Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
Norayr Chilingarian nor...@arnet.am wrote: Hehe, flashed your image! http://norayr.arnet.am/tmp/2013-11-09/Screenshot-2_patched.png Nice! Thanks a lot. You're welcome. :) I don't use gsm usually, I'll check how gprs works over gsm. It did not work before, usually SHR did not want to connect. [...] But I would like to learn to establish gprs connection from console. Right now all my knowledge of GPRS consists of just this one paragraph from Harald Welte's paper: http://laforge.gnumonks.org/papers/gsm_phone-anatomy-latest.pdf (Paragraph 6.1 on page 8 in the PDF.) Given this highly limited amount of GPRS knowledge on my part, I'm afraid that I won't be of much help with GPRS until *much* later down the road, when I'm ready to try integrating (and learning) GPRS, well after I get all basic GSM functionality (voice, SMS and CSD) fully working in the gcc-built FC GSM fw. P. S. one day I'll play with IMEI too. Have fun! Here are some tools to get you started: ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/FreeCalypso/mpffs-tools-r1.tar.bz2 In another msg: I can already tell that I could not use sms's previously, they did not work. I just received many sms's after reboot, and I was able to remove them. It did not work before. Now this is truly interesting - are you saying that you are seeing differences in SMS handling behaviour between moko11 and my leo2moko, and that leo2moko works better for you in this regard? Details, please! I find it rather improbable that moko11 would have a fatal defect in something as basic as handling incoming SMS, hence me trying to understand exactly what it was that didn't work for you with moko11 and got fixed with leo2moko. Don't get me wrong, I would *love* to find out that my fw has some actual functional improvement over moko11, beyond the feel good of having a viewable source, but let's first confirm that it's real and not imaginary... VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
So, I were getting messages in SHR, that the SIM SMS card storage is full, and I need to remove some messages. However by running SMS program in SHR I could not get list of messages previously. Neither I can get this list now. What is interesting, is that after second reboot it had received a bunch of messages, each of them I could remove upon reading. Those messages were actually old. I had to see them and remove long time ago. May be that's SHR issue, because as far as I remember, SMS program in QtMoko could get list of messages. What's also interesting, I have an impression, that power managment works much better. With turned on gsm, it lasts more than 3-4 hours, as before. I'll measure how long will it stay today. But I already see it's becoming usable. Yes, I did not fix hardware. No, I did not enable deep sleep in /etc/frameworkd.conf. So I did not do anything to fix the issue. It seems that just with this firmware power management works better. That was also one of the reasons I wanted to try this firmware. Though I did not have great hopes it will make change, because I have read that hardware fix is necessary, but anyway, at least there is an improvement for sure. I had moko11 before. Another note. Previously, probably after sleep (SHR puts device to sleep by default) GSM did not want to return very often. Now, once it did not return, and simply turning off on on GSM from the Settings helped very fast. As far as I remember, with moko11 firmware, usually reboot was necessary to get the GSM back. Now this is truly interesting - are you saying that you are seeing differences in SMS handling behaviour between moko11 and my leo2moko, and that leo2moko works better for you in this regard? Details, please! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
I have documented what I have done, and I have a manual draft on my computer. If I can get a wiki account, I will add the information there. 11/10/13 01:33 -ում, Norayr Chilingarian-ը գրել է: So, I were getting messages in SHR, that the SIM SMS card storage is full, and I need to remove some messages. However by running SMS program in SHR I could not get list of messages previously. Neither I can get this list now. What is interesting, is that after second reboot it had received a bunch of messages, each of them I could remove upon reading. Those messages were actually old. I had to see them and remove long time ago. May be that's SHR issue, because as far as I remember, SMS program in QtMoko could get list of messages. What's also interesting, I have an impression, that power managment works much better. With turned on gsm, it lasts more than 3-4 hours, as before. I'll measure how long will it stay today. But I already see it's becoming usable. Yes, I did not fix hardware. No, I did not enable deep sleep in /etc/frameworkd.conf. So I did not do anything to fix the issue. It seems that just with this firmware power management works better. That was also one of the reasons I wanted to try this firmware. Though I did not have great hopes it will make change, because I have read that hardware fix is necessary, but anyway, at least there is an improvement for sure. I had moko11 before. Another note. Previously, probably after sleep (SHR puts device to sleep by default) GSM did not want to return very often. Now, once it did not return, and simply turning off on on GSM from the Settings helped very fast. As far as I remember, with moko11 firmware, usually reboot was necessary to get the GSM back. Now this is truly interesting - are you saying that you are seeing differences in SMS handling behaviour between moko11 and my leo2moko, and that leo2moko works better for you in this regard? Details, please! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
On Sun 10 November 2013 10:33:47 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: What's also interesting, I have an impression, that power managment works much better. With turned on gsm, it lasts more than 3-4 hours, as before. I'll measure how long will it stay today. But I already see it's becoming usable. Yes, I did not fix hardware. No, I did not enable deep sleep in /etc/frameworkd.conf. So I did not do anything to fix the issue. Are you *sure* about that? Starting your room heating may already suffice - no kidding. Please don't try to outsmart the experts. #1024 been pretty complex and I suggest you learn about it before claiming moko11 has a bug regarding that. :-/ cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
On Sun 10 November 2013 11:15:22 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: I have documented what I have done, and I have a manual draft on my computer. If I can get a wiki account, I will add the information there. A good example why we should keep wiki in moderated mode. All you could contribute based on your reports so far is mere random noise confusing the hell out of users. Neither #1024 nor SMS nor power management is *ANY* related to the modem firmware - you are *definitely* observing (and spreading as facts?) some random effects that have no correlation whatsoever. Now adding this to wiki would cause another few dozen (or hundreds) of users to eventually try to reproduce your achievements and add their own success stories to wiki, suggesting even more snakeoil and doing more havok to the system and the info available. As a general rule don't spread any info when you can't *teach* people about tha basics of that info - here: as long as you don't have a story which code in calypso firmware needs to get changed in which way and why, to achieve a certain improvement, youplese don't even think about suggesting messing with this stuff in wiki or elsewhere. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
What I would write in wiki is step by step instructions how to build the firmware, free loader, and flash it. I don't think it can confuse someone in some way. What about moderation, then, well, what you are saying is against collaborative work, like it is in Wikipedia. Everyone, by even not having Wikipedia account could go and write everything he wants. However, as we see, there are more sane people rather than idiots, and Wikipedia is mostly correct. I believe no one should decide what I have a right to write before even seeing the text. And when that's done after, then it's often called censorship - when someone does not want some information published. I believe in discussions, in talks. When all the points of view are expressed, and people may choose between them, or new idea is born. Also, people choose themselves whether they want to be misleaded. They have a right to choose. 11/10/13 06:10 -ում, joerg Reisenweber-ը գրել է: On Sun 10 November 2013 11:15:22 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: I have documented what I have done, and I have a manual draft on my computer. If I can get a wiki account, I will add the information there. A good example why we should keep wiki in moderated mode. All you could contribute based on your reports so far is mere random noise confusing the hell out of users. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
I know, that people tend to make connection between events. I know, that often it is useful, and often it is wrong to make those connections. I don't know why do I see an improvement, and I accept the possibility, that it's because of other firmware. How can we know if it is? More testing, more users trying it. Try the firmware and write there your observations. Measure something if you can. 11/10/13 05:56 -ում, joerg Reisenweber-ը գրել է: On Sun 10 November 2013 10:33:47 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: What's also interesting, I have an impression, that power managment works much better. With turned on gsm, it lasts more than 3-4 hours, as before. I'll measure how long will it stay today. But I already see it's becoming usable. Yes, I did not fix hardware. No, I did not enable deep sleep in /etc/frameworkd.conf. So I did not do anything to fix the issue. Are you *sure* about that? Starting your room heating may already suffice - no kidding. Please don't try to outsmart the experts. #1024 been pretty complex and I suggest you learn about it before claiming moko11 has a bug regarding that. :-/ cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
On Sun 10 November 2013 18:03:36 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: I know, that people tend to make connection between events. I know, that often it is useful, and often it is wrong to make those connections. I don't know why do I see an improvement, and I accept the possibility, that it's because of other firmware. How can we know if it is? More testing, more users trying it. Try the firmware and write there your observations. Measure something if you can. Pretty evil and rogue approach to suggest coming up with some nonsense that other more competent people tell you is definitely unrelated, and suggest other people should waste their time on trying to reproduce your findings, while you can't come up with any sane story why those patches or fixes you claim to see are real. How about this: my last 3 firmware flashes were in the night between 3:00 and 3:30, I claim this could mean something worth investigating and now I ask other users to get up in the night and reflash their modem firmware to verify they see more responsiveness in scrolling screens after that. *maybe* you're able to get my point. And no, this is NOT about censorship, this is about taking care of OM's customer base, protecting them from suggestions to clean their device in dishwasher engine and the like. BR jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
Quoth Norayr Chilingarian: What I would write in wiki is step by step instructions how to build the firmware, free loader, and flash it. I don't think it can confuse someone in some way. What about moderation, then, well, what you are saying is against collaborative work, like it is in Wikipedia. Everyone, by even not having Wikipedia account could go and write everything he wants. However, as we see, there are more sane people rather than idiots, and Wikipedia is mostly correct. I think Joerg was worried about you writing a page saying this firmware improves power consumption before more testing and consulting with more knowledgeable people. I'm sure we all agree that a place to discuss ideas and possibilities (as wrong as they may turn out to be) is valuable, but Joerg has no doubt been around long enough to have to deal with the fallout of those discussions / conjectures being left in places where people take theories that had been disproved elsewhere as fact, and shared the disinformation wider. Which ultimately can give a bad impression to a project, as well as bad experience to others. Which is a long way of saying: the mailing list is the best place for discussion, and the wiki should be reserved for things which we are more sure about. So instructions on building and loading the firmware would be fine for the wiki, but speculations about its power saving (or sms receiving) improvements are best for the mailing list. Which I know is what you suggested, but that wasn't clear initially. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
On Sun 10 November 2013 18:27:45 Nick wrote: Quoth Norayr Chilingarian: What I would write in wiki is step by step instructions how to build the firmware, free loader, and flash it. I don't think it can confuse someone in some way. What about moderation, then, well, what you are saying is against collaborative work, like it is in Wikipedia. Everyone, by even not having Wikipedia account could go and write everything he wants. However, as we see, there are more sane people rather than idiots, and Wikipedia is mostly correct. I think Joerg was worried about you writing a page saying this firmware improves power consumption before more testing and consulting with more knowledgeable people. I'm sure we all agree that a place to discuss ideas and possibilities (as wrong as they may turn out to be) is valuable, but Joerg has no doubt been around long enough to have to deal with the fallout of those discussions / conjectures being left in places where people take theories that had been disproved elsewhere as fact, and shared the disinformation wider. Which ultimately can give a bad impression to a project, as well as bad experience to others. Which is a long way of saying: the mailing list is the best place for discussion, and the wiki should be reserved for things which we are more sure about. So instructions on building and loading the firmware would be fine for the wiki, but speculations about its power saving (or sms receiving) improvements are best for the mailing list. Which I know is what you suggested, but that wasn't clear initially. !00% ACK, sorry if that wasn't clear enough from what I wrote. Thanks for helping me out :-) /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
Wow, I went to bed after my last post, and when I got up this morning, there had been a lively discussion between Norayr, Joerg and Nick! As much as I would love to be proven wrong on this, I consider it *very* unlikely that there is any functional defect in moko11 which somehow gets magically fixed with my current leo2moko transitional step. There probably *are* bugs galore in TI's binary object libs which contain the bulk of the GSM protocol stack, likely even buffer overflow etc bugs which could be exploited by someone setting up a rogue BTS and feeding control packets over the air containing things which shouldn't happen - but if such bugs are present in moko11, they are probably present in all versions of TI's TCS211 binary libs, including the versions used in my current leo2moko port, hence we don't have a fix for that malady yet. The LoCosto source at http://scottn.us/downloads/peek/ does have the GSM/GPRS protocol stack in full source form (aside from GPF, which appears to have been distributed as binary libs even inside TI!), and I do seek to replace our current blobs with this LoCosto version, but before we can do that, I first need to go through the hellish process of reintegrating all of the lower-level pieces (basically everything under chipsetsw in the leo2moko source tree) into my Unix/gcc build environment - and I'm just starting on that one, currently trying to figure out why the RVT task is not emitting system time trace messages every 20 s like it should... In the meantime, the only gain which the community can get from my leo2moko transitional step is the change from a black box to a glass box: you can see all of the sources and binary objects from which I have built my fw, the binary objects contain a good amount of symbolic information making disassembly quite practical, and there is a map file from the linker which shows what every byte in the final flashable binary is for and what it corresponds to in the source. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
Okay, I see what you say. As Nick mentioned I would write instructions in wiki. As I have written previously in this mailing list, it would be good if someone could document how to build and flash it step by step. Wiki is good for collaborative editing, and if I have made unnecessary steps, someone may fix my howto. It's editable. On the other side nobody can prevent me from writing any bullishit at my own site or wiki, where only I have access to. Thus collaborative wiki is always more trustable than separate one with controlled access. Even if I were writing there nonsense, the text is digital and editable, unlike cuneiform it's cut in stone. 11/10/13 09:19 -ում, joerg Reisenweber-ը գրել է: On Sun 10 November 2013 18:03:36 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: I know, that people tend to make connection between events. I know, that often it is useful, and often it is wrong to make those connections. I don't know why do I see an improvement, and I accept the possibility, that it's because of other firmware. How can we know if it is? More testing, more users trying it. Try the firmware and write there your observations. Measure something if you can. Pretty evil and rogue approach to suggest coming up with some nonsense that other more competent people tell you is definitely unrelated, and suggest other people should waste their time on trying to reproduce your findings, while you can't come up with any sane story why those patches or fixes you claim to see are real. How about this: my last 3 firmware flashes were in the night between 3:00 and 3:30, I claim this could mean something worth investigating and now I ask other users to get up in the night and reflash their modem firmware to verify they see more responsiveness in scrolling screens after that. *maybe* you're able to get my point. And no, this is NOT about censorship, this is about taking care of OM's customer base, protecting them from suggestions to clean their device in dishwasher engine and the like. BR jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
Also, I never did write anything about moko11 bugs. I don't know about them. I did write that my perception is, this firmware seem to have better power management. I believe in medicine, and I don't believe in ghosts. If you say, it's unrelated, I don't argue. What can I say now, it worked ~10 hours with GSM turned on, had two reboots, and still has 63% of battery power. May be that's connected to heating or something else. But my device became usable, I was writing that it had problems in this mailing list a couple of weeks ago. About wiki, first of all, we have new, legally free (in those repressive countries (: ) tool - the flasher. Secondly we have the alternative firmware _with_source code. I belive it worth to write there about free flasher, how to build it, and how to use it, not only with leo2moko port. The flasher can be used to flash moko11 too. Also, it worth to write there how to build the leo2moko firmware. Anyone may add whatever political concern she has to the same wiki page. 11/10/13 09:32 -???, joerg Reisenweber-? ?: On Sun 10 November 2013 18:27:45 Nick wrote: Quoth Norayr Chilingarian: What I would write in wiki is step by step instructions how to build the firmware, free loader, and flash it. I don't think it can confuse someone in some way. What about moderation, then, well, what you are saying is against collaborative work, like it is in Wikipedia. Everyone, by even not having Wikipedia account could go and write everything he wants. However, as we see, there are more sane people rather than idiots, and Wikipedia is mostly correct. I think Joerg was worried about you writing a page saying this firmware improves power consumption before more testing and consulting with more knowledgeable people. I'm sure we all agree that a place to discuss ideas and possibilities (as wrong as they may turn out to be) is valuable, but Joerg has no doubt been around long enough to have to deal with the fallout of those discussions / conjectures being left in places where people take theories that had been disproved elsewhere as fact, and shared the disinformation wider. Which ultimately can give a bad impression to a project, as well as bad experience to others. Which is a long way of saying: the mailing list is the best place for discussion, and the wiki should be reserved for things which we are more sure about. So instructions on building and loading the firmware would be fine for the wiki, but speculations about its power saving (or sms receiving) improvements are best for the mailing list. Which I know is what you suggested, but that wasn't clear initially. !00% ACK, sorry if that wasn't clear enough from what I wrote. Thanks for helping me out :-) /j ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware
On Sun 10 November 2013 22:53:55 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: About wiki, first of all, we have new, legally free (in those repressive countries (: ) tool - the flasher. Secondly we have the alternative firmware _with_source code. I belive it worth to write there about free flasher, how to build it, and how to use it, not only with leo2moko port. The flasher can be used to flash moko11 too. Also, it worth to write there how to build the leo2moko firmware. Anyone may add whatever political concern she has to the same wiki page. Absolutely. nothing wrong in instructions how to build and flash new calypso firmware. Just please don't sugest it might fix issues that users may conceive they have. Placebo effect is all powerful. And more users flashing new firmware and then looking for any improvements they might want to spot will result in more such reports about new firmware improves XYZ which agian pulls in new users tempted to try and believe. By all means write instructions based on clear facts! We need those. Sorry if I sounded rude. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
