone at openmoko know when we might expect
> the next phone after the freerunner?  if it is going to be more than a year
> or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone would be a
> year or less away, i may wait.
>
> any thoughts?
>
> --
> Peter Abplanalp
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RE: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

Well, you actualy have to design the case to allow painting.
 
Paint has THICKNESS. So if you look at the clearence for buttons, you would
have one clearence
for a non painted plastic and a bigger clearence for a painted plastic part.
 
I have made this mistake before, when I wanted to change colors at the last
minute and the painted plastic
parts didnt exactly provide the types of clearences ( etc) that you need.
All that said, there are parts on FR
that could be painted without ruining fit and function.  The back cover,
and front cover
 
The middle part which houses the UBS, ext ant, etc etc, is the part I would
worry about painting, because
of the clearence problem for the connectors and buttons that are brought out
through that plane of the device. 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Le Roux
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:04 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update


Hmm in this goal, why not Openmoko.com to sell "blank" case, non finished
ones, witout any painting, just to be customized/adapted later ?

I don't think only with painting, but integrate an eye cam or other
expansion pack, or wifi external connectors for example...

Even one water proof why not :) 



On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 > wrote:


For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com
They do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.

I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of
cases and then reselling them or not.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank
>  cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of
>  making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and
>  then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just
>  selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no
>  idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
>
>Hugo.

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Re: Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Steven **]

I think you've got that a little backwards.  You should be asking the
Qtopia people if they plan to support the Freerunner.  I'm pretty
certain their answer will be yes, since it already works for GTA01 and
probably isn't too much effort to support GTA02.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Jeff Tranter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are there any plans to support Qtopia on the Neo FreeRunner GTA02?
>
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Steven **]

I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).  The
GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
would be no different.

As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions,
>  CDMA isn't used much.
>
>  Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network
>  "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the
>  near future.
>
>  Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network
>  doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project.
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven **
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
>  >  Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
>  >  cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
>  >  Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
>  >  friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
>  >  wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
>  >  Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
>  >  at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
>  >  (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
>  >  fee).
>  >
>  >  So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
>  >  that'd about double your sales in the US.
>  >
>  >  -Steven
>  >
>  >  ___
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>  >
>
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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Matt Manjos]

Introduce them to the wonders of MUD gaming from a telnet session
launched out of bash. Either that, or has nethack been ported to OM
yet???

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:40 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> First question was can I play WOW on it.
>
> I slap my head so hard I have no wrinkles in my forehead anymore.
>
> better than Botox.
>
>  
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Le Roux
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:56 AM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9
>
>
>
> So it appears to be the destructive test ;)
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:41 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two
> teenage
> > boys.
> >
> > Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Stop talking about hardware!

[Matt Manjos]

Hehe yeah no hard feelings. I was just being a smartass about people
making their own injection molded cases.

I agree that there have been a lot of people talking here, as well as
on the wiki (see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware
), about hardware dreams that are very very VERY unlikely to happen.

Lately, the hardware-to-software discussion ratio has tipped a little
too much in favor of the former, but I anticipate a complete, sudden
turnaround overnight once the first GTA02's get into the hands of
software devs. In the first month after the Freerunner is shipped,
some people may be complaining that we're not talking about future
hardware enough anymore!

Matt

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt Manjos wrote:
>
> > I guess people could get it airbrushed if it was a matte plastic case,
> > maybe shipped with primer already painted on it.
> >
> > Seems like a lot of work, but it would really fit well with the whole
> > customization thing.
> >
> > Maybe FIC could start selling DIY at-home plastic injection molding kits,
> too ;)
> >
>
>  Yea right.
>  As if it would not be hard enough to get the phone selling. :)
>
>  Come one people. You you need anything in hardware, then make it
> yourselves!
>  Openmoko is piggybacking on a existing design at Fic. They can and will not
> change this any more.
>
>  If alternative cases are such a good idea. Why can't i buy one now?
>
>  If you think it is reasonable to ask Fic to do it, then first ask
> yourselves; Can you make a business on it?
>  Then you will see that a bunch of crazy hackers is not a big marked. And
> hardware is expensive to fabricate.
>  We can be lucky that Fic recognises us as customers with certain needs. And
> they make a good job in meeting them.
>
>  As i understood, Fic is in the last testing phases for the hardware. They
> and we can be happy if they even make it nearly to the planned deadline.
>  So please. Can we all stop asking for hardware changes if we don't
> absolutely want to make themselves?
>  I have seen so much hot air regarding this. I can not longer hear it!
>
>  If you want to change something, take the initiative.
>  Or put you effort into the software, it needs it. Really!
>
>  PS: Sorry Matt. I know it was only sarcasm. I just needed to get this off
> my chest before i burst even harder. I could not longer bear to hear pipe
> dreams about hardware.
>  Hardware makes (almost?) 90% of the discussions here and it is the only
> thing where we had very limited freedom for change from the beginning and
> even less now since the device is almost ready for mass fabrication.
>
>  Regards
>   Tilman
>
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Re: openmoko roadmap

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:20:44 Peter Abplanalp wrote:
> with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the
> roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones.  i'm an advanced
> linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform
> and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not
> seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still
> an "advanced user" phone.  does anyone at openmoko know when we might
> expect the next phone after the freerunner?  if it is going to be more than
> a year or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone
> would be a year or less away, i may wait.

I don't think Om Inc. will take the risk of repeating the potential Osborne 
effect. Last time it already did enough damage.

:M:

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Qtopia on Neo FreeRunner?

[Jeff Tranter]

Are there any plans to support Qtopia on the Neo FreeRunner GTA02?

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RE: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[steve]

First question was can I play WOW on it.
 
I slap my head so hard I have no wrinkles in my forehead anymore.
 
better than Botox.

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Le Roux
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:56 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9


So it appears to be the destructive test ;)


On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:41 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two teenage
boys.

Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.







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RE: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[steve]

I have not decided on the final package contents Joerg.

When I do, I will let people know. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:35 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

32 Ohm pretty much is standard. Neo comes with standard headset.

For really god sound (with bass) you'll need a high Imp (= much Ohm)
headset. 
Up to 800 Ohm. More Ohm = more bass, up to 800 Ohm.

cheers
jOERG

Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
> Soo
> 32 Ohm is okey?
> How rare is they?
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
> > Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
> >   
> >> Perhaps that.
> >> But I want to listen to music with other thing then the headset 
> >> that follows.
> >> I know I need a 8Ohms headset to use it on the NEO But is 8 ohm soo 
> >> commen?
> >>
> >> Alexander Frøyseth
> >> 
> >
> > Nope, you should go for a 800 Ohm headset, which really isn't that 
> > common
at 
> > all.
> > GTA02 will ship with a 32 Ohm anyway... :-/
> >
> > cheers
> > jOERG
> >
> >
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> 
> 



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Re: next costumers location

[AVee]

On Monday 14 April 2008 01:13, steve wrote:
>
>A. We killed the orange colored phone. May it rest in peace.

*snif*
I will now forever (or at least the rest of the day) regret not buying a 
GTA01. 

AVee

-- 
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openmoko roadmap

[Peter Abplanalp]

hi all,

with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the
roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones.  i'm an advanced
linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform
and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not
seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still an
"advanced user" phone.  does anyone at openmoko know when we might expect
the next phone after the freerunner?  if it is going to be more than a year
or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone would be a
year or less away, i may wait.

any thoughts?

-- 
Peter Abplanalp
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions,
CDMA isn't used much.

Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network
"soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the
near future.

Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network
doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
>  Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
>  cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
>  Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
>  friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
>  wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
>  Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
>  at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
>  (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
>  fee).
>
>  So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
>  that'd about double your sales in the US.
>
>  -Steven
>
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3G? What about CDMA?

[Steven **]

I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
(and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
fee).

So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
that'd about double your sales in the US.

-Steven

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RE: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

I love emachineshop.

I thought of approaching them to do some kinda co promotion. Maybe Michael
Shiloh can weigh in here. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven **
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:02 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com They do
injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.

I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of cases
and then reselling them or not.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank  
> cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of  
> making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and  
> then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just  
> selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no  
> idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
>
>Hugo.

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RE: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

This is EXACTLY why we freed the CAD files 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugo Mills
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:58 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:09PM +0200, Peter Kraker wrote:
> Someone with a knack for business should simply grab those CAD files 
> and start manufacturing replacement cases in gazillion different colors.

   I thought the same. So I've picked an injection moulding firm more or
less at random, and asked them about the costs and processes involved --
just to see what it would take to do.

   Hugo.

--
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
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--- Great oxymorons of the world, no. 2: Common Sense ---


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Ringtones and ringing volume

[Ivo Anjo]

Hi.

I was wondering: how is the volume of the freerunner speaker? Currently I
like being able to hear my falling-apart nokia from rooms away. And is the
speaker any good for vorbis/mp3/etc ringtones, or do those get too distorted
or not loud enough?

Can anyone that has the hardware comment on this?

Thanks,
Ivo Anjo
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Stop talking about hardware!

[Tilman Baumann]

Matt Manjos wrote:

I guess people could get it airbrushed if it was a matte plastic case,
maybe shipped with primer already painted on it.

Seems like a lot of work, but it would really fit well with the whole
customization thing.

Maybe FIC could start selling DIY at-home plastic injection molding kits, too ;)


Yea right.
As if it would not be hard enough to get the phone selling. :)

Come one people. You you need anything in hardware, then make it yourselves!
Openmoko is piggybacking on a existing design at Fic. They can and will 
not change this any more.


If alternative cases are such a good idea. Why can't i buy one now?

If you think it is reasonable to ask Fic to do it, then first ask 
yourselves; Can you make a business on it?
Then you will see that a bunch of crazy hackers is not a big marked. And 
hardware is expensive to fabricate.
We can be lucky that Fic recognises us as customers with certain needs. 
And they make a good job in meeting them.


As i understood, Fic is in the last testing phases for the hardware. 
They and we can be happy if they even make it nearly to the planned 
deadline.
So please. Can we all stop asking for hardware changes if we don't 
absolutely want to make themselves?

I have seen so much hot air regarding this. I can not longer hear it!

If you want to change something, take the initiative.
Or put you effort into the software, it needs it. Really!

PS: Sorry Matt. I know it was only sarcasm. I just needed to get this 
off my chest before i burst even harder. I could not longer bear to hear 
pipe dreams about hardware.
Hardware makes (almost?) 90% of the discussions here and it is the only 
thing where we had very limited freedom for change from the beginning 
and even less now since the device is almost ready for mass fabrication.


Regards
 Tilman

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Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[joerg]

> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
> > > GTA02 will ship with a 32 Ohm anyway... :-/
Sorry, that's to say: "GTA01 was shipping with a 32R headset".
Probably GTA02 will be shipping with much of the accessories trade in for nice 
price - see recent discussion on this.

cheers
jOERG

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Michele Renda]

steve wrote:
One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to 
enable others to seize these opportunities.
So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even 
shipped. I think this decision is

underappreciated.
The per piece cost of plastic is small.  Go price a pound of plastic. 
The risk is tooling. We reduced that

by making CAD data open.
Long LONG ago, you had to pay big set up fees to Print a document. 
That has come down over time.
 I want to enable a world were you can print parts. Trust me, I am not 
happy when I tell people

that they cant get pink. If you want pink, you should get pink.
That doesnt entail that I should build pink. I enable people to make 
it pink by publishing CAD files.
If you think pink, then I'll sell you the electronics that go under 
those pink platistics



One of the reasons because I will buy a Freerunner is this openess there 
is in this project. Accondig me it is a so new thing that a lot of 
person don't understand what it mean.

It is a new market, and a realy new street for an hardware producer.

I hope that in the future people will understand the value of this choice :)

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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Steven **]

Is that supposed to stress the phone?  Or you?  ;-)

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:41 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two teenage
>  boys.
>
>  Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
>

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RE: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[steve]

One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to enable
others to seize these opportunities.
 
So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even
shipped. I think this decision is
underappreciated.
 
The per piece cost of plastic is small.  Go price a pound of plastic. The
risk is tooling. We reduced that
by making CAD data open.
 
Long LONG ago, you had to pay big set up fees to Print a document. That has
come down over time.
 
 I want to enable a world were you can print parts. Trust me, I am not happy
when I tell people
that they cant get pink. If you want pink, you should get pink.  
 
That doesnt entail that I should build pink. I enable people to make it pink
by publishing CAD files.
 
If you think pink, then I'll sell you the electronics that go under those
pink platistics
 
 
  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neil Davey
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:18 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update


>From the involvement I've had with injection molding the costs of material
(ie the plastic) per piece it not very expensive, it's the mold tool that is
the expensive part.. For one project I'm involved in I think the mold tool
was something like $10KUSD.. This is a production quality (read high
quality) tool... I have heard of cheaper tools out of china I think (like a
few $K), but don't think the quality is as good..

Just my 2c

Regards
Neil Davey

Hugo Mills wrote: 

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:09PM +0200, Peter Kraker wrote:

  

Someone with a knack for business should simply grab those CAD files and 

start manufacturing replacement cases in gazillion different colors.





   I thought the same. So I've picked an injection moulding firm more

or less at random, and asked them about the costs and processes

involved -- just to see what it would take to do.



   Hugo.



  


  _  


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Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Matt Manjos]

I guess people could get it airbrushed if it was a matte plastic case,
maybe shipped with primer already painted on it.

Seems like a lot of work, but it would really fit well with the whole
customization thing.

Maybe FIC could start selling DIY at-home plastic injection molding kits, too ;)

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm in this goal, why not Openmoko.com to sell "blank" case, non finished
> ones, witout any painting, just to be customized/adapted later ?
>
> I don't think only with painting, but integrate an eye cam or other
> expansion pack, or wifi external connectors for example...
>
> Even one water proof why not :)
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Steven **
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com
> > They do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.
> >
> > I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of
> > cases and then reselling them or not.
> >
> > -Steven
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank
> > >  cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of
> > >  making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and
> > >  then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just
> > >  selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no
> > >  idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
> > >
> > >Hugo.
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Steven Le Roux]

Hmm in this goal, why not Openmoko.com to sell "blank" case, non finished
ones, witout any painting, just to be customized/adapted later ?

I don't think only with painting, but integrate an eye cam or other
expansion pack, or wifi external connectors for example...

Even one water proof why not :)


On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Steven ** <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:

> For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com
> They do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.
>
> I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of
> cases and then reselling them or not.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank
> >  cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of
> >  making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and
> >  then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just
> >  selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no
> >  idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
> >
> >Hugo.
>
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Re: HAPPY DANCE version .9

[Steven Le Roux]

So it appears to be the destructive test ;)

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 6:41 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two
> teenage
> boys.
>
> Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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HAPPY DANCE version .9

[steve]

 
Dhl delivered  goodies today. I gave one to my kids. One phone. Two teenage
boys. 

Stress testing. They fighting over it. Ha.







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Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[joerg]

32 Ohm pretty much is standard. Neo comes with standard headset.

For really god sound (with bass) you'll need a high Imp (= much Ohm) headset. 
Up to 800 Ohm. More Ohm = more bass, up to 800 Ohm.

cheers
jOERG

Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
> Soo
> 32 Ohm is okey?
> How rare is they?
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
> > Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
> >   
> >> Perhaps that.
> >> But I want to listen to music with other thing then the headset that 
> >> follows.
> >> I know I need a 8Ohms headset to use it on the NEO
> >> But is 8 ohm soo commen?
> >>
> >> Alexander Frøyseth
> >> 
> >
> > Nope, you should go for a 800 Ohm headset, which really isn't that common 
at 
> > all.
> > GTA02 will ship with a 32 Ohm anyway... :-/
> >
> > cheers
> > jOERG 
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >   
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> 



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Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[Alexander Frøyseth]

Soo
32 Ohm is okey?
How rare is they?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:

Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
  

Perhaps that.
But I want to listen to music with other thing then the headset that 
follows.

I know I need a 8Ohms headset to use it on the NEO
But is 8 ohm soo commen?

Alexander Frøyseth



Nope, you should go for a 800 Ohm headset, which really isn't that common at 
all.

GTA02 will ship with a 32 Ohm anyway... :-/

cheers
jOERG 



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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Neil Davey]

>From the involvement I've had with injection molding the costs of
material (ie the plastic) per piece it not very expensive, it's the
mold tool that is the expensive part.. For one project I'm involved in
I think the mold tool was something like $10KUSD.. This is a production
quality (read high quality) tool... I have heard of cheaper tools out
of china I think (like a few $K), but don't think the quality is as
good..

Just my 2c

Regards
Neil Davey

Hugo Mills wrote:

  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:09PM +0200, Peter Kraker wrote:
  
  
Someone with a knack for business should simply grab those CAD files and 
start manufacturing replacement cases in gazillion different colors.

  
  
   I thought the same. So I've picked an injection moulding firm more
or less at random, and asked them about the costs and processes
involved -- just to see what it would take to do.

   Hugo.

  
  

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Re: Mini jack 2.5mm?

[joerg]

Am Mi  16. April 2008 schrieb Alexander Frøyseth:
> Perhaps that.
> But I want to listen to music with other thing then the headset that 
> follows.
> I know I need a 8Ohms headset to use it on the NEO
> But is 8 ohm soo commen?
> 
> Alexander Frøyseth

Nope, you should go for a 800 Ohm headset, which really isn't that common at 
all.
GTA02 will ship with a 32 Ohm anyway... :-/

cheers
jOERG 


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Re: End User Input....and Question

[Lowell Higley]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:15 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The hardware is complete. But I assume that if hardware bugs are discovered,
it will be considered to fix them before the consumer release (depending on
the bug). Since all the software isn't ready yet, I guess it is impossible
to be 100% sure there are no bugs. But remember, they did a lot of testing,
so I guess the hardware is good.


There will be bugs.  I spent three years in hardware continuation
engineering and there were always bugs.  Most of them not a big deal.  I do
have to say this.  FIC used to be the vendor of our PC mainboards (when we
branded our own PCs) and they were always responsive once we detailed the
bug to them.  Sometimes it was a firmware fix, sometimes we had to modify
the mainboards (very rare).  The bottom line is there will most likely be
hardware bugs but I have great confidence that they will be appropriately
addressed by the Neo Team and FIC.
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Lowell Higley]

Spare the case plastics (create an orderable part number) and have a "Trick
out your Neo" contest.  Grand prize?  An autographed photo of the Neo Team!
Or perhaps the remains of a Neo after the "destructive tests".  If I could
buy an extra case for around US$20 to $30, I'd probably give it a whirl.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:05 AM, David Samblas Martinez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hey
> there is nothing more dearly than a happy developer
> dancing after a successfull test. :)
>
> Regarding colors, maybe in the massmarket phase being
> able to customice your case as a lot of comercial
> moviles will be a plus to fashion victims ( My female
> work college has his laptop, movile phone and mp3 all
> in hello-kitty pink!!!) but in this stage of the
> process where developers are the target, no matter
> what case neo has, meanwhile it do the job of protect
> their precious inner electronics.
>
> I not agree with the stiker solutions because is
> matter of time than the stiker become ugly rubbished
> and the hole phone become  stiky.
>
> The paint-it-yourself solution if you find a
> combination of case material//markers really permanet
> will be an original and great feature. sure there are
> some aerograph artist within us than can make very
> cool designs.
>
>
>
>
> --- ramsesoriginal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> escribió:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:49 PM, steve
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >  what you guys actually want to see me dance?
> >
> > Oh hm... YES! xD
> >
> > and also some of my female (and even male) friends
> > asked about
> > coloring: the preferred ones:
> > -red
> > -pink (yes, really)
> > -blue
> > -kiwi-green
> >
> > --
> > My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org
> >
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Colored cases, etc - Was Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Steven **]

For the one off, you could check out http://www.emachineshop.com
They do injection molding of various plastics in "many" colors.

I'm not sure if you could make a profit by having them make a ton of
cases and then reselling them or not.

-Steven

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 5:22 AM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank
>  cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of
>  making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and
>  then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just
>  selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no
>  idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.
>
>Hugo.

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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Hugo Mills]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 06:32:09PM +0200, Peter Kraker wrote:
> Someone with a knack for business should simply grab those CAD files and 
> start manufacturing replacement cases in gazillion different colors.

   I thought the same. So I've picked an injection moulding firm more
or less at random, and asked them about the costs and processes
involved -- just to see what it would take to do.

   Hugo.

-- 
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===
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Peter Kraker]

Someone with a knack for business should simply grab those CAD files and 
start manufacturing replacement cases in gazillion different colors.


Bastian Muck pravi:
What about colored stickers? I think it could be cheap to design and 
cut them to fit at the neo. I guess this could be a solution to many 
whishes for special colors. But this feature could be sold by a 
thirdparty-shop. And I guess, that it would be early enough to sell 
them when the massproduction begins. There wont be many female 
developers i think.


ramsesoriginal schrieb:
| On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:49 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|>
|>  what you guys actually want to see me dance?
|
| Oh hm... YES! xD
|
| and also some of my female (and even male) friends asked about
| coloring: the preferred ones:
| -red
| -pink (yes, really)
| -blue
| -kiwi-green
|



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RE: oredring the Freerunner as an research item

[McCreery, Lee CTR DISA]

Not that I have the any correct legal answers, but in a past life I
worked for a research medical company that shipped equipment from the US
to the EU(Germany) as "Research".  Yes, it did reduce the headache of
customs, cost, taxes, etc. If I remember correctly, the product that was
labeled as "Research" had to have an "EXIT DATE" (I think 1 yr MAX) as
to when it would be shipped back to the country of origin.  If it was
not proven to have been shipped out of the receiving country by that
date, the person that received the product had hell to pay.

Just my 2C, if I remember correctly :?


Can't wait to meet everyone walking down the street via GPS for the "OM
High-Five".  Anyone around Pensacola FL?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
ramsesoriginal
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 2:28 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: oredring the Freerunner as an research item

As far as I know, this holds true for many countries. I used to work
in a logistic/marketing/other stuff buisness, and in many places
labeling transportations as "research item" was a good idea (but it
has to be, in some way, related to research, because it gets
controlled)

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
>  On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 7:53 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > i'll look into it, but this country by country selective processing
is
>  > defeating the purpose.
>
>  If this is valid for other countries, perhaps such a letter / note
>  could be added to every 10 pack you send out?
>  (If the same letter / note can be used for all cases, of course)
>  Granted, I don't know how much overhead in packaging this would
incur.
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Torfinn Ingolfsen
>  Norway
>
>
>
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Re: Data over normal GSM call

[Harald Welte]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:17:19AM +0200, Stefano Cavallari wrote:
> On Monday 14 April 2008 21:00:34 Harald Welte wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 07:57:02PM -0500, Hans L wrote:
> [...]
> > AFAIR, the DTMF key press is encoded and send over the Um (air)
> > interface to the BTS/BSC/MSC and then in the end converted into
> > actual audible sounds.
> >
> > Please see Page 22 of http://www.chu.edu.tw/~lhyen/wc/gsm.pdf for a
> > graphical illustration how this works.
> 
> This imply that there is a data channel available. Can you trasmit anything 
> else that DTMF? What is the bandwidth of this channel?

no, there is no data channel.  The START/STOP DTMF messages are part of
the layer 3 signalling messages (sent over a signalling channel that is
also used for call setup/teardown).

also, that signalling channel is between the MSC and the telephone.


-- 
- Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://openmoko.org/

Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone


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Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Carlo E. Prelz]

Subject: Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway
Date: Wed 16 Apr 08 04:21:40PM +0200

Quoting Edwin Lock ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> Yes, people in Europa can buy from TRIsoft (maybe also 10-pack, it's best to
> mail TRIsoft about this).

But there were voices that FIC was about to set up a european
distribution center. They should be able to sell us a phone for the
equivalent of US$399 plus any tax and shipping (hopefully, clearly
itemized). 

Today, US$399 = 252.22€ (www.oanda.com)

I vaguely remember reading that it was found out that setting up a EU
hub was found to be not that practical (although I did not read
details).

If a EU hub does not exist by the time the phone is available for
sale, I plan to buy directly from Taiwan. I hope I will be allowed to
do that. They should charge my credit card at the day's rate, and I
would then probably have to pay import duties and VAT.

Carlo

-- 
  * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
  *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)

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Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Steven Le Roux]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Edwin Lock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, people in Europa can buy from TRIsoft (maybe also 10-pack, it's best
> to mail TRIsoft about this).
> Next time please check the TRIsoft website, it tells you the price(350
> Euro + shipping).
> www.trisoft.de/openmoko
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Alexander Frøyseth <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hei
> > I have heard that only people from Asia and US can buy from OpenMoko
> > And that people fra Europe have to buy from trisoft.
> >
> > The problem here is that trisoft is selling it for 399€
> >
> > I do NOT know if this is true or correct
> >
> > Is this true?
> >
> >
>
As said in another mail, maybe the solution to mark as "research item"
during some month could be a good option to take off some taxes...?

-- 
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Roland Häder]

350 EURO + 5 EURO for shipping and handling to me as a german citizen. They 
are from Germany so I don't know if they sell to Norway as well and under the 
same conditions. So maybe higher S&H price. :/

Order together with many people as you can get. And yes, get their money 
first... ;-)

Roland

On Wednesday, 16. April 2008, Alexander Frøyseth wrote:
> Hei
> I have heard that only people from Asia and US can buy from OpenMoko
> And that people fra Europe have to buy from trisoft.
>
> The problem here is that trisoft is selling it for 399€
>
> I do NOT know if this is true or correct
>
> Is this true?


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Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Edwin Lock]

Yes, people in Europa can buy from TRIsoft (maybe also 10-pack, it's best to
mail TRIsoft about this).
Next time please check the TRIsoft website, it tells you the price(350 Euro
+ shipping).
www.trisoft.de/openmoko



On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Alexander Frøyseth <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hei
> I have heard that only people from Asia and US can buy from OpenMoko
> And that people fra Europe have to buy from trisoft.
>
> The problem here is that trisoft is selling it for 399€
>
> I do NOT know if this is true or correct
>
> Is this true?
>
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Re: Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Dirk Deimeke]

Hi,

> The problem here is that trisoft is selling it for 399€

There was a correction to 350 EUR. If you live outside EU, you don't have
to pay the taxes (19%), so it comes to ca. 295 EUR, but you have to pay the
taxes in your country.

Dirk


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Buy the Neo fra Norway

[Alexander Frøyseth]

Hei
I have heard that only people from Asia and US can buy from OpenMoko
And that people fra Europe have to buy from trisoft.

The problem here is that trisoft is selling it for 399€

I do NOT know if this is true or correct

Is this true?

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Re: End User Input....and Question

[Christ van Willegen]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Rune Gangstø <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How hard is it to upgrade software version yourself?
IT shoudn't be too hard, and I expect that tools and documentation
will be made available for Windows, Mac and Linux users.

> Is it like this version is complete, but software isn't? or is the hardware
> to be changed when the end user version is ready?
The hardware is definitive (except if a real showstopper is found
_now_, although I think we're past that point already). The software
isn't, and probably won't be for a long time. This is not a negative
comment, but software is never 'finished'. It will probably be
'finished enough' to enable daily phone use (make/receive call,
send/receive SMS, some phonebook functionality). Lots of people will
probably invest more time on developing for the FreeRunner if they
have the real hardware in their sweaty hands (I know I will (or at
least try :-) )).

Christ van Willegen
-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Re: End User Input....and Question

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 4/16/08, Rune Gangstø <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm a bit interested in buying this now, but I don't know if it's a good
> idea.
>
> How hard is it to upgrade software version yourself?
> Is it like this version is complete, but software isn't? or is the
> hardware to be changed when the end user version is ready?
>
> >
>
> I will try to answer, but I cannot garantee that I am correct.
The hardware is complete. But I assume that if hardware bugs are discovered,
it will be considered to fix them before the consumer release (depending on
the bug). Since all the software isn't ready yet, I guess it is impossible
to be 100% sure there are no bugs. But remember, they did a lot of testing,
so I guess the hardware is good.

The software should be easy to update. You can install/upgrade/uninstall
programs on the phone with opkg. It should also be relative simple to
download a new image and flash the phone. It is documented in the wiki.

-- 
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Re: End User Input....and Question

[Rune Gangstø]

I'm a bit interested in buying this now, but I don't know if it's a good
idea.

How hard is it to upgrade software version yourself?
Is it like this version is complete, but software isn't? or is the hardware
to be changed when the end user version is ready?

Rune Gangstø


2008/4/16, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> > I have 5 cell phones that need to be recycledwhat a waste.
> >
> >
>
> Find dev-kits for them and build apps with them ..
>
> ;
> --
> Jay Vaughan
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Hugo Mills]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 12:05:10PM +0200, David Samblas Martinez wrote:
> Regarding colors, maybe in the massmarket phase being
> able to customice your case as a lot of comercial
> moviles will be a plus to fashion victims ( My female
> work college has his laptop, movile phone and mp3 all
> in hello-kitty pink!!!) but in this stage of the
> process where developers are the target, no matter
> what case neo has, meanwhile it do the job of protect
> their precious inner electronics.
> 
> I not agree with the stiker solutions because is
> matter of time than the stiker become ugly rubbished
> and the hole phone become  stiky.
> 
> The paint-it-yourself solution if you find a
> combination of case material//markers really permanet
> will be an original and great feature. sure there are
> some aerograph artist within us than can make very
> cool designs.

   Maybe there's someone out there with the know-how to make blank
cases based on the published OM designs? I'd guess it's a matter of
making suitable injection-moulded components -- front and back -- and
then either ringing the changes with the plastic colour used, or just
selling white ones that can then be painted and lacquered.  I have no
idea of the economics of injection moulding, though.

   Hugo.

-- 
=== Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk 
===
  PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk
--- Modern medicine does not treat causes:  headaches are not ---
   caused by a paracetamol deficiency.   


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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[David Samblas Martinez]

Hey 
there is nothing more dearly than a happy developer
dancing after a successfull test. :)

Regarding colors, maybe in the massmarket phase being
able to customice your case as a lot of comercial
moviles will be a plus to fashion victims ( My female
work college has his laptop, movile phone and mp3 all
in hello-kitty pink!!!) but in this stage of the
process where developers are the target, no matter
what case neo has, meanwhile it do the job of protect
their precious inner electronics.

I not agree with the stiker solutions because is
matter of time than the stiker become ugly rubbished
and the hole phone become  stiky.

The paint-it-yourself solution if you find a
combination of case material//markers really permanet
will be an original and great feature. sure there are
some aerograph artist within us than can make very
cool designs.

 

 
--- ramsesoriginal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
escribió:

> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:49 PM, steve
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  what you guys actually want to see me dance?
> 
> Oh hm... YES! xD
> 
> and also some of my female (and even male) friends
> asked about
> coloring: the preferred ones:
> -red
> -pink (yes, really)
> -blue
> -kiwi-green
> 
> -- 
> My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org
> 
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Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA 03?

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 4/16/08, Justyn Butler
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
>
> On 15/04/2008, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  QWERTY keyboards and appropriate cases are, I believe, produced
> >  already, and can be subcontracted. There is no surprise in a QWERTY
> >  keyboard.
> >
> >  There was also FIC's plan to produce *a number* of devices, based on
> >  the hardware that is currently being finalized. I hope that one of
> >  them will be a device with a real keyboard, and I think it appropriate
> >  for me to show that there is support for such a device.
>
> It would be great to see the next generation of Openmoko hardware fork
> into two devices to help satisfy the more opposing types of
> requirements from the community.
>
> One could perhaps be as small as possible, and lower cost. The other
> might go for extra features like a keyboard, camera, two sim cards
> etc.


I assume they don't want to redesign the whole layout. I understood that
implementing dual sim support would be too much work, because it is not as
trivial as I thought. A keypad would result in a lot of case design issues.
I think camera + 3G would be doable and I would be happy with that.
And maybe also an IR transmitter (so we can use it as an remote control) and
other stuff like a thermistor would be easy to implement. I will add this to
my neo when I get it:)
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Re: PVT Update.

[Federico Lorenzi]

Maybe if we send Steve a blender... :)

On 4/15/08, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:17 AM, Mark Arvidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, but will it blend?
> >
>
> Ahah :)
>
> for those who didn't get it... : http://www.willitblend.com/
>
>
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
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> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

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Re: PVT Update.

[Steven Le Roux]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:17 AM, Mark Arvidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, but will it blend?
>

Ahah :)

for those who didn't get it... : http://www.willitblend.com/


>
>
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3D and auto-config.

[François TOURDE]

Hi,

Here is an article (in french, sorry):
  http://www.macbidouille.com/news/2008-04-12/#16175

about a very simple phone (one button: Call an operator, or Call
emergency), with 2 good functionnalities:

Phone on the desktop -> Speaker on
On the desktop, reversed -> Vibrator mode

That can be a good idea, no?

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Re: End User Input....and Question

[Jay Vaughan]

I have 5 cell phones that need to be recycledwhat a waste.




Find dev-kits for them and build apps with them ..

;
--
Jay Vaughan





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Official distributor list

[Andy Powell]

Can we please have a list of the official distributors for the Freerunner.


-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat

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