Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Carlo E. Prelz
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
Date: lun 19 mag 08 11:10:50 -0600

Quoting Travis Tabbal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have
  C++/QT versions running on my phone.
 
 I really don't understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and
 gets the job done, why does it matter what language it's written in or what
 widget toolkit it uses? I could see not wanting a closed app on OM, but it
 sounds like there is source available. 

There are two levels here. One is the ethically-justified desire to
run open software. The other one is the concrete possibility to dig
into the code and actually adapt the operativity of the code to your
specific needs. 

The first level is clearly satisfied.

With regards to the second one, things differ from person to
person. For most of its life, the openmoko project has been based on C
and GTK, which I happen to be reasonably versed in. The switch to QT
*requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
personally find unsuitable for use. 

 Or, you could pick up the older GTK apps and finish them up. It sounds like
 the shipping apps are a placeholder to get a nice working phone for shipping
 Freerunner. It's an open platform, so switch them out if you want the other
 ones. Or improve the new ones. Or write new ones from scratch in Ruby.
 Whatever. :)

This could come to be true, given enough free time. Nevertheless,
there is a big difference between having the core applications of a
phone maintained and updated by Openmoko and having to depend on my
scarce free time or other voluntary work for the same core apps.

Later on, if I read that the GTK apps are usable, I may eventually
decide to buy the phone. I just wanted to let Openmoko know that it is
because of this switch (which I only learned about yesterday) that I
won't be an early adopter.

Carlo

-- 
  * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
  *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

2008-05-20 Thread Lalo Martins
Also spracht Shachar Shemesh (Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300):
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 indeed. but most of the world does use languages that for display
 purposes are 1 glyph per letter and happily drawn left to right.
 
 Do remind me how many people live in China. Last time I checked,
 traditional Chinese would not accept left to right input, nor simple key
 presses, nor went below a sixth of the world's population.

Which proves Raster right... Chinese is 1 glyph per letter and drawn 
left to right.  Yes, typing it is not done with simple key presses, 
but Raster didn't ever claim that on his email.

Very traditional Chinese used to be written bottom-to-top, right-to-
left; but that hasn't been the case for a lng time.

Then you go on about Japan... again, 1 glyph per letter and drawn left 
to right.  Your argument talks about Kanji and typing, and neither of 
these are ever addressed in Raster's message.

So, to the best of my knowledge, EFL is ready enough for CJK, and as 
such, OpenMoko is ready enough for most of the markets it will be 
initially launched on.  If you're part of the tiny exception, feel free 
to submit patches.

best,
   Lalo Martins
-- 
  So many of our dreams at first seem impossible,
   then they seem improbable, and then, when we
   summon the will, they soon become inevitable.
   -
  http://lalomartins.info/
GNU: never give up freedom  http://www.gnu.org/


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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

2008-05-20 Thread Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano

Rod Whitby ha scritto:

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:
Well, I much appreciate your work and your openness with community, 
unfortunately I can't say the same about Openmoko in this occasion 
since this should be an Open company and so I'd have appreciated it 
more if the decision would have been debated before with developers 
and active part of community (= people writing code) in public lists.


I guess the question is whether Openmoko Inc. ever promised that the 
contents of the rootfs for the phone that they sell will be determined 
by some sort of community consensus.


If I remember correctly, they only promised to provide an open software 
platform upon which *you* can create your own personalised rootfs.  By 
including both toolkits, they have not changed anything you experience 
with respect to this promise.


Well it's open and it's Free (not gratis), so what's up? If OM decided 
that this is the way they like so no problem, you prefer a python 
environment (me too) and you prefer the use of GTK or any other toolkit 
no problem, you've got the kernel, you've got the other various 
software, you've got the old sources so if you want it you can develop 
it, noone is stopping you from do that, you can also put up a community 
or a company to do that, it's a choice that you and OM can freely take.
Obviously if this decision influences some of the project that are 
developed it will be better to inform the community and may be consult 
it to see what people think but i really like the idea of an open phone, 
you may also put the old os onto one partition and the other one on 
another and having them in dual boot, decide which is better and then 
use it, why not?
It's a solution to have a usable phone with the hardware that is going 
to be shipped.


Obviously IMHO.

Pietro

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

2008-05-20 Thread Piotr Duda

if this is a management decision, this means to me that this is a business
decision, so there is no place for community here IMHO, unless openmoko
wants to know community opinion...

all we can ask is to keep us updated with such important changes...


Marco Trevisan (Treviño) pisze:
[...]
I know and I appreciate it... I'd just like more if they would have a 
better communication with us and with 3rd party developers (anyway this 
is an old issue)!


Sometimes it seems we've just rumors like on closed companies!
I do love this project, I believe on it and I'll support with no 
hesitations, but I think that some things should be improved!




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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

2008-05-20 Thread Marc Bantle

Hi,

Piotr Duda wrote:

all we can ask is to keep us updated with such important changes...


i followed this thread for a while and couldn't reproduce the
emotional twist it did in between.

I appreciate Openmoko's decision to deliver an X-based qtopia
(I still curious how it will perform in comparison with the
fb-based qtopia) and efl-based core applications, I can
understand the disappointment rising from the way this
decision was 'communicated'.

I would have preferred reading a community announcement
by Michael Shilo (who btw. seemed to be surprised by the
decision himself) over reading it between the lines of
statements given by core developers or third party sources.

I am aware that communicating decisions still is a challenging
task and can easily leave some parties disaffected, once an
organization has reached a certain size. So, no flame here.

Cheers, Marc

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Joseph Reeves
I've just booted it for the first time, can't really say anything
about it yet, but the boot screen is perfect for me as an
Archaeologist :)

Joseph



On 19/05/2008, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have been using a FreeRunner for a few days with a pre-pre-alpha
  snapshot of the ASU software. For those who have been off-list for a
  while, or who have not been looking at the Wiki much, the April
  Software Update switches the Window Manager from matchbox to
  Enlightenment (E17) and the main applications from the GTK-based apps
  (developed by OpenMoko and OpenedHand) to QTopia (but using X11, of
 course).

  The new phone is in the same case, so it looks and feels a lot like a
  GTA01. I think the partition numbers for dfu-util have changed; newer
  versions of dfu-util allow you to use the partition names instead of the
  numbers. Beware.

  The Home Page (aka Launcher) can now be displayed either in an Icon Grid
  (conventional cell phone style, e.g., Blackberry, and the traditional
  QTopia format) or a slider style (the latter demonstrated by MokoNinja
  here:
 http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf
 (flash
  required).

  The small home/current-apps menu has been replaced by a larger
  slide-down top panel, listing the current apps, and containing the time,
  battery panel, GSM on/off, qwerty keyboard on/off, Configuration, and
  the Enlightenment menu.

  Neither of the above is, AFAIK, cast in stone.

  I must admit I have mixed feelings about the switch from OM/GTK apps to
  QTopia. However, I recognize the need to get something finished in a
  reasonable time and I infer Sean et al felt the need to go this way;
  in hindsight, building the whole thing from scratch is a daunting task,
  and something that QTopia has been honing for several years.

  The QTopia apps do have a somewhat more conventional cell phone
  feel to them (see my screenshot of the Contacts Overview page here:
  http://www.darwinsys.com/tmp/contacts1.png).

  So, I think we're in good hands here. On to the experience.

  Short form: functionally, it works.  Among other things, the phone wakes
  up reliably on incoming rings (assuming it's booted and suspended, of
  course), and GSM voice works after a resume.

  There are still some minor glitches. I hope I'm not out of line
  reporting these here, given how pre-pre my software is, but Steve has
  been asking me to report on this list since my FreeRunner arrived. I
  remind everybody reading this to remember that this is PRE-PRE-RELEASE
 software. None of this intended as criticism of those who worked under time
 deadline to make this early release ready for the show I was presenting OM
 at!  Nonetheless these are things that I would not like to have fall through
 the cracks.

  1) Incoming calls do wake up the phone, but by the time the dialer
  appears on screen, several rings have gone by, and, by the time you
  press Answer and get it recognized, the screen hasn't responded, the
  Answer button changes to Hangup, so if you double-clicked it, you can
  easily hang up on your caller without intending to.

  2) The ASU software features a qwerty-keyboard. It is switchable between
  alphabetics and numerics; unfortunately the gesture  needed to do this
  (a triangle drawn counter-clockwise from lower left) is a bit hard to
  get right; hopefully there will be a  button to switch this. As well,
  the current version of ASU uses QTopia's input manager, offering what
  looks like a predictive style but is  actually doing a dictionary
  lookup; I find this very distracting compared to a plain do-what-I-type
  keyboard, and would welcome an easy way to turn this off (I thought
  Lorne Potter posted this once, but I couldn't find it).

  3) It's easy to accidentally start an application (thus slowing down
  what you're trying to really do) while scrolling the home screen in icon
  grid mode.

  4) The Preferences that are in the top slide-down panel's Wrench icon
  should presumably be merged with the Preferences App.

  5) The shutdown dialog does not have a cancel or Back button.
  And, it often doesn't actually shutdown.

  All for now. Again, please remember that this is very early access.
  And don't let my nit-picking distract you from the fact that it's
  looking good for something that was merged only a few weeks ago!

  Ian Darwin




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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Travis Tabbal
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The switch to QT
 *requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
 personally find unsuitable for use.



QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various classes
to get GUI widgets. I really don't see why someone that knows C would have a
problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating compared to Java,
C#, Python, etc.. But it's far from unsuitable for use. I can write both
good and bad code in most any language. And there is nothing saying you have
to write your apps in C++. Whatever, it's your money and your time, do what
you want with it. I just find it an odd thing to be so irritated about.
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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Ben Burdette

Travis Tabbal wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


The switch to QT
*requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
personally find unsuitable for use.



QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various 
classes to get GUI widgets. I really don't see why someone that knows 
C would have a problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating 
compared to Java, C#, Python, etc.. But it's far from unsuitable for 
use. I can write both good and bad code in most any language. And 
there is nothing saying you have to write your apps in C++. Whatever, 
it's your money and your time, do what you want with it. I just find 
it an odd thing to be so irritated about.


C++ is difficult to link against, so that limits the languages that you 
can use for development.  For instance, D has a hard time with linking 
to C++ (or did last I checked).  C, on the other hand is far simpler to 
link to.  That's why many standard APIs use C interfaces - OpenGL for 
instance. 


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list etiquette (was: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Ian Darwin

liwei wrote:

On 一, 2008-05-19 at 16:27 -0700, Mike Montour wrote:

Ian Darwin wrote:

Thanks for posting your review. Perhaps you (or another Freerunner user) 
can answer a few more questions:


How good is the audio quality when having a GSM voice conversation with 
another person? Can the other caller hear you clearly without being 
distracted by an echo of their own voice (as happens on at least some 
GTA01s, mine included)? Is the Neo's speaker volume loud enough for you 
to hear the other caller in the presence of noise (e.g. outside on a 
sidewalk)?



i agree with Darwin,my phone has above problem.The other caller hear my
voic is very small.i must speak very loudly.i want to know this problem 
be caused by hareware or by software?


well, you can't be agreeing with me (Ian Darwin) because I didn't say 
anything on this issue. Please be careful that you attribute quoted 
material to the correct sender.


Also, from this time forward, it is necessary when posing any problem 
like this, to state whether you have a GTA01 or a GTA02, and, what 
version of the software you are using.


To answer Mike's question, my GTA02 with early ASU software, does not 
seem to have this problem, based on a few calls.


I can't speak to liwei's question (hw vs sw).

Cheers
Ian Darwin

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Chris Wright
2008/5/20 Ben Burdette [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Travis Tabbal wrote:
 C++ is difficult to link against, so that limits the languages that you can
 use for development.  For instance, D has a hard time with linking to C++
 (or did last I checked).  C, on the other hand is far simpler to link to.
  That's why many standard APIs use C interfaces - OpenGL for instance.

Recent versions of dmd can link against C++ code compiled with dmc,
but it's a bit unreliable, from what I've heard. And D has *extremely
good* support for linking with C++, compared with other languages.

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List Eqituette (was: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Ian Darwin
Not to single out one or two posters because they might not be the ones 
who started this:::



The switch to QT
*requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
personally find unsuitable for use.

QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various 
classes to get GUI widgets. I really don't see why someone that knows C 
would have a problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating 
compared to Java, C#, Python, etc.. 


Please change the subject line when you hijack a thread from 
impressions of a software release to programming language flame war.


Thank you.

Ian Darwin (OP of the ASU Software impressions thread)

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Vincent
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:snip

 I can write both good and bad code in most any language.snip


Really? Try writing good code in whitespace [1] or most of [2] :P

Anyway, regarding the app icons: perhaps it's possible to move those that
are used most often to the top automatically?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_programming_terms
-- 
Vincent
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Languages (Was: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Travis Tabbal
I did say most. :) There are a number of programming languages that almost
seem to have been designed to be difficult to write well formed code in. I
try to avoid them, and usually succeed. I won't get into details as that's a
little too far off topic and everyone has their own opinions on such things
that are no more or less valid than my own. :)

I like your idea about the app icons.


On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:snip

 I can write both good and bad code in most any language.snip


 Really? Try writing good code in whitespace [1] or most of [2] :P

 Anyway, regarding the app icons: perhaps it's possible to move those that
 are used most often to the top automatically?

 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
 [2]
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_programming_terms
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RE: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Crane, Matthew

I've noticed that with GSM calls in general there is sometimes an echo.  It can 
be very pronouced or barely noticable.  It may be hw or sw, but it may not have 
anything to do with either caller's phone.

If it doesn't happen consistently and is not reproducable, it's likely the 
network.  IMHO.

Matt

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of liwei
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 9:22 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions


On 一, 2008-05-19 at 16:27 -0700, Mike Montour wrote:
 Ian Darwin wrote:
 
 Thanks for posting your review. Perhaps you (or another Freerunner user) 
 can answer a few more questions:
 
 How good is the audio quality when having a GSM voice conversation with 
 another person? Can the other caller hear you clearly without being 
 distracted by an echo of their own voice (as happens on at least some 
 GTA01s, mine included)? Is the Neo's speaker volume loud enough for you 
 to hear the other caller in the presence of noise (e.g. outside on a 
 sidewalk)?
 
 
 
i agree with Darwin,my phone has above problem.The other caller hear my
voic is very small.i must speak very loudly.i want to know this problem 
be caused by hareware or by software?



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Re: Languages (Was: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Tim Shannon
The app icon idea should be optional, I know I personally have a tendency to
remember locations of icons.  If the icon list is updated constantly with
the most accessed programs, then I might inadvertently select one program
thinking another should really be in that location.  I think this is more
common in a phone with a smaller screen, then on a computer where icons are
much more visible.

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I did say most. :) There are a number of programming languages that
 almost seem to have been designed to be difficult to write well formed code
 in. I try to avoid them, and usually succeed. I won't get into details as
 that's a little too far off topic and everyone has their own opinions on
 such things that are no more or less valid than my own. :)

 I like your idea about the app icons.


 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Travis Tabbal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:snip

 I can write both good and bad code in most any language.snip


 Really? Try writing good code in whitespace [1] or most of [2] :P

 Anyway, regarding the app icons: perhaps it's possible to move those that
 are used most often to the top automatically?

 [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
 [2]
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language#Esoteric_programming_terms



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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Jeremy Miller
Speaking of needing a sharp nail or the stylus to type easily on the
keypad does that mean there is no support for turning the freerunner on its
side and the keyboard flipping and enlarging, like say the iphone does?
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Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Carlo E. Prelz
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions
Date: mar 20 mag 08 08:21:06 -0600

Quoting Travis Tabbal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  The switch to QT
  *requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
  personally find unsuitable for use.
 
 QT is C++, but you can write your code in C and just use the various classes
 to get GUI widgets. 

Funny way to define the concept. I must disagree: if you use the various 
classes
you write C++. 

 I really don't see why someone that knows C would have a
 problem with C++. I find some aspects of C++ irritating compared to Java,
 C#, Python, etc.. But it's far from unsuitable for use. I can write both
 good and bad code in most any language. And there is nothing saying you have
 to write your apps in C++. 

Subjectively (for me), it is unsuitable for use.

I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to
remember). C and Ruby are my current tools. I know from multiple
personal attempts that C++ goes severely against my mental engrams. My
ability to pay my bills depends on how smoothly and effectively these
engrams operate. I cannot allow them to get disrupted.

My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into
the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of
those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or
whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with CGTK main
apps. On the other hand, I would find C++QT main apps closed boxes (I
perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the
OM).

 I just find it an odd thing to be so irritated about.

I do not know how you received the idea that I was irritated. I am
only a bit disappointed (after waiting for this project to produce its
fruit for all these years), and I wanted to let Openmoko know that
they have lost at least one (early-adopting) client by operating the
switch to QT. 

Later, if I find that the original OM core code works to satisfaction,
I may decide to buy the phone just the same.

Carlo

-- 
  * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe
  *   di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

2008-05-20 Thread Michael Shiloh



Marc Bantle wrote:

...
I am aware that communicating decisions still is a challenging
task and can easily leave some parties disaffected, once an
organization has reached a certain size. So, no flame here.
...


Marc,

Very well put. I think this is the best way to read these events. No 
intentional hiding of facts, no secret decisions. Just simply how can 
we make this work in the least amount of time with the greatest chance 
of success.


Communication is always a difficulty in any organization, and we are 
very spread out geographically. Additionally, we have an extremely 
strong policy of conducting as much of our communication as possible on 
the public lists. As a result you will sometimes learn of things at the 
same time that we Openmoko employees do.


This is a feature of our openness policy, and not a bug in our 
communication policy.


Michael

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Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen
Tuesday 20 May 2008 skrev Carlo E. Prelz:
snipsnipsnip
 I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to
 remember). C and Ruby are my current tools.

  Well... Why not use the Qt bindings for Ruby, then?  
http://rubyforge.org/projects/korundum/

  (also, i might make the note, that while C++ itself might give you a 
headache, using Qt is really rather different from using pure C++, but as 
you're so very experienced, i suspect you already know this :) )

-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Bastian Muck

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ian Darwin schrieb:
| I'd still very much like to see a way to turn it off, so it works the 
same for letters as for numbers. It's annoying 90% of the time because 
most of the person or street names I need to enter into Contacts are not 
going to be listed.  I promise not to write my next 850-page book on my 
Neo, so word lookup is of limited use.  I suspect that Contacts, Todo 
and Calendar is the most common use case for most people, and that 
writing normal text is the least common for most people.
I think I will write further more SMS than saving contacts. And the 
texts in calendar are not this long, at least in mine.


Greetings Bastian
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Re: Barometric altimeter on 'future' Freerunner ?

2008-05-20 Thread Ortwin Regel
I can see exotic applications for this but certainly not enough to put
it into the phone. If you need it, add it via USB host, that's what
we've got it for. (Same is true for the railgun. ;) )

Ortwin

On 5/18/08, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 17 May 2008, at 22:17, Philippe Guillebert wrote:
 Matthias Schulze wrote:
 I am wondering about applications possible with the Freerunner
 (connected via usb) or later phone models, if a barometric altimeter
 would be included.

 Hi,

 Err, doesn't GPS give us a pretty accurate altitude already ?

 lol.

 No.

 Event if the precision is something like +/- 20 meters, I believe
 it's got a better accuracy than a barometric altimeter that you've
 got to calibrate to the meteorological conditions all the time.

 GPS altitude precision is more like +/- 200 metres. Even cheap
 electronic altimeters are accurate to a few feet. That they need
 daily calibration makes them only of use to people who actually
 _need_ to know their height - an altimeter built into a digital
 watch, for instance, is usually no more than a gimmick, but a hang-
 glider pilot can simply hold down the zero button on his £100
 altimeter for 3 seconds and then knows his height accurately for the
 duration of the day's flying.

 Stroller.

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Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Travis Tabbal
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:


   Well... Why not use the Qt bindings for Ruby, then?
 http://rubyforge.org/projects/korundum/



Very cool. I've been thinking I might need a Ruby project for a while now. I
might have to give that library a try when I get some time to set up an OM
dev environment. C++ is far from my favorite language as well. :)

Personally, I'd like to see work continue on the old GTK apps, I like the
look of them better than the QTopia apps from the screenshots I've seen so
far. Not that either one is bad really, just preference. I'm sure there are
plenty of people that like the new apps better as well. The joy of
community. :)
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Re: Accellerometer spin

2008-05-20 Thread Ortwin Regel
The problem is the same as with linear acceleration: You get an
increasing deviation over time.

Ortwin

On 5/18/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Instead of adding a compass to the device to be able to read spin about the
 gravitational axis, would it not be easier to offset one of the
 accellerometers from the centre of the device?

 That way, the roll is uneffected and the yaw and pitch can be calculated by
 accounting for the known offset in the equ.

 Just a thought
 Sent from my BlackBerry(R) wireless handheld

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Re: Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Travis Tabbal
 Funny way to define the concept. I must disagree: if you use the various 
 classes
 you write C++.

Fair enough. I have seen plenty of C code using C++ objects that I
didn't think of as real C++ code. It felt more like Obj-C to me, but
again, to each their own.

 Subjectively (for me), it is unsuitable for use.

 I write code as a job (have been doing that for longer than I wish to
 remember). C and Ruby are my current tools. I know from multiple
 personal attempts that C++ goes severely against my mental engrams. My
 ability to pay my bills depends on how smoothly and effectively these
 engrams operate. I cannot allow them to get disrupted.

 My complaint is that it would be difficult for me to put my hands into
 the default apps. They are C++, QT, and expectedly using enough of
 those creepy C++-isms (possibly, even those yecchy templates or
 whereabouts). I would be comfortable with tinkering with CGTK main
 apps. On the other hand, I would find C++QT main apps closed boxes (I
 perfectly know that I could very well write C/Ruby new code on the
 OM).

Fair enough. We all think in different ways so I can see what you're
getting at. I personally don't find C++ all that bad to grok once I
get into it a little, but if we were all like me the world would be a
boring place. :)

 I do not know how you received the idea that I was irritated.

Emotion + Email = Misinterpretation

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were getting at. Best wishes
whatever your decision on the phone, I certainly don't make any money
if you buy one. :) Just curious what you found so wrong about the
change, and you kindly explained it to me. Thanks. :)

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Ian Darwin
Speaking of needing a sharp nail or the stylus to type easily on the
keypad does that mean there is no support for turning the freerunner
on its side and the keyboard flipping and enlarging, like say the
iphone does?

The one has nothing to do with the other.

This portrait/landscape was in the pre-ASU software; there is no
gui control to enable it yet in ASU, but E17 almost certainly
supports it, so we can hope that the apps will again support it.

Ian Darwin

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Re: My Openmoko blog is aimed at helping Freerunner users get started

2008-05-20 Thread Lorn Potter
On Tuesday 20 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Michael Shiloh wrote:
  I've just posted about the software update that has been discussed here
  today, so I figured I'd take this opportunity to tell you all about my
  blog:

 Cool!

 Here is another FAQ entry (with a few holes to be filled in):

 

 Q) How do I preserve my Contacts, Calendar etc information when
 re-flashing to a later snapshot?

 A) Bearing in mind that this is early-access software, we do not
 recommend that you store large volumes of valuable contact or calendar
 information in your phone. However, some people have used the following
 procedures for their most immediate contacts.

 If you're using a pre-ASU snapshot, all such files are stored in
 ~/.evolution (/home/root/.evolution), and are in Evolution Database
 Format; you could in theory copy this information to your desktop and
 access it via Evolution or EDS (or vice versa).

 If you're using ASU, this information is stored [WHERE???], and is
 stored in a QTopia-specific format.

 Copy the appropriated directories someplace safe BEFORE re-flashing the
 phone. Either scp -r them from the phone to your desktop, or, cp -r them
 to the micro-SD card (assuming you put the card in and that it still has
 space): cp -r [directories listed above] /media/card/.

 Then re-flash the phone, and copy the files back.

 Note: the format of these files is subject to change.

 Or, [THIS IS UNTESTED] download the QTopia Desktop and synchronize your
 phone with your desktop. The download site is
 http://trolltech.com/developer/downloads/qtopia/desktopdownloads/ for
 common platforms; for unsupported platforms, you could maybe get the
 QTopia Open Source Download and extract and build the QTopia Desktop
 from that.


 -

 If anybody knows the location of the files that QT contacts uses, or has
 actually tried the QTopia Desktop with the new ASU image, please pipe
 in! (Please don't guess, because you might cause somebody to waste a lot
 of time, or lose data :-))

Qtopia contacts are stored in the sqlite database. They can also be copied to 
the sim card.

Qtopia Desktop is too old and will not work with Qtopia version 4.

Currently Qtopia will only sync to Outlook (I think). Someone could write 
plugins for others.



 Thanks

 Ian Darwin



-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech

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RE: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Richard Reichenbacher
What does ASU stand for anyways?  It makes me nervous knowing that the
phones software shares the same initials with my rival University.

Richard

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:24 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

Speaking of needing a sharp nail or the stylus to type easily on the
keypad does that mean there is no support for turning the freerunner
on its side and the keyboard flipping and enlarging, like say the
iphone does?

The one has nothing to do with the other.

This portrait/landscape was in the pre-ASU software; there is no
gui control to enable it yet in ASU, but E17 almost certainly
supports it, so we can hope that the apps will again support it.

Ian Darwin

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Ian Darwin
On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 08:05:13PM +0200, Bastian Muck wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Ian Darwin schrieb:
 | I'd still very much like to see a way to turn it off, so it works the 
 | same for letters as for numbers. It's annoying 90% of the time because 
 | most of the person or street names I need to enter into Contacts are not 
 | going to be listed.  I promise not to write my next 850-page book on my 
 | Neo, so word lookup is of limited use.  I suspect that Contacts, Todo 
 | and Calendar is the most common use case for most people, and that 
 | writing normal text is the least common for most people.

 I think I will write further more SMS than saving contacts. And the 
 texts in calendar are not this long, at least in mine.

OK, so there are some for whom text is more common. Variety is good.
All the more reason to provide an enable/disable gui control for it.

Amusing that I skipped SMS because I hardly use it from my handheld,
since I almost always travel with a notebook computer, and even
compared to a cell phone with a physical keyboard (like my
already-mentioned 5-year-old Blackberry) it's just so much easier
to send mail/sms from a full-sized keyboard).

Cheers
Ian Darwin

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factoid re slowing sales of some mobile handsets in USA

2008-05-20 Thread Ron K. Jeffries
fyi only

Handset sales slowing in U.S. amid worsening
economyhttp://lists.fiercemarkets.com/c.html?rtr=ons=69l,zpnd,8mg,hcdq,bs0p,ljt3,7cks

By Lynnette Luna

There is good and bad news for the U.S. mobile wireless industry when it
comes to the worsening economy. The bad news: Consumers' purchases of new
mobile devices declined in the first quarter for the first time in many
years. The good news: The decline tended to concentrate around customers
using prepaid and among the middle class. The higher end market that
features higher ARPU customers that heavily use the more sophisticated
devices continued to grow.

*The Wall Street Journal* cites two new studies that indicate falling
handset sales in the first quarter. Strategy Analytics reported a 5 percent
decline in the quarter compared with the previous year, while NPD Group
reported a 22-percent drop in the purchase of new devices in the first
quarter. Also, Bernstein Research estimates that U.S. mobile operators added
23 percent fewer subscribers in the first quarter compared with the first
quarter in 2007. The firm is anticipating that growth will continue to slow
and said that the segment experiencing the most slowdown is new
subscriptions for children under 12 and for deeply sub prime users, and
it's reasonable to think that in a weak economy, that both of these
populations would be strapped, said analyst Craig Moffett. Prepaid MVNO
Virgin Mobile is being squeezed by the
economyhttp://lists.fiercemarkets.com/c.html?rtr=ons=69l,zpnd,8mg,164l,935n,ljt3,7cks
.

However, NPD estimates that high-end devices made up 17 percent of all
mobile-phone sales in the first quarter, in increase of 10 percentage points
since the first quarter 2007.

To read more about the economy's impact on the U.S. mobile-phone market:
- check out this
articlehttp://lists.fiercemarkets.com/c.html?rtr=ons=69l,zpnd,8mg,ffut,18ss,ljt3,7cksfrom
*The Wall Street Journal* (sub. req.)

Related articles:
- Virgin Mobile's growing troubles Editorial on Virgin Mobile's slowing net
additionshttp://lists.fiercemarkets.com/c.html?rtr=ons=69l,zpnd,8mg,164l,935n,ljt3,7cks
- Virgin Mobile USA: Poor earnings economy's
faulthttp://lists.fiercemarkets.com/c.html?rtr=ons=69l,zpnd,8mg,ehf1,h547,ljt3,7cks




-- 
Ron K. Jeffries
Twitter @RonKJeffries
mobile 805 567 4670
http://blog.eronj.com
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DVB-T receiver support

2008-05-20 Thread David Kepplinger
Hi,

I'm wondering if the kernel has support for DVB-T USB receivers built in?
If yes, one can use an external USB DVB-T tuner to watch TV (even if
the channel isn't really good).
You wouldn't be very mobile, but that's not that big of a problem.

Thanks, David

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Steven Kurylo
 I'd still very much like to see a way to turn it off, so it works the same
 for letters as for numbers. It's annoying 90% of the time because most of
 the person or street names I need to enter into Contacts are not going to be
 listed.  I promise not to write my next 850-page book on my Neo, so word
 lookup is of limited use.  I suspect that Contacts, Todo and Calendar is the
 most common use case for most people, and that writing normal text is the
 least common for most people.
 I think I will write further more SMS than saving contacts. And the texts in
 calendar are not this long, at least in mine.

My current phone changes the keyboard type based on context.  If
you're typing into a password field, it doesn't try to predict.  Same
with an email address field.  But for the message body it becomes
predictive.  It also adds words to its dictionary from the current
context - words you've already typed which weren't in the dictionary,
or words in the message you're replying to.  Also if you use a word
multiple times it eventually adds it to the dictionary.

-- 
Steven Kurylo

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Kevin Dean
ASU is literally the April Software Update. Three letter acronyms
give it more geek cred. :)

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Richard Reichenbacher
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What does ASU stand for anyways?  It makes me nervous knowing that the
 phones software shares the same initials with my rival University.

 Richard

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RE: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread steve
I thought it was the august update released early!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:20 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

ASU is literally the April Software Update. Three letter acronyms
give it more geek cred. :)

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Richard Reichenbacher
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 What does ASU stand for anyways?  It makes me nervous knowing that the
 phones software shares the same initials with my rival University.

 Richard

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Re: DVB-T receiver support

2008-05-20 Thread Al Johnson
On Tuesday 20 May 2008, David Kepplinger wrote:
 Hi,

 I'm wondering if the kernel has support for DVB-T USB receivers built in?
 If yes, one can use an external USB DVB-T tuner to watch TV (even if
 the channel isn't really good).
 You wouldn't be very mobile, but that's not that big of a problem.

 Thanks, David

If it doesn't you can always recompile :-)

OTOH I don't think you'll have much luck decoding and displaying the video 
stream in real time. If the acceleration in the Glamo ever becomes available 
then you might have more luck, but MPEG2 support isn't mentioned in the 
available data.
http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm

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Re: My Openmoko blog is aimed at helping Freerunner users get started

2008-05-20 Thread Ian Darwin
On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 04:45:14AM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:

 
  If anybody knows the location of the files that QT contacts uses, or has
  actually tried the QTopia Desktop with the new ASU image, please pipe
  in! (Please don't guess, because you might cause somebody to waste a lot
  of time, or lose data :-))
 
 Qtopia contacts are stored in the sqlite database. They can also be copied to 
 the sim card.
 
 Qtopia Desktop is too old and will not work with Qtopia version 4.

Urgh. Thanks for pointing this out!
 

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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Fredrik Wendt
Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Language DOES matter. We use English on this list...
 
 Programming language. :)

Sorry if I wasn't clear on what I meant. I was refering to the generic case - be
it spoken language, programming language, painting, music, ... If you want very
active involvement of participants then they need to easily grasp the
environment and what others have done before.

/ Fredrik


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RE: Europe Distribution

2008-05-20 Thread steve
The phone is in production. The samples people are getting are production
samples. 

The biggest hurdle now is getting the factory to let us open the floodgates.

It's annoying but also utterly normal.

 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Johnson
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:58 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Europe Distribution

One of the resellers in Germany appeared to be accepting orders last I
looked, 
but production handsets aren't shipping yet. See Steve's post from this 
evening for an official update on timescales. Some key developers have 
recently received preproduction handsets, so someone may have mistaken this 
for them being on sale.

On Monday 19 May 2008, Samuel Melrose wrote:
 Oh right, well thank you =].

 You say selling, sorry to take your words so seriously... but are they
 already on sale? I've heard a few people say that they are on sale in
 the US, but I've seen nothing. Has anyone got anything on this please?

 I know its probably on the mailing list somewhere, just can't for the
 life of me find a definite answer.

 Thanks very much,
 Samuel Melrose
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On 19 May 2008, at 17:50, enaut wrote:
  Samuel Melrose schrieb:
  Hey everyone,
  I noticed on the wiki that there was some discussion about a
  distribution center in Europe to make it easier for people over here
  to purchase Neo phones (well, I'm sure I remember reading it
  somewhere, unless it was a very weird dream, but nevermind =S). If I
  am correct, it said that it was looked into but came over as too
  expensive? Or not viable for the company?
 
 
http://www.pr-inside.com/openmoko-signs-deal-with-german-distributor-r384
 865.htm - thats pretty official I think :)
 
  plus there are multiple webstores selling the Freerunner.
 
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RE: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Mo Abrahams
On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 12:19 -0700, steve wrote:
 I thought it was the august update released early!

Funny... I thought it was the August update released late =P


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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Vincent
On 5/20/08, Fredrik Wendt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Language DOES matter. We use English on this list...
 
  Programming language. :)

 Sorry if I wasn't clear on what I meant. I was refering to the generic case
 - be
 it spoken language, programming language, painting, music, ... If you want
 very
 active involvement of participants then they need to easily grasp the
 environment and what others have done before.


In spoken language, however, there is a de facto standard (English). When it
comes to C vs. C++, there's always a lot of people that are fluent in one
vs. a lot of people that are fluent in the other.

/ Fredrik




-- 
Vincent
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RE: Europe Distribution

2008-05-20 Thread Rodolphe Ortalo
Then it is probably time to ask the question: from a european user
perspective, will it be better to place (single-unit) orders directly at
Openmoko via the website or go via Pulster (official distributor no?)?

Rodolphe

Le mardi 20 mai 2008 à 13:48 -0700, steve a écrit :
 The phone is in production. The samples people are getting are production
 samples. 
 
 The biggest hurdle now is getting the factory to let us open the floodgates.
 
 It's annoying but also utterly normal.
 
  
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Johnson
 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:58 PM
 To: community@lists.openmoko.org
 Subject: Re: Europe Distribution
 
 One of the resellers in Germany appeared to be accepting orders last I
 looked, 
 but production handsets aren't shipping yet. See Steve's post from this 
 evening for an official update on timescales. Some key developers have 
 recently received preproduction handsets, so someone may have mistaken this 
 for them being on sale.
 
 On Monday 19 May 2008, Samuel Melrose wrote:
  Oh right, well thank you =].
 
  You say selling, sorry to take your words so seriously... but are they
  already on sale? I've heard a few people say that they are on sale in
  the US, but I've seen nothing. Has anyone got anything on this please?
 
  I know its probably on the mailing list somewhere, just can't for the
  life of me find a definite answer.
 
  Thanks very much,
  Samuel Melrose
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  On 19 May 2008, at 17:50, enaut wrote:
   Samuel Melrose schrieb:
   Hey everyone,
   I noticed on the wiki that there was some discussion about a
   distribution center in Europe to make it easier for people over here
   to purchase Neo phones (well, I'm sure I remember reading it
   somewhere, unless it was a very weird dream, but nevermind =S). If I
   am correct, it said that it was looked into but came over as too
   expensive? Or not viable for the company?
  
  
 http://www.pr-inside.com/openmoko-signs-deal-with-german-distributor-r384
  865.htm - thats pretty official I think :)
  
   plus there are multiple webstores selling the Freerunner.
  
   ___
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  ___
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Re: My Openmoko blog is aimed at helping Freerunner users get started

2008-05-20 Thread David Samblas Martinez
Seems that there is an updated version of the Qtopia Desktop called Qtopia Sync Agent http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3/qtopiadesktop/--- El mar, 20/5/08, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:De: Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED]Asunto: Re: My Openmoko blog is aimed at helping Freerunner users get startedPara: "List for Openmoko community discussion" community@lists.openmoko.orgCC: "Ian Darwin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Fecha: martes, 20 mayo, 2008 9:52On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 04:45:14AM +1000, Lorn Potter wrote:   If anybody knows the location of the files that QT contacts uses, orhas  actually tried the QTopia Desktop with the new ASU image, please
 pipe  in! (Please don't guess, because you might cause somebody towaste a lot  of time, or lose data :-))  Qtopia contacts are stored in the sqlite database. They can also be copiedto  the sim card.  Qtopia Desktop is too old and will not work with Qtopia version 4.Urgh. Thanks for pointing this out! ___Openmoko community mailing listcommunity@lists.openmoko.orghttp://lists..openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community






  Enviado desde Correo Yahoo!La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.


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Re: Standardizing data store across toolkits (SMS, PIM data, playlist, etc)

2008-05-20 Thread joerg
Am Fr  16. Mai 2008 schrieb ian douglas:
 MartinG wrote:
  On Friday 16 May 2008 03:26:06 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  yeah. this is actually the bigger problem we face in the longer run.
  standardising data stores and access to them etc. :)
  
  I think this is a important point that should be given some thought
  before everyone starts hacking. Would it make sense to use opensync
  [1] as a middle layer between the frontend app and the backend store
  -- with one plugin on each side?
 
 
 Yeah, there was a big discussion about this a few months ago, talking 
 about whether to store data in some generic format or some homemade XML 
 format or using some middle layer tool like opensync, and synchronizing 
 data to a remote location periodically versus sync'ing only when 
 connected to a PC, etc. It was a pretty thorough discussion.
 
 Personally, I like the opensync idea, a platform-independent sync 
 engine, that can be ported to the OpenMoko platform.

So was there any decision/consensus on this topic?
I think it's a very mission critical thing to have a decent lib API defined 
from the very beginning - see KDE addressbook, other resources of Kontact and 
the neverending story about the *abc*-libs to use them from outside. LDAP, 
WebDAV/GroupDAV and even IMAP resources come to mind :-/. Have a look to 
Kontact|contacts|resources|add...
Same thing for calendar etc...

/jOERG

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Re: Accellerometer spin

2008-05-20 Thread joerg
Am So  18. Mai 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Instead of adding a compass to the device to be able to read spin about the 
 gravitational axis, would it not be easier to offset one of the 
 accellerometers from the centre of the device?   
 
 That way, the roll is uneffected and the yaw and pitch can be calculated by 
 accounting for the known offset in the equ.  

With 2 g-meters you always have an axis through both of them. It's hard to 
distinguish rotation on this axis from linear acceleration also deviating the 
g-vector direction. Though linear acc. will inevitably change length of 
vector, whereas with rotation the g always stays with natural g of earth.

Anyway, to get somewhat exact real 3 axis rotation info even in deep space 
where no earth-g to be seen anymore, you need a set of gyros or at least 3 
g-meters mounted non-aligned and far from each other.

/jOERG


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Re: DE-crypting calls

2008-05-20 Thread joerg
Am Fr  16. Mai 2008 schrieb Al Johnson:
 On Friday 16 May 2008, ramsesoriginal wrote:
  I was just wondering: we have seen the problems of encryptingcalls.
  But what about decrypting them? Let*s say someone hasa method to call
  you with some sort of encryption.. would it be possible to write a
  decryption for it? Maybe public key?
 
 Depends what sort of calls you mean. If it's GSM voice calls then the same 
 problems apply as already discussed. If you're talking about a data link 
 encrypted end to end and passing voice data then it's possible, probably 
 using established standards. You could make an OpenVPN or IPsec tunnel end 
to 
 end, then use SIP, h323 or IAX2 over it. You could use one of the secured 
 versions of SIP directly, at least one of which uses public keys, but none 
of 
 them are universally accepted. 

What about ZRTP? (Zimmerman, PGP inventor). Have a look at twinkle.com! Via 
GSM you can setup not only voice calls, but also fax and *DATA* calls with up 
to 14400bps. Tunneling SIP and low bandwidth RTP/ZRTP through this link 
should be feasible with low effort

/j
 You could even roll your own protocol using  
 TLS or something. 
 
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Re: Whats up with the freerunner mass production?

2008-05-20 Thread Daniel Spies
I would like to know that, too. I have pretty good connection to China and 
Taiwan, so I could easily arrange to get a Freerunner directly from there... 

If you plan to ship phones to China from the US (or anywhere else) you'll have 
to get an CCC certificate in order to get this working properly... Another 
method could be hand-carrying ;)

On Tuesday 20 May 2008 00:53:04 Mischa Beitz wrote:
 Ok . . . this a completely self interested question. I'm ALREADY IN
 CHINA and would happily venture to the factory to get my hands on one
 of these (I've been using a company phone for the last month waiting
 for it to appear - the boss is starting to wonder).

 Is this possible? Where in China is the phone assembled?

 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 5:54 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  yes. I figure the first of June or  such phones will ship out of china to
  Disty in EU and our HUB in the US.
 
  We still need to figure whether to air freight or sea ship. that's a 2-3
  diffrence right there.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alexander
  Frøyseth
  Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 1:19 PM
  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
  Subject: Re: Whats up with the freerunner mass production?
 
  Can you estimate a time frame?
  Please
 
  Alexander Frøyseth
 
  steve skrev:
   The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically
 
  you
 
  build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy%  pass the test, and the factory
 
  says.
 
  good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on
 
  the
 
  test software, because that bad phone really was good. arrg.
 
  Talked to sean this AM and everything looks good.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steffen
  Winkler Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 1:54 AM
  To: community@lists.openmoko.org
  Subject: Whats up with the freerunner mass production?
 
  Hey guys,
 
  A few days ago, Steve said that the mass production will start on May
  16...now, we have May 19 and I haven't found any
  announcement/confirmation that they are producing...so whats up?
  Are they already producing the Freerunner?
 
  Steffen
 
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Re: DE-crypting calls

2008-05-20 Thread Al Johnson
On Tuesday 20 May 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am Fr  16. Mai 2008 schrieb Al Johnson:
  On Friday 16 May 2008, ramsesoriginal wrote:
   I was just wondering: we have seen the problems of encryptingcalls.
   But what about decrypting them? Let*s say someone hasa method to call
   you with some sort of encryption.. would it be possible to write a
   decryption for it? Maybe public key?
 
  Depends what sort of calls you mean. If it's GSM voice calls then the
  same problems apply as already discussed. If you're talking about a data
  link encrypted end to end and passing voice data then it's possible,
  probably using established standards. You could make an OpenVPN or IPsec
  tunnel end to
  end, then use SIP, h323 or IAX2 over it. You could use one of the secured
  versions of SIP directly, at least one of which uses public keys, but
  none of them are universally accepted.

 What about ZRTP? (Zimmerman, PGP inventor). Have a look at twinkle.com!

That's one of them. There's also MIKEY and SDES. What I meant by not being 
universally accepted is that none of them is implemented by all SIP clients, 
making interoperability somewhat hit and miss. I hope this will change soon!

 Via 
 GSM you can setup not only voice calls, but also fax and *DATA* calls with
 up to 14400bps. Tunneling SIP and low bandwidth RTP/ZRTP through this link
 should be feasible with low effort

Not only that but it has lower and less variable latency than the 'faster' 
connection methods. You should always get 9600bps so that's the bandwidth to 
aim for. There's a video of a presentation that covers most of this somewhere 
in the list archive. 

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RE: Europe Distribution

2008-05-20 Thread steve
Our web shop will direct you to both. you choose.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rodolphe Ortalo
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 2:19 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: RE: Europe Distribution

Then it is probably time to ask the question: from a european user
perspective, will it be better to place (single-unit) orders directly at
Openmoko via the website or go via Pulster (official distributor no?)?

Rodolphe

Le mardi 20 mai 2008 à 13:48 -0700, steve a écrit :
 The phone is in production. The samples people are getting are production
 samples. 
 
 The biggest hurdle now is getting the factory to let us open the
floodgates.
 
 It's annoying but also utterly normal.
 
  
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Al Johnson
 Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 3:58 PM
 To: community@lists.openmoko.org
 Subject: Re: Europe Distribution
 
 One of the resellers in Germany appeared to be accepting orders last I
 looked, 
 but production handsets aren't shipping yet. See Steve's post from this 
 evening for an official update on timescales. Some key developers have 
 recently received preproduction handsets, so someone may have mistaken
this 
 for them being on sale.
 
 On Monday 19 May 2008, Samuel Melrose wrote:
  Oh right, well thank you =].
 
  You say selling, sorry to take your words so seriously... but are they
  already on sale? I've heard a few people say that they are on sale in
  the US, but I've seen nothing. Has anyone got anything on this please?
 
  I know its probably on the mailing list somewhere, just can't for the
  life of me find a definite answer.
 
  Thanks very much,
  Samuel Melrose
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  On 19 May 2008, at 17:50, enaut wrote:
   Samuel Melrose schrieb:
   Hey everyone,
   I noticed on the wiki that there was some discussion about a
   distribution center in Europe to make it easier for people over here
   to purchase Neo phones (well, I'm sure I remember reading it
   somewhere, unless it was a very weird dream, but nevermind =S). If I
   am correct, it said that it was looked into but came over as too
   expensive? Or not viable for the company?
  
  
 http://www.pr-inside.com/openmoko-signs-deal-with-german-distributor-r384
  865.htm - thats pretty official I think :)
  
   plus there are multiple webstores selling the Freerunner.
  
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Re: echo (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions)

2008-05-20 Thread Mike Montour
Crane, Matthew wrote:
 I've noticed that with GSM calls in general there is sometimes an echo.  It 
 can be very pronouced or barely noticable.  It may be hw or sw, but it may 
 not have anything to do with either caller's phone.
 
 If it doesn't happen consistently and is not reproducable, it's likely the 
 network.  IMHO.

In some cases it might be from the network, if it was using a buggy or
mis-calibrated echo-cancellation algorithm. However the Neo itself is
also quite capable of generating an echo - some of the sound coming out
of its speaker is picked up by its microphone, and is then encoded and
sent back to the other caller. In my tests the echo went away when I
muted the Neo's speaker or microphone, so it did not seem to be a
network issue.

The audio coupling between the Neo's speaker and microphone can be
measured independently of the GSM stuff, e.g. with the 'Jaaa' audio
analyzer from http://www.kokkinizita.net/linuxaudio/ or with 'xoscope'.
Various ALSA mixer controls will affect the level of the coupled signal,
but these also affect the intended sound paths (loudness of the speaker
and sensitivity of the microphone). The mixer settings have to be
selected to give the best compromise between these factors. I hope that
the overall audio quality will be good enough once the mixer settings
have been optimized, but I am not yet confident of this.

Audio-quality reports from other Freerunner owners would be appreciated.


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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

2008-05-20 Thread Clinton Ebadi
Carlo E. Prelz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 With regards to the second one, things differ from person to
 person. For most of its life, the openmoko project has been based on C
 and GTK, which I happen to be reasonably versed in. The switch to QT
 *requires* the abandoning of C in favour of C++, a language that I
 personally find unsuitable for use. 

Gtk and C are things I personally find unsuitable for use.

So I'm getting mcclim and clisp running on the emulator and just using
that to write my applications (almost done even with ffi thanks to a
patch I received from an ARM architecture wizard; now I just need to
figure out how to automate builds of clisp because the final build
stage has to run on the target machine to generate the core image).

I bet you could spend a week or two and get KDE's automagic binding
generator programs to spit out C bindings if you really wanted. But
why bother? Gtk ships with the default image so you can just use that.

 Or, you could pick up the older GTK apps and finish them up. It sounds like
 the shipping apps are a placeholder to get a nice working phone for shipping
 Freerunner. It's an open platform, so switch them out if you want the other
 ones. Or improve the new ones. Or write new ones from scratch in Ruby.
 Whatever. :)

 This could come to be true, given enough free time. Nevertheless,
 there is a big difference between having the core applications of a
 phone maintained and updated by Openmoko and having to depend on my
 scarce free time or other voluntary work for the same core apps.

The Qtopia specific data formats are temporary until the
freesmartphone dbus services are ready. After that it won't matter
what GUI toolkit is in use; the actual applications for accessing
contacts and such then become trivial to write.

-- 
Lindsay (Carlton): should i eat more post its

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Re: My Openmoko blog is aimed at helping Freerunner users get started

2008-05-20 Thread Wilkinson, Alex
0n Tue, May 20, 2008 at 01:42:12PM -0600, Vinc Duran wrote: 

Wow. I had no idea Qtopia could sync with Outlook. That's going to make my
life much easier.

Will the Out-Of-The-Box Freerunner sync to Outlook ?

 -aW

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