Re: Problem compiling openmoko with MokoMakefile
Hi, On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 00:54 -0700, Gary Oliver wrote: I've been trying to get the openmoko build (using the super Makefile) to go for the last few days without complete success. I believe I've followed the instructions with respect to the system requirements, and the build DOES get through about 12 hours of work (about 400meg has been downloaded and the build directory contains about 5 Gb before failing, so it seems to be quite well along. The failure comes at: NOTE: package gtk+-directfb-2.10.9-r0: task do_fetch: completed NOTE: package gtk+-directfb-2.10.9-r0: task do_unpack: started NOTE: Unpacking /home/go/Projects/openmoko/sources/gtk+-2.10.9.tar.bz2 to /home/go/Projects/openmoko/build/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/gtk+-directfb-2.10.9-r0/ NOTE: package gtk+-directfb-2.10.9-r0: task do_unpack: completed NOTE: package gtk+-directfb-2.10.9-r0: task do_patch: started NOTE: Applying patch 'no-xwc.patch' ERROR: Error in executing: /home/go/Projects/openmoko/openembedded/packages/gtk+/gtk+-directfb_2.10.9.bb ERROR: Exception:exceptions.IOError Message:[Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/go/Projects/openmoko/openembedded/packages/gtk+/files/./no-xwc.patch' Which appears to be a failure to apply a patchfile no-xwc.patch which doesn't seem to be part of the source tree at this point. The files directory contains only migration.patch. Has anyone else seen this, and if so, what bit of detail in the instructions did I fail to notice that's causing this? Well it seems that OE takes the wrong preferred provider for gtk. One easy and dirty hack is removing the /home/go/Projects/openmoko/openembedded/packages/gtk+/gtk +-directfb_2.10.9.bb file. However it makes monotone complain on update. I do not know if it hurts the monotone update. However there must be a better solution I do not know about. Cheers, Philippe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Hi, First of all I do not intend to flame you. So no hard feelings towards you. However there are some important points regarding flash that lots of people tend to ignore. The flash situation is interesting. I spend a large part of my time doing flash development, and the pervasiveness and importance of the flash platform creates a really serious problem with the religious perspective about everything openmoko being open source. So you admit being one of those evil people that make websites inaccessable. Not only for people who think flash is evil because it is closed, but also for those who think the flash licence is unacceptable (like me. No I do NOT want to grant Adobe access to my computer because I install their flash plugin.) or for the blind. Flash is a critical element of the internet ecosystem and it is closed source. Gnash is *not* a solution. I can tell you this as someone who spends hours a day in the flash environment. Flash is moving far too fast to use only a platform that is **years** behind for the benefit of being purely open source. Well gnash is improving, it is really slow though and eats lots of resources. But apart from the missing features due to lack of documentation, flash itself is unsuitable for embedded systems due to being a huge resource hog. The proprietary flash plugins on the Nokia 770 and n800 are so slow just because they don't have so much processing power to spend on it. Flash btw kills battery life on those devices, just as it does on my laptop and will on an OpenMoko phone. A quick glance at the system requirements (for Linux as they seem to be a bit lower for Windows). 800Mhz cpu (which means x86 based with floating point), 512Mb of ram and 128Mb of graphics memory. Lets look at the Neo. 200Mhz ARM WITHOUT floating point, 128Mb ram and no real graphics memory... The flash development community, of which I am a part, is aggressively taking advantage of new features and the adoption of the latest version (flash 9) is faster than any previous version. Unless you work for Adobe you are part of the flash user community... As I see it, not having a real version of flash makes openmoko much less disruptively competitive than it might otherwise be. Which is partly true. However downloading flash over GPRS is not very interesting. And it would only be disruptive because unfortunately so many people are expecting people to install flash. What would be really disruptive is an standardized and open framework that allows the same things as flash which everybody could with relative ease make use of. Something that might be supported by default in a browser. Adobe has a stranglehold monopoly on this flash thing at the moment. Which makes them no better than Microsoft messing up the HTML standard with IE and Frontpage. Developing apps with flash really allows for the creation of much more sophisticated software much more quickly. It is true that flash has some nice features, however using something that is open and standardized has a lot more possibilities. Lots of things that can be done with flash could also be done with SVG etc... Of course flash 9 is currently not compiled for ARM, but that will come. I just think that it would be incredibly valuable to the platform to get flash 9 as soon as possible and not to worry about the open religion in this arena. As I pointed out there are also valid technical reasons like performance and battery life. Also licensing, access to the source code for optimisations and patents are an issue. If the internet can survive with some closed source apps, openmoko can too. I would rather say the internet survives despite closed source and non-standard apps and tools. Regards, Philippe --- Scarlet ADSL Unlimited - Only 24,95 euro per month. Max download Speed up to 6 Mbps, download volume of 30 GB. Order now... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Flash Player 9 on OpenMoko?
Hi, First of all apologies for my webmail client who broke the threading. I am at home now where I do not need it, so hopefully this will be respected now. On Thu, 2007-03-22 at 13:28 -0400, hank williams wrote: So you admit being one of those evil people that make websites inaccessable. Ah yes, you don't mean to flame, but flash and I are evil. Well in any case you have just invalidated everything else that you say which follows. Seems irony is lost on you. If I meant to say you were evil I would not have put it between quotes. That phrase was also the reason why I pointed out I did not want to flame. However this seems to have allowed you to ignore my point about accessability for blind and vision impaired people amongst others and write an angry mail. And getting back to my point the fact that Adobe's EULA and licensing is soo horrible bad does not help. (And yes there are a few, next to useless accessability features in the recent flash versions before you attack me on that.) A quick glance at the system requirements (for Linux as they seem to be a bit lower for Windows). 800Mhz cpu (which means x86 based with floating point), 512Mb of ram and 128Mb of graphics memory. Lets look at the Neo. 200Mhz ARM WITHOUT floating point, 128Mb ram and no real graphics memory... Adobe produces a mobile version that is not yet flash 9 compatible. The resource requirements are different. As I said before flash 9 is not ready for mobile (ARM) devices. Yes, for WINDOWS mobile. And as I pointed out the performance requirements are much lower for windows anyway. On top of that it still eats away battery life and devices have trouble keeping up with it. As flash will loop constantly (by default) it keeps the cpu busy (among other things) which in turn makes that the device cannot sleep == shorter battery lifetime. And due to its closed nature nothing much can be done about it. It also does not change the fact that the OpenMoko is not a broadband device (yet), so downloading big flash files is not really helpful. Unless you work for Adobe you are part of the flash user community... How stupid. I am a developer. Meaning I write code in actionscript and flex. I am a part of the developer community because I have actively contributed to flash *developer* communities for the last 4 years. I do not consider myself a flash user any more than I consider myself a C++ user. I am a flash developer and a C++ developer, and I am part of the community of flash developers who talk every day about the tools (both open and closed source) and help each other solving technical and development issues. Perhaps this concept is foreign to you. I am a developer and mostly use C... This does not mean I develop C, so I am not part of the C developer community. Same applies to you. You develop WITH flash (actionscript and whatever). It is completely different from developing flash. Developing with != development of. It is true that flash has some nice features, however using something that is open and standardized has a lot more possibilities. Lots of things that can be done with flash could also be done with SVG etc... Many more things *cant* be done with SVG that can be done with flash. actionscript, video, audio, and incredible tools are all things that SVG cant compete with from a capability or productivity perspective. Well that is true, and I also admitted that earlier. However SVG is a W3C standard (which sadly is not completely implemented yet) while flash is not. And there are lots of better alternatives for audio and video. As I pointed out there are also valid technical reasons like performance and battery life. Also licensing, access to the source code for optimisations and patents are an issue. Its clear you know nothing about flash, which in its current mobile version is implemented on 200 million devices currently world wide. Because lots of devices have shipped with Java that makes it mobile? I guess you never experienced the slowness caused by Java on restricted devices. And as you stated earlier it is a handicapped version of flash. Which in todays world is next to useless seen the huge amounts of flash 8 and 9 content. So we will need to features and this does not change anything about flash being a resource hog especially on mobile devices. The proof for flash slowness on Linux platforms is there. Just look at the Nokia 770 and n800 which are a lot more powerful than the OpenMoko. But the religion about open licenses is in my view counterproductive since there is no open platform that comes anywhere near flash. Gnash is the closest and it is in the stone age. So optimizing something so old and out of date is hardly a good trade off. Gnash starts to support
Re: Back from FOSDEM
Hello, On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 09:18 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Sadly, I was one of those who were a little late to go to the room and did not find a place inside anymore :( Sean, Mickey, is there any chance to get the slides of your presentation or did someone even do a Video? As FOSDEM embedded room co-ordinator I will try to get it published ASAP once I get it from Sean. I will also post a message here when it happens as people seem interested. Also I would like to thank Sean and Mickey again for the overwhelming success. Please remember to post the links to the crowd pictures as Sean requested. Cheers, Philippe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
