Re: Openmoko GTA06
04/12/14 01:41 -ում, Michael Spacefalcon-ը գրել է: Joerg R. and others on this list have already explained quite well the pointlessness of those IMEI changes when it comes to privacy. If you mean this call numbers that are getting called by 0.5mio users per day). Simply compare who called number A during last year, and who also called number B during last year already reduces number of individuals to max 10. Then check which of those 10 individuals doesn't use her/his old IMEI anymore and here you are: old IMEI linked to new fake IMEI. With only 2 calls done from your new SIM and IMEI to your wife and your mother (or any other arbitrary two normal phone numbers you called before) then this doesn't relate to me, if I don't use calls/sms and I use only Internet. Then they need to filter who uses same Internet services as me. This case it's much harder to make sure that me is me, right? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
On Sun 13 April 2014 15:26:34 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: Then they need to filter who uses same Internet services as me. This case it's much harder to make sure that me is me, right? Nope, since your internet traffic is a way better richer fingerprint of you than the numbers you could call (or don't, according to your planned use) Logging in on a single forum or webmail-service or polling your mail via POP3 or registering with a VoIP registrar already suffices. Heck even a more or less arbitrary cookie left in your browser suffices. And as already explained a IMEI popping up out of nowhere is *always* highly suspicious and will usually already suffice to put you into the group of those 20 subjects that currently frequently use fake changing IMEIs. For the rest a rough geolocation will do to identify you as subject #8 of those 20 subjects. It's like you running the streets wearing a gorilla mask, and then changing your gorilla mask to a pig mask and then 100m further you swap that for a donkey mask. *Everybody* will look at you and there's not much doubt who you are, despite you never showing your real face. OOOH, I almost forgot: tell me which internet service you may use without a SIM you paid for. They will probably die from laughing about you when you constantly swap your IMEI without constantly swapping your SIM *and your geolocation* exactly same time. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
04/13/14 03:50 -ում, joerg Reisenweber-ը գրել է: On Sun 13 April 2014 15:26:34 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: Then they need to filter who uses same Internet services as me. This case it's much harder to make sure that me is me, right? Nope, since your internet traffic is a way better richer fingerprint of you than the numbers you could call (or don't, according to your planned use) Logging in on a single forum or webmail-service or polling your mail via POP3 or registering with a VoIP registrar already suffices. Heck even a more or less arbitrary cookie left in your browser suffices. And as already explained a IMEI popping up out of nowhere is *always* highly suspicious and will usually already suffice to put you into the group of those 20 subjects that currently frequently use fake changing IMEIs. For the rest a rough geolocation will do to identify you as subject #8 of those 20 subjects. It's like you running the streets wearing a gorilla mask, and then changing your gorilla mask to a pig mask and then 100m further you swap that for a donkey mask. *Everybody* will look at you and there's not much doubt who you are, despite you never showing your real face. OOOH, I almost forgot: tell me which internet service you may use without a SIM you paid for. They will probably die from laughing about you when you constantly swap your IMEI without constantly swapping your SIM *and your geolocation* exactly same time. /j Okay, I agree with all you written. No doubt, when doing IMEI change, many details should be considered. And no doubt, if mail/chat etc service providers cooperate with your local intelligence agency, then you are even more vulnerable. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
04/11/14 03:08 -ում, Michael Spacefalcon-ը գրել է: I don't know how things stand in your part of the world, but here in USA the carriers only want to sell mobile data services while giving voice and SMS away for free - so it is the direct opposite of what you are picturing: old-fashioned voice calls and SMS are free here, whereas Internet packet data costs $$$. Yes, probably because they have this call and sms possibility. But I am quite sure, in your part of the world they must have possibility to get a plan, where calls and texts are prohibited, but Internet is unlimited, and just pay for it monthly fee. Then, if their friends know how to use Internet for calls and texts they can refuse from using phones as devices, like washing machines, designed for specific tasks, in this case - calls via carriers, and I see carriers gradually would become just an ISP's, not less and not more. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
need to add that the other thing we need, apart from encrypted calls, via gsm, as in your case, or over tcp/ip, as in my case, we need, yes, possibility to change IMEI's and use anonymous SIM cards, in order to prevent permanent tracking. 04/11/14 10:37 -ում, Norayr Chilingarian-ը գրել է: 04/11/14 03:08 -ում, Michael Spacefalcon-ը գրել է: I don't know how things stand in your part of the world, but here in USA the carriers only want to sell mobile data services while giving voice and SMS away for free - so it is the direct opposite of what you are picturing: old-fashioned voice calls and SMS are free here, whereas Internet packet data costs $$$. Yes, probably because they have this call and sms possibility. But I am quite sure, in your part of the world they must have possibility to get a plan, where calls and texts are prohibited, but Internet is unlimited, and just pay for it monthly fee. Then, if their friends know how to use Internet for calls and texts they can refuse from using phones as devices, like washing machines, designed for specific tasks, in this case - calls via carriers, and I see carriers gradually would become just an ISP's, not less and not more. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Norayr Chilingarian nor...@arnet.am wrote: Yes, probably because they have this call and sms possibility. Of course they (the carriers) provide call and SMS capabilities, because I, their customer, want these capabilities, and would not be their customer if they didn't provide such! But I am quite sure, in your part of the world they must have possibility to get a plan, where calls and texts are prohibited, Of course you can block whatever you don't like. But giving up these services would not save you any money, because they are already *given away for free*, for zero extra cost. but Internet is unlimited, and just pay for it monthly fee. Yes, the carrier I use (310260) offers unlimited Internet too. But unlimited voice SMS is cheaper, and far more useful to me. Then, if their friends know how to use Internet for calls and texts No thanks, I want no part of that. The quality of a voice connection over bufferbloated mobile data networks is shit (latency in seconds) - I am much, much happier with traditional circuit-switched phone calls. they can refuse from using phones as devices, I don't have much more to say to you except that we shall fight on opposite sides. I *like* using a traditional phone for traditional phone calls, and I will never give it up. like washing machines, You refuse to use a washing machine? Do you wash your clothes by hand in a pond or a river? Where I live, none of the nearby natural bodies of water is clean enough for me to consider washing my clothes there, so I like using a washing machine. designed for specific tasks, in this case - calls via carriers, Yes, and I take great pride in my work to design and build a device that does just one thing: make voice phone calls via those carriers, exactly the thing you are against. and I see carriers gradually would become just an ISP's, not less and not more. Yes, but they still provide the old-fashioned circuit-switched services as well, and if/when they cease to provide these services, I will cease being their customer, and will instead become my own carrier - set up my own GSM network that provides only old-fashioned phone calls and nothing else, *no* data services whatsoever, except for CSD. need to add that the other thing we need, apart from encrypted calls, via gsm, as in your case, or over tcp/ip, as in my case, we need, yes, possibility to change IMEI's Joerg R. and others on this list have already explained quite well the pointlessness of those IMEI changes when it comes to privacy. There is only one good reason to change one's IMEI: if some operator X blocks your legitimate IMEI (or an entire range, like all known freeable phones), and you really need to connect to that network, you can set your IMEI to something that network will accept. and use anonymous SIM cards, The anonymity or non-anonymity of a SIM card (i.e., whether or not you have to show a govt-issued ID when buying or activating your SIM) is a social problem, not one that can be solved by technical means. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Michael, just would like to mention my needs, and unfortunately I cannot satisfy them with your project. I would even tell, I don't have a need for voice communications. But if I were, I would use something over Internet, like Jabber. So I don't need a phone, but a mobile computer, which may benefit from having a microphone and speaker. Also, routing voice traffic through the Intrenet is a way to not be obliged to pay to carrier per minute or per text message. I think that carriers earn too much money just because not all the people still used to Internet. I prefer getting a data plan and pay monthly, while using encrypted communications for mail and chat. So I use gprs only in order to have Internet. Not to call or receive regular calls. I believe, if we get Internet, then we can manage the rest without carriers. 04/02/14 07:00 -ում, Michael Spacefalcon-ը գրել է: Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone This part is in fact true. with the following specs: But the specs you have in mind are wrong. * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) Nope, it's an ARM7TDMI @ 52 MHz, chip made by TI, codename Calypso, from TI's Greek mythology series. * 4GB RAM Don't need that much; 8 MiB of pSRAM (combined with NOR flash as part of the S71PL129NC0 MCP by Spansion) is way more than enough for a good phone. (For comparison, the Motorola C139 I'm currently playing with makes do just fine with only 512 KiB.) * 128 GB eMMC Again, unnecessary complexity and bloat. Mine will have 16 MiB of NOR flash instead: S71PL129NC0 provides two flash banks of 8 MiB each; one will be for the firmware (execute in place), the other for user data storage. (For comparison, the user data flash partition on the C139 is only 320 KiB.) * LTE with free and open baseband GSM, not LTE - much better for plain old voice phone calls, which is what a *phone* is for. But the free and open part is absolutely correct! * 5 inch full HD display Unnecessary for a phone. I plan on using a 128x160 pixel 1.77 color LCD (TFT), which is quite luxurious compared to Mot C139/V66/etc. * 100g That sounds about right. * 4000 mAh battery Not sure if I can get a battery with such capacity, but because I'm using TI's source code with proper power management (unlike OsmocomBB), even a 1000 mAh battery can last a good while. * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) It is beyond me why would anyone in his or her right mind want to run such complex, bloated and unreliable software on a *phone*, a device whose primary purpose is to provide ultra-reliable voice communication when all else fails, including emergency communication for potentially life-threatening situations. * shall cost less than Nexus 5 The very limited number of units I will physically produce myself will probably have a very steep price tag, but unlike you I'm going to put the gerber files, BOM and everything else on ftp.ifctf.org, so any community member will be able to produce it herself at whatever price her chosen PCB fab + parts suppliers + assembly house + RF calibration lab charge. Looks like some dream machine :) You and I have different dreams. Oh, and if someone were to build your April Fool's device for real, it should NOT be called GTA-anything, because it is not GSM-TI-AGPS. I am not calling my Free Dumb Phone GTAxx either - while the 'G' and 'T' parts are true for my design, the 'A' part is not. I do like the 3 letters + 2 digits model naming scheme, but my letters won't be GTA. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Norayr Chilingarian nor...@arnet.am wrote: just would like to mention my needs, and unfortunately I cannot satisfy them with your project. [...] So I don't need a phone, but a mobile computer [...] Then my project is not for you. It is for those who specifically want a plain old cellphone (dumbphone) and not a mobile computer. I already have a mobile computer which I'm reasonably happy with - it's a Lenovo X200 ultraportable laptop, running Slackware. But when it comes to my cellphone, whether I use my old Mot V66 (unknown chipset) or the Calypso-based C139 or Pirelli DP-L10, I am currently limited to running Mot's or Pirelli's original proprietary firmware sans source, with no ability to fix bugs or to tweak the UI design to my taste. I am very unhappy with this status quo, hence I am working to fix it in a way that is within my ability: by reconstructing TI's standard fw for modems and dumbphones from pieces (Leonardo+LoCosto+misc) and making it run on the Calypso-based GSM devices I have available. The related project of building a new Calypso-based dumbphone is primarily in response to the exhaustion of the surplus supply of ready-made devices. If there were an infinite supply of Pirelli DP-L10s with full schematics and with docs for that darned SPCA552E chip, or of Mot C139s with unlocked bootloaders, there would be little need to build new hw. But the Pirellis are no longer available, and even the stash I already have is of limited usefulness because this hw is cripped by the lack of schematics and by those extra chips w/o docs. Mot C139s are still somewhat readily available, but they are crippled by the boot ROM being disabled at the board level, so we have to rely on the original fw's bootloader instead. If you buy a C139 on ebay, it will be a gamble whether it arrives with a firmware version that features an unlocked bootloader, or one which allows no known way of loading our own code into the device. Hence I plan on getting FreeCalypso fw running on a C139 and/or a Pirelli as a proof of concept, then switching my attention to the design of a new Calypso dumbphone free of Mot/Pirelli's design flaws. Current status of the project: I've got the tool I wrote that parses TI's COFF objects and produces disassembly listings which take advantage of the symbolic information present in these objects (like objdump from binutils, but more specifically taylored to TI's COFF objects made by the TMS470 toolchain), and I am now working on integrating GPF into my gcc-built FreeCalypso fw. After GPF we'll have L1, and then the bulk of the GSM protocol stack, yay! Also, routing voice traffic through the Intrenet is a way to not be obliged to pay to carrier per minute or per text message. So you would rather pay those same carriers per kilobyte instead? I don't know how things stand in your part of the world, but here in USA the carriers only want to sell mobile data services while giving voice and SMS away for free - so it is the direct opposite of what you are picturing: old-fashioned voice calls and SMS are free here, whereas Internet packet data costs $$$. I think that carriers earn too much money just because not all the people still used to Internet. But it's the other way around - those mobile Internet users are the ones feeding the carriers' revenue stream, while outlaws like me who eschew all that packet data crap and use old-fashioned circuit-switched GSM services (yay CSD!) essentially get a free ride on that carrier! I believe, if we get Internet, then we can manage the rest without carriers. But why?? I *like* getting a free ride on my GSM carrier at the expense of all those fools whose sky-high mobile Internet bills pay for the upkeep of the infrastructure. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
April Fool :) On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.orgwrote: Hi all, I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone with the following specs: * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) * 4GB RAM * 128 GB eMMC * LTE with free and open baseband * 5 inch full HD display * 100g * 4000 mAh battery * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) * shall cost less than Nexus 5 Looks like some dream machine :) Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details? -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
On 2014-04-01 10:26, shamsul hassan wrote: April Fool :) On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: Hi all, I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone with the following specs: * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) * 4GB RAM * 128 GB eMMC * LTE with free and open baseband * 5 inch full HD display * 100g * 4000 mAh battery * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) * shall cost less than Nexus 5 Looks like some dream machine :) Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details? Nice one. I was fooled. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Am 01.04.2014 um 11:53 schrieb Neil Jerram: On 2014-04-01 10:26, shamsul hassan wrote: April Fool :) On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: Hi all, I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone with the following specs: * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) * 4GB RAM * 128 GB eMMC * LTE with free and open baseband * 5 inch full HD display * 100g * 4000 mAh battery * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) * shall cost less than Nexus 5 Looks like some dream machine :) Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details? Nice one. I was fooled. Obviously me too... Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
+1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Am 01.04.2014 um 12:07 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com: Am 01.04.2014 um 11:53 schrieb Neil Jerram: On 2014-04-01 10:26, shamsul hassan wrote: April Fool :) On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: Hi all, I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone with the following specs: * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) * 4GB RAM * 128 GB eMMC * LTE with free and open baseband * 5 inch full HD display * 100g * 4000 mAh battery * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) * shall cost less than Nexus 5 Looks like some dream machine :) Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details? Nice one. I was fooled. Obviously me too... :D Best one!!! But I was fooled too. Christoph B. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone This part is in fact true. with the following specs: But the specs you have in mind are wrong. * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) Nope, it's an ARM7TDMI @ 52 MHz, chip made by TI, codename Calypso, from TI's Greek mythology series. * 4GB RAM Don't need that much; 8 MiB of pSRAM (combined with NOR flash as part of the S71PL129NC0 MCP by Spansion) is way more than enough for a good phone. (For comparison, the Motorola C139 I'm currently playing with makes do just fine with only 512 KiB.) * 128 GB eMMC Again, unnecessary complexity and bloat. Mine will have 16 MiB of NOR flash instead: S71PL129NC0 provides two flash banks of 8 MiB each; one will be for the firmware (execute in place), the other for user data storage. (For comparison, the user data flash partition on the C139 is only 320 KiB.) * LTE with free and open baseband GSM, not LTE - much better for plain old voice phone calls, which is what a *phone* is for. But the free and open part is absolutely correct! * 5 inch full HD display Unnecessary for a phone. I plan on using a 128x160 pixel 1.77 color LCD (TFT), which is quite luxurious compared to Mot C139/V66/etc. * 100g That sounds about right. * 4000 mAh battery Not sure if I can get a battery with such capacity, but because I'm using TI's source code with proper power management (unlike OsmocomBB), even a 1000 mAh battery can last a good while. * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...) It is beyond me why would anyone in his or her right mind want to run such complex, bloated and unreliable software on a *phone*, a device whose primary purpose is to provide ultra-reliable voice communication when all else fails, including emergency communication for potentially life-threatening situations. * shall cost less than Nexus 5 The very limited number of units I will physically produce myself will probably have a very steep price tag, but unlike you I'm going to put the gerber files, BOM and everything else on ftp.ifctf.org, so any community member will be able to produce it herself at whatever price her chosen PCB fab + parts suppliers + assembly house + RF calibration lab charge. Looks like some dream machine :) You and I have different dreams. Oh, and if someone were to build your April Fool's device for real, it should NOT be called GTA-anything, because it is not GSM-TI-AGPS. I am not calling my Free Dumb Phone GTAxx either - while the 'G' and 'T' parts are true for my design, the 'A' part is not. I do like the 3 letters + 2 digits model naming scheme, but my letters won't be GTA. VLR, SF ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko GTA06
Am 02.04.2014 um 05:00 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon: Oh, and if someone were to build your April Fool's device for real, it should NOT be called GTA-anything, because it is not GSM-TI-AGPS. I The only reference to this secret naming convention is: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/045297.html GTA stood for: Gsm;Ti;Agps This means it [b]stood[/b] for something. So it now can stand for anything :) So GTA06 is Good Tale in April number 06 :) -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
