Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Yury Sakarinen



Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller писал 2013-08-24 17:31:

For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust 
in shelf.

Why?

1/ poor power management
2/ bugged reenumerating modem

GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it 
to work
where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i 
must have
reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need 
map.


I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I 
used
N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used 
it for
GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 
50% empty
during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 
4 days.

I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS.


That is something I still don't understand. From a power budget the 
modem is
specified to have 3-10 mA in suspend while registered to a base 
station.


I have even verified this with an ampere-meter.

And there is only one potential deviation - if there is some
attenuation (e.g. wall)
there may be a situation where the modem receives the base station 
well and

tries to answer/register. But since the base station does not receive
it at all, it
tries with high power. In this case the modem current increases to 
50-100 mA.


BTW: this is the same with almost all mobile devices.

So it must be something in the OMAP system and that is IMHO the same 
as the

N900 has... So pure kernel code.

BTW: this would not change by redesigning the GTA04 into a spare N900 
case...




At that time, as the main developments are in the care of the common 
/ production / communication problems, the community should try to 
implement the microkernel (eg arm port gnu / hurd) on the existing 
architecture GTA02/04, to see the resources consumption of core servers 
(to give chance new mobile platform based on open hardware stack).





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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Radek Polak
On Saturday, August 24, 2013 03:20:10 PM joerg Reisenweber wrote:

 On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote:
  1/ poor power management
 
 [...]
 
  something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel
  and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute
  only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and
  IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there
  is not much point to improve it.
 
 many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much of
 the discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04 project
 at large.
 
 However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for poor
 power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of different OM
 distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor power management
 is way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and WLAN connection
 manager and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and whatnot else.

Yup, after playing with alsa settings i could save a few mAmps on GTA04 too.

 Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system
 status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or
 even just polling files when you should use inotify instead.
 Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and
 usually it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or operation
 time.
 
 To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
 settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
 ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
 in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
 issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
 driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
 decently working usable OS on N900.

I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit more, 
since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which really cool 
btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just PMU+RAM+modem 
turned on, everything else should be off. But something is wrong and noone has 
yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with omap enable_off_mode - but 
then we hit imprecise external abort bug so currently we have ~22mA at best. 
If you compare this with GTA02 or N900 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd 
say N900 is even better. Together with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 
barely usable even for a few hardcore supporters but unusable for normal 
users.

Regards

Radek
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Re: [Gta04-owner] Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Radek Polak
On Monday, August 26, 2013 01:17:09 PM Radek Polak wrote:

  To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
  settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
  ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
  in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
  issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
  driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
  decently working usable OS on N900.
 
 I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit
 more, since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which
 really cool btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just
 PMU+RAM+modem turned on, everything else should be off. But something is
 wrong and noone has yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with
 omap enable_off_mode - but then we hit imprecise external abort bug so
 currently we have ~22mA at best. If you compare this with GTA02 or N900
 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd say N900 is even better. Together
 with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 barely usable even for a few
 hardcore supporters but unusable for normal users.

Btw you can try even with bare rootfs. E.g. Neil Brown is running very bare 
debian with just some custom made phone app, but the power consumption is the 
same - and it's quite expected because all the userspace is stopped in 
suspend.

Regards

Radek
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 13:17:09 Radek Polak wrote:
 On Saturday, August 24, 2013 03:20:10 PM joerg Reisenweber wrote:
  On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote:
   1/ poor power management
  
  [...]
  
   something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel
   and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute
   only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and
   IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there
   is not much point to improve it.
  
  many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much
  of the discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04
  project at large.
  
  However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for
  poor power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of
  different OM distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor
  power management is way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and
  WLAN connection manager and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and
  whatnot else.
 
 Yup, after playing with alsa settings i could save a few mAmps on GTA04
 too.
 
  Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system
  status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or
  even just polling files when you should use inotify instead.
  Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and
  usually it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or
  operation time.
  
  To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
  settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
  ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
  in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
  issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
  driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
  decently working usable OS on N900.
 
 I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit
 more, since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which
 really cool btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just
 PMU+RAM+modem turned on, everything else should be off. But something is
 wrong and noone has yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with
 omap enable_off_mode - but then we hit imprecise external abort bug so
 currently we have ~22mA at best. If you compare this with GTA02 or N900
 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd say N900 is even better. Together
 with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 barely usable even for a few
 hardcore supporters but unusable for normal users.
 
 Regards
 
 Radek

Yes, absolutely (I can't confirm neither deny your facts). N900 easily goes 
down to ~10mA in *standby*, see 
http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption
and also
http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management

What I can think of are floating lines making chips eat more than they should - 
may particularly due to suspend mode.

Let's hope we'll iron that out during next few months

cheers
jOERG
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GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
Hello!

Short introduction, as I was rather inactive in this community
recently: I'm dos, long time Openmoko supporter, owner of GTA02 and
(now broken) Nokia N900. Few years ago I was quite an active developer
of FSO (opimd) and SHR. Few days ago I've created website draft for
GTA04.

As we all know, GTA04 project has few non-technical problems. Poor
demand is one of them, poor availability of parts is the second one.
Those two problems together are pretty much show stoppers, cause if we
fix one, the second one becomes harder.

But Joerg Reisenweber came up with brilliant idea of adapting GTA04
board into N900 case. Why?
- second source N900 housings are very cheap and available on eBay in
big quantities - problem with very small amount of Openmoko cases
solved
- there are still new spare parts floating around on free market

But using N900 gives us more:
- GTA04 with physical keyboard!
- screen that doesn't appear to be off in full sunlight
- it seems that while some people like Openmoko case (I do), most
rather think it's nice idea, but I wouldn't show up anywhere with
such a brick :( N900 case seems to be more commonly accepted by
public ;)

Wait, there's even more!
- if done right, we can engage Maemo community and increase the demand a lot!

There are LOTS of broken N900s in possession of Maemo community
members due to problems with faulty USB connector and GSM modem. Many
of them (owners ;)) are waiting for proper N900 successor that never
came (N9 is not, and Nokia is not interested in platform anymore at
all).

This might be great time to merge efforts from Openmoko/OpenPhoenux
and Maemo communities. Neo900 project can benefit from both of them -
there will be QtMoko/SHR/Replicant on the one side (it's just modified
GTA04, so running all of them should be very easy), and there will be
Maemo, Meego and maybe more porting initiatives on the other side.
Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!

For now we named it Neo900 - making nods to both N900 and Openmoko roots :)

I'm super excited about this idea, and it seems that I'm not the only one:
Look at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142

You can also read logs from #maemo from yesterday and today:
https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-25.log.html
https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-26.log.html

It seems there is some interest, and that's just on Maemo side :)

What do you think?

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Patryk Benderz
[cut]
 What do you think?
Hello Dos,
I think it is  great showcase how open projects can benefit from
synergy.
However I personally am not interested in HW keyboard and I will wait
until my present phone wears off, before I buy next device.

-- 
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Linux Registered User #377521
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Tomas Nackaerts
Hi all!

I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. But 
is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem 
is quite big? And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 
will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that?

But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same 
problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration)
and also i don't want to pay 600+ for a smartphone. But i hope if this idea 
takes of and there is enough interest the price will be much lower. 


greetings,

tomas






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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread arne anka
the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any  
comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be  
interested.
being interested does not necessarily translate into will buy, but at  
least it would be worth to contemplate ...


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote:
 the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any
 comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be
 interested.

Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete storage 
dropout ;-)  Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be interested 
in a pointer or citation.

cheers
jOERG
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread arne anka
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 22:25:06 +0200, joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org  
wrote:



On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote:

the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any
comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be
interested.


Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete  
storage
dropout ;-)  Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be  
interested

in a pointer or citation.

cheers
jOERG


know for sure there's a (comparatively) huge community

but when cp'ing it i discovered that i had read company instead of  
community. darn ...


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
[...]
 Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
 users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
 owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!

Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this project, 
since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and 
general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects 
compatibility.
We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all 
remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level.
On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing 
that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/

There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP:
*) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem
**) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered.
*) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus)
*) N900 has 32GB eMMC
*) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to  to 
screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color 
LED
*) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al
*) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150)
*) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply 
replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection
*) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and 
fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT 
speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout)

*)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now

Anyway, the general mood is best described by extremely excited and it seems 
it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points 
pending to get solved.

See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142

I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow he 
reads all the stuff that happened.

The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users are 
expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been 
expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless.


cheers
jOERG
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http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

2013-08-26 Thread Norayr Chilingarian
I would say, maemo fremantle is great.
if we could manage to make it free, i. e. rewrite it's non-free parts,
and make it available on more platforms, like nexus, it'll be great.
having free hardware in n900 case it good too.
but first of all let's get working free, indeed free maemo. not the
proprietary one that could be flashed from nokia images.
but the one which is possible to port to different devices. so may be
someone does not like n900 and want to use it on n9 or nexus. or
whatever phone he has.
I like SHR for that reason - there are at least a couple of platforms
supported.

08/27/13 12:57 -???, joerg Reisenweber-?  ?:
 On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 [...]
 Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
 users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
 owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!
 Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this 
 project, 
 since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and 
 general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects 
 compatibility.
 We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all 
 remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level.
 On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing 
 that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/

 There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP:
 *) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem
 **) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered.
 *) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus)
 *) N900 has 32GB eMMC
 *) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to  to 
 screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color 
 LED
 *) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al
 *) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150)
 *) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply 
 replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection
 *) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and 
 fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT 
 speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout)

 *)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now

 Anyway, the general mood is best described by extremely excited and it 
 seems 
 it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points 
 pending to get solved.

 See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142

 I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow 
 he 
 reads all the stuff that happened.

 The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users 
 are 
 expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been 
 expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless.


 cheers
 jOERG


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread NeilBrown
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:31:19 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
h...@goldelico.com wrote:

 Hm. That sounds quite different from the situation about 1 year ago when
 you did the first releases of QtMoko and I always thought that the
 3.7 kernel is working well enough, so that I started to add new features.
 
 Has it become worse since then?

I like drawing graphs.  So I did - see attachment.

For the last year or so my GTA04 has been logging the power usage during
suspend for every suspend cycle longer than a few seconds.  I do this by 
reading the charge_now value from the bq27000 in the battery, comparing the
before and after values, and dividing by the number of seconds.

I currently have my phone configured to wake from suspend every 5 minutes,
check that the modem is still working, and go back to suspend.  This has
helped collect quite a lot of values.

To get the graphs I collected all those values, discarded negative numbers
(when the battery was charging) and a few numbers that were clearly
ridiculous (numbers more than 1 amp), and sorted the remainder.


So we get a cumulative frequency graph of different current levels.

The red line ('/tmp/uamp') is for the last couple of days since last reboot. 
This is running 3.7 with offmode disabled.
The green line ('tmp/uamp2') is for the last year, running a variety of
different kernels.

Obviously there is a very different number of samples in each. 342 in uamp
10031 in uamp2.  So I normalised the X values so the graphs are comparable.
They are much the same shape which suggests  the pattern is fairly robust.

The Y axis is microamps.
The green values below 2 (20mA) are with offmode enabled I assume.
The red values are all greater because I have offmode turned off to improve
reliability.

The steps are a bit of a surprise.  They are all about 2mA.  I don't think
this is an artefact of the precision with which measurements are taken as the
charge value read from the battery has a much higher precision.
I think it must be an actual 2mA difference in (average) current usage.
This could be 2mA more for the whole time, or 4mA more with a 50% duty cycle
etc.

So if we can make off-mode really usable (which possibly means find and fix
some bug in the omap usb code) and if we can find out what is causing these
2mA steps and resolve that, then might might be a little closer to
acceptable power usage.

I might try running for a while with the modem turned off and see what result
I get.

NeilBrown
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