[no subject]

2008-06-10 Thread Ken Young
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 this is a core part of my point. i stare at this screen every day.
 i know its dpi. most people imho will never make use of such a dpi
 as they literally can't see it - they will NEED to use much bigger
 fonts just to see something other than a blur. thus the resolution
 usefulness degrades rapidly. the but i can't do 80x24 without vga
 is moot as it is a blur, unless you go up to a font size
 where all you can fit is 60 wide or less.

I stare at my neo1973, which has the same screen, every day.   I also
use a Treo 700p daily.   The treo has a 320 x 320 pixel screen, which
is larger than QVGA.   If I run the terminal application which comes
with the neo's gtk software stack, switch to landscape orientation, go
to full screen and reduce the font size by two zoom levels, I have
a terminal application which will show 85 columns with 25 lines, and
a perfectly legible font.   The difference between the neo's display
and my Treo's display (which can display 80 columns with a 4 pixel wide
font) IS DRAMATIC.   This is not a case of the VGA screen looking
a little better.   This is not me kidding myself about the quality
of my eyesight.   There is a dramatic difference between VGA and QVGA.
I wish I knew how to take a screenshot off of my Treo.   I'd set up a
wiki page with the images, and then there would be no more discussion
of this, I think.   Anyone with decent eyesight would see the difference.
If someone can email me with instructions about how to do a screen
grab with PalmOS, I'll make a comparison page.

 maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and
 they might begin to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and
 not as bad as they think.  the things you want to do are possible at
 lower resolutions.

I'd venture to guess that most of the people on this list who have
posted an opinion about this have used cell phones with lower resolution
screens.   I have - I use one every day.   Do you really think the
consumers who are afflicted with featuritis, who care only about bragging
to their friends about how slick there phones are, are hanging around
waiting for the Freerunner?   Take a look at the iphone which was anounced
yesterday.   Its hardware is superior, in every aspect (except the screen,
but you appear to be working on fixing that) to the Freerunner's.
It costs $199 (I know Apple extracts money later via the service
contract).   Anyone with even the mildest case of featuritis is going to
buy something like *that*.   The people who are going to buy the Freerunner
are persons who want to see cell phones take a different path.And,
though this sounds pretentious, I think the people who are reading the OM
discussion lists, waiting impatiently to buy a Freerunner, know a lot more
about cell phones than the average consumer.If these people are
telling you they want VGA, not QVGA, I don't think you should just assume
they have no idea what they really want.

 browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have
 suggested, is really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its
 usefulness. web pages are designed for 14 or 17 screens or so.
 squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh
 madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the
 factor (imho) :)

Why is it that viewing web pages, which are designed for 14 or 17
screens is nigh madness, but viewing videos or movies, which are
designed for even larger displays, somehow makes sense to you?

Ken Young


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comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Ron K. Jeffries
[I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?

iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
free and open source) how does
the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
compare with Freerunner GTA02.

where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
high capacity microSD flash card to match
iPhone flash capacity

are these assertions correct?

Apple has:

-- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
-- faster processor
-- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)
-- 2 megapixel camera
-- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

the two smart phones are aprox equal on
-- wi-fi
-- accelerometer
-- bluetooth

Ron K. Jeffries
http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
 
 We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the
 next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so
 the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting
 a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better
 option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision.

i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only
thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm
subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera.

don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as long as i have been able to.
i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have insisted on laptops
with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny fonts and high dpi
screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have noticed a tendency to be
the only one in the room who can read it.

i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was playing with a phone
last week with one on it. but practical factors may just not allow it. if you
wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at a good price, then
go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just can't happen. same
with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to get gfx support to run
such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you won't get the best of
components in every possible way due to the nature of what is being done here.
we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to be made.

what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can
see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the
difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible,
impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people
saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience
over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many
people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised.

 On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
  
  not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is
  vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to
  go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't
  change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we
  may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something
  will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice
  there below vga.
  
   How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version 
   with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain 
   there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels.
   
   Regards
   Peter Kraker
   
   Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
   
  
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
   

we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
given. too
bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
trying to
dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just
want higher
specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
scenarios that
make real sense. :)

This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
potential customer who says
I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
several here on this list,
if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
  
no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management
to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast).
they come first. you users come second. in the end if product
management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then
so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument
against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop
a feature. 
   
note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a
product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks
pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop
being possible
   
i know:
   
1. u may need to scroll more
2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need
to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity
3. some things requiring text displays like 

RE: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Richard Reichenbacher
It's 8GB not 4 and it's $199 with a 2yr contract.  Regular retail prices
have yet to be announced.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron K. Jeffries
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 10:38 PM
To: OpenMoko
Subject: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

 


[I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?

iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of 
free and open source) how does 
the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
compare with Freerunner GTA02.

where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy 
high capacity microSD flash card to match 
iPhone flash capacity

are these assertions correct?

Apple has:

-- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
-- faster processor
-- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)
-- 2 megapixel camera
-- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

the two smart phones are aprox equal on
-- wi-fi
-- accelerometer 
-- bluetooth

Ron K. Jeffries
http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries



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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
|
| [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?
|
| iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
| on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of

Yep, just sticking to hardware...

| free and open source) how does
| the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB

Appears to be 8GB.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html

| compare with Freerunner GTA02.
|
| where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
| has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy

FWIW from link above:

''480-by-320-pixel resolution at 163 ppi''

So they only have half the physical pixels of GTA02.

- -Andy
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1w4An1fdpJvnuNui7xJfAH26ZQl6iBr7
=jPrB
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Re: SMT is running!

2008-06-10 Thread Gianluigi
Alle 03:39, martedì 10 giugno 2008, steve ha scritto:
  So I got word from the factory that we have our date.

  And we got the line.

  And parts are being planted on boards this week.

  I know it's been a long wait for everybody, but the stone is almost to the
 top of the hill.

Greats!!!
Now we are all looking for the Rolling Stones!

-- 
Respect is a rational process
-- McCoy, The Galileo Seven, stardate 2822.3

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Rahul Joshi
3G iPhone coverage:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/wwdc-2008-coverage-roundup-the-iphone-3g-has-landed/

Its a good phone. extended Office functionality is missing though. $199 is
just too good a price to beat.

Rahul J

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Richard Reichenbacher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  It's 8GB not 4 and it's $199 with a 2yr contract.  Regular retail prices
 have yet to be announced.



 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Ron K. Jeffries
 *Sent:* Monday, June 09, 2008 10:38 PM
 *To:* OpenMoko
 *Subject:* comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02




 [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?

 iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
 on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
 free and open source) how does
 the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
 compare with Freerunner GTA02.

 where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
 has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
 high capacity microSD flash card to match
 iPhone flash capacity

 are these assertions correct?

 Apple has:

 -- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
 -- faster processor
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)
 -- 2 megapixel camera
 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

 the two smart phones are aprox equal on
 -- wi-fi
 -- accelerometer
 -- bluetooth

 Ron K. Jeffries
 http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries


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Acceleration in our pockets

2008-06-10 Thread David Samblas Martinez

I have seen it this morning in the planet.openmoko.com, 
http://unadventure.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/accelerating-in-my-pocket/
Andrzej balrog-kun Zaborowski was able to use mplayer with glamo hardware 
acceleration 
Not all is lost to have some decent(not excelent but barelly usable is enough) 
video playback, or Rasterman has bad news again? ;)

Of course I understand than use sd-card as storage will be not an option(shared 
bus issue) but a nfs mounted volume or a streaming mp4 source can be an option 
I guess






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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:37:33 -0700 Ron K. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?
 
 iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
 on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
 free and open source) how does
 the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
 compare with Freerunner GTA02.
 
 where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
 has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
 high capacity microSD flash card to match
 iPhone flash capacity
 
 are these assertions correct?
 
 Apple has:
 
 -- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
 -- faster processor
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)
 -- 2 megapixel camera
 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

the 3g iphone is significantly better in all tech specs except screen
resolution (the screen is bigger on the iphone and i think it is easier to see
in sunlight). the freerunner screen is much smaller and much higher dpi.
iphone is 320x480 and 3.5 (163dpi), freerunner is 480x640 and 2.8 (285dpi.

freerunner only has 256m flash, iphone (3g) has 8 or 16g. both have 128m ram.
iphone's memory bus will be much faster though as well as the cpu being faster.
freerunner has a usb1.1 connection, iphone is usb2.

as you said eblow - they are about equal with the below items, yes.

 the two smart phones are aprox equal on
 -- wi-fi
 -- accelerometer
 -- bluetooth
 
 Ron K. Jeffries
 http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
 


-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread kenneth marken
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 07:37:33 Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)

i do belive the iphone is lower dpi as the GTA02 is smaller in size, but 
higher in rez.

 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

that is probably just the heat sensitive screen and some code that basically 
locks out input ones a heat source with a surface area larger then a couple 
of fingers are detected...

 -- bluetooth

while the iphone got a update in the bluetooth area (i dont think the first 
one was EDR) im not sure about what profiles the iphone will support. i dont 
recall reading that it supports AD2P for starters, and i wonder about any 
chance of tethering so that it can be used as a modem for laptops and 
similar.

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Kalle Happonen
Hello,
I won't coment on the techical specs, but the pricing is in no way 
comparable. The iPhone v2 might be 199$, but that's with a 2 year ATT 
subscription. If you want a real comparison of the real device price, at 
least double the iPhone price. There was some country where Apple had to 
sell the original iPhone separately too because of the law (france? 
gremany?), and then it was priced 799€ or thereabouts iirc. So to 
compare the actual phone price, I think iPhone is even more expensive.

Cheers,
Kalle

Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

 [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?

 iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
 on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
 free and open source) how does
 the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
 compare with Freerunner GTA02.

 where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
 has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
 high capacity microSD flash card to match
 iPhone flash capacity

 are these assertions correct?

 Apple has:

 -- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
 -- faster processor
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same dpi?)
 -- 2 megapixel camera
 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

 the two smart phones are aprox equal on
 -- wi-fi
 -- accelerometer
 -- bluetooth

 Ron K. Jeffries
 http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries


 

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Re: resolution preferences??

2008-06-10 Thread Sander van Grieken
 On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:51:58 + (UTC) elektrolott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:

 The only reason for me considering the Freerunner is the VGA display. I don't
 car much about videos on portable devices, but I want a sharp large screen
 for navigation (maps), browsing (www), reading/composing (email).

 If people want video devices they can get plenty devices out there, but there
 is no device available with the display specs of the Freerunner. Keep it that
 way!

Indeed.

Carsten, you said you want a technical reason to stick with VGA, which you 
think is
overkill, but the overwhelming response here on the list, like this message, is 
that VGA
resolution is a must.

I think it's more important to make what your customers want, instead of what is
'sufficient', and almost all of your customers want VGA.

Smooth animations and 30 fps fullscreen is nice-to-have for me, but not 
essential. For
me, super sharp maps and fonts are a big selling point, together with the 
openness.

For future devices, I'd rather see a better SoC that can drive VGA than 
downgrading to QVGA

 lots of devices out there with the same specs - or much better. 800x480 @3.2
 or even 2.8 are out there and selling. on shelves - from major manufacturers.

Irrelevant, they're not open.

grtz,
Sander



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Re: resolution preferences??

2008-06-10 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 02:45:20 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 lots of devices out there with the same specs - or much better. 800x480
 @3.2 or even 2.8 are out there and selling. on shelves - from major
 manufacturers.

Show me one with GSM and Linux.



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Re: Acceleration in our pockets

2008-06-10 Thread Andy Green
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

| I have seen it this morning in the planet.openmoko.com,
| http://unadventure.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/accelerating-in-my-pocket/
|  Andrzej balrog-kun Zaborowski was able to use mplayer with glamo
| hardware acceleration Not all is lost to have some decent(not
| excelent but barelly usable is enough) video playback, or Rasterman
| has bad news again? ;)
|
| Of course I understand than use sd-card as storage will be not an
| option(shared bus issue) but a nfs mounted volume or a streaming mp4
| source can be an option I guess

Wah that was really good progress from Andrzej.

I wouldn't give up on SD card as storage without trying it: if I
understood what goes on then only the MP4 compressed stream is being
sent to the Glamo by mplayer... I guess it means 100 - 200KBytes/sec
which is way below the point we choke the Glamo memory bus.  So we
should be able to be pulling 200 - 300KBytes/sec (including audio) at
the same from from SD.

The wildcard is what the MPEG decoder unit in the Glamo is doing from
the inside in terms of hogging the internal memory.

- -Andy
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=VD6u
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
  i've fairly amazed at the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my  
 experience over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i  
 didn't know how many people really could see the difference AND make use  
 of it. i'm surprised.


well, i think there's a relation between the screensize the neo offers and  
the people interested to buy.
means: if those people, count me in, look for a smartphone/pda they look  
for big resolution to show tiny details and put as much information as  
possible on the screen.
i use a treo650 for years now and a 270 before and am always annoyed by  
the lack of resolution forcing me to use rather big fonts because no small  
fonts exist (the would be nothing but a blur).

so, what i say is, people with that good eyesight may be a small part of  
the crowd, but the crowd around the openmoko (especially if the like open  
and free ;-).

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latest stable rootfs and kernel

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja
A request - can anyone identify the latest stable kernel and rootfs (ASU and
GTK) for the Freerunner and Neo 1973. I have trying them from 10 june
backwards and almost all of them crash after booting or cannot make phone
calls.

thanks

Rakshat
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
 It's 8GB not 4 and it's $199 with a 2yr contract.  Regular retail prices
 have yet to be announced.

as i understand, 199 is apple's price -- providers may subsidise the  
iphone, too.

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Re: SMT is running!

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
  I know it's been a long wait for everybody, but the stone is almost to  
 the
 top of the hill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

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Re: resolution preferences??

2008-06-10 Thread Ilja O.
I'm sorry to break into your nice flamewar, but I've just wanted to ask:

pro-QVGA people, are you serious?

In two years (yep, that's when GTA03 will be released judging by GTA01-02)
QVGA will be just like floppy drives on notebooks - totally non completive.
And won't be because everybody *really needs* =VGA resolution and can't
survive with lower one. It will be just because everybody on the block is
hi-res. Same thing happened lots times in IT: remember ATA to SATA switch?
Do you really think that home users wouldn't be able to stick with good old
ATA?

Quard core processors?
New sockets?
Usb 2.0  1.1 ?
You think that we couldn't live without these upgrades?

Making fonts bigger via lowering the screen resolution is total nonsense.
And hi-res tranflective screens will be available in less than a year.

Btw, QVGA won't cost much less (it doesn't now and in two years it could be,
in fact, more expensive than VGA).
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Rahul Joshi
In comparison to other phones on similar subscription plans $199 is quite a
steal.
That never ending list of specs! I'm no appleguy but I gotta hand it to 3G.

Rahul J

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Kalle Happonen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hello,
 I won't coment on the techical specs, but the pricing is in no way
 comparable. The iPhone v2 might be 199$, but that's with a 2 year ATT
 subscription. If you want a real comparison of the real device price, at
 least double the iPhone price. There was some country where Apple had to
 sell the original iPhone separately too because of the law (france?
 gremany?), and then it was priced 799€ or thereabouts iirc. So to
 compare the actual phone price, I think iPhone is even more expensive.

 Cheers,
 Kalle

 Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 
  [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?
 
  iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
  on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
  free and open source) how does
  the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
  compare with Freerunner GTA02.
 
  where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
  has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
  high capacity microSD flash card to match
  iPhone flash capacity
 
  are these assertions correct?
 
  Apple has:
 
  -- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
  -- faster processor
  -- larger physical screen size (but about the same dpi?)
  -- 2 megapixel camera
  -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)
 
  the two smart phones are aprox equal on
  -- wi-fi
  -- accelerometer
  -- bluetooth
 
  Ron K. Jeffries
  http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
 
 
  
 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread David Samblas Martinez
Hi Carsten

I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.

You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long 
thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution 
question only) 

I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as 
you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the 
perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this decision 
is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will 
change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it 
well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more 
res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff and other 
more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more 
for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can 
coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

 
But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko 
decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), 

--- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
 Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
 CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43
 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
  I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
  
  We should be going forward with specs, not backward.
 By the time the
  next revisions come there'll be a whole new
 generation of hardware so
  the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone
 mentioned getting
  a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that
 that's a much better
  option. But it sounds like you've already made the
 decision.
 
 i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much
 more. right now the only
 thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc.
 just different gsm
 subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
 added camera.
 
 don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as
 long as i have been able to.
 i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have
 insisted on laptops
 with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny
 fonts and high dpi
 screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have
 noticed a tendency to be
 the only one in the room who can read it.
 
 i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was
 playing with a phone
 last week with one on it. but practical factors may just
 not allow it. if you
 wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at
 a good price, then
 go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just
 can't happen. same
 with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to
 get gfx support to run
 such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers.
 and that is not
 somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you
 won't get the best of
 components in every possible way due to the nature of what
 is being done here.
 we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to
 be made.
 
 what people have been saying here is that they have
 excellent eyesight and can
 see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of
 it. like really see the
 difference and be able to do things with that res that
 would be not possible,
 impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at
 the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast
 to my experience
 over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i
 didn't know how many
 people really could see the difference AND make use of it.
 i'm surprised.
 
  On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler
 wrote:
   On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   babbled:
   
   not going to happen - that's 2 product runs.
 expensive to maintain. gta03 is
   vga right now - unless there is a very big push
 to qvga. it is possible to
   go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on
 hardware, but it won't
   change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's
 an open book and who knows - we
   may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in
 fact very likely something
   will be a lower res in later products as there is
 just so much more choice
   there below vga.
   
How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with
 QVGA and GTA03V version 
with VGA screen, if those two are indeed
 very similar ? I'm certain 
there are enough of us geeks ready to give
 up some glitter for pixels.

Regards
Peter Kraker

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
 On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Steven Le Roux
it's not 199$... cause it's a subsidized phone...

try to get it without any operator contract... at 199$ ;)

2008/6/10 Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 3G iPhone coverage:
 http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/wwdc-2008-coverage-roundup-the-iphone-3g-has-landed/

 Its a good phone. extended Office functionality is missing though. $199 is
 just too good a price to beat.

 Rahul J

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Richard Reichenbacher 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  It's 8GB not 4 and it's $199 with a 2yr contract.  Regular retail prices
 have yet to be announced.



 *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Ron K. Jeffries
 *Sent:* Monday, June 09, 2008 10:38 PM
 *To:* OpenMoko
 *Subject:* comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02




 [I trust this will not initiate a flame war.] Please?

 iPhone v2 announced today. I'd like to understand
 on a hardware basis ONLY (I grok the value of
 free and open source) how does
 the entry level $199 iPhone with 4GB
 compare with Freerunner GTA02.

 where I get lost is how much RAM iPhone
 has vs Freerunner. I realize I can buy
 high capacity microSD flash card to match
 iPhone flash capacity

 are these assertions correct?

 Apple has:

 -- 3G data [much faster than Freeruner's GPRS]
 -- faster processor
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)
 -- 2 megapixel camera
 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

 the two smart phones are aprox equal on
 -- wi-fi
 -- accelerometer
 -- bluetooth

 Ron K. Jeffries
 http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Wilkinson, Alex
0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 

we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions
means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not

Curious, why is that ?

 -aW

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Ilja O.
About data wipe:

I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?

Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS message
receiving.


If you have several SIM cards, than we could create simple SIM card
whilelist.
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Raphael Wimmer
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:45:18 +0200, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:

 On Tuesday 10 June 2008 07:37:33 Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)

 i do belive the iphone is lower dpi as the GTA02 is smaller in size, but
 higher in rez.

 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

 that is probably just the heat sensitive screen and some code that  
 basically locks out input ones a heat source with a surface area larger
 then a couple of fingers are detected...
[...]

It's just the capacitive touch screen. I'm pretty sure no temperature  
sensor is involved. As you said ,you just measure the contact area between  
finger and screen (which is easily possible with capacitive touch screens)  
- and once the contact area gets larger than let's say 3cm you assume that  
your ear/cheek is in contact with the screen.

Raphael

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
I suppose the cell phone number should be more then unique enough.


On 6/10/08, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 About data wipe:

 I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
 And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?

 Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS message
 receiving.


 If you have several SIM cards, than we could create simple SIM card
 whilelist.


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Iphone proximity sensor (was: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02)

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
Or you just use an infrared proximity sensor. I was thinking it might
be possible to do the same on the Freerunner with the accelerometers.

On 6/10/08, Raphael Wimmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:45:18 +0200, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

 On Tuesday 10 June 2008 07:37:33 Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
 -- larger physical screen size (but about the same  dpi?)

 i do belive the iphone is lower dpi as the GTA02 is smaller in size, but
 higher in rez.

 -- proximity sensor (knows when held to face, can dim screen)

 that is probably just the heat sensitive screen and some code that
 basically locks out input ones a heat source with a surface area larger
 then a couple of fingers are detected...
 [...]

 It's just the capacitive touch screen. I'm pretty sure no temperature
 sensor is involved. As you said ,you just measure the contact area between
 finger and screen (which is easily possible with capacitive touch screens)
 - and once the contact area gets larger than let's say 3cm you assume that
 your ear/cheek is in contact with the screen.

 Raphael

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Hi Carsten
 
 I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.
 
 You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long
 thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution
 question only) 
 
 I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as
 you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much
 the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this
 decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I
 will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing
 view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera
 and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff
 and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so
 clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while
 booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is
unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to
know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day
many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not
unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of
necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
- qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at
that size). it all depends on many factors.

i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the physical
size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most people
is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance.

maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal
- the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and
take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than that
it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :)

 But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
 I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko
 decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), 
 
 --- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
 
  De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU
  combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion
  community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43
  On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
   I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
   
   We should be going forward with specs, not backward.
  By the time the
   next revisions come there'll be a whole new
  generation of hardware so
   the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone
  mentioned getting
   a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that
  that's a much better
   option. But it sounds like you've already made the
  decision.
  
  i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much
  more. right now the only
  thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc.
  just different gsm
  subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
  added camera.
  
  don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as
  long as i have been able to.
  i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have
  insisted on laptops
  with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny
  fonts and high dpi
  screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have
  noticed a tendency to be
  the only one in the room who can read it.
  
  i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was
  playing with a phone
  last week with one on it. but practical factors may just
  not allow it. if you
  wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at
  a good price, then
  go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just
  can't happen. same
  with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to
  get gfx support to run
  such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers.
  and that is not
  somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you
  won't get the best of
  components in every possible way due to the nature of what
  is being done here.
  we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to
  be made.
  
  what people have been saying here is that they have
  excellent eyesight and can
  see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of
  it. like really see the
  difference and be able to do things with that res that
  would be not possible,
  impractical or painful 

Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Kalle Happonen
arne anka wrote:
 It's 8GB not 4 and it's $199 with a 2yr contract.  Regular retail prices
 have yet to be announced.
 

 as i understand, 199 is apple's price -- providers may subsidise the  
 iphone, too.
   
No, 199$ is a operator subsidised price.

from
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/the-cost-of-the-199-iphone-10-more-per-month-for-data/

According to a press release from ATT, the carrier will no longer give 
a portion of monthly usage fees to Apple. Instead carriers will pay 
Apple a subsidy for each phone sold, in order to bring the price from 
$399 down to $199 for the 8 Gigabyte model.

later in the same
Now Apple will get its money, say $500, up front and it no longer has 
to police what people do with them.
which I guess is a fair estimate.

What this means is of course significantly higher monthly fees.

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Fwd: Re: latest stable rootfs and kernel

2008-06-10 Thread Roland Häder
Doh? It fires up but where is this beautiful desktop wallpaper? Ok, maybe I 
can find it somewhere in the configs. :)

Roland


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Re: latest stable rootfs and kernel

2008-06-10 Thread Roland Häder
On Tuesday, 10. June 2008, rakshat hooja wrote:
 A request - can anyone identify the latest stable kernel and rootfs (ASU
 and GTK) for the Freerunner and Neo 1973. I have trying them from 10 june
 backwards and almost all of them crash after booting or cannot make phone
 calls.
The latest stable or official images from daily build host are booting here 
on my qemu. Well, I don't have a real device here and I know there is a big 
difference between the Neo hardware and qemu. :) So if you mean stable then 
you maybe refer to the one were you can see black boots?

Some days ago I had trouble with this combination, qemu + official images from 
build host, it doesn't launch the Enlightment desktop so it returns to the 
console. Even there I was not able to get keyboard focus. :(

Here is the call for the qemu program:


( cd build/qemu  arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm \
-M gta01 -m 130 -usb -show-cursor \
-usbdevice keyboard \
-mtdblock openmoko/openmoko-flash.image \
-sd openmoko/openmoko-sd.image \
-kernel openmoko/openmoko-kernel.bin )


Now, it is booting up. So I need to wait if this Englightment problem turns up 
again. :)

Roland


 thanks

 Rakshat



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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Ilja O.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I suppose the cell phone number should be more then unique enough.


Yup. But I don't know if we're able to obtain it (don't see reason to RTFM
before obtaining of Freerunner).
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No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread Justyn Butler
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only
 thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm
 subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera.

Hi,

Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
can't even handle 3G?

That sounds crazy!

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Re: resolution preferences??

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Btw, QVGA won't cost much less (it doesn't now and in two years it could be,
 in fact, more expensive than VGA).

That has been especially true of flash drives - I remember seeing a
16MB flash drive that cost more then the same 32MB model.

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja



 as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
 easily,
 but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
 pixel
 count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.

 --
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hi Carsten,

There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
remember which one it was?

Rakshat

PS

but i am being shown designs
wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that
snazz.

Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font 
  -
  possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.

 have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but
 definitely functional.


No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:44 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Hi Carsten

 I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.

 You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long
 thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution
 question only)

 I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as
 you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much
 the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this
 decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I
 will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing
 view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera
 and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff
 and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so
 clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while
 booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

 it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is
 unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to
 know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day
 many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not
 unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of
 necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
 - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at
 that size). it all depends on many factors.

 i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the 
 physical
 size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most 
 people
 is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance.

 maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal
 - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and
 take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
 enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than 
 that
 it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :)

 But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
 I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko
 decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance),

Let's be honest with ourselves.  The regular joe's going to buy
iPhones (or, *shudder* RAZRs) for quite some time.  You can't just
walk into Verizon to buy it, the software for the device isn't
finished, and it costs twice as much as an iPhone.  It's going to be a
geek phone for some time.

GTA04(5,6?) may be interesting to consumers, but that's a ways off.
In the mean time, ignoring the current primary demographic -- geeks --
will kill off the phone before it has a chance to become usable for
the demographic you want: consumers.


-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:

 %

 #
  #
  #
 #
  #


 S

  ##
 #
  #
  #
 ##

 s


  ##
 ##
  ##
 ##

 $
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
 @
  ##
 # #
 ###
 ###
 ###
 #
  ##
 #
 # #
 # #
 ###
 # #
 ###
 # #
 # #
 o


  #
 # #
 # #
  #



I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can
 see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the
 difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible,
 impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience
 over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many
 people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised.


I personally _don't_ have that great eyesight, yet I find the
difference between my VGA x50v and the QGVA x50 so substantial that I
would not even consider buying the QVGA machine even if it were the
only option. I'm nearsighted, though, and farsighted people may have
different experience.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
 eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
 - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available  
 at that size

well, less physical size is a very plausible rationale for qvga (or hvga)  
-- but, as i understand, we are talking about the size of the actual neo,  
right?

 maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24  
 terminal
 - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's  
 and
 take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
 enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses.

is that average joe the target group (is this the word?) of openmoko?
isn't the target user someone who pushes the limits of things possible? i  
for one will use the freerunner as some kind of full featured computer in  
my pocket, being able to do almost everything my laptop does.
i am unsure whether openmoko will be able to compete with apple or htc in  
terms of appealing to average joe -- i think openmokos share of the market  
are users/organisations/companies looking for an open, easy expandable  
(software side) phone with no small bounds (as a little screen would be).

average joe who will not buy an iphone but looks for something similar  
will be targeted by htc's armada of devices and even blackberry, which are  
avalibale through the carriers' shops. how big are the chances om will be  
available by vodaphone, t-mobile, you name it?

 other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels  
 than yours :)

well, i know nobody who does and if i would do bragg  i do not know  
somebody who would listen ;-)
what i would bragg about is my phone is open! i could do all programming  
and more -- no need for iTunes or [carrier/platform dependend strait  
jacket] -- an people bragging about that .. well, that's surely the  
people you expect to buy the freerunner?

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread wim . delvaux
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 13:46:59 Justyn Butler wrote:
 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the
  only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just
  different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
  added camera.

 Hi,

 Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
 ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
 can't even handle 3G?

In fact 2G/Edge is really fast (more like standard ADSL speeds over here in 
Europe).

Also latency is the real pain for Cellurar communication.

CU
W

 That sounds crazy!

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Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
Hi guys,

we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa 
directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time 
being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), 
since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways.

So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? Personally, 
I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence 
I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a 
bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it.

If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to 
alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them 
into a queue and play them sequentially.

Opinions?

:M:

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 comment related-to-parent-poster=no
 Sheesh, what's with all the hate?  I swear the open source community
 should sometimes just be called the hater's club.

This page [1] is generally a good overview of the iPhone. Lets be
serious for a second, a new feature was advertised, the ability to
jump to a contact by typing in the first few letters of the name. My
Motorola E398 from 5 years ago could do that. For sure the iPhone is
not a terrible product, but there is absolutely nothing revolutionary
about it. If any other manufacture had made it, identically, it would
probably be a moderate success. In my opinion all the hate is caused
by the majority of people in the open source community recognize the
fact that the iPhone is no miracle phone, even though it's being
treated as such. But I'm just speaking for myself.
/napalm flamethrower/offtopic

[1] http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja

 Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
 ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
 can't even handle 3G?

 That sounds crazy!

 Think of GTA03 as the with camera variation of Freerunner . GTA04 most prob
will have 3G and hopefully other feature upgrades.

Rakshat


-- 
--
Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is
also a very feature rich browser.
www.firefox.com
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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread cedric cellier
I do not understand this thurst for specs comparisons, since what's
interresting in Apple's product is generally the software.

So, how does the Freerunner UI stand in front of the iPhone's ?
What about the MobileMe initiative ? Do we have anything like that ?

I checked both openmoko and maemo, and Im more and more afraid of how
far we are (we = the FOSS people) from Apple and Google.

Don't you think ?


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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Rahul Joshi
Will this mean I wont be able to hear an SMS arrive in background while I
listen to music?

Rahul J

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hi guys,

 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use
 alsa
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

 However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the
 time
 being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch
 feedback),
 since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways.

 So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it?
 Personally,
 I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough)
 hence
 I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes
 a
 bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it.

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them
 into a queue and play them sequentially.

 Opinions?

 :M:

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Ilja O.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Benedikt Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Ilja O. schrieb:
  About data wipe:
 
  I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
  And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?
 
  Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS
  message receiving.
 
 
  If you have several SIM cards, than we could create simple SIM card
  whilelist.
  
 
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 ... by the way : to what phonenumber will you send a sms when the thief
 has replaced the sim card?


 you could also test, if there is the selected SIM card in the phone.
 and if not, you send the GPS-Data of the phone every 10 minutes per sms
 to a pre given phonenumber.
 so you could find your phone. (and you have the phonenumber of the thief
 :) )
 If i think about it, we should just send every 30min. because it would
 be annoying to recive a sms every 10 min.



This have  already been discussed.




 but all these things are just functional if you are the only one who
 have implimented that feature.
 That's the bad side of the open source thing. If you put it in the
 general source tree, everyone
 knows where he had to put his SIM card numbers, so the phone think
 everthing is allright.


If phone will wipe itself if no authorized SIM is present (and program
starts as daemon, of course), than it won't be real security hole.
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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi guys,

 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

 However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the time
 being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback),
 since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways.

 So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? Personally,
 I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence
 I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a
 bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it.

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them
 into a queue and play them sequentially.

 Opinions?

Write a light weight sound muxing daemon? :) Wouldn't it be possible
to get the device to actually vibrate when you touch something, since
it does have a vibrator and all?

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: Landscape keyboard

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
Interesting idea. There are some problems I see with it:
-The screen is very small so typing with two thumbs and trying to see
what you type gets difficult.
-When you type with two fingers, you happen to touch the screen with
both at once sometimes and with our resistive touchscreen that
registers a touch somewhere between the two touchpoints. Probably not
that much of a problem, though, because you get used to avoiding this.
I think it's something that should be tried, especially for a number
pad. For a full sized keyboard, the buttons get too small for thumbs.
I think the solution for full text input is one-finger-sliding.
(Quickwriting)

Ortwin

On 6/9/08, Steven Milburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 ...The keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but
 it
 steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape
 -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum.


 Chris's comment about the keyboard in landscape mode popped an image into my
 head.  Maybe it's been mentioned already, but I don't recall.  The keyboard
 for landscape mode could be split in two and have half on the right, and
 half on the left.  I think that may make it more suitable for thumb typing
 and take less area away.

 Someone will probably ask me to mock it up, but I'm a HW guy, so you really
 don't want me to try :)

 --Steve M


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 
 
 
  as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
  easily,
  but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
  pixel
  count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.
 
  --
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Hi Carsten,
 
 There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
 lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
 remember which one it was?

3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit
longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
but in a much smaller space.

 Rakshat
 
 PS
 
 but i am being shown designs
 wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that
 snazz.
 
 Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo?
 -- 
 --
 Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is
 also a very feature rich browser.
 www.firefox.com
 


-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:46:59 +0100 Justyn Butler justynbutler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only
  thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm
  subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera.
 
 Hi,
 
 Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
 ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
 can't even handle 3G?
 
 That sounds crazy!

correct. no 3g for gta03.

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Alexander Köb
hi Mickey,

  click sound is normally the first thing I deactivate when I get a new
phone that uses this.

thanks for asking BTW.

have fun
k.

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Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Yorick Matthys

Won't the constant use of the vibrator decrease our FreeRunners expected 
lifetime?
I don't really need a clicking sound, but the phone should be able to inform us 
with an audio signal that we are recieving a call/SMS, even when we are 
listening to music

Michael, did you recieve my mail to send a sample FreeRunner to Zagg.com to 
make a full phone protection? It can be a non-working phone, or one with only 
the casing and the screen (without components inside).

y
 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
 
  %
 
  #
   #
   #
  #
   #
 
 
  S
 
   ##
  #
   #
   #
  ##
 
  s
 
 
   ##
  ##
   ##
  ##
 
  $
   #
   ##
  ##
   #
   ##
  ##
   #
  @
   ##
  # #
  ###
  ###
  ###
  #
   ##
  #
  # #
  # #
  ###
  # #
  ###
  # #
  # #
  o
 
 
   #
  # #
  # #
   #
 
 
 
 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif

 Dotan Cohen
 
 http://what-is-what.com
 http://gibberish.co.il
 א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread Justyn Butler
2008/6/10 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Not at all. First, 03 is about evolution, so change as few parts as possible.

Sorry I didn't make it clearer, but what I find so surprising is that
the GSM subsystem IS being changed but the opportunity to upgrade to
3G is not being taken. Raster said just different gsm subsystem
(2g/edge).

If it were being kept identical to GTA02 to keep changes to a minimum
it would not sound crazy.

 2nd, there are hardly any UMTS modules available on the component market that
 would attach to serial and fit size- and powerconsumption wide. 3rd, there
 are insane advance license fees to pay for 3G products.

This makes the decision seem much more reasonable, thank you. Very sad
news though.

Justyn.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja
 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny
 bit
 longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
 smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP
 screen,
 but in a much smaller space.

 http://www.firefox.com


Good enough for me if this gives faster performance  :-). Need to check for
visibility in light and if that is better that the current VGA I vote for
this for the GTA04.

Rakshat
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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
 Opinions?
my 2c: i hate those accoustic feedbacks.
isn't it possible to use the vibration for that kind of feedback, if  
somebody likes it?

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Stroller

On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have  
 suggested, is
 really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web  
 pages are
 designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into  
 2.8 is nigh
 madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor  
 (imho) :)

I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I  
mean, eccentric.

I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I  
do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for  
poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway -  
viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful  
(maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a  
design consideration.

And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in  
this? Well, c'mon!

True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their  
mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got  
for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone  
because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is  
important this week.

People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install  
applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of  
people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some  
piece of information and away from home.

Stroller.


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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Alexander Frøyseth
Never used it, and will never do it ;)
So for me, just remove it

Alexander Frøyseth
Michael 'Mickey' Lauer skrev:
 Hi guys,

 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa 
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

 However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the 
 time 
 being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), 
 since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways.

 So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? 
 Personally, 
 I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence 
 I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a 
 bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it.

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to 
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them 
 into a queue and play them sequentially.

 Opinions?

 :M:

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Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 4:40 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 correct. no 3g for gta03.

Could you confirm if there is edge, or just normal GPRS?

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread robert lazarski
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
 

 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif


That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the
ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
my eyesight is relatively good .

Robert

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
 So, how does the Freerunner UI stand in front of the iPhone's ?
 What about the MobileMe initiative ? Do we have anything like that ?

 I checked both openmoko and maemo, and Im more and more afraid of how
 far we are (we = the FOSS people) from Apple and Google.

why should we compete with apple in this respect?
i never understood the hype for 3d desktop thingumabob (compiz/aigle or  
whatever it is called now), animated icons or that stuff -- it usually  
only eats cpu and memory w/o offering real benefits, it's just eye candy.
while i don't underestimate the importance of those gimmicks in marketing  
i still like to think the users targetd by the openmoko are above this  
tinsel, glitz and glass beads ;-)

imho the palm os ui has still its merits and while improvable its far  
better then f ex windows ce -- i had no chance to check iphone's way of  
navigation, but i am convinced, if there is any good somebody will  
implement somthing sismilar for us :-)

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GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
(obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
that second point is a positive one... _). The device wouldn't even
have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
decent phone.
Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

Ortwin

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Re:Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread damien.thebault
 Hi guys,
 
 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa 
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

Hi,

I saw threads about this on the pulseaudio-discuss mailing-list [1][2].
I don't know if changes mentioned there are available now, we can read on the 
XO wiki page about pulseaudio [3] (linked in [2]) that:
Pulseaudio requires FP for resampling calculations. [...]
This has been changed in the 0.9.7 release. Pulse is using the speex resampler 
by default which allows to configure pulse's resampler to do either float or 
fixed.

The Audio Class Policy thing from [1] seems great too and it might be nice to 
have something like that available on OpenMoko.

Currently I don't have any hardware and I didn't start looking at the code, so 
I don't have any opinion about dropping pulseaudio or not. Maybe when I will be 
more involved (with a FreeRunner in my hands, for example), I will really look 
at it ;).

Regards.

[1] [pulseaudio-discuss] PulseAudio for Embedded System
 https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2007-May/000385.html
[2] [pulseaudio-discuss] Pulseaudio on the XO
 
https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2007-July/000555.html
[3]  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Pulseaudio
-- 
Damien Thébault

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Piotr Duda

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pisze:
[...]

 
 maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin
 to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think.
 the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions.


well, as for now I have only 15 minutes experience with QVGA, and I have
already get used to my beautiful gta01 screen, so the result of this quick
comparison is very easy to predict...

I have a question for people who are digital photography enthusiasts
(personally I prefer old/traditional/dying photography so I can not tell
myself)...
The neo screen, has almost 300dpi and AFAIK most photolabs are printing
photos in 300dpi. Could it be useful for you guys, for some kind of preview?
One can scale the photo to some target size and check some, most interesting
parts of this photo on neo screen as it would be almost as good as on
resulting print. I think one can see that this part is not sharp enough and
this detail is not big enough and so on... Is it realistic use case or am
I only in love with this resolution and desperately looking for arguments :)

I think most digital cameras have no such good resolutions on their LCDs
(but again, Im not up to date) with the exception of course of some very
high-end SLR cameras. With some big SD cart, neo could be even used as
some lifesaving photobank (I know - usb1.1, but if qvga _can_ be usable
with tiny font, the same aplies here ;D )...


Piotr

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Stroller

On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:08, Benedikt Schindler wrote:
 Ilja O. schrieb:
 About data wipe:

 I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
 And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?

 Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS
 message receiving.

 ... by the way : to what phonenumber will you send a sms when the  
 thief
 has replaced the sim card?

LOL.

This was my first reaction, too, and was just about to post to the  
list and ask the same question when I realised the answer.

The new phonenumber doesn't matter, because it'll wipe the phone when  
the thief's friend sends them a text message.

Having said that, why wait for an incoming text?
Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?
You just need to store the original SIM ID in flash memory and check  
against it at start-up. The software can add an additional function  
for change SIM card which will allow the user to do so safely (add  
SIM card is probably better - if it allows the phone to check  
against a whitelist of multiple SIM cards then users can swap between  
two tariffs easily, without having to worry about activating this  
function EVERY time they do so).

The erasing of personal data can be done silently without alerting  
the user (thief), and doesn't need to interfere with an additional  
feature of phoning home its details in the event of theft http:// 
www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7565813.

Stroller.

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Schuster
Hi,

Michael 'Mickey' Lauer schrieb:
 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa 
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.
 
 However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the 
 time 
[..]

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to 
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them 
 into a queue and play them sequentially.
 
 Opinions?
I get the impression that it is not well understood what pulseaudio can
provide. PA is not YASS (= yet another sound server) that tries to fix
the evil 'no hw mixing available' problem. Instead it provides flexible
handling of sound sources at a very low level (lower than gstreamer I mean).

Please take a current GNU/Linux distro that ships and configures
pulseaudio in a useful way (I only know Fedora 9 and Ubuntu Hardy) and
do the following experiment:
- start a song in your favorite media player (make sure it plays
via PA)
- hear the music on the analog speakers that are usually connected to
your box
- plug in a USB headset

- surprise: the music will be played on them, too

- unplug the headset

- surprise 2: music app does not crash instead music can still be heard
through the analog speakers again

I have no idea how that would work with bluetooth sound devices but if
they appear as an additional ALSA device that is managed by PA it work
like with the USB case above.

Regarding CPU hogging: Lennart, PA's main developer, recently[0] wrote
about rewriting parts of PA to fix it. In short: Especially the
power-saving features of glitch-free PA should be enough reason for the
embedded Linux people to adopt it quickly.

So if anyone on this list has no idea what to do with her/his free time.
Go hack on PA. :)

Regards
Robert

[0] - http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/pulse-glitch-free.html



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Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

Hello everyone,

I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
an openmoko is the freedom.

But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because 
they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible 
buyers, for purely economical reasons.

I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the 
FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


Best wishes



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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
 really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
 (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
 up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
 size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
 screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
 two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
 sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
 that second point is a positive one... _). The device wouldn't even
 have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
 original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
 could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
 off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
 decent phone.
 Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
 example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
 above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
 can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

 Ortwin

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I second this post. 

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

2008-06-10 Thread Brian C
cedric cellier wrote:
[snip]
 So, how does the Freerunner UI stand in front of the iPhone's ?
 What about the MobileMe initiative ? Do we have anything like that ?
[snip]
The MobileMe initiative was a far bigger announcement yesterday than the
3G iPhone.  Once one uses a Treo or similar linked to an Exchange server
then one is spoiled by having email/contacts/calendar pushed to/from
your phone automatically.  People choosing the Freerunner shouldn't have
to take a step backwards in this respect.  Surely someone can start a
push project for the Freerunner so that its native email/contacts/cal
apps can interact with the most common mail servers and/or
GNU/Linux-based desktop apps.  (Or there's a business opportunity here
for someone who wants to be the intermediate server in the cloud.)

Second, there's been some discussion of Android on the Freerunner.
Since Google is making increasingly clear that they will open source all
the component parts of Android, what's the reason for not throwing
Openmoko's full support behind that project too, and working together
with them on a great  open UI/platform for mobile devices?  Maybe there
is a good reason--I don't know--so, I'm really asking: why compete with
another open source phone project that has such an enormous amount of
support?

Brian

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Peter Kraker
As long as visual feedback is adequate, I don't see why not.

Michael 'Mickey' Lauer pravi:
 Hi guys,

 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use alsa 
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not cut it.

 However just recently I ponder whether I should remove pulseaudio for the 
 time 
 being. I have been mainly using it to create a click sound (touch feedback), 
 since ring tone et. al playback goes over gstreamer anyways.

 So... how important is that click sound to you? Would you miss it? 
 Personally, 
 I love it, since the device kind of vibrates (because it's low enough) hence 
 I immediately know that the touch has been recognized, even if the UI takes a 
 bit. However, I know lot of other people hate it.

 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go directly to 
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather stick them 
 into a queue and play them sequentially.

 Opinions?

 :M:

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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Asheesh Laroia
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:

 Hi guys,

 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded 
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not to use 
 alsa directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not 
 cut it.

Is it a CPU hog even when the sounds are all the same frequency and no 
resampling has to be done?

If so, and if the beep file is not the same sample rate as call audio, can 
we resample the beep file?

-- Asheesh.

-- 
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enough cheese.
 -- National Lampoon, Deteriorata

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Jorge . wrote:
 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now 
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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No, it won't make the Moko more expensive.

You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
contract minimum.

The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko.

In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would 
basically be free.

Please actually compare apples to apples.

- Rob

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GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread Roland Häder
My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the market 
asks for this:

- An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is 
mentioning as subject for removal.

- Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the gameing 
controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the software 
shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires the 
gaming controls.

Any further ideas? :)

Roland

On Tuesday, 10. June 2008, Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
 really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
 (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
 up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
 size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
 screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
 two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
 sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
 that second point is a positive one... _). The device wouldn't even
 have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
 original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
 could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
 off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
 decent phone.
 Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
 example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
 above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
 can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

 Ortwin

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Ilja O.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Having said that, why wait for an incoming text?
 Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?


That's what i was proposing from the beginning.
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year 
 contract minimum.

Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, 
because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 
($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also 
helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to 
sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still 
paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of 
the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay 
for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of 
going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price 
of their phones to lock you into a contract.

Just my $0.02.

What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the 
freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has 
their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple 
to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to 
build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their 
mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to 
do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that 
come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots 
of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a 
community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on 
OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Federico Lorenzi
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.


*sigh*
The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.

Cheers,
Federico

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor

I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse many of the 
characters on that image.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:


 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif


 That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
 anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
 be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the
 ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
 my eyesight is relatively good .

 Robert

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Ilja O. wrote:
 Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?
 
 That's what i was proposing from the beginning.



But for users like me with multiple valid SIM cards, I think being able 
to run a script/app on the phone that says this SIM is valid, don't do 
a wipe would be necessary -- keep a 'catalog' of allowed SIM's.

If an unknown SIM is inserted, send an Email to some central location 
with the phone number of the SIM that IS inserted, so you now have the 
phone number for which to send the 'wipe' SMS message.

Just my $0.02.

-id

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Audio in qemu?

2008-06-10 Thread Roland Häder
Hi,

I wonder if audio support is available when I build the qemu with MokoMakefile 
and make qemu? Sorry for bad english. :) I'm still improving it. ;)

BTW: I have added --enable-alsa to the configure script because I have ALSA 
here.

Roland


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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread ian douglas
Federico Lorenzi wrote:
 The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
 through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
 nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.


... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner, 
where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more.

But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my 
Freerunner.

-id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
What the hell?! Seems like a lot of people STILL don't get it:
The iPhone does NOT cost 199$.
It's a marketing lie. The actual price is 199$ + a two year contract.
That makes it probably closer to 1000$. The Neo is still very very
cheap compared to that, especially considering how few Neo phones are
being made at the moment.

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to
 buy an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive,
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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Re: Click Feedback?

2008-06-10 Thread Stroller

On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:13, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
 ...
 we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded
 systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not  
 to use alsa
 directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not  
 cut it.
 ...
 If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go  
 directly to
 alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather  
 stick them
 into a queue and play them sequentially.

Hi Mickey,

In reading this I'm struck by the last paragraph, and not the click  
feedback example you give.

Someone else has already mentioned SMS notification whilst listening  
to music, but also my GPS concept is affected. If a driver is  
approaching an accident blackspot he cannot afford for notification  
of that to be queued to play after some other application is finished.

Stroller.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
 contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
For the record: I was talking about the gaming controls of my Tapwave
Zodiac. I realize that this was probably not all that clear from the
context and apologize.

I think branching into multiple devices starts making sense with the
switch to a new SoC. As it is, it looks like GTA03 is supposed to be
the Neo camera edition. I can't think of too much other popular uses
that should be realized with the current configuration. Maybe a keypad
would be popular (though I personally hate it) but that would either
require relatively complex mechanics (and maybe patent issues) or it
would be awful...

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, Roland Häder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the market
 asks for this:

 - An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is
 mentioning as subject for removal.

 - Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the
 gameing
 controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the
 software
 shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires the
 gaming controls.

 Any further ideas? :)

 Roland

 On Tuesday, 10. June 2008, Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There has been all this fruitless talk about resolution. Well, what is
 really limiting the Neo's screen right now is not resolution
 (obviously), not speed (at least not on the GTA01, no idea how messed
 up the 02 situation is. I'd guess it's faster most of the time.) but
 size! If the GTA03 get's a new case design, please consider making the
 screen twice as big! Then we are finally at a size were
 two-thumb-typing starts to make sense and even people with bad eye
 sight can benefit from the high resolution (although I'm not convinced
 that second point is a positive one... _). The device wouldn't even
 have to be bigger for this because so much space was wasted in the
 original Neo design. The only handheld I have owned where the screen
 could be called big enough was the Tapwave Zodiac (RIP). If you shave
 off the gaming controls and make it a little thicker, you get a very
 decent phone.
 Also, I suggest concentrating more on the horizontal usage. For
 example, bring the stereo speakers back but add one below and one
 above the display so that they are left and right in landscape. You
 can get a pretty good stereo effect at that distance.

 Ortwin

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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor
For bonus marks, have it send gps coordinates charged against the 
new sim card's account every few minutes and see the look on his face 
when cops walk up to him :)


On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Stroller wrote:


 On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:08, Benedikt Schindler wrote:
 Ilja O. schrieb:
 About data wipe:

 I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
 And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?

 Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS
 message receiving.

 ... by the way : to what phonenumber will you send a sms when the
 thief
 has replaced the sim card?

 LOL.

 This was my first reaction, too, and was just about to post to the
 list and ask the same question when I realised the answer.

 The new phonenumber doesn't matter, because it'll wipe the phone when
 the thief's friend sends them a text message.

 Having said that, why wait for an incoming text?
 Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?
 You just need to store the original SIM ID in flash memory and check
 against it at start-up. The software can add an additional function
 for change SIM card which will allow the user to do so safely (add
 SIM card is probably better - if it allows the phone to check
 against a whitelist of multiple SIM cards then users can swap between
 two tariffs easily, without having to worry about activating this
 function EVERY time they do so).

 The erasing of personal data can be done silently without alerting
 the user (thief), and doesn't need to interfere with an additional
 feature of phoning home its details in the event of theft http://
 www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7565813.

 Stroller.

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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions

2008-06-10 Thread Ken Young
Stroller wrote:

 Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
 that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
 Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?

 Management seem to be asking for this alpha bleeding rubbish, and
 it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
 don't care a heck for it.

Amen to that!

 Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
 has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
 clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
 but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
 really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
 mobile phone market?

This is especially true because if the GTA03 tries to be an iPhone
clone, it will be at best a half-assed iPhone clone.   The hardware just
isn't competitive with an iPhone's.   If the GTA03 has QVGA, will it have
fast 3G networking?   No.   Will it have a state-of-the-art SoC?   No.
That's not to say the GTA03 will be a bad device.   There's a lot
of very exciting things you can do with the Freerunner hardware.   But
it's just stupid to try to imitate the slick, largely useless, graphics
goodies found on high-end video feature phones.   It is also a little
alarming to hear that alpha blending is even being discussed by corporate
OM personnel, when you consider the state of the current OM software stack.

I don't think OM should target consumers who care about watching videos
and having slick graphics at all.   They should go after uses of Palm
and RIM products, who will be attracted to a rich ecosystem of useful
3rd party applications, and a phone geared towards letting professional
people get some work done.   There are not nearly so many of those
people as there are Apple fanboys, but they are willing to part with
serious money to get the best phone for their work and hobbies.

Think Differently!
   --

Ken Young


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions

2008-06-10 Thread Ortwin Regel
Well said.

Ortwin

On 6/10/08, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 9 Jun 2008, at 01:56, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... i am asked by product management to do
 things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast).
 ... in the end if product management want X they get X. and
 if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need
 a very very
 very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product
 management
 need to drop a feature.


 On 10 Jun 2008, at 11:55, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to
 do in terms of
 processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and
 trust me -
 everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it
 already) the
 sheer memory bandwidth and cycles needed to do that stuff at a
 smooth framerate
 is astounding. sure - if your life is plain with still images/
 content and
 everything is plain solid rectangles, you don't. but i am being
 shown designs
 wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all
 that snazz.
 this is coming to me and i need a way to accommodate it in the long
 run
 ... cpu alone can't do it all - unless you really cut down the
 workload. that means too
 bad - no alpha ...


 On 6 Jun 2008, at 08:45, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs
 game right now, we will lose.
 ... if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel
 count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi
 helps there,
 but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in
 fact these
 probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put
 money on
 that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy
 for over a
 decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract
 people). to make
 things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower
 resolution to do
 it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt
 is not
 changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen
 resolution
 or the eyecandy has to remain toned down. so does vga buy you
 more sales for
 the average joe than a sexy bit of eyecandy at qvga? i'm leaning to
 qvga +
 eyecandy myself.


 Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
 that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
 Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?

 Management seem to be asking for this alpha bleeding rubbish, and
 it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
 don't care a heck for it.

 Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
 has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
 clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
 but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
 really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
 mobile phone market?

 DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
 in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but that's not for the
 animation, it's because I want something that just works when I sit
 down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose to be a *massive*
 UI improvement when it was released, but that's because virtual
 desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with so many windows on
 a single desktop *some* way of finding the bottom-most one was
 required. The other day I was talking to a Linux developer who turned
 off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down his productivity -
 you simply don't need Expose if you have virtual desktops (which
 admittedly are not suitable for my granny).

 It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's animation may wow people,
 what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same attention to UI
 simplicity that Apple have always brought to their products. It does
 a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where it separates itself
 from the majority of phones on the market, none of which *quite* suit
 the mass-market of users. Most users don't want to understand the
 filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away with it; Apple
 have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that one must include in
 the discussion the word intuitive) to email a photo taken on the
 camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it impossible to
 email attachments under many other circumstances. The majority of
 users don't want to copy  paste text on their mobile phones, so
 Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers muddy up the phones
 they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the
 ability to copy  paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of
 business-phone users want or need that.

 The Neo  Freerunner have both been smartphones, and that's surely
 the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able
 to shell into our unix servers, 

Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?

2008-06-10 Thread Andy Powell
On Tuesday 10 June 2008 14:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
 On Tuesday 10 June 2008 13:46:59 Justyn Butler wrote:
  2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the
   only thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just
   different gsm subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new
   case, added camera.
 
  Hi,
 
  Maybe this was a typo, but are you saying that the current plan is to
  ditch the existing GSM subsystem yet replace it with a modem that
  can't even handle 3G?
 
  That sounds crazy!

 Not at all. First, 03 is about evolution, so change as few parts as
 possible. 2nd, there are hardly any UMTS modules available on the component
 market that would attach to serial and fit size- and powerconsumption wide.
 3rd, there are insane advance license fees to pay for 3G products.

 :M:


At some point we're going to start explaining to the folks at OM that we can't 
actually afford to buy every model they produce to help fund this 
evolution...  I really don't want to have a collection of interesting but 
ultimately useless devices - Let's face it the gta01 has issues the gta02 has 
issues, perhaps it *is* time for a revolution...

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor

You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges. 
(that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in 
Canada).

Seems inexpensive to me :)

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote:


 Hello everyone,

 I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows 
 their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy 
 an openmoko is the freedom.

 But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost 
 only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, 
 because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many 
 possible buyers, for purely economical reasons.

 I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now 
 the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price.


 Best wishes



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions

2008-06-10 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 9 Jun 2008, at 01:56, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... i am asked by product management to do
 things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast).
 ... in the end if product management want X they get X. and
 if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need
 a very very
 very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product
 management
 need to drop a feature.


 On 10 Jun 2008, at 11:55, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to
 do in terms of
 processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and
 trust me -
 everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it
 already) the
 sheer memory bandwidth and cycles needed to do that stuff at a
 smooth framerate
 is astounding. sure - if your life is plain with still images/
 content and
 everything is plain solid rectangles, you don't. but i am being
 shown designs
 wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all
 that snazz.
 this is coming to me and i need a way to accommodate it in the long
 run
 ... cpu alone can't do it all - unless you really cut down the
 workload. that means too
 bad - no alpha ...


 On 6 Jun 2008, at 08:45, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ... if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs
 game right now, we will lose.
 ... if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel
 count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi
 helps there,
 but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in
 fact these
 probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put
 money on
 that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy
 for over a
 decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract
 people). to make
 things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower
 resolution to do
 it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt
 is not
 changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen
 resolution
 or the eyecandy has to remain toned down. so does vga buy you
 more sales for
 the average joe than a sexy bit of eyecandy at qvga? i'm leaning to
 qvga +
 eyecandy myself.


 Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
 that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
 Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?

 Management seem to be asking for this alpha bleeding rubbish, and
 it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
 don't care a heck for it.

 Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
 has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
 clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
 but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
 really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
 mobile phone market?

 DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
 in it. I do use a Mac as my main desktop, but that's not for the
 animation, it's because I want something that just works when I sit
 down at my computer. All us Mac fans found Expose to be a *massive*
 UI improvement when it was released, but that's because virtual
 desktops have always been rubbish on a Mac - with so many windows on
 a single desktop *some* way of finding the bottom-most one was
 required. The other day I was talking to a Linux developer who turned
 off compiz on his desktop because it slowed down his productivity -
 you simply don't need Expose if you have virtual desktops (which
 admittedly are not suitable for my granny).

 It seems to me that, whilst the iPhone's animation may wow people,
 what really distinguishes the iPhone is the same attention to UI
 simplicity that Apple have always brought to their products. It does
 a FEW things amazingly well, and that's where it separates itself
 from the majority of phones on the market, none of which *quite* suit
 the mass-market of users. Most users don't want to understand the
 filesystem on their mobile phone, so Apple do away with it; Apple
 have made it spectacularly easy (so much so that one must include in
 the discussion the word intuitive) to email a photo taken on the
 camera or grabbed from a webpage, but they make it impossible to
 email attachments under many other circumstances. The majority of
 users don't want to copy  paste text on their mobile phones, so
 Apple just got rid of it - other manufacturers muddy up the phones
 they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the
 ability to copy  paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of
 business-phone users want or need that.

 The Neo  Freerunner have both been smartphones, and that's surely
 the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able
 to shell into our unix servers, 

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions

2008-06-10 Thread Steven Milburn
I have used an iPhone, my wife's.  The animations are pretty at first.
After a while, they're just annoying.  My wife gets impatient waiting for
windows to get out of the way so she can get on with what she's trying to
do.  What's really funny is that some times the phone will do all that neat
animation, and the window that shows up has no content.  You stare at an
empty contact list for as much as 3 seconds easily before it suddenly fills
up with names.

My wife may be an exception to the rule here.  She sometimes does data entry
at work and has the dialogs of her application memorized so she can type in
the fields much faster than the application can keep up.  When the keyboard
beeps, she'll sit back and take a sip of her beverage while the application
is popping dialogs up all over the place filling in what she typed.  It's
fun to watch.  (FWIW: the application is running over a slow network via
citrix, so it would take a lot to speed things up.  She's stopped asking)

With the touch screen UI, she can't use this approach.  She has to wait.

--Steve

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Reading these posts of the last few days it has just occurred to me
 that it's not Carsten we should be beating up on here.
 Who the heck asked for translucency and flashy animations?

 Management seem to be asking for this alpha bleeding rubbish, and
 it seems to me that we users need to be telling management that we
 don't care a heck for it.

 Sure, I know the iPhone does this now, but that doesn't mean Openmoko
 has to do it. Do we really want Openmoko to be just another iPhone
 clone? I know we see a fair number of posts on here about the iPhone,
 but surely that's just a result of the current buzz - is UI animation
 really a *necessity* in the long-term (or medium-term) future of the
 mobile phone market?

 DISCLAIMER: I haven't used an iPhone, and I'm not terribly interested
 in it.
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RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Jorge .

 *sigh*
 The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized
 through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs
 nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract.
 

Just look Ebay, amazon, etc...  you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the 
price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could 
buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the 
FreeRunner!!).

I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G
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Is openmoko-devel-image supported any more?

2008-06-10 Thread Bobby Martin
I tried to dfu burn a new image (well, an old image - the latest recommended
openmoko-devel-image) last night, then opkg install some standard stuff I've
been using.  Tangogps, several python packages, openmoko-keyboard, that sort
of thing.

The burning went fine, but after the opkg update  install, a reboot led to
a dead openmoko-today application.  When I manually run openmoko-today, I
get a pile of CRITICAL GLIBC messages and then apparently the dbus daemon is
dead.  I also note that the opkg for openmoko-keyboard appears to be gone.
I don't have access to ssh to my neo at work or I would get you useful
output rather than vague assertions of something wrong :-(

The real point of this message, though, is to ask: is openmoko-devel-image
still supported?

Thanks!
Bobby

-- 
If it doesn't make you smile, you're doing something wrong.
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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Ortwin Regel wrote:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

 Ortwin

   
Same here.  The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it.

Rob

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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread JW
On 10/06/2008, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 I think branching into multiple devices starts making sense with the
 switch to a new SoC



Trouble enough to produce one model :-)

. As it is, it looks like GTA03 is supposed to be
 the Neo camera edition.


Nope

Read mails elsewhere by Joerg and others
GTA03 = evolution
GTA04 = revolution
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Re: GTA - Two models? Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-10 Thread Robert Taylor
Roland Häder wrote:
 My suggestion here is that OpenMoko may design another phone - if the market 
 asks for this:

 - An OpenMoko for younger people who need the gaming controls Ortwin is 
 mentioning as subject for removal.

 - Another OpenMoko for professionals/business/older people without the 
 gameing 
 controls but bigger screen. Maybe there is one available? Surely the software 
 shipped with this OpenMoko doesn't need include software which requires the 
 gaming controls.

 Any further ideas? :)

 Roland

   
Yes.  I propose a modular approach.  1 phone many external similar to 
this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/

Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but 
many docking stations if done right, for example:

Quick preview:  http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html

Their overbearing website:  http://www.buglabs.net/products

Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and 
it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket).

It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and 
something like that would allow for everyone to be happy. 

However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for 
the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor.

Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with  a buddy hey 
whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod.  COL!  can i try it 
on my moko?  sure  ... *CLICK*  ... here you go.   COOL!

It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a 
smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats 
that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to 
establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed.

What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE.  Instead of relying 
purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an RD and 
marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want 
to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control 
quality and get a cut of each sale.

Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that, 
such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati 
into the picture with their completely documented processors and really 
start something interesting.


Just some brianstorming ...

Rob

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread john
Yeh it is all relative to your country and usage pattern. In the UK
you can get a prepaid SIM with data capped at £1 per day. I don't need
a contract (I don't make many calls/sms) so the cost of the Freerunner
is a lot more attractive to me! Especially at it seems Apple will now
make you activate the phone on purchase eliminating cracking and
sticking in your prepaid SIM which is what many did with the current
model.

John.

2008/6/10 Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.

 Ortwin

 On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Robert Taylor wrote:
 You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year
 contract minimum.

 Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost,
 because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400
 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also
 helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware.

 And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to
 sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still
 paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of
 the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay
 for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of
 going to Apple to help pay for the hardware.

 Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price
 of their phones to lock you into a contract.

 Just my $0.02.

 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the
 freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has
 their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple
 to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to
 build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their
 mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to
 do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that
 come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots
 of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a
 community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on
 OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software.

 That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price.

 -id

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

2008-06-10 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in
 Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably
 godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no
 monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me
 the price advantage over an iPhone is very real.


Good for you.  It's not the case for others.  I'm going to have a cell
phone for the next 2 years, and prepaid plans cost me plenty when I
add in things like text messaging and data.  Atop of that, my family
has 10,000 rollover minutes just sitting there.  For me, it'd be
$40/month to jump on that plan, and $200 for the phone.

The monthly fee is fairly constant, no matter where I go (and probably
higher outside of ATT than in), and the 2 year contract is irrelevant
(I'll be using a phone for the next 2 yrs, and in the US a contract is
pretty standard), so it really does just come down to $200 vs whatever
another phone costs.

Sheesh.  We get it, we just don't care.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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interface for people with very poor eyesight?

2008-06-10 Thread joakim
I'm investigating a phone for a person whos recently lost most of his
eyesight and thinking about the freerunner.

Does anyone have experience with phones for nearly blind people?

I'm considering the freerunner rather than a simple phone with very
large buttons for the following reasons:

- it can say whos calling
- gestures to accept/reject calls
- ebooks/radio can be streamed over wifi and gesture controlled
etc...

Of course the display would be nearly useless, except for the touch
area, so if its possible to buy freerunners with dead pixels cheaply,
I'm interested.

-- 
Joakim Verona


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