Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

2008-06-15 Thread Rok Jaklič




On openomoko wiki pages it is written that price will be around 399
dollars, so this means that in europe will be around 260 euros or they
will do "the same" like some other companies do (sell something for
example for 400 dollars in US and for 400 euros in EU)?

steve pravi:

  SMT is running. This means printed circuit boards are being produced daily.

Then, the circuit boards are being assembled into phones. This means the
plastic casing is being mounted
As well as other bits and pieces.

Then the phones are tested. Then they are packed and shipped.

So figure, assembly is going to start in the week of june 16, pack and ship
by june 23
Arrive and clear customs by july 1.

Hey 4th of july sale! Sorry american bias. But I'd figure early july. 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steven Kurylo
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:48 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

  
  
Since phone is already being produced in factory does anyone has some 
estimated date when ordinary people could buy this phone?

  
  
No one has any idea.  Personally I'm expecting mid July.

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Re: OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.

2008-06-15 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Saturday 14 June 2008 10:50:12 Federico Lorenzi wrote:
 This has been beaten to death in previous threats. You are not getting
 the phone for free, you are merely paying for it in your contract.

With most carriers I know, you actually do get it for free in a sense because 
you would pay as much for the contract without the phone (I generally take 
whatever phone they offer and sell it). So in a way, the phone is free to me 
unless I would have otherwise gone for another contract, of course.


It is definitely true for subsidized SIM locked PrePay phones where you would 
pay the same rates if you brought your own phone. The operator would be 
pretty dumb to subsidize a phone, not get any contract income and let you use 
it on whatever network you please. 


 South Africa has a nice system here. Sure you can get a phone on
 contract, for free, but that phone is not restricted in anyway. 
 If you want to use it on a competitors network, fine, as long as you keep
 paying your contract or pay cancellation fees, they don't care.


Same in most European countries. The locked phone with contract is mostly an 
US phenomenon. 



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Re: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread Michele Renda
Hi Steve

I think I was a bit mis-understood.

I didn't told that all the decisions must to be took with a votation 
system! If we would do so I think we will not have a phone, but a microwave.

My idea was only: when Openmoko has to take a decision between two 
equivalent solution and WANT to know the opinions of the comunity to use 
a votation system. But only for opinion asked by OM, like it was for the 
audio jacket.

And in every case must to be clear that also if the votation say choose 
A the final decision must to be tooken by OM, because you must to 
invest on it.

I hope I clarified something :)

steve wrote:
 The complexity of the decision is deeper than that.

 It involves cost, engineering budget, schedule, price, return on investment,
 parts availability.







 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Midgley
 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:12 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?

 Michele

   
 Do you want feature X or feature Y?
 

 you might need a table representing the cost and business feasibility of
 each feature. We've seen a lot more transparency on the 3g decision recently
 which reveals it to be more complicated than people thought.

 --
 Brad

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Re: Why not use newsgroup?

2008-06-15 Thread Gustin Johnson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Martin Bernreuther wrote:
| Am Freitag, 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Alexey Feldgendler:
| By default you just download the headers without having to get the text
| of every message,
| You can do that with IMAP, which is the modern protocol for accessing
your
| mail.
|
| You can receive only the headers on the IMAP server???

Only from the IMAP server to MUA (user's local client).  I do not
believe that SMTP has the ability to accept headers only, which is the
protocol that does the actual transfer of email messages.  IMAP only
talks to your MUA.
|
| We're NOT talking about downloading only the headers from
| the IMAP server to a client machine, right? If the email is
| on the IMAP server, it's already too late: you've got the email
| (with an impact to your quota) and you have to get rid of it.
| (if you don't like it). If I don't want to delete it manually:
| How does it work?
| (I also don't want to delete email after a predefined time period!)
|
| But eMail is definitely more common than news,
| and to reach masses you better use a mailing list.
| Is it possible to have both ways at once?
|
I have looked in to this for my local LUG.  The short answer is no.
There are options but with those options come limitations (ie. certain
solutions lock you into a particular web front end or mailing list
package).  Personally, as I am subscribed to a number of different
lists, being able to sort, read, delete etc. in a single interface with
a single set of credentials is the killer feature.  If you can get email
from a provider that supports sieve or some other server based
filtering, you can get the messages sorted into folder before you ever
access your account.  Nice if you have to use a webmail interface at all.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFIVNJEwRXgH3rKGfMRAssYAJ9S23H9gEDSFLttJF/+eX8OgkMoNwCeII7F
GhXgdpq3p7V8dR6DfQuI5ko=
=PByN
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread Kim Alvefur
On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 14:54 +1000, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
 Can you do sending and receiving email and so on with GSM, or is that 3G only?

Of course. It's only slower over GSM (GPRS).


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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread NeilBrown
On Sun, June 15, 2008 2:54 pm, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
I'd like
 to replace them both by one thing, and I want that one thing to be Linux
 based and open source. At the same time, though, I want it to be useful
 for a long time. 3G seems to me ignorant mind to fit that bill better
 than GSM. (They've just switched off CDMA here in Aussie; I don't know
 anything for certain, but assume that it won't be too many years before
 GSM goes the same way). Or maybe I am just ignorant. Can you do sending
 and receiving email and so on with GSM, or is that 3G only?

How many years do you expect to get out of a 'phone?   Some people
seem to change them every couple of years, and I'm sure GSM will last longer
than that.

Yes, I would like 3G too, though I've heard it said on this forum that
3G is somewhat of a catch-all term for several related technologies, and
it is not possible to have a single international 3G device.  I don't
know how true that is.

In any case, to answer your question: yes, you can send/receive Email
on GSM.  GSM includes GPRS which is low-speed IP.  Similar sort of
speed to a 56K modem.  OK for sending Email, just bearable for web
browsing if that pages aren't too busy.

NeilBrown


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Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

2008-06-15 Thread Michele Renda
Hi,

I am a OMmer but I can help you because I studied a bit the cost to sell 
the OM in Europe.

399 $ is the price of FR in US.

We can image that EU reseller can buy FR in 10 pack, so 369 $ for unit 
(I don't know how much tehy pay, It is a supposition done to help calc)

369 $ = 240 Euro

To this ammount you must to add expedition from US to EU: 160 $ / 10 = 
16$ = 10 Euro

To this ammount you must add Environmental tax + Dougane ( that replace 
TVA - 20%?) = 50 Euro (I considered only tva)

With all this we arrive to 300 euro.

Then there is to add Warranty that in Italy (and I think is Europe) that 
is mandatory for 2 years and the margin for the reseller.

Pulster say that is able to sell FR at 299 Euro. I think they are magician!

In every case I think is a good price.



Rok Jaklič wrote:
 On openomoko wiki pages it is written that price will be around 399 
 dollars, so this means that in europe will be around 260 euros or they 
 will do the same like some other companies do (sell something for 
 example for 400 dollars in US and for 400 euros in EU)?

 steve pravi:
 SMT is running. This means printed circuit boards are being produced daily.

 Then, the circuit boards are being assembled into phones. This means the
 plastic casing is being mounted
 As well as other bits and pieces.

 Then the phones are tested. Then they are packed and shipped.

 So figure, assembly is going to start in the week of june 16, pack and ship
 by june 23
 Arrive and clear customs by july 1.

 Hey 4th of july sale! Sorry american bias. But I'd figure early july.


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Kurylo
 Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:48 AM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

   
 Since phone is already being produced in factory does anyone has some
 estimated date when ordinary people could buy this phone?
 

 No one has any idea.  Personally I'm expecting mid July.

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Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread ian douglas
Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm tired 
and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my Freerunner 
tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no 
mention of a cron engine in the opkg library.

Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an especially 
handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at least in 
my circumstance.

-id


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Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

2008-06-15 Thread Peter J. Holzer
On 2008-06-15 10:57:22 +0200, Michele Renda wrote:
 I am a OMmer but I can help you because I studied a bit the cost to sell 
 the OM in Europe.
 
 399 $ is the price of FR in US.
 
 We can image that EU reseller can buy FR in 10 pack, so 369 $ for unit 
 (I don't know how much tehy pay, It is a supposition done to help calc)
 
 369 $ = 240 Euro

Note that this amount contains the cost of shipping to the US, US
customs, and the margin for the US seller.


[extra costs are more than 60 Euro]


 Pulster say that is able to sell FR at 299 Euro. I think they are magician!

I imagine that Pulster won't import 10-packs from the US. They will
probably order larger quantities directly in China, so instead of paying
for shipping to the US, paying US customs, then shipping to Europe and
paying European customs, they only have to pay for shipping to Europe
and pay European customs. So that makes it quite a bit cheaper already.
And the bigger quantities should help too. Even if they import from the
US, I'm sure they get a much better price for 100 10-packs than we get
for a single 10-pack.

 In every case I think is a good price.

Yep.

hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer| It took a genius to create [TeX],
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR   | and it takes a genius to maintain it.
| |   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | That's not engineering, that's art.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |-- David Kastrup in comp.text.tex


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Spam

2008-06-15 Thread Mo Abrahams
Did anybody else notice a huge increase in the spam they get since they
first joined this mailing list? I never used to get any, and within a
week of joining this list I get lots.

Mo.


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Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

2008-06-15 Thread thomasg
I'm pretty sure that OM grants the resellers a rebate that's a 2 digit
percentage over the 10-pack rebate.
So let's see what the resellers can do.

On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Hi,

 I am a OMmer but I can help you because I studied a bit the cost to sell
 the OM in Europe.

 399 $ is the price of FR in US.

 We can image that EU reseller can buy FR in 10 pack, so 369 $ for unit
 (I don't know how much tehy pay, It is a supposition done to help calc)

 369 $ = 240 Euro

 To this ammount you must to add expedition from US to EU: 160 $ / 10 =
 16$ = 10 Euro

 To this ammount you must add Environmental tax + Dougane ( that replace
 TVA - 20%?) = 50 Euro (I considered only tva)

 With all this we arrive to 300 euro.

 Then there is to add Warranty that in Italy (and I think is Europe) that
 is mandatory for 2 years and the margin for the reseller.

 Pulster say that is able to sell FR at 299 Euro. I think they are magician!

 In every case I think is a good price.



 Rok Jaklič wrote:
  On openomoko wiki pages it is written that price will be around 399
  dollars, so this means that in europe will be around 260 euros or they
  will do the same like some other companies do (sell something for
  example for 400 dollars in US and for 400 euros in EU)?
 
  steve pravi:
  SMT is running. This means printed circuit boards are being produced
 daily.
 
  Then, the circuit boards are being assembled into phones. This means the
  plastic casing is being mounted
  As well as other bits and pieces.
 
  Then the phones are tested. Then they are packed and shipped.
 
  So figure, assembly is going to start in the week of june 16, pack and
 ship
  by june 23
  Arrive and clear customs by july 1.
 
  Hey 4th of july sale! Sorry american bias. But I'd figure early july.
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven
 Kurylo
  Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:48 AM
  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
  Subject: Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?
 
 
  Since phone is already being produced in factory does anyone has some
  estimated date when ordinary people could buy this phone?
 
 
  No one has any idea.  Personally I'm expecting mid July.
 
  ___
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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread Nigel Cunningham
Hi.

On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 18:55 +1000, NeilBrown wrote:
 On Sun, June 15, 2008 2:54 pm, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
 I'd like
  to replace them both by one thing, and I want that one thing to be Linux
  based and open source. At the same time, though, I want it to be useful
  for a long time. 3G seems to me ignorant mind to fit that bill better
  than GSM. (They've just switched off CDMA here in Aussie; I don't know
  anything for certain, but assume that it won't be too many years before
  GSM goes the same way). Or maybe I am just ignorant. Can you do sending
  and receiving email and so on with GSM, or is that 3G only?
 
 How many years do you expect to get out of a 'phone?   Some people
 seem to change them every couple of years, and I'm sure GSM will last longer
 than that.

Well, I've had the Nokia since about 2001. I've purchased a new battery
in that time, but that's about all. Always prepaid, low usage up till
now.

 Yes, I would like 3G too, though I've heard it said on this forum that
 3G is somewhat of a catch-all term for several related technologies, and
 it is not possible to have a single international 3G device.  I don't
 know how true that is.
 
 In any case, to answer your question: yes, you can send/receive Email
 on GSM.  GSM includes GPRS which is low-speed IP.  Similar sort of
 speed to a 56K modem.  OK for sending Email, just bearable for web
 browsing if that pages aren't too busy.

Ok. So given that I'm subscribed to LKML and so on, I'd probably want to
use webmail. Since we're saying 'low-speed IP' does that mean SSH would
be possible? Would providers tend to let you use SSH? (If I could use it
to do quick website admin tasks when away from home, that would be
great).

Nigel


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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Peter J. Holzer
On 2008-06-15 02:29:48 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
 Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm tired 
 and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my Freerunner 
 tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no 
 mention of a cron engine in the opkg library.
 
 Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an especially 
 handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at least in 
 my circumstance.

I think a straight port of cron would be simple but not very useful.
Cron is really designed for computers which run 24/7. 

A cron-like tool for a phone (or any other device which is suspended
most of the time) at least needs the ability to wake up the device in
time for a scheduled job to run and go back to suspend mode after it has
finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time. They
can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the
next time the device has AC power.

hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer| It took a genius to create [TeX],
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR   | and it takes a genius to maintain it.
| |   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | That's not engineering, that's art.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |-- David Kastrup in comp.text.tex


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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Mikael Lammentausta
 User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf
 /* because...?

Because sudo can be configured to accept users in certain groups to
run certain commands with or without a password. rm can be
restricted, whereas opkg can be permitted without password.

IMO, running everything as root introduces a whole world of possible
exploitations without any real benefits.

--mikael

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Re: Permission denied (publickey)

2008-06-15 Thread Shakthi Kannan
Hi,

--- On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Kim Alvefur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| I got the same message after upgrading sshd on my server, due to the
| Debian ssl-thingy and me disabling cleartext passwords.
\--

Upgraded openssl, openssh-client packages. Re-generated ssh keys.
Checked with sudo ssh-vulnkey -a for compromised keys. Re-uploaded
keys to GForge. Works now.

Thanks!

SK

-- 
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com

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Re: Why not use foru

2008-06-15 Thread Clinton Ebadi
arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Plus, forums usually have provisions for storage and selective
 notifications.

 you mail client doesn't store your email? wow! :)


 do you store everry mail?
 as somebody said, the signal/noise-ratio here is rather bad (and i know,  
 this thread is adding to it), take the iphone-prices and -plans thread(s),  
 so there's a lot of mails one would delete -- but still sometimes you  
 know, you read something in a amil long deleted and need to find it again.

This is why clients like Gnus have commands like catchup where you can
just mark every message in a folder as read. I read the mail that
looks worth reading and then just kill the rest.

But the mail is all there and searchable thanks to namazu. With
threading and anything else I want (e.g. messages from @openmoko.com
addresses are highlighted so I can more easily see threads that aren't
just people idling about wasting time).

There is no need to delete email when you use IMAP; email doesn't use
that much space, and, unless you use a terrible client, nothing will
slow down from having mail going back forever.

-- 
Jessie: but today i was a nerd
Jessie: i even read slashdot.

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Re: Spam

2008-06-15 Thread Alexander Frøyseth
No increase in spam here.
I use thunderbird, so I don't see any spam :D
Mo Abrahams skrev:
 Did anybody else notice a huge increase in the spam they get since they
 first joined this mailing list? I never used to get any, and within a
 week of joining this list I get lots.

 Mo.


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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Ilja O.
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 2008-06-15 02:29:48 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
  Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm tired
  and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my Freerunner
  tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no
  mention of a cron engine in the opkg library.
 
  Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an especially
  handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at least in
  my circumstance.

 I think a straight port of cron would be simple but not very useful.
 Cron is really designed for computers which run 24/7.

 A cron-like tool for a phone (or any other device which is suspended
 most of the time) at least needs the ability to wake up the device in
 time for a scheduled job to run and go back to suspend mode after it has
 finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time. They
 can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the
 next time the device has AC power.


Maybe straight port of anacron will do?
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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Francesco Albanese
As I already pointed out, re-establishing the correct privilege
isolation is a fundamental step to enforce security, even though the
phone will have only 1 user. In the future we should have a few root
process, dedicated accounts for daemons and a X session belonging to
the user. IMHO it could be a good idea to suppress root account and to
take full advantage of PAM+SUDO facility.

F.A.


On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Robert Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Peter Nijs wrote:
 no problems. what i don't want is people to get their hopes up. this was in
 the context of people asking if they can play vga video and me going good
 luck!. there is reality - and you can sit and hack away spend lots of time
 and get 1 case to work, and work well. as i said - it will depend on codec,
 bitrate, quality etc. mpeg4 decode in hw is great - but remember it is also
 limiting to just mp4 - all your mpeg1, ogg, etc. videos will not work. also
 as long as mplayer is accessing glamo hardware it must run as root.
 admittedly we run everything as root - but come the day when we don't...
 this is trouble.


 Hi.

 Can someone clear up for me why everything runs as root?  When I heard
 the iPhone ran everything as root I kinda sneered at it but now I can't
 be so smug.

 What are the engineering reasons for this?

 Rob

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Re: Why not use foru

2008-06-15 Thread Shawn


| There is no need to delete email when you use IMAP; email doesn't use
| that much space, and, unless you use a terrible client, nothing will
| slow down from having mail going back forever.

Tell that to the IT department at work. They've recently lowered our email 
storage limits on the M$ exchange servers. 

ugh. 


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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am So  15. Juni 2008 schrieb Peter J. Holzer:
 On 2008-06-15 02:29:48 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
  Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm tired 
  and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my Freerunner 
  tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no 
  mention of a cron engine in the opkg library.
  
  Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an especially 
  handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at least in 
  my circumstance.
 
 I think a straight port of cron would be simple but not very useful.
 Cron is really designed for computers which run 24/7. 
 
 A cron-like tool for a phone (or any other device which is suspended
 most of the time) at least needs the ability to wake up the device in
 time for a scheduled job to run and go back to suspend mode after it has
 finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time. They
 can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the
 next time the device has AC power.

Yes, cron, at, and rtcwake have to be merged and augmented by awareness of 
powerstate (like kpowersave e.g) and some other environmental sensitivity 
(g-meters, GSM-signal etc)

I really wonder why THIS wasn't a GSoC project...

cheers
jOERG



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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am So  15. Juni 2008 schrieb Mikael Lammentausta:
  User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf
  /* because...?
 
 Because sudo can be configured to accept users in certain groups to
 run certain commands with or without a password. rm can be
 restricted, whereas opkg can be permitted without password.
 
 IMO, running everything as root introduces a whole world of possible
 exploitations without any real benefits.

YEP, exactly. Really wonder whether ssh is open to GPRS :-o (I had to fire up 
GPRS to check, my simcard doesn't allow right now. shame on me :-/ )
For sure it's no good idea to run the web-browser as root.

/jOERG


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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
 finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time. They
 can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the
 next time the device has AC power.

anacron

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
 use webmail. Since we're saying 'low-speed IP' does that mean SSH would
 be possible?

depends on your use of ssh -- tunneling X will probably be a bad idea  
(maybe vnc or so is an alternative?), but everything that works on the  
commandline should be reasonable fast.

 Would providers tend to let you use SSH?

don't see, how they could possibly block it -- and why they should.  
they're only interested in traffic generated, how you generate shouldn't  
matter.

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Re: Spam

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
 Did anybody else notice a huge increase in the spam they get since they
 first joined this mailing list?

not yet -- but the archive at lists.openmoko.org does not hide  
email-addresses. thus, harvesting should be pretty easy.
maybe the archive could be configured to chop off everything after @?

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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Mark Müller
What about upstart integration? A look into the faq of the upstart
project lists replacement of cron/atd/anacron as one of the planned
features [1].


[1] http://upstart.ubuntu.com/faq.html#replace-cron


Ilja O. schrieb:



 On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 2008-06-15 02:29:48 -0700, ian douglas wrote:
  Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm
 tired
  and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my
 Freerunner
  tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no
  mention of a cron engine in the opkg library.
 
  Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an
 especially
  handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at
 least in
  my circumstance.

 I think a straight port of cron would be simple but not very useful.
 Cron is really designed for computers which run 24/7.

 A cron-like tool for a phone (or any other device which is suspended
 most of the time) at least needs the ability to wake up the device in
 time for a scheduled job to run and go back to suspend mode after
 it has
 finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time.
 They
 can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the
 next time the device has AC power.


 Maybe straight port of anacron will do?
 

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Mikko Rauhala
su, 2008-06-15 kello 16:39 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber kirjoitti:
 YEP, exactly. Really wonder whether ssh is open to GPRS :-o (I had to fire up 
 GPRS to check, my simcard doesn't allow right now. shame on me :-/ )
 For sure it's no good idea to run the web-browser as root.

Last I checked yes. So, you know, I pretty quickly set a root
password :]

-- 
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Transhumanist   - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/




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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am So  15. Juni 2008 schrieb arne anka:
 anacron

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacron #Drawbacks
Also anacron doesn't address the rtcwake topic.
We should plan for something more versatile that's merging cron(/anacron), 
at/batch, rtcwake, and the other powermanagement and wake-from-suspend 
reasons to make a nice cute task-scheduler

/jOERG


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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Kevin Dean
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 will tell you that having those kind of permissions systems when the
 INTRUDER has physical access to the device is next to pointless.

 the om is connected via wlan or bluetooth -- thus allowing hacking into it
 (if it is not posiible right now it will some day).
 thus the user does not necessarily notice if there's an intruder.
 second: what ways to boot the om _without_ destroying all data? if you
 need to hack the password for the root account to be able to manipulate
 existing data, there's another fence to jump.


 What benefit does havign things like OPKG SUID give us that having
 opkg run as root doesn't?

 only opkg is run, not everything possible.
 logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by
 accident or deliberately.
 expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd.


 User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf
 /* because...?

 see above.
 you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo.
 and user john is not every user -- a user able to run sudo needs to belong
 to a specific group, configurable as well.

 If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT
 EVER be able to run privaledged commands.

 see above.

 have various roles. This assumption doesn't exactly hold when the
 entire filesystem is small enough to be put in one's pocket.

 the om represents a device more powerfull than the computer linux was
 developed on.

 i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you
 saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only
 because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops
 specifically, it is a waste.
 if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding.

 what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications
 is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why
 would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native
 platform?
 ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on
 non-ubuntu systems users are able to run a lot of root applications such
 as rdate, power off, opkg, etc. w/o beeing root all the time.

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Re: Spam

2008-06-15 Thread Alexander Frøyseth
Yes, but if anyone really wants to get the email addresses, they just 
join the list ;)


arne anka skrev:
 Did anybody else notice a huge increase in the spam they get since they
 first joined this mailing list?
 

 not yet -- but the archive at lists.openmoko.org does not hide  
 email-addresses. thus, harvesting should be pretty easy.
 maybe the archive could be configured to chop off everything after @?

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Re: Spam

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
 Yes, but if anyone really wants to get the email addresses, they just 
 join the list ;)

true, oh pharao -- which poses the question, why not use a foru ... uhm,  
never mind :-)

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Kevin Dean
Firstly, sorry for the blank reply. Accidentally double clicked and
send is in the same spot. :P

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 only opkg is run, not everything possible.
 logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by
 accident or deliberately.
 expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd.

I understand how and why permission seperations exist. :) What I'm
saying is that if we sit back and evaluate how this device is going to
be used in the vast majority of cases, you'll realize that unlike a
desktop or server system, the data that a non-root user can delete is
as bad, or perhaps even WORSE than destroying the system integrity
itself.

I'm not saying we should abandon security as a concern. But
realistically speaking, a mobile device DOES have different concerns
than a desktop or a server. Focusing on system internals on Openmoko
while ignoring the fact that remote users can destroy vital, NON root,
important data is just busy work.


 User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf
 /* because...?

 see above.
 you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo.

I understand this. Take a step back for a second and really evaluate
the device's marketed purpose though. The point of sudo and the like
are to ensure that a non-root user can't hose the system, right? A
non-root user might need to be able to install a printer so you can
give that user access to CUPS commands. In the traditional UNIX file
system, having /usr destroyed is signifigantly bigger of an issue than
having /tmp destroyed in most cases. In a network environment, you
defend the important stuff dearly, and accept a certain level of
risk with every little blurb you give to a non-root user.

In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's
data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv
seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact
that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk
still.

Please understand I'm not saying Ignore security, I'm a big fan of
security. :) I'm simply trying to look at this in a way that's suited
to the use cases rather than tradition.

 If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT
 EVER be able to run privaledged commands.

 see above.

Perhaps I needed to make this distinction. When I said  a user in
this case, I don't mean a line in /etc/passwd but a flesh and blood
person. You running sudo some-command is a user running a privaledged
command. Sudo is a way to allow users to have SOME of the powers of
root, while limiting them from using others. If UNIX user john has
sudo permissions to remove packages, and that UNIX account is
comprimised, it is AS bad as of root itself had a shell on the box -
the intruder on the system can hose it.


 i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you
 saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only
 because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops
 specifically, it is a waste.
 if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm quite happy that I can log in a
kevin and not root on my desktop system. I AM saying, however,
that on a mobile device the value of each chunk of the filesystem is
different than on a desktop workstation, a laptop and CERTAINLY a
server. And taking into account traditional things because they're
traditional isn't always the most suited solution to the environment.


 what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications
 is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why
 would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native
 platform?

Because the system they obey is designed for an environment where
protection of the system is more important than protection of non-root
data.

 ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on
 non-ubuntu systems users are able to run a lot of root applications such
 as rdate, power off, opkg, etc. w/o beeing root all the time.

If you check the Ubuntu mailing lists back to the days of Warty you'll
see that there were people objecting to the use of sudo for the same
reason that people are calling for root/user split. Allowing a
comprimised non-root user to have access to system internals was
heresy! Objectivly speaking, no system on a public network is secure
- security is simply the amount of risk you're willing to take for the
sake of access. Ubuntu chose to open up the sudo risk (and as I said,
even though it's common, it's a procedure that still spark
controversy) because, in the end, it was deemed that that amount of
risk had acceptable gains. The reason that those gains were acceptable
on a desktop and not a server is the same arguement I'm making here -
the use case puts user data (which is still at risk when controlled by
a non-root 

Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Joseph Reeves
A lot depends on your network provider. I can't even ping my
FreeRunner on vodafone, for example.

Tmobile put it's first firewall up in 2002:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/27/first_hackers_sighted_in_high/

J



2008/6/15 Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 su, 2008-06-15 kello 16:39 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber kirjoitti:
 YEP, exactly. Really wonder whether ssh is open to GPRS :-o (I had to fire up
 GPRS to check, my simcard doesn't allow right now. shame on me :-/ )
 For sure it's no good idea to run the web-browser as root.

 Last I checked yes. So, you know, I pretty quickly set a root
 password :]

 --
 Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/
 Transhumanist   - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/
 Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/




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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
well, let's say we disagree in the classification of the om -- i think  
it's a very powerfull mobile computer and thus should follow basically the  
same idea of security.
the user's data can be backed up and thus restored if compromised or  
destroyed.
the system itself may causes severe loss of money if compromised: sending  
sms, calling those value-added numbers (what's the proper term in  
english?), creating internet connections (and maybe sending spam).
accessing your pc if you connect to it to sync or so may corrupt your  
computer (take a known vulnerabilty, create an exploit and put it on the  
om -- if connected to your pc it could infiltrate).

imho the om does not match the criteria of mobile world you're applying  
-- but that's just it: my opinion. maybe it changes once i get my paws on  
a real freerunner ;-)

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Re: G3. Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread Stroller

On 15 Jun 2008, at 05:54, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
 ...
 Or maybe I am just ignorant. Can you do sending
 and receiving email and so on with GSM, or is that 3G only?

GSM is fine for this.

 ...
 I'd really rather buy a Freerunner, but at the moment I'm not sure  
 what
 to do. I currently have a Nokia 3210 that spends most of it's time
 turned off and forgotten, and a Palm Zire 21 that gets wiped if the
 Nokia does something wrong (apparently not shielded that well). I'd  
 like
 to replace them both by one thing, and I want that one thing to be  
 Linux
 based and open source. At the same time, though, I want it to be  
 useful
 for a long time. 3G seems to me ignorant mind to fit that bill better
 than GSM.

I'm not sure what the big deal is with 3G.

My misconception was that GSM was only dial-up speed, but someone  
recently posted here stating otherwise. Someone debated with him over  
his terming GSM as having ADSL speed, but if it's 2 or 3 times  
faster than 56k then that's fine by me. I can do all my email   
websurfing quite happily at that speed, and since my current 3G  
mobile is painfully slow when coverage is spotty I can't see that it  
makes much difference.

As I understand it GSM *does* allow you to make a digital data  
connection, and that's the important thing.

Stroller.


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RE: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread steve
  

 Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.  

 
  
   

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Renda
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:25 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?

Hi Steve

I think I was a bit mis-understood.

I didn't told that all the decisions must to be took with a votation system!
If we would do so I think we will not have a phone, but a microwave.

My idea was only: when Openmoko has to take a decision between two
equivalent solution and WANT to know the opinions of the comunity to use a
votation system. But only for opinion asked by OM, like it was for the audio
jacket.

And in every case must to be clear that also if the votation say choose A
the final decision must to be tooken by OM, because you must to invest on
it.

I hope I clarified something :)

steve wrote:
 The complexity of the decision is deeper than that.

 It involves cost, engineering budget, schedule, price, return on 
 investment, parts availability.







 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad 
 Midgley
 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:12 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?

 Michele

   
 Do you want feature X or feature Y?
 

 you might need a table representing the cost and business feasibility 
 of each feature. We've seen a lot more transparency on the 3g decision 
 recently which reveals it to be more complicated than people thought.

 --
 Brad

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Re: Why not use foru

2008-06-15 Thread Stroller

On 15 Jun 2008, at 15:15, Shawn wrote:

 There is no need to delete email when you use IMAP; email doesn't  
 use that much space, and, unless you use a terrible client,  
 nothing will slow down from having mail going back forever.

 Tell that to the IT department at work. They've recently lowered  
 our email storage limits on the M$ exchange servers.

What part of unless you use terrible [software] don't you understand?

;)

Exchange stores large numbers of messages in a single binary file (I  
think the *whole* message store for the server, or the whole message  
store for each user). So one can easily imagine performance  
constraints would exist reading messages into memory which would not  
bother a proper IMAP server loading a single text file from disk.

Stroller.

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
If you have root AND user, root can make a backup copy of user's valuable data 
every once in a while, and user or the virus she imported while browsing the 
web can NOT destroy this backup.
I can't follow your arguments. It's NOT an evil person we need to fence in, 
it's bad behaviour of applications that go nuts on (virus|bug|user fault|*)

If we don't start to care about this topic NOW, we will see lots of poor 
designed apps that rely on having root access where they shouldn't, and we 
end up in a situation like M$, where the whole system is so much root-centric 
that you simply can't switch to a sane user-management anymore, because it 
would break half the system. To fix those apps later is a major PITA.

I just talked to Wolfgang Spraul and he answered
But right now we are selling to hardcore developers only, so it's not  
our #1 priority.
Once our software becomes more stable and mature, this needs to be  
addressed seriously. The good news is that the FOSS community is  
pretty paranoid about this, so I'm sure over time we will have a good  
solution.
It's a FOSS project and you are the community, so just contribute! I'd say, 
do it *now*, as long as it's easy.

cheers
jOERG


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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 9:15 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 well, let's say we disagree in the classification of the om -- i think
 it's a very powerfull mobile computer and thus should follow basically the
 same idea of security.
 the user's data can be backed up and thus restored if compromised or
 destroyed.
 the system itself may causes severe loss of money if compromised: sending
 sms, calling those value-added numbers (what's the proper term in
 english?), creating internet connections (and maybe sending spam).
 accessing your pc if you connect to it to sync or so may corrupt your
 computer (take a known vulnerabilty, create an exploit and put it on the
 om -- if connected to your pc it could infiltrate).

 imho the om does not match the criteria of mobile world you're applying
 -- but that's just it: my opinion. maybe it changes once i get my paws on
 a real freerunner ;-)

On my laptop, I can choose if I want to run SE Linux or not.
I think that the at least one image should run default with a
non-root user and everything in /etc/sudoers. This way,
people can uncomment inside that file and apply the
security they like.

The reason is that some people will use it as a phone,
while other people might even use it without a sim.
That means we may need different security policies.

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Federico Lorenzi
Isn't there a targeted SElinux policy being developed as part of GSoC?

On 6/15/08, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you have root AND user, root can make a backup copy of user's valuable
 data
 every once in a while, and user or the virus she imported while browsing the
 web can NOT destroy this backup.
 I can't follow your arguments. It's NOT an evil person we need to fence in,
 it's bad behaviour of applications that go nuts on (virus|bug|user fault|*)

 If we don't start to care about this topic NOW, we will see lots of poor
 designed apps that rely on having root access where they shouldn't, and we
 end up in a situation like M$, where the whole system is so much
 root-centric
 that you simply can't switch to a sane user-management anymore, because it
 would break half the system. To fix those apps later is a major PITA.

 I just talked to Wolfgang Spraul and he answered
 But right now we are selling to hardcore developers only, so it's not
 our #1 priority.
 Once our software becomes more stable and mature, this needs to be
 addressed seriously. The good news is that the FOSS community is
 pretty paranoid about this, so I'm sure over time we will have a good
 solution.
 It's a FOSS project and you are the community, so just contribute! I'd
 say,
 do it *now*, as long as it's easy.

 cheers
 jOERG


-- 
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Joseph Reeves
 On my laptop, I can choose if I want to run SE Linux or not.
 I think that the at least one image should run default with a
 non-root user and everything in /etc/sudoers. This way,
 people can uncomment inside that file and apply the
 security they like.

Sounds a lot like looking after a laptop rather than using a phone.
I've already written about how I like the FreeRunner because it's
*not* a laptop:

http://blogs.thehumanjourney.net/finds/entry/1

I've also posted twice (I think - I found one one on Google) to this
list about how it might be fruitful to consider the Bitforst security
model as developed for the OLPC project:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Bitfrost

Anyone with me on that one?

J


2008/6/15 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 9:15 PM, arne anka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 well, let's say we disagree in the classification of the om -- i think
 it's a very powerfull mobile computer and thus should follow basically the
 same idea of security.
 the user's data can be backed up and thus restored if compromised or
 destroyed.
 the system itself may causes severe loss of money if compromised: sending
 sms, calling those value-added numbers (what's the proper term in
 english?), creating internet connections (and maybe sending spam).
 accessing your pc if you connect to it to sync or so may corrupt your
 computer (take a known vulnerabilty, create an exploit and put it on the
 om -- if connected to your pc it could infiltrate).

 imho the om does not match the criteria of mobile world you're applying
 -- but that's just it: my opinion. maybe it changes once i get my paws on
 a real freerunner ;-)

 On my laptop, I can choose if I want to run SE Linux or not.
 I think that the at least one image should run default with a
 non-root user and everything in /etc/sudoers. This way,
 people can uncomment inside that file and apply the
 security they like.

 The reason is that some people will use it as a phone,
 while other people might even use it without a sim.
 That means we may need different security policies.

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Re: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread robert lazarski
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.


Seems like the Apache project rules, +1 !!!

;-)

Robert

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
 Sounds a lot like looking after a laptop rather than using a phone.
 I've already written about how I like the FreeRunner because it's
 *not* a laptop:

basically, yes. but that's probably due to the limited experience. i for  
one know palm pda/smartphone and laptop/pc -- according to the spec the om  
resembles a pc rather than a pda/smartphone so i more or less consciously  
shape my expectations after that.
but i am not sure if that in any way makes it incomopatible with your  
ideas expressed there.

 I've also posted twice (I think - I found one one on Google) to this
 list about how it might be fruitful to consider the Bitforst security
 model as developed for the OLPC project:

 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Bitfrost

 Anyone with me on that one?

sounds good. it's not that i think the unix/linux way is the best ever  
possible -- it's only that i think security _is_ a key feature, how we  
achieve that feature is a matter open to discussion.
if the olpc folks got it working for childs it means it will work for  
average joe as well ...

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delay in recieving mails

2008-06-15 Thread arne anka
i get every mail more or less 2h after it is sent (polling the account ist  
set to 15min), though the archive  
(http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/date.html)  
displays them much earlier.
is this intended?

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Re: moko running everything as root

2008-06-15 Thread Peter J. Holzer
On 2008-06-15 21:15:40 +0200, arne anka wrote:
 well, let's say we disagree in the classification of the om -- i think  
 it's a very powerfull mobile computer and thus should follow basically the  
 same idea of security.
 the user's data can be backed up and thus restored if compromised or  
 destroyed.
 the system itself may causes severe loss of money if compromised: sending  
 sms, calling those value-added numbers (what's the proper term in  
 english?), creating internet connections (and maybe sending spam).
 accessing your pc if you connect to it to sync or so may corrupt your  
 computer (take a known vulnerabilty, create an exploit and put it on the  
 om -- if connected to your pc it could infiltrate).

But all of these things a user has to be able to do - so if the user's
account is compromised, the intruder can also do these things.

I think there is some value in separating privileges even on a one-user
device, but I don't think the user vs. root is a useful separation,
because you will end up with a user who is essentially root and can do
everything interesting.
Separating applications may be more appropriate (e.g., the browser may
not need to be able to send SMS), but that needs careful thought.

hp


-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer| It took a genius to create [TeX],
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR   | and it takes a genius to maintain it.
| |   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | That's not engineering, that's art.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |-- David Kastrup in comp.text.tex


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GTA01/Neo1973 GlobalLocate GPS with open source software?

2008-06-15 Thread Harald Welte
Hi!

For those who're still interested in further liberating their GTA01's:

I've just stumbled over the http://www.gps-sdr.com/ project, which
implements a full GPS solution based on SDR (software defined radio) -
all in Free Software.

This is actually more than the proprietary GlobalLocate software does,
since the Hammerhead chip already contains corellators (and potentially
other parts of the entire signal processing required for GPS RX.

It would still be quite a bit of work to get this to work, mostly due to
the fact that the Hammerhead register set and command language are not
publicly known.  Still, I thought if somebody wanted to do some work on
this, it might help to know that the remaining 90% of the problem have
already been solved by gps-sdr.com

Just to make this clear again: GTA02 doesn't have any proprietary GPS
software bits.  Please don't confuse those two devices!

Cheers,
-- 
- Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://laforge.gnumonks.org/

Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

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Re: G3. Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

2008-06-15 Thread NeilBrown
On Mon, June 16, 2008 5:14 am, Stroller wrote:

 I'm not sure what the big deal is with 3G.

 My misconception was that GSM was only dial-up speed, but someone
 recently posted here stating otherwise. Someone debated with him over
 his terming GSM as having ADSL speed, but if it's 2 or 3 times
 faster than 56k then that's fine by me. I can do all my email 
 websurfing quite happily at that speed, and since my current 3G
 mobile is painfully slow when coverage is spotty I can't see that it
 makes much difference.

My understanding -- and experience -- is that GSM/GPRS does provide
only Dail-up speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPRS

suggests a max of around 80kbit/sec which is a little faster than
56k, but not much.

If you have EDGE support, then that pushes it up to 236kbit, which
is almost slow-ADSL.  However it is my understanding that GTA02
doesn't support EDGE.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko#GPRS_modem
says
  GPRS modem
  2.5G (no EDGE) access to the Internet.


 As I understand it GSM *does* allow you to make a digital data
 connection, and that's the important thing.


I agree - that is in the important thing.
I used GPRS for Internet access while traveling in the UK recently,
and while it is much better than not being connected at all, it
is a long way from being a comfortable browsing experience.

NeilBrown


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RE: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread David Samblas Martinez
good one, code committed to main stream distro? or bash code ? python script 
included in that offer?


--- El dom, 15/6/08, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: RE: Why not use votation system?
 Para: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' 
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 Fecha: domingo, 15 junio, 2008 9:18
 Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.
  
 
  
   

 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 Michele Renda
 Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:25 AM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?
 
 Hi Steve
 
 I think I was a bit mis-understood.
 
 I didn't told that all the decisions must to be took
 with a votation system!
 If we would do so I think we will not have a phone, but a
 microwave.
 
 My idea was only: when Openmoko has to take a decision
 between two
 equivalent solution and WANT to know the opinions of the
 comunity to use a
 votation system. But only for opinion asked by OM, like it
 was for the audio
 jacket.
 
 And in every case must to be clear that also if the
 votation say choose A
 the final decision must to be tooken by OM, because you
 must to invest on
 it.
 
 I hope I clarified something :)
 
 steve wrote:
  The complexity of the decision is deeper than that.
 
  It involves cost, engineering budget, schedule, price,
 return on 
  investment, parts availability.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Brad 
  Midgley
  Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:12 PM
  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
  Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?
 
  Michele
 

  Do you want feature X or feature Y?
  
 
  you might need a table representing the cost and
 business feasibility 
  of each feature. We've seen a lot more
 transparency on the 3g decision 
  recently which reveals it to be more complicated than
 people thought.
 
  --
  Brad
 
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Re: Spam

2008-06-15 Thread AVee
On Sunday 15 June 2008 13:36, Mo Abrahams wrote:
 Did anybody else notice a huge increase in the spam they get since they
 first joined this mailing list? I never used to get any, and within a
 week of joining this list I get lots.

I use a unique email adress for this list, but my spam folder doesn't hold a 
single email with that adresses anywhere in it. So at least there wasn't any 
spam in the last 20 days...

AVee

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RE: Invisible Shield

2008-06-15 Thread steve
I havent heard this.  could they use a display unit 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajit Natarajan
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:31 PM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Invisible Shield

Hi Steve,

I recall a message posted a few days ago that Invisible Shield is willing to
make a custom full body protector for FR if they can get a unit in house.
Any update on whether a unit can be sent to them or if a unit has already
been sent?

Thanks.

Ajit

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SV: delay in recieving mails

2008-06-15 Thread Jörgen Lidholm
I get them very fast, my guess is it's probably something with your service
provider.

Regards,
Jörgen

 -Ursprungligt meddelande-
 Från: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] För arne anka
 Skickat: den 15 juni 2008 23:27
 Till: community@lists.openmoko.org
 Ämne: delay in recieving mails
 
 i get every mail more or less 2h after it is sent (polling the account ist
 set to 15min), though the archive
 (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/date.html)
 displays them much earlier.
 is this intended?
 
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RE: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread steve
 I havent thought out the details, but essentially I would like a system
where I could be more attentive
To the people making big contributions, without ignoring those who have yet
to make one. Tough balance.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Samblas
Martinez
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:14 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: RE: Why not use votation system?

good one, code committed to main stream distro? or bash code ? python script
included in that offer?


--- El dom, 15/6/08, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: RE: Why not use votation system?
 Para: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' 
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 Fecha: domingo, 15 junio, 2008 9:18
 Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.
  
 
  
   

 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele 
 Renda
 Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:25 AM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?
 
 Hi Steve
 
 I think I was a bit mis-understood.
 
 I didn't told that all the decisions must to be took with a votation 
 system!
 If we would do so I think we will not have a phone, but a microwave.
 
 My idea was only: when Openmoko has to take a decision between two 
 equivalent solution and WANT to know the opinions of the comunity to 
 use a votation system. But only for opinion asked by OM, like it was 
 for the audio jacket.
 
 And in every case must to be clear that also if the votation say 
 choose A
 the final decision must to be tooken by OM, because you must to invest 
 on it.
 
 I hope I clarified something :)
 
 steve wrote:
  The complexity of the decision is deeper than that.
 
  It involves cost, engineering budget, schedule, price,
 return on
  investment, parts availability.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Brad
  Midgley
  Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:12 PM
  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
  Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?
 
  Michele
 

  Do you want feature X or feature Y?
  
 
  you might need a table representing the cost and
 business feasibility
  of each feature. We've seen a lot more
 transparency on the 3g decision
  recently which reveals it to be more complicated than
 people thought.
 
  --
  Brad
 
  ___
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  community@lists.openmoko.org
  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
 
 
  ___
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  community@lists.openmoko.org
  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

 
 
 ___
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 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
 
 
 ___
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 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community


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Re: delay in recieving mails

2008-06-15 Thread Kosa
Same here. I started just a few days ago.


Cheers.

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

arne anka escribió:
 i get every mail more or less 2h after it is sent (polling the account ist  
 set to 15min), though the archive  
 (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/date.html)  
 displays them much earlier.
 is this intended?

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speech - text on FR?

2008-06-15 Thread Ajit Natarajan
Hello,

I know nothing about speech recognition, so if the following won't work, 
please let me know (gently :) ).

I understand that there is a project called Sphinx in CMU which attempts 
speech recognition.  It seems pretty complex.  I couldn't get it to work 
on my Linux desktop.  I'm not sure if it would work on an FR since it 
may need a lot of CPU horsepower and memory.

I see a speech project on the OM projects page.  To me, it seems like 
the project is attempting command recognition, e.g., voice dialing. 
However, it would be great if the FR can function as a rudimentary 
dictation machine, i.e., allow the user to speak and convert to text.

Perhaps the following may work.

1. Ask the user to speak some standard words.  Record the speech and
establish the mapping from the words to the corresponding speech.
It may even be good to maintain separate databases for different
purposes, e.g., one for UNIX command lines, one for emails, and a
third for technical documents.

2. The speech recognizer then functions similar to a keyboard in that it
converts speech to text which it then enters into the application
that has focus.

3. The user must speak word by word.  The speech recognizer finds the
closest match for the speech my checking against the recordings made
in step 1 (and step 4).  The user may need to set the database from
which the match must be made.

4. If there is no close match, or if the user is unhappy with the
selection made in step 3, the user can type in the correct word.  A
new record can be added to the appropriate database.

The process may be frustrating for the user at first, but over time, the 
speech recognition should become better and better.

The separate databases may be needed, for example, because the word 
period should usually translate to the symbol `.' except when writing 
about time periods when it should translate to the word `period'.

I do not know what the storage requirements would be to maintain this 
database.  I do not know if the closest match algorithm in step 3 is 
even possible.  But if we could get a good dictation engine, that would 
be a killer app, in my opinion.  No more typing!  No more carpal tunnel 
injuries.  No more having to worry about small on screen keyboards that 
challenge finger typing.

Thanks.

Ajit

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Re: Invisible Shield

2008-06-15 Thread Ajit Natarajan
steve wrote:
  I havent heard this.  could they use a display unit

I'm guessing they could because they would need to measure the unit and 
probably check that the custom cover fits well and doesn't block any 
sockets.  Any unit that is the same form factor and format as the final 
one should do.

Joerg Reisenweber wrote the following in response to my post:
  Hey, Ajit.
  I already told you they shall apply directly by using their official
  office
  address, so we have some guarantee they intend to do some useful 
thing  and
  will send back the device. Please don't nag.
  /jOERG

So, I'm guessing that he is taking care of this.

Thanks.

Ajit

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Re: speech - text on FR?

2008-06-15 Thread Dan Staley
I actually just interfaced with the Sphinx project at one of the
research positions I hold.  It is actually a very well written interface
(for the most part...there were a few things poorly documented and/or
implemented) But anyway, I found the java version of the project (Sphinx
4 http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/sphinx4/ ) to be pretty easy to
build/interface with.

The benefit of using the HMMs and models and methods that Sphinx
implements is that anyone in their programs should be able to specify a
grammar (similar to a simplified regex) that they want to be recognized
and then the interpreter should be able to be user independant...meaning
anyone can speak the phrase into the phone and get the desired output.
Speech training wouldn't be required.  I found that once you set it up
correctly, the Sphinx engine is very powerful, and usually identifies
the spoken words no matter who says them (we found it even seemed to
work decently well with a variety different accents).  

-Dan Staley

On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 19:07 -0400, Ajit Natarajan wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I know nothing about speech recognition, so if the following won't work,
 please let me know (gently :) ).
 
 I understand that there is a project called Sphinx in CMU which attempts
 speech recognition.  It seems pretty complex.  I couldn't get it to work
 on my Linux desktop.  I'm not sure if it would work on an FR since it
 may need a lot of CPU horsepower and memory.
 
 I see a speech project on the OM projects page.  To me, it seems like
 the project is attempting command recognition, e.g., voice dialing.
 However, it would be great if the FR can function as a rudimentary
 dictation machine, i.e., allow the user to speak and convert to text.
 
 Perhaps the following may work.
 
 1. Ask the user to speak some standard words.  Record the speech and
 establish the mapping from the words to the corresponding speech.
 It may even be good to maintain separate databases for different
 purposes, e.g., one for UNIX command lines, one for emails, and a
 third for technical documents.
 
 2. The speech recognizer then functions similar to a keyboard in that it
 converts speech to text which it then enters into the application
 that has focus.
 
 3. The user must speak word by word.  The speech recognizer finds the
 closest match for the speech my checking against the recordings made
 in step 1 (and step 4).  The user may need to set the database from
 which the match must be made.
 
 4. If there is no close match, or if the user is unhappy with the
 selection made in step 3, the user can type in the correct word.  A
 new record can be added to the appropriate database.
 
 The process may be frustrating for the user at first, but over time, the
 speech recognition should become better and better.
 
 The separate databases may be needed, for example, because the word
 period should usually translate to the symbol `.' except when writing
 about time periods when it should translate to the word `period'.
 
 I do not know what the storage requirements would be to maintain this
 database.  I do not know if the closest match algorithm in step 3 is
 even possible.  But if we could get a good dictation engine, that would
 be a killer app, in my opinion.  No more typing!  No more carpal tunnel
 injuries.  No more having to worry about small on screen keyboards that
 challenge finger typing.
 
 Thanks.
 
 Ajit
 
 


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Re: speech - text on FR?

2008-06-15 Thread Mikko Rauhala
su, 2008-06-15 kello 16:07 -0700, Ajit Natarajan kirjoitti:
 I see a speech project on the OM projects page.  To me, it seems like 
 the project is attempting command recognition, e.g., voice dialing. 

Feasible especially if the user trains the command words in advance.
(Didn't check if it does that; it is doable to some extent otherwise too
but the difficulty rises markedly...)

 However, it would be great if the FR can function as a rudimentary 
 dictation machine, i.e., allow the user to speak and convert to text.

A pipe dream. Save your dictations as audio and postprocess them
elsewhere.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/
Transhumanist   - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/




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Bitfrost

2008-06-15 Thread Dale Schumacher
Bitfrost looks likes an interesting security model.  It would be well worth
consideration.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Joseph Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:59:24 +0100
Subject: Bitfrost
...
I've also posted twice (I think - I found one one on Google) to this
list about how it might be fruitful to consider the Bitforst security
model as developed for the OLPC project:

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Bitfrost

Anyone with me on that one?
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Re: Bitfrost

2008-06-15 Thread Asheesh Laroia
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Dale Schumacher wrote:

 Bitfrost looks likes an interesting security model.  It would be well 
 worth consideration.

The Bitfrost security software isn't fully ready yet, and still being 
integrated with OLPC's sugar package.

It is a nice model, but it is very focused on an interactive computer with 
cleanly separated applications; a tightly-integrated phone would be a less 
obvious match.

Not to throw cold water on the party, just to say, Wait and see a little 
more, and also, try out some OLPC software images in emulators and check 
out the current state of it. (-:

-- Asheesh.

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Re: Anyone working on a cron port?

2008-06-15 Thread Uncle Kridley
Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 We should plan for something more versatile that's merging cron(/anacron), 
 at/batch, rtcwake, and the other powermanagement and wake-from-suspend 
 reasons to make a nice cute task-scheduler

Yes please!  I have a long shopping list of things I'd like to schedule 
on a regular basis.

For instance, since gprs is rather slow for interactive use, I'd like to 
have the phone periodically fetch a list of RSS feeds, so that when I 
have a few minutes to look at the news and such there's a reasonably 
current version sitting on my phone.

-- 
--
   Dirk Bergstrom   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  http://otisbean.com/

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Re: speech - text on FR?

2008-06-15 Thread Brandon Kruse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dan Staley wrote:
| I actually just interfaced with the Sphinx project at one of the
| research positions I hold.  It is actually a very well written interface
| (for the most part...there were a few things poorly documented and/or
| implemented) But anyway, I found the java version of the project (Sphinx
| 4 http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/sphinx4/ ) to be pretty easy to
| build/interface with.
|
| The benefit of using the HMMs and models and methods that Sphinx
| implements is that anyone in their programs should be able to specify a
| grammar (similar to a simplified regex) that they want to be recognized
| and then the interpreter should be able to be user independant...meaning
| anyone can speak the phrase into the phone and get the desired output.
| Speech training wouldn't be required.  I found that once you set it up
| correctly, the Sphinx engine is very powerful, and usually identifies
| the spoken words no matter who says them (we found it even seemed to
| work decently well with a variety different accents).
|
| -Dan Staley
|
| On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 19:07 -0400, Ajit Natarajan wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I know nothing about speech recognition, so if the following won't work,
| please let me know (gently :) ).
|
| I understand that there is a project called Sphinx in CMU which attempts
| speech recognition.  It seems pretty complex.  I couldn't get it to work
| on my Linux desktop.  I'm not sure if it would work on an FR since it
| may need a lot of CPU horsepower and memory.
|
| I see a speech project on the OM projects page.  To me, it seems like
| the project is attempting command recognition, e.g., voice dialing.
| However, it would be great if the FR can function as a rudimentary
| dictation machine, i.e., allow the user to speak and convert to text.
|
| Perhaps the following may work.
|
| 1. Ask the user to speak some standard words.  Record the speech and
| establish the mapping from the words to the corresponding speech.
| It may even be good to maintain separate databases for different
| purposes, e.g., one for UNIX command lines, one for emails, and a
| third for technical documents.
|
| 2. The speech recognizer then functions similar to a keyboard in that it
| converts speech to text which it then enters into the application
| that has focus.
|
| 3. The user must speak word by word.  The speech recognizer finds the
| closest match for the speech my checking against the recordings made
| in step 1 (and step 4).  The user may need to set the database from
| which the match must be made.
|
| 4. If there is no close match, or if the user is unhappy with the
| selection made in step 3, the user can type in the correct word.  A
| new record can be added to the appropriate database.
|
| The process may be frustrating for the user at first, but over time, the
| speech recognition should become better and better.
|
| The separate databases may be needed, for example, because the word
| period should usually translate to the symbol `.' except when writing
| about time periods when it should translate to the word `period'.
|
| I do not know what the storage requirements would be to maintain this
| database.  I do not know if the closest match algorithm in step 3 is
| even possible.  But if we could get a good dictation engine, that would
| be a killer app, in my opinion.  No more typing!  No more carpal tunnel
| injuries.  No more having to worry about small on screen keyboards that
| challenge finger typing.
|
| Thanks.
|
| Ajit
|
|
|
|
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Along with other speex to text engines (as someone else already
mentioned), it works best when the engine knows that he could have said
something in this list of pre-defined commands, and not any word in general.

It is also very good for deciding between two words, eg yes or no,
which is more useful than you would think, if you design your interface
to the user in the right way.

They also have a sphinx mobile-type of library, which seems to be very
lightweight, and might be worth looking into.

One thing I thought of is when someone tells you a number over the
phone, the phone could record and add it to the address book.

Lots of cool stuff you could do :)

- -brandon
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help needed on Nonworking/gtk+-directfb

2008-06-15 Thread ywkhong
Hi,
I'm new to OpenMoko and would like to seek for help on gtk+directfb.
I'd like to know if anyone had successfully build the OpenMoko with
gtk+-directfb before.

First approach:
I convert all the *.conf with:
  PREFERRED_PROVIDER_gtk+   ?= gtk+-directfb
It failed to include the gtk+-directfb as it conflict with other packages
that depends on gtk+ such as libgpewidget, webkit, openmoko-browser,
task-openmoko-pim, vte, xoo, fstests, etc

second approach:
start building the OpenMoko from stratch again with local.conf :
  DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS += pkgconfig directfb cairo-directfb gtk+-directfb
myhelloworld
and it failed as well.

Much appreciates on pointing me on how to get the gtk+-directfb work on the
OpenMoko.

Rgds.
weik
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Re: Why not use votation system?

2008-06-15 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Depends on what you want to get out of the opinion poll.

An expert view or a mass market view. Or a democratic expert decision?

They may (and will!) differ and my proposal would be to get a view  
into both.

Nikolaus

Am 15.06.2008 um 21:18 schrieb steve:



 Could we  weight votes by  code committed. No code. No vote.





 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele  
 Renda
 Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:25 AM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?

 Hi Steve

 I think I was a bit mis-understood.

 I didn't told that all the decisions must to be took with a votation  
 system!
 If we would do so I think we will not have a phone, but a microwave.

 My idea was only: when Openmoko has to take a decision between two
 equivalent solution and WANT to know the opinions of the comunity to  
 use a
 votation system. But only for opinion asked by OM, like it was for  
 the audio
 jacket.

 And in every case must to be clear that also if the votation say  
 choose A
 the final decision must to be tooken by OM, because you must to  
 invest on
 it.

 I hope I clarified something :)

 steve wrote:
 The complexity of the decision is deeper than that.

 It involves cost, engineering budget, schedule, price, return on
 investment, parts availability.







 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad
 Midgley
 Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:12 PM
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion
 Subject: Re: Why not use votation system?

 Michele


 Do you want feature X or feature Y?


 you might need a table representing the cost and business feasibility
 of each feature. We've seen a lot more transparency on the 3g  
 decision
 recently which reveals it to be more complicated than people thought.

 --
 Brad

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