Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:59:35 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 09:06:35 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
  interest :)
 
 Sorry, just how open is the current glamo driver exactly?

the driver is open. the chip specs so you can go write your own driver from
scratch are only available under nda though :(.

 IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake (Connecting
 it to a shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).

i definitely can't argue here. :) i know when i turned up glamo was already in.
my guess after some quick poking and a lot of spec doc reading was that given
full drivers - we'd give or take have about the same performance as pure
software only drivers (for 2d) in a dumb framebuffer - i.e. - what gta01 has.
the exception might be opengl (3d) there where software won't be able to render
and keep up with the glamo, but 3d comes with a lot of caveats on the glamo,
like max 256x256 textures. no render-to-texture (so intermediate buffers are...
well.. a pain), and the unhappiest is the max 3d buffer size (target for
rendering) of 511x511 - so as such we can't manage fullscreen 3d @vga res. we'd
always have to go down to something like qvga. 

 OpenMoko insisted on having open source drivers, and the only hardware vendor
 which would let them do it was SMedia. So we get this massively underpowered
 graphics processor - but that's ok because OpenMoko can release the source
 code to the driver! Except SMedia wont let OpenMoko realease any technical
 info about the chip. So, in fact, the glamo driver can only be developed by
 people employed by OpenMoko and only after they sign an NDA.

well we can't release the docs smedia gave us. but we are allowed to talk about
the technical details all we like in public. THOSE docs that smedia wrote are
theirs and we can't give them out. we are allowed to go write our own docs
based on it - but that won't be a small document, and right now internally no
one has the time to just sit down and write such a doc (as opposed to writing
code).

 The Xglamo may be open source, but it is not, nor can it ever be, a community
 project.

it can - partially, but only in as far as any chip specs that are apparent in
the existing code.

 Now look at the other options OpenMoko could have gone with. Well, _the_
 option of cource would be to have used a half-decent SoC, one with an
 integrated GPU such as a Freescale i.MX or TI OMAP, even an XScale would have
 been better. You'd then get a PowerVR GPU (same as used in the iPhone), which
 already has Linux drivers. What's more, OpenMoko would get the source code
 for the drivers, under NDA from Imagination Technologies. The only
 restriction would be that OpenMoko couldn't release the source. But that's no
 different to the glamo, given that only OpenMoko employees can work on it.

again - we could have chosen much better soc's indeed, but as it stands right
now that isn't happening. gta02 is basically a gta01 slightly improved. gta03
will at this stage be a gta02 minus glamo (which simplifies things a lot and at
least for 2d stuff should get us an improvement).

 We would also have had a decent processor, one with a more up-to-date
 instruction set than the nearly 10-year-old armv4t. So there may not have
 been Cortex A8s around 2 years ago when GTA02 development began, but there
 were plenty of options. Why on earth did OpenMoko stick with an aging CPU and
 an almost useless GPU when there were so much better options? And please
 don't say BOM, I refuse to believe the combined price of the 2442 and glamo
 is cheaper than e.g. an i.MX31 or OMAP2420.

because even before that the neo was inherited from an older project to do a
windows-mobile phone... the hardware is based on an ancient product design.

 Cheers,
 
 Tom
 
 PS: Very sorry for the rant, I just had such high hopes for OpenMoko and am
 just fustrated with the hardware design decisions.

understood. i can't blame you. i've done my share of ranting too. but even
internally the most i have managed to do, i think, is influence the glamo to
vanish from the gta03, but otherwise we have what we have now (just a new case,
different battery, added a camera, a different gsm module).

gta04 was looking good. the samsung 6400 as such is a nice soc. i've dug into
the 2d gfx portion of the docs. it's a bit tricky to use, but much better than
the glamo and much more powerful in the 2d department (u'll manage scaling
and compositing even in argb32 bit) nicely on that baby. it's memory bus was
way better than gta02, and as it's graphics is integrated on the soc software
cpu access to do fallbacks as well as mixing with hardware accel is sane and
performant (unlike accessing video memory across a puny bus from the cpu when
you need to fall back to using the cpu to do stuff).

but... gta03 is back from the dead, gta04 is off the map (for now) and
everything is 

Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano
thomasg ha scritto:
 Hi list,
 
 there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
 change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
 So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
 behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
 
 I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
 (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
 It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
 doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
 softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike.
 Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
 MB, ~3.5 min)
 I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 
 kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
 Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
 
 P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
 
 

Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, 
it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i 
think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us 
keep the freerunner in our hands :D

Cya!!

Pietro

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Lorn Potter
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:26:25 +0200 Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
 beggars the imagination.
 I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.
 and google earth
 No, Google Earth is a native Qt application... Only Picasa uses wine.
 
 it is? you are right. its incredibly bad fonts and ugliness and general 
 attempt
 to look as much like win95 as possible had me fooled :) 

Then you need to set up your distro better. Qt is easily configurable. You can 
use qconfig to set Qt 
to use preferred fonts/style, etc.



 an ldd of the binary
 does show it's using qt... :)
 


-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech


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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread Kalle Happonen
thomasg wrote:
 Hi list,

 there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
 change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
 So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
 behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.

 I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
 (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
 It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
 doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
 softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look 
 alike.
 Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
 MB, ~3.5 min)
 I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 
 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
 Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.

 P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(

Thanks for the great vid. It's exciting to see what we'll be able to get 
our hands on. And epic music :). And my 2 cents (eurocents), 
downloadable real video  flash in most cases.

Kalle


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Re: y-cable in action

2008-06-05 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
| Hey
|
| I figured I would share... I cut a mini-usb plug's insulation right
| down to the housing and opened the housing to solder the 47k resistor
| to the id pin. I cut up a regular usb extension cord to get the Y
| part. Everything is wired together except the d+ and d- coming from
| the male usb side are left unconnected.

Hey good work!  AFAIK that's the first Y cable ever.  I tried to make
one of these but the 5-way mini USB fell to pieces after taking the
plastic off, and the wires disappeared into a further moulding.

| I'm unable to test either of these with the verizon 3g/evdo usb
| adapter... I don't have access to it this week :(

I did try this last week, I was able to see the mass storage device part
of my 3G dongle OK, but not the GSM serial interfaces it exports
despite fiddling with the kernel and adding the option driver that my
laptop uses when it is plugged in there.  I ran out of time rather than
gave up on it, but maybe your 3G device presents itself differently.

- -Andy

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Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=HIc4
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Tom Cooksey
On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
 | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
 (Connecting it to a
 | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
 
 Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
 actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
 is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think it is.

I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?

If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
DMA be used to copy data to it?


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Re: duplicate mail

2008-06-05 Thread Pawel Kowalak
On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Philippe Guillebert wrote:
 Hi list,

 Am I the only one to get some of the e-mails on this list twice ou  
 more
 ? looks like the issue is back ...

I get duplicates for every mail I receive (not only for openmoko  
list) and it started yesterday ;) Strange, but it's not related to  
openmoko list, I guess.

BR,
Pawel

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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread Kyle Gordon
Kalle Happonen wrote:
 thomasg wrote:
   
 Hi list,

 there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
 change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
 So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
 behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.

 I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
 (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
 It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
 doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
 softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look 
 alike.
 Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
 MB, ~3.5 min)
 I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 
 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
 Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.

 P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
 

 Thanks for the great vid. It's exciting to see what we'll be able to get 
 our hands on. And epic music :). And my 2 cents (eurocents), 
 downloadable real video  flash in most cases.

 Kalle

   
2 eurocents is about... 10 yankee dinar? :-)

However, good work folks. It's great to see it all coming together so 
nicely :-D

Kyle


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
| On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
| | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
| (Connecting it to a
| | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
|
| Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
| actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
| is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think
it is.
|
| I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?

We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.

| If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
| DMA be used to copy data to it?

DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.

The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)

In addition, we currently slug the Glamo IO with quite heavy wait states
to get stable operation; without it the Glamo acts weird in ways we
never got to the bottom of.  A few weeks ago I experimented again with
reducing these and saw all kinds of framebuffer corruption.  The Glamo
has several processors in it sharing its internal DRAM (6 or so), I
guess there is some stuff going on from that direction despite we hold
the unused ones in reset in there.

So unless our understanding of that beastie evolves further than the
datasheets, the current speed of it is what we have to work with.
However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
perfectly adequate.  The August Software Update ;-) has some cool
alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
you got the impression I believe.

- -Andy
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=+qHS
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Re: OT: TinyURL

2008-06-05 Thread Joseph Reeves
I'm sorry, but this is a pretty ridiculous argument:

Company A releases a largely redundant service that does little more
than expose its users to a potential attack vector. In return, Company
A releases a second service to try improve the security of its first.

Why bother with either? My email client is pretty good; I'll continue
not clicking on tinyurls links.

Joseph



On 04/06/2008, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  On 4 Jun 2008, at 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote:

  ...
  TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never
  click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for
  abuse:
 
  1: Discover browser 0-day exploit
  2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website
  3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery
  4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it
  5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit
 
  Or even easier:
 
  1: Link to goatse.
 
  TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and
  teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it.
 

  TinyURL itself protects you from this.

  All you do is go to http://tinyurl.com/preview.php, click on the enable
 previews link and it sets a cookie on your PC. Thereafter, everytime you
 click on a TinyURL link it shows you first what website the link redirects
 to, and you then have to click again to make a manual redirection.

  Maybe your email client is perfect, and never has a problem with mangled
 URLs, but for the rest of us TinyURL is very useful.

  Stroller.



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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 thomasg ha scritto:
  Hi list,
  
  there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
  change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
  So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
  behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
  
  I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
  (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
  It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
  doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
  softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike.
  Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
  MB, ~3.5 min)
  I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 
  kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
  Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
  
  P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
 
 Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, 
 it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i 
 think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

don't be so sure about that! :)

 I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us 
 keep the freerunner in our hands :D
 
 Cya!!
 
 Pietro
 
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Re: OT: ajax image galleries

2008-06-05 Thread Joseph Reeves
Yes, you're right, any site can redirect to anywhere else, but if that
happens and I end up somewhere I don't want to be, I can blacklist
both the original site and the target. I admit that this may be an
exercise in futility, but at least it's possible.

My personal mail client, and the one I use at work, both handle long
URLs fine. No need for tinyurl there.

And no, I never advocated hotlinking to images.

Joseph



On 04/06/2008, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wednesday 04 June 2008 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote:
   Disable javascript and it works much better. I use the NoScript FF
   extension.


 Best FF extension imho.


   TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never
   click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for
   abuse:


 tinyurl is useful instead of typing in twattishly long urls which many sites
  insist on using. Generally you don;t want to click on a link provided by
  someone you don't know/trust. Not only that but if I use this url as an
  example - look what your mail client / this mailing list does to it (break it
  on wrap)

  
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiUsrp=dhFg13955bmio=freerunnermanuf=fic-om

  it's clearly easier to have

  http://tinyurl.com/4e7o6d


  
   1: Discover browser 0-day exploit
   2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website
   3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery
   4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it
   5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit
  
   Or even easier:
  
   1: Link to goatse.


 Right, and any webpage could still redirect your browser to another so your
  example fails.


   TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and
   teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it.
  


 and yet you're happy to advocate hotlinking to images, thus leeching
  bandwidth. That's worse imho.

 --

  Andy / ScaredyCat


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:57:12 +1000 Lorn Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:26:25 +0200 Marco Trevisan (Treviño)
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
  beggars the imagination.
  I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.
  and google earth
  No, Google Earth is a native Qt application... Only Picasa uses wine.
  
  it is? you are right. its incredibly bad fonts and ugliness and general
  attempt to look as much like win95 as possible had me fooled :) 
 
 Then you need to set up your distro better. Qt is easily configurable. You
 can use qconfig to set Qt to use preferred fonts/style, etc.

luckily for me qconfig isn't on there :( kde apps look fine. i'm utterly unsure
how to get a plain qt app like google-earth to use kde's qt setup. :( but out
of the box it does look hopelessly ugly :(

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:33:58 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
  | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
  (Connecting it to a
  | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
  
  Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
  actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
  is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think it is.
 
 I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?

it's on the memory bus, not sdio. a gfx chip on sdio would indeed be just about
the most stupid idea i have ever heard of and anyone doing that should be
summarily executed with a blunt spoon! :)

 If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
 DMA be used to copy data to it?

dma can. it just is even slower than using the cpu. also the entire memory bus
is locked up when doing a copy with cpu OR dma, so even if dma were the same
speed as doing a copy with the cpu, we'd still have the cpu locked out of the
memory bus while waiting for dma - so no gain anyway (as in all practice you
will need the memory bus :)). actual tests found dma to be LESS than 1/2 the
speed of doing a copy with the cpu. this is just a limitation of the SOC, and
the glamo is just well... not fast at accepting read/write requests - the
bandwidth is limited to about 7mb/sec for writes ( can't remember what reads
are - but i think its symmetric).

so a big performance bottleneck we have is transfers to/from glamo - it really
hobbles performance as it is a tiny straw we send data through. not to mention
sd-card IO data also shares this glamo bus... :) so don't go doing any heavy IO
on the SD card AND gfx... at the same time! :)

-- 
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Marc Bantle
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:59:35 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:

   
 On Tuesday 03 June 2008 09:06:35 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 
 the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
 interest :)
   
 Sorry, just how open is the current glamo driver exactly?
 

 the driver is open. the chip specs so you can go write your own driver from
 scratch are only available under nda though :(.

   
 IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake (Connecting
 it to a shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
 

 i definitely can't argue here. :) i know when i turned up glamo was already 
 in.
 my guess after some quick poking and a lot of spec doc reading was that given
 full drivers - we'd give or take have about the same performance as pure
 software only drivers (for 2d) in a dumb framebuffer - i.e. - what gta01 has.
 the exception might be opengl (3d) there where software won't be able to 
 render
 and keep up with the glamo, but 3d comes with a lot of caveats on the glamo,
 like max 256x256 textures. no render-to-texture (so intermediate buffers 
 are...
 well.. a pain), and the unhappiest is the max 3d buffer size (target for
 rendering) of 511x511 - so as such we can't manage fullscreen 3d @vga res. 
 we'd
 always have to go down to something like qvga. 

   
 OpenMoko insisted on having open source drivers, and the only hardware vendor
 which would let them do it was SMedia. So we get this massively underpowered
 graphics processor - but that's ok because OpenMoko can release the source
 code to the driver! Except SMedia wont let OpenMoko realease any technical
 info about the chip. So, in fact, the glamo driver can only be developed by
 people employed by OpenMoko and only after they sign an NDA.
 

 well we can't release the docs smedia gave us. but we are allowed to talk 
 about
 the technical details all we like in public. THOSE docs that smedia wrote are
 theirs and we can't give them out. we are allowed to go write our own docs
 based on it - but that won't be a small document, and right now internally no
 one has the time to just sit down and write such a doc (as opposed to writing
 code).

   
 The Xglamo may be open source, but it is not, nor can it ever be, a community
 project.
 

 it can - partially, but only in as far as any chip specs that are apparent in
 the existing code.

   
 Now look at the other options OpenMoko could have gone with. Well, _the_
 option of cource would be to have used a half-decent SoC, one with an
 integrated GPU such as a Freescale i.MX or TI OMAP, even an XScale would have
 been better. You'd then get a PowerVR GPU (same as used in the iPhone), which
 already has Linux drivers. What's more, OpenMoko would get the source code
 for the drivers, under NDA from Imagination Technologies. The only
 restriction would be that OpenMoko couldn't release the source. But that's no
 different to the glamo, given that only OpenMoko employees can work on it.
 

 again - we could have chosen much better soc's indeed, but as it stands right
 now that isn't happening. gta02 is basically a gta01 slightly improved. gta03
 will at this stage be a gta02 minus glamo (which simplifies things a lot and 
 at
 least for 2d stuff should get us an improvement).

   
 We would also have had a decent processor, one with a more up-to-date
 instruction set than the nearly 10-year-old armv4t. So there may not have
 been Cortex A8s around 2 years ago when GTA02 development began, but there
 were plenty of options. Why on earth did OpenMoko stick with an aging CPU and
 an almost useless GPU when there were so much better options? And please
 don't say BOM, I refuse to believe the combined price of the 2442 and glamo
 is cheaper than e.g. an i.MX31 or OMAP2420.
 

 because even before that the neo was inherited from an older project to do a
 windows-mobile phone... the hardware is based on an ancient product design.

   
 Cheers,

 Tom

 PS: Very sorry for the rant, I just had such high hopes for OpenMoko and am
 just fustrated with the hardware design decisions.
 

 understood. i can't blame you. i've done my share of ranting too. but even
 internally the most i have managed to do, i think, is influence the glamo to
 vanish from the gta03, but otherwise we have what we have now (just a new 
 case,
 different battery, added a camera, a different gsm module).

 gta04 was looking good. the samsung 6400 as such is a nice soc. i've dug into
 the 2d gfx portion of the docs. it's a bit tricky to use, but much better than
 the glamo and much more powerful in the 2d department (u'll manage scaling
 and compositing even in argb32 bit) nicely on that baby. it's memory bus was
 way better than gta02, and as it's graphics is integrated on the soc software
 cpu access to do fallbacks as well as mixing with hardware accel is sane and
 performant (unlike accessing video memory 

Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread Rahul Joshi
  Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
 it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
 think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

don't be so sure about that! :)

Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973
 FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking)

Rahul J


On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  thomasg ha scritto:
   Hi list,
  
   there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the
   change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos,
 too.
   So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it
   behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
  
   I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1]
   (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
   It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely
   doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the
   softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look
 alike.
   Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16
   MB, ~3.5 min)
   I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500
   kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
   Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
  
   P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
 
  Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
  it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
  think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

 don't be so sure about that! :)

  I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us
  keep the freerunner in our hands :D
 
  Cya!!
 
  Pietro
 
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Tom Cooksey
On Thursday 05 June 2008 11:29:10 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:33:58 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
  On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
   | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
   (Connecting it to a
   | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
   
   Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
   actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
   is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think it is.
  
  I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?
 
 it's on the memory bus, not sdio. a gfx chip on sdio would indeed be just 
 about
 the most stupid idea i have ever heard of and anyone doing that should be
 summarily executed with a blunt spoon! :)

Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have 
misunderstood
previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached to the CPU's 
SDIO 
interface. You can understand where I was coming from now!

  If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
  DMA be used to copy data to it?
 
 dma can. it just is even slower than using the cpu. also the entire memory bus
 is locked up when doing a copy with cpu OR dma, so even if dma were the same
 speed as doing a copy with the cpu, we'd still have the cpu locked out of the
 memory bus while waiting for dma - so no gain anyway (as in all practice you
 will need the memory bus :)). actual tests found dma to be LESS than 1/2 the
 speed of doing a copy with the cpu. this is just a limitation of the SOC, and
 the glamo is just well... not fast at accepting read/write requests - the
 bandwidth is limited to about 7mb/sec for writes ( can't remember what reads
 are - but i think its symmetric).

Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of 
getting on
with something else while the DMA occurs.


Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't because 
of
any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith a little. :-)


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Tom Cooksey
On Thursday 05 June 2008 10:29:36 Andy Green wrote:
 The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
 has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
 mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
 CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
What exactly do you mean by an async memory bus interface? Surely the bus
has a clock to clock data in off the data bus? 

Are you saying that the CPU writes data out at a known frequency and the glamo 
clocks it in at the same frequancy with some UART-like clock sync? This sounds
very, very bad? 

 In addition, we currently slug the Glamo IO with quite heavy wait states
 to get stable operation; without it the Glamo acts weird in ways we
 never got to the bottom of.  A few weeks ago I experimented again with
 reducing these and saw all kinds of framebuffer corruption.  The Glamo
 has several processors in it sharing its internal DRAM (6 or so), I
 guess there is some stuff going on from that direction despite we hold
 the unused ones in reset in there.
 
 So unless our understanding of that beastie evolves further than the
 datasheets, the current speed of it is what we have to work with.

But it _should_ be an aweful lot faster than it currently is. I understand the 
reasons 
why it's so slow, but these are hardware bugs. Surely SMedia are the ones who 
should 
be helping you try and fix those bugs? Or Samsung if it's the CPU. The only bit 
you've 
done is connect the CPU's bus lines to the Glamo's bus lines - I guess you do 
that with 
simple copper traces too. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount you can do 
differently? 

 However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
 perfectly adequate.  The August Software Update ;-) has some cool
 alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
 you got the impression I believe.

Have you watched the video which started this thread? Seen an iPhone before?
What about the latest Google android videos:
http://androidcommunity.com/first-live-images-of-fullscreen-android-demo-20080528/

I get so fustrated with people thinking that it's ok for OpenMoko to be worse 
than
everything else out there. Just because it's open source doesn't mean we can't 
make
something to thrash the pants off everything else graphicly.

To compete with iPhone, android and everything else which comes along, the 
OpenMoko
is going to need a programmable 3D pipeline, end of story. IMO, that means an 
OMAP3,
just like a pandora and just like the beagleboard. I guess FIC is tied to 
Samsung tho.




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Swiss Group-Order

2008-06-05 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
Some time back (March or so) I had offered to organize a Freerunner group 
order for Switzerland. At the time, most people were expecting a late 
April/early May shipping date which would have fit my schedule pretty well. 

But as we all know, that date slipped; right now it looks like late June could 
be met.

Unfortunately, I will be abroad for a month starting late June so obviously I 
will not be able to relay any packages in that timeframe. I'm deeply sorry.


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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread matt_hsu
Brad Midgley wrote:
 Yorick

   
 Maybe I missed somehting, but to my knowlegde the AGPS is not yet working on
 the Freerunner.
 Is there any work being done to get AGPS working? Does anybody have an idea
 if it will ever be implemented or not? And if it will be implemented, when
 will it be ready?
 

 Len Chen sent a pdf to the list last month with gps comparisons. The
 last paragraph of his writeup seems to suggest that freerunner's
 implementation of the gps module lacks the ability to do agps.

   

Hi all,

Here is the reference about AGPS implementation.

 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt


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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-05 Thread rakshat hooja


  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
 we'e
 going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
 to
 fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
 worth
 the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.




I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters
as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile
phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed
improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA.

Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and
would love to see something similar on GTA0X.

Rakshat
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
| On Thursday 05 June 2008 10:29:36 Andy Green wrote:
| The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
| has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
| mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
| CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
| What exactly do you mean by an async memory bus interface? Surely the bus
| has a clock to clock data in off the data bus?

Async busses use strobes like chip select, read and so on instead of
an explicit clock.

| But it _should_ be an aweful lot faster than it currently is. I
understand the reasons
| why it's so slow, but these are hardware bugs. Surely SMedia are the
ones who should

When we figure it out we'll know.  It the meanwhile, it's OK.

| However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
| perfectly adequate.  The August Software Update ;-) has some cool
| alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
| you got the impression I believe.
|
| Have you watched the video which started this thread? Seen an iPhone
before?
| What about the latest Google android videos:
|
http://androidcommunity.com/first-live-images-of-fullscreen-android-demo-20080528/

I just jumped in to correct your wrong idea about graphic device
connectivity, not answer is there a God? :-)

- -Andy
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GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Yorick Matthys

**
Matt said:
 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt

***

I get the impression there is only informtion to have AGPS working with an 
internet connection. I was under the impression that AGPS would be possible 
over the GSM-network. Will this be implemented or is it impossible?

y
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GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Yorick Matthys

**
Matt said:
 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt

***

Scratch my previous question, I realise now that it was a stupid one :)
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Re: OT: ajax image galleries

2008-06-05 Thread Andy Powell
On Thursday 05 June 2008 09:31, Joseph Reeves wrote:
 Yes, you're right, any site can redirect to anywhere else, but if that
 happens and I end up somewhere I don't want to be, I can blacklist
 both the original site and the target. I admit that this may be an
 exercise in futility, but at least it's possible.

True, but if it's a 0 day exploit it's too late. Your example was basically

1. set up a site with stuff people want to look at
2. wait for traffic to build up
3. Change content to 0 day exploit.

I can't see how any of this is tinyul's fault at all. It's not as if you can 
modify the URL you get from tinyurl to point somewhere else - you have to 
modify the content of the site. 

 My personal mail client, and the one I use at work, both handle long
 URLs fine. No need for tinyurl there.

That's great... but not all clients or mailing lists are equal - If you're a 
member of any Yahoo group this will be self evident.

 And no, I never advocated hotlinking to images.

You are correct, that was Chris.. apologies

 Joseph


-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Ron K. Jeffries
Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
to hold a stylus?

The Palm Treo 700p and similar provide good examples
re the stylus design and receptacle.

-- 
Ron K. Jeffries
http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-05 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Thursday 05 June 2008 14:32:14 rakshat hooja wrote:

 The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
 reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
 tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
 the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

My vote is squarely with VGA preferably WVGA, the web is just barely useable 
on VGA and not much use at all on QVGA.



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Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Ken Young
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
 since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
 pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
 the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.

Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

Ken Young


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-05 Thread Dylan Semler
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:32 AM, rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
 we'e
 going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
 to
 fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
 worth
 the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.




 I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
 the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
 Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
 Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
 you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
 N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
 reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
 tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
 the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)


I don't know, I have the opposite feeling.  Screen real estate is /very/
important to me and the VGA screen is one of the only hardware features of
the Neos that separate it from most other smart phones.  It's probably my
favorite hardware feature and I'm definitely willing to pay for it.  Web
browsing on my current smart phone with a QVGA screen is very annoying; I'm
hoping the VGA of the Freerunner will be enough of an improvement to browse
more easily.

If you are suggesting that the Neo 1973 is harder to read because the
letters are smaller (which you may not be doing), in theory that can be
worked around in software.

You're points on the LCM are probably very good ones, though I've never
heard of LCM before.
-- 
Dylan

Type faster. Use Dvorak:
http://dvzine.org
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Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread steve
 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
 Hi every one,
 
 I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
 available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
 the mailing list :)).
 Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
 this question.
 
 Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
 in advance now?
 
 Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
 recommendation in this regard?
 
 Regards,
 MM Alam
 
 
 
 
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RE: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

2008-06-05 Thread steve
Ya, there are also ugly taxes on FM last time I looked. ( in EU) 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joachim Steiger
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:31 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Cc: Joerg Reisenweber
Subject: Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

Stroller wrote:
 Yeah, but you're the guys who can just slip the odd extra chip into  
 the design without anyone else noticing.   ;)

don't think so ;)

 If questioned just tell management that Classic FM is required to 
 soothe the kernel penguins.

well.. it adds power, space and cost and complexity to the whole thing.
and quite ugly rf validation and eventually even certification requirements
depending on where you plan to sell it i guess ;)

it was already discussed in detail last year i think.

to sum it up: OM does know that _some_ people want a fm radio.
same as for electronic (magnetic) compass, a rfid transceiver/nfc stuff,
embedded micro-beamers, fm transmitters, dvb-t/h receivers, dab/drm
receivers etc. or a camera.
others again do not want some parts with a reason (price, size, usage
constraints (some companies forbid entering with a cameraphone)

we just need to make the best out of it for all involved parties:
* om needs to build and sell hardware
* the community wants to get a device which is not vaporvare and not in
development forever.

so we need to find a nice compromise and be careful what to add, in which
configuration and for which product to please us all (the community when it
comes to features and availability as well as price and size) and om in the
cause to survive by building real free and open designs.

not easy all the time, but i think it helps us all, if everybody knows that
its 'not that easy' to add some part just like that, but hard work.
to find components we can and want use, which are available and please om as
well as the community due to price, availability, features and size AND open
documentations or drivers is sometimes very time consuming.

as for fm.. its kinda borderline for me, (personally, not that my opinion
counts more than yours) since i never listen to fm radio anymore.
its more important to have the 3.5 mm jack for reasonable headphones, and a
solid and good quality audio electronics in front of that, for me.
lets all thank joerg, that he has already taken care of that ;) kudos.

regards


-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Hardware Block Diagram

2008-06-05 Thread Dale Schumacher
I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any block
diagram of the Freerunner hardware.  Is there any such thing?  It would sure
help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.


-- Forwarded message --
 From: Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
 Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

...

 We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
 You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
 Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
 the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.

 | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why
 can't
 | DMA be used to copy data to it?

 DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
 it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.

 The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
 has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
 mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
 CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Dylan Semler
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.


: )


-- 
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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Stroller

On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

 Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
 to hold a stylus?

Nooo!

Stylii are EVIL!

If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for  
that app on my mobile phone!

vi FTW!

Stroller.


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Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Mark
Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST 2008

Hi.

flexd schrieb:
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
 On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 Lally Singh lally.singh at gmail.com 
 babbled:

 the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
 interest :)


 To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
 not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
 couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
gfx people care much more.

 Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
 love it!
Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.

Regards
Robert

If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.

Mark

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread ian douglas
... and there was much rejoicing!

steve wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.


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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Tyrell Berry
I'm sorry if this question is completely ignorant, but I am always seeking
understanding, and my previous understanding is inconsistant with the
discussion here.

I had originally believed 2 things.  First, that AGPS was required by law in
all US cell phones (Possibly elsewhere).  And second, I had believed
that AGPS was simply GPS with assistence from triangulating off of the GSM
towers as well.  Meaning, I thought AGPS was a combination of satallite GPS
and the sort of triangulation Google Maps does in the iPhone.

Further, I thought I read a comment somewhere, maybe a year ago, maybe
more, (And I can't find the reference now) to the effect of because the neo
is required to have an AGPS chip, we will be giving the user access.

And so I guess my question is, is it legal to operate the Neo without AGPS?
And is there more (Or less) functionality coming from the assist portion of
the AGPS?

In all fairness, I have been confused before, and I will be confused again.
I hope my ignorance hasn't opened up a larger can of worms...  Thank you in
advance for your response.
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Federico Lorenzi
Yay at last! So when does your psuedorandom date generator say they
will be ready for shipping :)

Also, in a previous email you mentioned pickups, I assume this means
we would be able to go Fremont, CA, and actually fetch a FreeRunner,
or is it only for larger orders?

Cheers,
Federico

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:12 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
 else have a better guess?

 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.

 Cheers
 Dennis

 Masoom Alam wrote:
 Hi every one,

 I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
 available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
 the mailing list :)).
 Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
 this question.

 Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
 in advance now?

 Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
 recommendation in this regard?

 Regards,
 MM Alam




 --
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Antoine Reid
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.



Wonderful ! :)

-- 
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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

2008-06-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.06.2008 um 17:12 schrieb steve:

 Ya, there are also ugly taxes on FM last time I looked. ( in EU)

AFAIK 14 % import duties for broadcast receivers. Therefore some  
companies split production between basic device + receiver module  
(china) and final assembly in europe. Then, the 14% are charged on  
import of the receiver modules only and not for the complete device.

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Roland Häder
Hi,

On Thursday, 5. June 2008, steve wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

Is this the mail I have waited for? :D

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Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko

2008-06-05 Thread Esben Stien
saurabh gupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I am saurabh gupta, working on speech recognition facility in open
 moko

All fine and dandy, but are you also looking at sphinx?

-- 
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production #2

2008-06-05 Thread Roland Häder
Hi,

On Thursday, 5. June 2008, steve wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

Is this the mail I have been waiting for? :D

Second try without signature.

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen
Thursday 05 June 2008 steve wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.


  This is roughly the best news since hmm... i'm not entirely sure, since some 
really good news ;)

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does
 anyone else have a better guess?

 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.

 Cheers
 Dennis

 Masoom Alam wrote:
  Hi every one,
 
  I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
  available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
  the mailing list :)).
  Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
  this question.
 
  Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
  in advance now?
 
  Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
  recommendation in this regard?
 
  Regards,
  MM Alam
 
 
 
 
  --
  --
 
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-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Sebastian Billaudelle
Wow!

I can't believe it;-)

Thanks!

Am Donnerstag, den 05.06.2008, 08:12 -0700 schrieb steve:

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
 else have a better guess?
 
 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.
 
 Cheers
 Dennis
 
 Masoom Alam wrote:
  Hi every one,
  
  I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
  available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
  the mailing list :)).
  Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
  this question.
  
  Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
  in advance now?
  
  Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
  recommendation in this regard?
  
  Regards,
  MM Alam
  
  
  
  
  --
  --
  
  ___
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  community@lists.openmoko.org
  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
 
 - --
 - ---
 Dennis Wollersheim
 Lecturer, Health Information Management
 La Trobe University
 Bundoora Victoria 3086
 Room HS1:110
 (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
 0414 529 454 (mobile)
 http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Please do not send me any Microsoft Office documents - I won't accept
them!
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more
information!

Sorry!


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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Kevin Dean
Excellent! Thanks for the update!

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
 else have a better guess?

 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.

 Cheers
 Dennis

 Masoom Alam wrote:
 Hi every one,

 I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
 available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
 the mailing list :)).
 Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
 this question.

 Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
 in advance now?

 Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
 recommendation in this regard?

 Regards,
 MM Alam




 --
 --

 ___
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 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

 - --
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 Dennis Wollersheim
 Lecturer, Health Information Management
 La Trobe University
 Bundoora Victoria 3086
 Room HS1:110
 (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
 0414 529 454 (mobile)
 http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
 - ---
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 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

 iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
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RE: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Staley, Daniel L
That's the best news I've heard in months!

Thanks Steve!
-Dan Staley


From: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:12 AM
To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
Subject: Cleared to start Mass production

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
 Hi every one,

 I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
 available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
 the mailing list :)).
 Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
 this question.

 Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
 in advance now?

 Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
 recommendation in this regard?

 Regards,
 MM Alam




 --
 --

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Lecturer, Health Information Management
La Trobe University
Bundoora Victoria 3086
Room HS1:110
(03) 9479 1763 (bh)
0414 529 454 (mobile)
http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread kazaam
Can someone here answer my question if at the moment v5 or v6 are produced?

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
 On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
  Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
  to hold a stylus?

 Nooo!

 Stylii are EVIL!

 If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
 that app on my mobile phone!

A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application type and 
physical display size.

That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-compatible (we 
also hate stylii), _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people 
who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to operate 
with a stylus.

:M:

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:05:47 Mark wrote:
 Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST
 2008

 Hi.
 
 flexd schrieb:
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
  On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 Lally Singh lally.singh at
  gmail.com babbled:
 
  the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take
  an interest :)
 
  To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
  not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
  couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
 There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
 non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
 gfx people care much more.
 
  Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
  love it!
 
 Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.
 
 Regards
 Robert

 If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
 obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
 unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.

Not at all obvious to me.

:M:

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Congratulations! Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread W. B. Kranendonk

Way to go! Please send best regards to all who have
made it possible so far :-))

Kind regards,

Boudewijn


--- steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  The latest update I have from the factory indicates
 that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to
 check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 It will be available soon (within one month would be
 my guess).  Does anyone
 else have a better guess?
 
 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they
 will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.
 
 Cheers
 Dennis
 
 Masoom Alam wrote:
  Hi every one,
  
  I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of
 the openmoko will be 
  available (seems a stupid question, as we can see
 a lot of posts on 
  the mailing list :)).
  Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this
 time, therefore asking 
  this question.
  
  Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to
 book an order for me 
  in advance now?
  
  Plus, I want to ship the latest version to
 Pakistan, any 
  recommendation in this regard?
  
  Regards,
  MM Alam
  
  
  
  
 

--
  --
  
  ___
  Openmoko community mailing list
  community@lists.openmoko.org
 
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
 
 - --
 - ---
 Dennis Wollersheim
 Lecturer, Health Information Management
 La Trobe University
 Bundoora Victoria 3086
 Room HS1:110
 (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
 0414 529 454 (mobile)
 http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
 - ---
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla -
 http://enigmail.mozdev.org
 

iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
 E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
 =GOB0
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread simarillion
Very good news, finally another milestone is done ;o)

Thank you Steve

Am Donnerstag 05 Juni 2008 17:12:42 schrieb steve:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

 It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does
 anyone else have a better guess?

 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
 Pakistan.

 Cheers
 Dennis

 Masoom Alam wrote:
  Hi every one,
 
  I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
  available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
  the mailing list :)).
  Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
  this question.
 
  Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
  in advance now?
 
  Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
  recommendation in this regard?
 
  Regards,
  MM Alam
 
 
 
 
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  --
 
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Re: Hardware Block Diagram

2008-06-05 Thread Jakob
may be you're looking for something like this:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:SimpleComponentDiagram.jpg
well it's quite simplified, but i just found that on the wiki..

On 6/5/08, Dale Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any block
 diagram of the Freerunner hardware.  Is there any such thing?  It would sure
 help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
 Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

 ...

 We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
 You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
 Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
 the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.

 | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why
 can't
 | DMA be used to copy data to it?

 DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
 it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.

 The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
 has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
 mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
 CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)



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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread ian douglas
Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen wrote:
   This is roughly the best news since hmm... i'm not entirely sure, since 
 some 
 really good news ;)

(insert political joke about the rumors of Hillary Clinton stepping down 
from the American presidential race on Friday...)

(and before that starts a flame war of any kind: I'm from Canada, but I 
live in the US and hate the 2-party system here)

Still, it's awesome news that the Freerunner is in mass production, w00t!

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Ilja O.
I can see death looking carefully at my piggy bank.
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Re: y-cable in action

2008-06-05 Thread Brad Midgley
Guys

 | I'm unable to test either of these with the verizon 3g/evdo usb
 | adapter... I don't have access to it this week :(

I did find one of these at the office... so it does work, woohoo. At
least with the AA supply. I'll test the AAA battery hub setup too when
I can.

I had to plug in the verizon adapter last or it wouldn't negotiate the
usb connection properly. It probably needs to see power and data
connections come online all at once.

I only now thought there might be times when you want to have neo
ignore the incoming power altogether to save the external battery some
life. I'll check to see if this is a soft setting.

 I did try this last week, I was able to see the mass storage device part
 of my 3G dongle OK, but not the GSM serial interfaces it exports
 despite fiddling with the kernel and adding the option driver

I had to add the usbserial module too... iirc the ppp modules were
already installed.

-- 
Brad

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Kosa




I'm soo happy tp read that!!

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

steve escribi:

   The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
  
  
Hi every one,

I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
the mailing list :)).
Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
this question.

Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
in advance now?

Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
recommendation in this regard?

Regards,
MM Alam




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London Groupsales

2008-06-05 Thread Johan Badenhorst
Hi there,

I was just wandering if there is any plan for how to go about the group
purchase for the London group (Half and half etc.)

Speed is the most important thing for me, so if the logistics are going to
mean that I don't get to play with my freerunner until mid August I might
seriously consider buying through Truebox, which is now saying that they
will start shipping Freerunners mid July for £272.  Now with conversion from
$$$.$$ to £££.££ things never make sense, so I am not sure whether this is a
good price or not (Logic means nothing when converting between currencies).

To summarise:
1.  Is there a plan for London groupsales?
2.  Any idea what the price per unit will be for groupsales in London (or,
will it be better than the Truebox price)?

And finally thanks for the good news!!  Mass Production:  Woohoo!
Ezuall
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Markus Bossert
Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer back 
in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And gouraud shading.


Mhmmm.

If wine happens to run on the om? :-D



Ken Young schrieb:

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.


Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

Ken Young


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( X )
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world domination.


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USA, East coast groupe order

2008-06-05 Thread Feydreva
It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
york.

New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?

I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in
VA.

Philippe
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Gianluigi
Alle 17:12, giovedì 5 giugno 2008, steve ha scritto:
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

So a switch is waiting only to be pushed on for make we mega - giga - tera - 
peta (and so on) happy?

-- 
Immortality consists largely of boredom.
-- Zefrem Cochrane, Metamorphosis, stardate 3219.8

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Re: y-cable in action

2008-06-05 Thread Mike Hodson
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Brad Midgley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I had to add the usbserial module too... iirc the ppp modules were
 already installed.

Just an FYI: make sure you have the AirPrime driver installed as well,
as the standard USBSerial does not have large enough data buffers for
high speed (greater than 60KB/s) data.

Mike

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Re: London Groupsales

2008-06-05 Thread Andy Selby
I was going to sign up with the London groupbuy, but nobody has
asserted themselves to be the main purchaser.

HantsLUG's  groupbuy is a more attractive prospect because it is
organized through an existing LUG and includes notable people such as
Andy Smith and Alan Pope so there's less chance of them running off
with your money.

Truebox's office's are within walking distance so I might get one from
them, but their domain was only registered in October 2007, I'm not
sure I'd trust them with an advance order, after all Steve mentioned
that they were not officially a reseller.

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Robert Taylor
You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...

... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.

I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically 
experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do 
something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.

Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be 
pulled out and replaced with a game pad?

This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew 
and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and 
level on this platform.

I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious 
proposition indeed.

- Robert

Markus Bossert wrote:
 Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer 
 back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And 
 gouraud shading.

 Mhmmm.

 If wine happens to run on the om? :-D




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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Marco Trevisan (Treviño)
kazaam wrote:
 Can someone here answer my question if at the moment v5 or v6 are produced?

According to the past thread v5 vs v6, they should be led-fixed-v5 
freerunners.

Anyway... Well, finally the GREAT news I was waiting for! :P

-- 
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http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread steffen
  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass
  Production (that means running the SMT line without stopping to
  check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

hmm...so where is GNU/Hurd? ... :D

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano
Ilja O. ha scritto:
 I can see death looking carefully at my piggy bank.
 


Wonderful news and hey i'm worried about your piggy bank, please please 
don't kill it!!! :D

Cya!

Pietro

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread Alexander Frøyseth

So the sale will begin soon then?
*Happy*

Alexander Frøyseth
steve skrev:

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
  

Hi every one,

I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
the mailing list :)).
Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
this question.


Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
in advance now?


Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
recommendation in this regard?


Regards,
MM Alam




--
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La Trobe University
Bundoora Victoria 3086
Room HS1:110
(03) 9479 1763 (bh)
0414 529 454 (mobile)
http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

2008-06-05 Thread David Samblas Martinez


Thanks, thanks to you all coreteam, fanboys, critical ones, wanabees and geeks 
in general, and any other kind of entity thanks you all to make it posible.

--- El jue, 5/6/08, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: Cleared to start Mass production
 Para: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' 
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 Fecha: jueves, 5 junio, 2008 5:12
 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that
 mass Production (
 that means running the SMT line without stopping to check
 stuff every two
 seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 Dennis
 Wollersheim
 Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 It will be available soon (within one month would be my
 guess).  Does anyone
 else have a better guess?
 
 You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be
 able to ship to
 Pakistan.
 
 Cheers
 Dennis
 
 Masoom Alam wrote:
  Hi every one,
  
  I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the
 openmoko will be 
  available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a
 lot of posts on 
  the mailing list :)).
  Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time,
 therefore asking 
  this question.
  
  Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book
 an order for me 
  in advance now?
  
  Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan,
 any 
  recommendation in this regard?
  
  Regards,
  MM Alam
  
  
  
  
 
 --
  --
  
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 Bundoora Victoria 3086
 Room HS1:110
 (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
 0414 529 454 (mobile)
 http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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 http://enigmail.mozdev.org
 
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Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.

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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

2008-06-05 Thread Lally Singh
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Feydreva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
 york.

 New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?

 I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in
 VA.

 Philippe

Indeed.  I'm in southwest va for school, but my family's right outside
DC.  A NY trip sounds fun.  Maybe we can ship to NY, then a few of us
can go up to NY for a weekend of good drinking  OM fun?


-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Stroller

On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
 On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
 On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
 to hold a stylus?

 Nooo!

 Stylii are EVIL!

 If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
 that app on my mobile phone!

 A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application  
 type and
 physical display size.

 That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger- 
 compatible (we
 also hate stylii),

I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be  
finger-compatible, but that ported applications are not sure to be  
optimised for finger use.

 _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
 who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to  
 operate
 with a stylus.

If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that  
doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an  
admission of defeat.

Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -  
going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the core  
distro and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers  
of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile  
Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,  
but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely  
to be finger-capable.

Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, oh, fingers  
don't matter.

There are a dozen smartphones out there that I can buy now with  
tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only  
by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number  
pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,  
or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because  
people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is  
an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will  
meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that  
combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps  
on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes  
the device less accessible.

Stroller.


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Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko

2008-06-05 Thread Flyin_bbb8
So wouldn't it be a main problem if we change the main applications like the
Dialer, the contacts etc? for example from GTK to Qtopia? other way
round or anything else?
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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Lally Singh
A quick look on google says that GPS is required for all cell phones
(well, E911 requires that 911 calls from cell phones also get the
coordinates, and operators didn't want to change all their towers, so
they started requiring their phones to have GPS).  Sadly, most phones
don't allow application access to that data, perhaps due to some
cost-saving measures (like stripping down the correlator, etc).

AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
satellite triangulation.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Tyrell Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm sorry if this question is completely ignorant, but I am always seeking
 understanding, and my previous understanding is inconsistant with the
 discussion here.

 I had originally believed 2 things.  First, that AGPS was required by law in
 all US cell phones (Possibly elsewhere).  And second, I had believed
 that AGPS was simply GPS with assistence from triangulating off of the GSM
 towers as well.  Meaning, I thought AGPS was a combination of satallite GPS
 and the sort of triangulation Google Maps does in the iPhone.

 Further, I thought I read a comment somewhere, maybe a year ago, maybe
 more, (And I can't find the reference now) to the effect of because the neo
 is required to have an AGPS chip, we will be giving the user access.

 And so I guess my question is, is it legal to operate the Neo without AGPS?
 And is there more (Or less) functionality coming from the assist portion of
 the AGPS?

 In all fairness, I have been confused before, and I will be confused again.
 I hope my ignorance hasn't opened up a larger can of worms...  Thank you in
 advance for your response.
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H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

2008-06-05 Thread Michael
hi all,

i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard 
(openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical classification. but i 
dont find it :( 

is it possible to change?
how i can change this?

michael

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Lally Singh
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
 compatible (we
 also hate stylii),

 I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
 finger-compatible, but that ported applications are not sure to be
 optimised for finger use.

 _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
 who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
 operate
 with a stylus.

 If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
 doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
 admission of defeat.

 Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
 going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the core
 distro and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
 of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
 Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
 but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
 to be finger-capable.

 Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, oh, fingers
 don't matter.

 There are a dozen smartphones out there that I can buy now with
 tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only
 by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number
 pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,
 or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because
 people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is
 an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will
 meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that
 combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps
 on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
 the device less accessible.


I'm no fan of the You can only have it my way, not your way, and not
both idea.  Especially for open devices.

But, for the topic at hand:  My Treo 650 has a stylus, and I pull it
out for certain apps (Bejeweled and several other games come to mind).
 My day-to-day applications don't require one at all.

Certain mobile apps are worth pulling out a stylus for, and they're
better for it.

There's no need to ban an input device in fear of abuse on an open
system. Any decent app that people like, that mistakenly requires a
stylus, will get patched pretty quick.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

2008-06-05 Thread Richard Reichenbacher
Flick the screen up or down.
On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Michael wrote:

 hi all,

 i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard
 (openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical  
 classification. but i
 dont find it :(

 is it possible to change?
 how i can change this?

 michael

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Re: London Groupsales

2008-06-05 Thread Ben Fleming-Williams
Andy Selby wrote:
 I was going to sign up with the London groupbuy, but nobody has
 asserted themselves to be the main purchaser.
   
I'd be willing to do this, with suitable safeguards of course. However, 
I'm number 11 on the list of (currently) 14, so we'd have to work out 
who actually gets one somehow. Might have to be restricted to those who 
can actually come into London in person.

I'm aware that I'm far from notable, and therefore liable to abscond at 
the drop of a stylus. So I'll email round over the weekend and see 
whether 9 are willing to take the risk (and what safeguards we can put 
in place on both sides).

Cheers,

Ben

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Thursday 05 June 2008 23:14:41 Stroller wrote:
 On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
  On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
  On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
  Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
  to hold a stylus?
 
  Nooo!
 
  Stylii are EVIL!
 
  If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
  that app on my mobile phone!
 
  A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application
  type and
  physical display size.
 
  That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
  compatible (we
  also hate stylii),

 I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
 finger-compatible, but that ported applications are not sure to be
 optimised for finger use.

Yes, that's what I wanted to express with the double negation.

  _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
  who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
  operate
  with a stylus.

 If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
 doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
 admission of defeat.

Of course, we dream about beautiful consistent interfaces. The same dream that 
the Linux desktop world is dreaming, alas it didn't happen in the last couple 
of decades.

The Openmoko dream is also about emporing users to realize _their_ ideas of 
applications. If these require a stylus, not including a compartment for one 
is counterproductive.

 Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
 going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the core
 distro and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
 of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
 Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
 but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
 to be finger-capable.

 Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, oh, fingers
 don't matter.

I guess we just disagree here.

 Enable anyone to install extra apps
 on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
 the device less accessible.

Show me a finger-sized on-screen keyboard for a terminal application where you 
don't have to switch between dozens of layouts to get to the full set of 
characters. Then we can talk again.

:M:

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:05:47 Mark wrote:
  Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST
  2008
 
  Hi.
  
  flexd schrieb:
   Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
   On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 Lally Singh lally.singh at
   gmail.com babbled:
  
   the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take
   an interest :)
  
   To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
   not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
   couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
  There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
  non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
  gfx people care much more.
  
   Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
   love it!
  
  Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.
  
  Regards
  Robert
 
  If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
  obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
  unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.

 Not at all obvious to me.

 :M:

I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
it is open.

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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

2008-06-05 Thread Feydreva
Hum.. I was just expecting one of the NY guy to send it by mail ...
Even if the Week end in new york seems appealing :)

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Feydreva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
  york.
 
  New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?
 
  I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone
 in
  VA.
 
  Philippe

 Indeed.  I'm in southwest va for school, but my family's right outside
 DC.  A NY trip sounds fun.  Maybe we can ship to NY, then a few of us
 can go up to NY for a weekend of good drinking  OM fun?


 --
 H. Lally Singh
 Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
 Virginia Tech

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread Feydreva
a stylus is a another thing to loose... I do NOT want to be Dependant on a
stylus...

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
  On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
  On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
  Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
  to hold a stylus?
 
  Nooo!
 
  Stylii are EVIL!
 
  If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
  that app on my mobile phone!
 
  A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application
  type and
  physical display size.
 
  That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
  compatible (we
  also hate stylii),

 I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
 finger-compatible, but that ported applications are not sure to be
 optimised for finger use.

  _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
  who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
  operate
  with a stylus.

 If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
 doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
 admission of defeat.

 Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
 going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the core
 distro and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
 of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
 Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
 but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
 to be finger-capable.

 Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, oh, fingers
 don't matter.

 There are a dozen smartphones out there that I can buy now with
 tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only
 by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number
 pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,
 or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because
 people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is
 an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will
 meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that
 combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps
 on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
 the device less accessible.

 Stroller.


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Lally Singh
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
 it is open.

Open's great.  But Open+Powerful would also be nice.  I can't be the
only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list.
*sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile
devices.  Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some
little modules for this kind of stuff.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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USB connectors on FreeRunner Hostmode

2008-06-05 Thread Jeremiah Flerchinger
It's my understanding that the SC32442B in the FreeRunner has a host
controller that can support 2 peripherals (I found a link to the manual
today  updated in the wiki).  Is there just the 1 external connector or
are there additional pins or connectors internal to the FreeRunner that
can be easily used to connect a second peripheral device?




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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
 AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
 onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
 for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
 satellite triangulation.

It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the 
receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all 
possible channels and download the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and 
alm in uBlox paper.

[1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference 
receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in 
sub-meter accuracy.

Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after 
typing the above.

/j


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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Lally Singh
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
 AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
 onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
 for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
 satellite triangulation.

 It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the
 receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all
 possible channels and download the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and
 alm in uBlox paper.

 [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference
 receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in
 sub-meter accuracy.

 Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after
 typing the above.

Ah, my mistake.  I was hoping for more than just an almanac/ephem
upload.  I'm a lot less excited now.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread Robert Taylor
Lally Singh wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
 it is open.
 

 Open's great.  But Open+Powerful would also be nice.  I can't be the
 only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list.
 *sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile
 devices.  Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some
 little modules for this kind of stuff.

   
Well, why don't we FIRST help them make this a  smashing success of such 
proporitions that it will make manufacturers sit up and take notice?

Everyone has seen what the EEEPC has done, and now everyone and their 
dog now have a subnotebook with a linux distro on it in the span of 
what, 8months or so?  Hell, Acer of all companies just announced a 
majour Linux push on their laptops .. THE LAST company on the face of 
the planet I expected to do so.

AMD opened up the ATI gpu spec sheet recently - I have no idea if ATI 
has any inclination to get into making gpus for these sorts of devices, 
but if they did we potentially have one very real manufacturer that 
already drinks the coolaid that could potentially step in and fill the 
need if it can be demonstrated that the open platform is the way to go.

I appreciate what everyone is saying, but the success of the moko isn't 
only dependent on the manufacturer doing their best to get as powerfull 
a device out as possible, it depends on us early adopters having vision 
to see what this is, why it is SO IMPORTANT and help build buzz around 
it.  Mokos success is our success which is success for freedom - one 
device and one model at a time. 

I just think there is a danger to focusing on the negatives instead of 
positives here in terms of buzz - nothing is EVER perfect in any way so 
its a matter of seeing the glass as half full. 

- Rob

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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

2008-06-05 Thread Paul Buede
Count me in. 

Feydreva wrote:
 It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in
 New york.

 New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?

 I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the
 phone in VA.

 Philippe


 

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

2008-06-05 Thread W.Kenworthy
As I have short, fat fingers stylii are are a neccessay evil - I find
fingers on most smart phones a pain.

The only evilness my stylii have is a propensity to hide when they are
really needed! - they are so so much faster than my fingers on a treo650
for instance :)  And trying to use the dialler is almost impossible with
my fingers.

This is something I cant see on the freerunner so I presume it does not
have a built in stylus/stylus house?

Billk



and becauseOn Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:04 +0100, Stroller wrote:
 On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 
  Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
  to hold a stylus?
 
 Nooo!
 
 Stylii are EVIL!
 
 If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for  
 that app on my mobile phone!
 
 vi FTW!
 
 Stroller.
 
 
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Re: USB connectors on FreeRunner Hostmode

2008-06-05 Thread Joachim Steiger
Jeremiah Flerchinger wrote:
 It's my understanding that the SC32442B in the FreeRunner has a host
 controller that can support 2 peripherals (I found a link to the manual
 today  updated in the wiki).  Is there just the 1 external connector or
 are there additional pins or connectors internal to the FreeRunner that
 can be easily used to connect a second peripheral device?

its used for bluetooth.

its connected via a flexible pcb and fixed on top of the soc-shielding.
the flexible part the wraps around the mainpcb and connects to it from
the lcm side.

see http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/a/a4/Gta02a5_pcba_ps.JPG

the connector labeled with 'H-BTFPC01'

since usb is kinda 'point to point' you could/must add a hub to keep bt
working.

kind regards

-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Boulder Colorado group sale

2008-06-05 Thread Vinc Duran
Hello,
If you're in the Boulder, Colorado area consider joining our group. We're up
to five buyers. We may join forces with Tuscon, AZ. Please
contact me or add your name to
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Boulder.
I can make the purchase and do local delivery.
Vinc
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San Diego and LA group sales

2008-06-05 Thread Kosa
Hi guys,

Well, as some of you know I'm from México,
and I'm not being very succesfull about
making a group to buy a 10 pack. I'm sure
some of my friends will buy a Freerunner
when I show them what we can do with it,
but right now I almost alone here.

I was wondering if we could join LA, San
Diego groups and myself, wich right now
makes 3 + 5 + 2, as I'm willing to buy two
of them. That would make a 10 pack already.

I have a friend living in Tijuana and he
might go to San Diego to pick them up.He's
coming to the Mexico City, where I live, on
June 23th and it would be great if the store
opens before that, but if it doesn't we
might find a way to make this work.

Thanks for even considering this.

And thank you all for making this waiting as
fun and interesting as it has been. I'm not
sure about the words to use, but I just wanna
let you know that I've smiled (of joy) a lot
of times reading your posts. Some of them
have been with me for days and weeks. Some
of the things I've read here has surpiresed
me as very few things before.


Thank you very very very much.

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

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Re: Hardware Block Diagram

2008-06-05 Thread BrendaWang
Here is the detail spec of GTA02
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware

Dale Schumacher 提到:

 I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any 
 block diagram of the Freerunner hardware. Is there any such thing? It 
 would sure help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
 Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo 

 ...

 We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
 You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now
 via the
 Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it. WIFI is hooked to
 the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.

 | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and
 why can't
 | DMA be used to copy data to it?

 DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did
 something with
 it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.

 The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use,
 but it
 has a bunch of timing constraints. (There is a synchronous burst bus
 mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
 CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)


 

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 
  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
  since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
  pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
  the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
 
 Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
 future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
 Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
 is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480...
in 3.2 screens! totally nuts!

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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resolution preferences??

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:


  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e
  going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to
  fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
  worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
 

 Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320?

qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240,
432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :)

 I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability.
 OTOH it would also

but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8 vga
or 2.8 qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc.

also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a
decent physical size.

i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen
would be an ok compromise.

 - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes

one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the
long-run.

 - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight
 (granny won't be affected ;-)
 
 Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my
 GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly
 cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such)
 My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for
 those I'd rather go for resolution.

again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in
many ways graphically :)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:00 +0200 Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have
 misunderstood previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached
 to the CPU's SDIO interface. You can understand where I was coming from now!

:)

 Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of
 getting on with something else while the DMA occurs.
 
 Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't
 because of any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith
 a little. :-)

glamo is a fairly old graphics cpu and design. frankly it was designed for qvga
- at best. it CAN do vga, but that is beyond its intended use. we have pushed
it much farther than smedia intended it to be - even smedia is amazed at the
bus speeds we get to the glamo - they have never seen it so fast.

glamo turned up primarily for 2 reasons.

1. we added wifi - and we just didn't have any other (good) interfaces (we can
sit and discuss spi all u like right now - but lets hold that thought). so we
needed to use up our sdio port for... wifi - but where will we stick the actual
sd card? glamo came with its own sd interface - bonus, so we get that back
again.

2. refresh. we run a vga screen. 640x480x70x2 - 41mb/sec ... JUST to refresh
the screen. we lost 41mb/sec of memory bandwidth just to keep the screen
displaying on the gta01. vga was by far pushing what the soc can do. literally
that is a huge amount of the bandwidth we had left (as its reads only and we
clock @ 100mhz for the bus clock on the gta02, it's be about 20% of memory
bandwidth gone). the glamo removes that drain and gives u back bandwidth... but
at another cost - the glamo's own bus and the extra work to write acceleration
to keep as much on the glamo as possible. we definitely don't do everything we
can on the glamo - but there is only so much time and development effort to go
around. as such we only really knew what the glamo was like once we had it
going reasonably, and by then - it's too late. glamo is in. it's not going away
as there just is no alternative.

so solutions could be: ditch vga, go to qvga, thus dropping mem bandwidth loss
to 10mb/sec (1/4 of what it was), and now have to drive only 1/2 the pixels in
software. end result would be much lower dpi, but much smoother and nicer
performance. but then go all the cries of i must have vga!!! (though i wonder
just how many people have good enough eyesight to really tell the difference).

if we want to live in the realms of such high resolution, imho, we need to look
very carefully at a high-end soc with good on-board graphics acceleration, but
that would have put the freerunner on hold as a product for a looong time. so
you would all still be waiting and waiting. no one would be talking of
production runs right now! :)

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at
vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try it
when you get one! :)

at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or older
ones are at least...

 You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...
 
 ... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.
 
 I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically 
 experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do 
 something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.
 
 Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be 
 pulled out and replaced with a game pad?
 
 This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew 
 and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and 
 level on this platform.
 
 I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious 
 proposition indeed.
 
 - Robert
 
 Markus Bossert wrote:
  Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer 
  back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And 
  gouraud shading.
 
  Mhmmm.
 
  If wine happens to run on the om? :-D
 
 
 
 
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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

   Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
  it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
  think and the FreeRunner should be faster.
 
 don't be so sure about that! :)
 
 Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973
  FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking)

i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a
gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't.

 Rahul J
 
 
 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 Pietro \m0nt0\ Montorfano
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
   thomasg ha scritto:
Hi list,
   
there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the
change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos,
  too.
So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it
behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
   
I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1]
(that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely
doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the
softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look
  alike.
Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16
MB, ~3.5 min)
I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500
kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
   
P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
  
   Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
   it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
   think and the FreeRunner should be faster.
 
  don't be so sure about that! :)
 
   I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us
   keep the freerunner in our hands :D
  
   Cya!!
  
   Pietro
  
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Re: keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

2008-06-05 Thread The Rasterman
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:51:53 +0200 Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 hi all,
 
 i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard 
 (openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical classification. but i 
 dont find it :( 
 
 is it possible to change?
 how i can change this?

slide finger up the keyboard (down is enter, left is backspace, right is
space and start new word).

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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Flyin_bbb8
actually i believe it does help in much better accuracy (unless if you're
indoors)

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:11 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
  AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
  onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
  for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
  satellite triangulation.
 
  It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell
 the
  receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all
  possible channels and download the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem
 and
  alm in uBlox paper.
 
  [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference
  receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in
  sub-meter accuracy.
 
  Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just
 after
  typing the above.

 Ah, my mistake.  I was hoping for more than just an almanac/ephem
 upload.  I'm a lot less excited now.

 --
 H. Lally Singh
 Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
 Virginia Tech

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Re: GPS -- AGPS

2008-06-05 Thread Flyin_bbb8
just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems to
get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
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