Re: changing IMEI
On Thu 20 February 2014 12:05:00 Christoph Pulster wrote: Hi, @joerg: sorry we mis-communicate. No we don't. Or at least I don't. ;-) I am not talking about tracking (location of caller), me neither since that's absolutely trivial but identification of caller. me too If I buy a mobile, name is registered and connected with IMEI. Depends. Using a Openmoko and changing IMEI with Michaels tool does make a new device out of it. Logfiles cant be law prooven evident of my identity. Sorry, that's a dangerous misconception. Again, just in case I still didn't manage to make it clear enough: there is nobody else but you on this earth calling those 3 phone numbers (unless you call numbers that are getting called by 0.5mio users per day). Simply compare who called number A during last year, and who also called number B during last year already reduces number of individuals to max 10. Then check which of those 10 individuals doesn't use her/his old IMEI anymore and here you are: old IMEI linked to new fake IMEI. With only 2 calls done from your new SIM and IMEI to your wife and your mother (or any other arbitrary two normal phone numbers you called before). This will hold for evidence on any court, better than fingerprints. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
At Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:11:33 +0100, joerg Reisenweber wrote: On Thu 20 February 2014 12:05:00 Christoph Pulster wrote: Hi, @joerg: sorry we mis-communicate. No we don't. Or at least I don't. ;-) I am not talking about tracking (location of caller), me neither since that's absolutely trivial but identification of caller. me too If I buy a mobile, name is registered and connected with IMEI. Depends. Using a Openmoko and changing IMEI with Michaels tool does make a new device out of it. Logfiles cant be law prooven evident of my identity. Sorry, that's a dangerous misconception. Again, just in case I still didn't manage to make it clear enough: there is nobody else but you on this earth calling those 3 phone numbers (unless you call numbers that are getting called by 0.5mio users per day). Simply compare who called number A during last year, and who also called number B during last year already reduces number of individuals to max 10. Then check which of those 10 individuals doesn't use her/his old IMEI anymore and here you are: old IMEI linked to new fake IMEI. With only 2 calls done from your new SIM and IMEI to your wife and your mother (or any other arbitrary two normal phone numbers you called before). This will hold for evidence on any court, better than fingerprints. Why do you think the only use for a mobile phone is to make calls? If I only make a data connection and am careful to tunnel all of my data via Tor, then this identification method is useful. Neal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
On Thu 20 February 2014 15:27:33 Neal H. Walfield wrote: Why do you think the only use for a mobile phone is to make calls? If I only make a data connection and am careful to tunnel all of my data via Tor, then this identification method is useful. Neal Err, right. For that usecase it might work - until you do *anything* that gives away your ID, which is even more easy in internet than in a GSM call (think searching for 2 or 3 topics on google which are specific to you. Or visiting 2 or 3 specific websites, maybe even in a certain specific usage pattern. Obviously you can't use email or anything like that. And google [and others] might be able to identify you from your typing style and rhythm into the search term textfield already). And no, you probably can't use a VPN to have only encrypted data transferred over the air. I don't think there are any free and open VPN endpoints available. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
Why do you think the only use for a mobile phone is to make calls? If I only make a data connection and am careful to tunnel all of my data via Tor, then this identification method is useful. Maybe because we are talking about a GSM modem? -- n...@el-hennig.de Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug.___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
On Thu 20 February 2014 15:27:33 Neal H. Walfield wrote: and am careful to tunnel all of my data via Tor Recent tests have revealed that at least 20 nodes in Tor are trying to break into your encrypted data transmission. It'd widely known that Tor is infiltrated by agencies. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
joerg Reisenweber wrote: On Thu 20 February 2014 15:27:33 Neal H. Walfield wrote: and am careful to tunnel all of my data via Tor Err, right. For that usecase it might work - until you do *anything* that gives away your ID You still have location anonymity though. An adversary may identify that someone is accessing an email account through the Tor network, but not where they are. Recent tests have revealed that at least 20 nodes in Tor are trying to break into your encrypted data transmission. That issue was explained in more detail at: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/what-spoiled-onions-paper-means-tor-users The bad relays were blocked as soon as they were discovered. The Tor project is damn good at discussing and presenting vulnerabilities in the open, and figuring out best ways of mitigating / defeating them. It'd widely known that Tor is infiltrated by agencies. From the Snowden disclosures so far, they actually have not been very successful at breaking Tor at all. Far less so than most people expected, really. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
openm...@pulster.de (Christoph Pulster) wrote: I remember adverts of Openmoko in capitals 100% FREE mobile. that this was a false promise comes evident afterwards. I wonder how many people forked over their $$$ for those expensive Openmoko phones primarily in the hope that the bloody NDA would get broken by someone in a year or two, and were utterly disappointed when that didn't happen. I am convinced that the number is quite large, and the only thing that made me stand out is that I *voiced* this sentiment openly, without beating around the bush. I am also convinced that the *real* reason why Openmoko = failure in the general public's perception is precisely because of that NDA and no one having broken it during the years when it mattered the most. The Freerunner became truly free only on 2013-10-13, some 5y (or is it 6y?) after its introduction and 4y after cessation of production, at exactly 04:08:54 CEST, the date of this announcement: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2013-October/069010.html Prior to that announcement, i.e., at 04:08:53 CEST and for the 6y of Om community history prior to that, the Unfree-runner was a proprietary phone no different from anything out of Motorola, Samsung or Apple. But I'm afraid that the liberation came a little too late: I keep hearing the number 15k units made and sold being tossed around, but of those 15k units, after we subtract those which were cannibalized for plastic parts to stuff nasty Qualcomm modems into and those which got repurposed for some non-telephony uses, I suspect that the remaining ones are probably buried some place deep, forgotten by their owners who gave up on them when a few years passed after Om's disbanding, and yet no free GSM firmware emerged. Oh, and to add a little feminine perspective on the matter, when I told the Openmoko story (100% FREE mobile phone! - oh, oops, no, not the cellphone part) to my lady, her reaction was it would be like me saying I am only half-pregnant! I would argue that Om's biggest mistake, the one that led to their downfall, was the silly half-pregnant attempt to do it legally. It should have been done as a 100% explicitly-illegal black market operation instead. Hiring law-abiding Germans to run the show was the #1 mistake - the operation should have been run by the Chinese/Taiwanese instead. Contrary to what has been said, they did NOT have to sign the NDAs as they did - surely if the show were run by Chinese/Taiwanese without a single German on staff, they could have simply used the warez floating around that giant country. (As just one data point, the TSM30 source - *full source* - was published in 2004, at least 2y before Om came onto the scene.) The Calypso etc chips are easily sourceable on the grey market: some legit company buys 100k chipsets from TI, makes 90k phones, the remaining 10k chipsets sell on the grey market w/o unnecessary questions. The physical production of phones should have been done in some unmarked basement without any legit company attached, so there would be no one to sue, and the distribution (sales) should have been done through the same channels used to market and sell alternative medicine products like cocaine and heroin. But oh well, history is what it is. the knowledge about NDA restrictions of GSM components is still today only in some geek's mind. Huh? I'm afraid I don't follow what you are saying here. The GSM mini-Wikileaks collection at ftp://ftp.ifctf.org/pub/GSM/ now has *everything* related to Calypso and other related chipsets from TI, probably more than Om ever had. The documentation for the actual hardware components has been on my FTP site since the fall of 2011 (downloaded from 52rd.com where it had been available to those who can navigate in Chinese for much longer), and we now have TI's TCS211 fw deliverable semi-src no different from the one Om had, if we make the reasonable assumption that all of TI's chipset customers got identical or near-identical fw starting point deliverables. We even have an equivalent TI deliverable (hw docs + fw semi-src) for their LoCosto chipset (one of Calypso's successors), and while I have no desire to use LoCosto instead of Calypso (LoCosto has some freedom- reducing improvements), the LoCosto semi-src is something like 95% real C source (unlike the TCS211/Calypso/Leonardo one on which the current leo2moko port is based), hence I plan on using chunks of code from the LoCosto source to replace some of the binary-only libs in the TCS211 version. So the liberation part of the FreeCalypso project is now 100% done; what remains now is the (quite hard) purely technical work of reintegrating all of the pieces back together to build the fw using gcc without any Weendoze tools or blobs. As long as there are big players like government and companys, a 100% open mobile will never happen. Never. Of course it will never happen legally, but so what? We can build it illegally instead. Building an
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
On Thu 20 February 2014 20:38:35 Michael Spacefalcon wrote: was a proprietary phone no different from anything out of Motorola, Samsung or Apple. evidently bullshit! -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: changing IMEI
Hi, On 20 Feb 2014 12:05:00 +0100 openm...@pulster.de (Christoph Pulster) wrote: I remember adverts of Openmoko in capitals 100% FREE mobile. that this was a false promise comes evident afterwards. the knowledge about NDA restrictions of GSM components is still today only in some geek's mind. As long as there are big players like government and companys, a 100% open mobile will never happen. Never. 100% of what? That is the question here. You can see 100% of the software running of the application processor, 100% of everything running on some coprocessors. 100% of pcb schematics available, 100% of documentation available. 100% of inner layouts of microchips + microcode. Freedom to use 100% of available phone radio natworks (including the areas where no 2G but 3G is available. Greetings Andreas Kemnade signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
Of course it will never happen legally, but so what? We can build it illegally instead. You are a Pied Piper of Hamelin. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
On Fri 21 February 2014 07:29:28 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Of course it will never happen legally, but so what? We can build it illegally instead. You are a Pied Piper of Hamelin. Let's hope we don't have to read Pied Piper Revisited or learn about some landslide or somesuch, in a few years. ;-P /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
On Fri 21 February 2014 07:48:02 joerg Reisenweber wrote: On Fri 21 February 2014 07:29:28 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Of course it will never happen legally, but so what? We can build it illegally instead. You are a Pied Piper of Hamelin. Let's hope we don't have to read Pied Piper Revisited or learn about some landslide or somesuch, in a few years. ;-P /j And particularly: who's Rumpelstiltskin? And is OM == Shrek? -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: You are a Pied Piper of Hamelin. I don't mind the role. Check out The Stolen Child, poem/song by William Butler Yeats - I particularly like this rendition: http://www.elvendrums.com/cddragon.php VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
On Thursday, February 20, 2014 08:38:35 PM Michael Spacefalcon wrote: I am also convinced that the *real* reason why Openmoko = failure in the general public's perception is precisely because of that NDA and no one having broken it during the years when it mattered the most. That's your point of view. Point of view of a firmware hacker. But there are other points of view. E.g. some people expect the phone ring when friends/wife/customer calls. I had many phones before and 2 phones after (N900 and now Jolla). None of them had any problems with SMS and telephony. Openmoko is different - they never provided SW for reliable phone. Openmoko never provided stable maintainable kernel - instead they wasted their time on doing 4 ugly unusable distros while at the time they had perfectly stable usable and working Qtopia. And even 5 years after there is no good kernel for Freerunner. 2.6.29-rc seems quite stable but the patch against mainline is horrible, besides it's power management is worse then it could be. 2.6.39 has hardly nearly unreproducible problem with resume. Now we have free firmware which is cool, but the usablity of the phone hasnt changed much. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)
Am 21.02.2014 um 08:26 schrieb Radek Polak: On Thursday, February 20, 2014 08:38:35 PM Michael Spacefalcon wrote: I am also convinced that the *real* reason why Openmoko = failure in the general public's perception is precisely because of that NDA and no one having broken it during the years when it mattered the most. That's your point of view. Point of view of a firmware hacker. and someone who wants to modify history to fit his argumentation. But there are other points of view. E.g. some people expect the phone ring when friends/wife/customer calls. I had many phones before and 2 phones after (N900 and now Jolla). None of them had any problems with SMS and telephony. Yes. This is one important factor. The other one was simply the economic hiccup end of 2008 why OM had to cancel the already developed GTA03 for simple economic reasons. Openmoko is different - they never provided SW for reliable phone. Openmoko never provided stable maintainable kernel This is completely different with the GTA04 and why I invite every remaining Openmoko GTA01/02 owner to cannibalize their device for a GTA04A5 motherboard. Because that goal is within reach with the GTA04. We have not reached the goal to get the 100% complete and optimal kernel from kernel.org or debian.org, but are working on a 3.14 kernel and getting things mainline (already with some success). And Replicant 4.2 is starting to work as well. BTW: more support for that work from the community would speed up progress. - instead they wasted their time on doing 4 ugly unusable distros while at the time they had perfectly stable usable and working Qtopia. And even 5 years after there is no good kernel for Freerunner. 2.6.29-rc seems quite stable but the patch against mainline is horrible, besides it's power management is worse then it could be. 2.6.39 has hardly nearly unreproducible problem with resume. Now we have free firmware which is cool, but the usablity of the phone hasnt changed much. Except for QtMoko which IMHO also should get more support to optimize the last 2%. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
