Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
> a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ? > b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open > phone ? > c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ? > d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to > discourage >the effort ? d) And Mickey is right :-) Wolfgang On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 10:46:47AM +0100, ri...@happyleptic.org wrote: > You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have > open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close > together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance, > and see what part of the phone hardware still works. > > So what should we do ? > > a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ? > b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open > phone ? > c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ? > d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to > discourage >the effort ? > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Am Samstag, den 27.02.2010, 10:46 +0100 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org: > You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have > open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close > together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance, > and see what part of the phone hardware still works. > > So what should we do ? > > a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ? > b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open > phone ? > c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ? > d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to > discourage >the effort ? a), b) and d) can be parallized; it's different tasks anyways. FSO will be ready for any whatever comes out of a), b), and d) :) Cheers, -- :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
You can't just separate software from hardware. The fact is you can't have open software without hardware specs, so open soft and open hard comes close together. Go try to rebuild a kernel on a nokia "open" phone for instance, and see what part of the phone hardware still works. So what should we do ? a) crack open closed phones by reverse engeneering ? b) wait for a manufacturer to compromise its pot of gold by producing an open phone ? c) put our head in a bag and pretend an iphone or an android is open enough ? d) aim at building one collectively despite all the unbelievers trying to discourage the effort ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:59:18 -0600 Eric Olson said: > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita > > said: > > ... > > > > i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a > > pot of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots > > of gold already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the > > software side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with > > your idea that you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it > > without anything being produced for a vry long time (read - > > never) unless you find a pot of gold. it's the hw side that has these > > costs that unlike software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending > > their time on evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold > > and it can happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - > > and produce hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell > > about how that pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - > > ever. you'll just cover your tv with spittle. :) > > > > > > Doom and gloom :) > > I still like the idea of a modular 3g modem in your phone. Design your > next openmoko/qi/openwhatever linux pda and leave in a usb port and a > cavity for the smallest 3G usb stick. Maybe place it on the end of the > phone and reduce the case size later. It's not perfect, but it allows > replacement of the cell module which gives you lots of flexibility. > Similar things already happen -- QI's Ben gets wifi for free with an SD > card slot. It just became much more useful. This is just an example > that you don't need a pot of gold for everything. > > These solutions aren't for everyone, and neither is GNU/Linux on the > desktop, but for some it will be the preferred choice. > > Open hardware is still fairly new -- and you _can_ make progress without > pots of gold. You won't be able to get everything, but you might get > more (look at GNU/Linux's progress, although I know big companies > support some of its development now). Thank you to gta02-core, QI, and > other people for working on open hardware. as ken young said - 95% of your gnu/linux market just went away if the above is your solution. 95% of already a small market. they are interested in a real production-level device that is in the same ballpark as everyone else in price,, design and features... BUT that runs linux (not android - android is not linux and very far from it). and that linux needs to be open enough to not get in the way - if u cant recompile a kernel or cant fix a bug .. then thats bad. the people who demand open all the way to the bottom including hw schematics are tiny subset (the 5%) and suddenly your niche market just got a hell of a lot more niche - and thats going to kill most models. but if thats what you like - good luck and enjoy. you will have a very limited selection of devices - if any and be always fighting against the grain. your costs will be high. choice low. :( but.. to each their own. the vast majority of those interested in om were interested in the above - and that included me. the rest (open hw) is just an added "ooh nice" but not a necessity. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita > said: > ... > > i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a pot > of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots of > gold > already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the software > side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with your idea > that > you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it without anything > being produced for a vry long time (read - never) unless you > find a pot of gold. it's the hw side that has these costs that unlike > software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending their time on > evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold and it can > happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - and produce > hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell about how that > pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - ever. you'll just > cover > your tv with spittle. :) > > Doom and gloom :) I still like the idea of a modular 3g modem in your phone. Design your next openmoko/qi/openwhatever linux pda and leave in a usb port and a cavity for the smallest 3G usb stick. Maybe place it on the end of the phone and reduce the case size later. It's not perfect, but it allows replacement of the cell module which gives you lots of flexibility. Similar things already happen -- QI's Ben gets wifi for free with an SD card slot. It just became much more useful. This is just an example that you don't need a pot of gold for everything. These solutions aren't for everyone, and neither is GNU/Linux on the desktop, but for some it will be the preferred choice. Open hardware is still fairly new -- and you _can_ make progress without pots of gold. You won't be able to get everything, but you might get more (look at GNU/Linux's progress, although I know big companies support some of its development now). Thank you to gta02-core, QI, and other people for working on open hardware. Eric ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:28:18 -0500 (EST) Ken Young said: > Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > > > If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm > > sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. > > The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell, > some people will still be using them in 10+ years. Face it, we are > now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics. We play with > phones, because we enjoy playing with phones. There is no viable > business model here. None. > > Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone > manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future. When the > Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available. > The competition was relatively weak back then. And still Openomoko > was not able to make a go of it. Perhaps better management would > have made a difference. But that doesn't matter now. If you go > to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion. oh indeed. the community has dwindled to like 5% of what it was - as the 95% (numbers out of arse again) are not as fanatical about having schemtics, cad designs and every single thing open - they want mostly open - open enough so closed doesnt get in the way of making apps and doing development - modifying even the base system (to a reasonable extent). thats what the vast majority are happy with. closed OpenGL-ES drivers become an issue to them - as they sometimes crash or dont work and there is little hope of debugging your app as its linking to a closed blob. they care about the practicalities of open source. i'm in that boat myself. :) > The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have > moved on. They were a significant part of the Openmoko community, > and they want a linux phone that works. If a gta03 were > to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than > the gta02 did. And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko > Inc in the phone business. The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest > only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in > Openmoko phones. > > As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going > to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are > collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible. The other well ok - you're harsher... i just wanted to inject reality into it - that it wont happen without a lot of money - or with hyper-expensive hardware that is probably well behind the existing "out there" mass market products > possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports. It's hard to > imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre > will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM > hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer > many things. So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll > end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy > hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner. Hooray! ahahhaha :) tho palm pre would be relatively easy - it's openembedded. its omap3 where most of it is documented and open (excluding 3d unit). but... i get your point :) > Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew* > that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd > design phones around it. I disagree. There is very little incentive > for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons > for them not to. From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone > that the user has full control of is a nightmare. If something > like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would > be the perfect platform for malware. Users would be bricking their > phones right and left. Calls to service centers would go way up. > Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks. well that's a bit extreme - as technically android and the nexus one or adp1 are pretty much this too. but you are right - this is a big fear inside companies - you can rave on about open and benefits all you like - they are scared of this kind of scenario and the bad publicity that comes along with it. you need to loll them in gently one little thing at a time so they gain confidence. let them get a little more open, see that it has no big bad side effects - of anything positive ones, then the next small little thing. tryin big-bang to do everything from hw to sw open is going to net you no love from an existing maker. doing your own i dont see as viable - so you need to take a new strategy. as i've explained already. :) > The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical > accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted > a machine they could program. There was no threat of external malware > in the early 1980s. The constant fight against PC malware is the price > we now pay for that heritage. Most PC users would be better off with > a machine that
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:41:24 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita said: > Hello, > > --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > > Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler > > (The Rasterman) escreveu: > > > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close > [snip] > > > compromises. but you can get some of it at least. > > > > Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people > > working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much > > nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start > > *then* instead of now :) > > > > The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in > > developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and > > I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely > > gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a > > smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). > > > > As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but > > complementing. > > You are right and that is my point. > > The other bits around about big companies with money > doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original > thread mail was intended to talk about community > projects which learn the proper software/hardware > development processes needed for an open mobile phone, > no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of > the market and which is that product. > > Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain > the idea very well. i'm getting at the fact that the hw side is stuck - it wont work without a pot of gold. the hw side that WORKS are the big companies with lots of pots of gold already. if you want to make something work - work with them on the software side... but you are free to ignore this advice and continue with your idea that you "need to work on the process" as you'll be working on it without anything being produced for a vry long time (read - never) unless you find a pot of gold. it's the hw side that has these costs that unlike software, can't be replaced by someone simply spending their time on evenings/weekends. it costs real money - get your pot of gold and it can happen, or ork with those who already have the pots of gold - and produce hardware. until then you're an armchair sportsman. you can yell about how that pass was bad or whatever... you won't affect the game - ever. you'll just cover your tv with spittle. :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:18:31 +0530 rakshat hooja said: > > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most > > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos > > device > > for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can > > make use of all that data... > > > > Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a > celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line > the "modern" internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't > :). Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking, > server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work. probably because you're a nerd and don't use what regular people do - regular peolpe use sites covered in flash - and with a 2ghz celeron and 2gb of ram... things bog down... and i hear the whingeing all the time. i keep saying "close firefox - dont have 12 tabs open each with 5 flash ads and so on" but that doesnt change. behavior doesnt change - there is an insistence that no matter what they do - things work properly. and it gets worse month after month. yes - it's linux. people do more and want more. and the internet requires more. i 100% disagree that the itnernet of 1997 uses the same browser and local resources of the internet 2010 for the vast majority of people. it squarely does not. and every year those resources needed goes up. > Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have > had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the > latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these > upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that > they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work. > > Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight > the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they > can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest > hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz > samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the > mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster > is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones). but at vga.. it's pushing it. and as more stuff becomes js and ajax.. html5 - this wil change. as you dont have flash - you havent noticed. add flash in and you'll think otherwise. and dont go blaming flash - flash uses those resoruces because of the richer things it does and people like and WANT those. and as js +html5/ajax etc. do more of what flash has been doing you will see the same resource issues in "regular browsers". > I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how > this can be worked around for a fully open phone. > > Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 > > http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap aaah roadmaps. how many i have seen and how many of them are filled with complete bunk - by this i mean there is little to no REALITY behind them - they are wishlists, not firm schedules that can be done. i do hope qi manages to get there - i wish wolfgan all the best in getting there - but i know how hard it really is - he does too. it's monumentally difficult. and its difficult even if you have a pot of gold. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:04:26 -0500 "Gay, John (GE Infra, Energy, Non-GE)" said: > As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I > know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2 > from Gizmo for you? > > http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/ > > Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to > actually be available for a price, though a rather high one. > > I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather > interesting. i think it's interesting. it's about the closest you can come to the "guys with a pot of gold" and some hw. but - comparing it to a normal smartphone is hard. it'd rough/ its bulky - very bulky. it's pretty old technology - except for the cpu *gumstix) unit. the 3g unit seems decent. no idea of reception etc. that price of 586 eur ($793 - lets say $800) (plus shipping etc.) is also double the freerunner. and people bitched on how expensive it was (it wasn't really they are just used to subsidised prices). now it's unclear if they include the gumstix daughterboards or not as its the same price. i think you need to buy them in addition (add $219 or $149 + shipping for these from gumstix (the $219 will approximate a phone like the pre/n900 etc. as you get bt, wifi 3d and dsp - the $149 earth has no wifi, bt, dsp or 3d - so you lose all of them for the drop in price). so... $800 + $220 + 2 lots of shipping (lets say $20 shipping for each - really generous as it can be a LOT more (or a little less))... so... $800 + $220 + $20 + $20 - $1060. so.. thats your price for a rough phone - yes. it's pretty open. yes - it's a tinkerers dream. but its more than 2x the price of an n900 - and the n900 is even a little smaller (same thickness) and comes with hw keyboard and better resolution screen, mountains more onboard flash (32m) as well as the micro-sd slot. so as such just comparing the devices - the n900 is 50% of the price and a better unit - but it's not open. and the n900 is one of the bulkiest things around in recent times. also you get no warranty :) but thats the price of tinkerability. so - flow - interesting. rather cool actually, but pretty rough and ugly, expensive, troublesome (need to put it together yourself). also it's android - so you'll need to port shr/debian/whatever to it (well get it up) if you dont want android (if all you want is android theres lots more nicer devices that are cheaper - but you may be a "i must have open hardware" guy so who knows). so all in all it's as close as you get if you must have open hw you can swizzle - but you pay a hefty premium for it. it's also bulky and rather rough (looks-wise). i don't think i'd pay for it. but thats my choice. it simply doesnt present good value compared to the hardware that's there. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:31:48 +0800 William Kenworthy said: > > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most > > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos > > device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your > > phone can make use of all that data... > > > Also dont forget "progress" - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is > static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and > expanding. The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is > available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year. > Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a > 3G phone at least had a connection at many places. > > GSM obsolete here :( just wait until the LTE (or whatever comes after 3.5g) craze comes. gsm likely will start being dismantled - i know if i travel to korea or japan i NEED a 3g phone. 2g just doesnt work as they have no gsm/gprs etc. networks at all - only 3g. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 02:10 +1100, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: > > > -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] > > > a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and > > > thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. > > > > I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of > > 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying > > to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all > > the people that actually _use_ these services. > > internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in > japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking > up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant > messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty > moot > - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between > 2g > and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise > - > 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data > in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - > 2g > data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). > > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos > device > for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can > make use of all that data... > Also dont forget "progress" - here in Western Australia GSM coverage is static and may even be shrinking, where 3G is already far greater and expanding. The freerunner is a phone only as long as a network is available to connect to - as I found out when on holiday last year. Think driving hundreds of kilometers with no connection at all, where a 3G phone at least had a connection at many places. GSM obsolete here :( BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Hello, --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler > (The Rasterman) escreveu: > > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close [snip] > > compromises. but you can get some of it at least. > > Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people > working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much > nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start > *then* instead of now :) > > The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in > developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and > I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely > gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a > smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). > > As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but > complementing. You are right and that is my point. The other bits around about big companies with money doing propietary stuff is off topic; since the original thread mail was intended to talk about community projects which learn the proper software/hardware development processes needed for an open mobile phone, no about who is going to do a product for the 95% of the market and which is that product. Sorry for my english guys, maybe I did not explain the idea very well. Rafael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
rakshat hooja escribió: > > Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 > > http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap > > So we continue to dream :) > It says 2011 :) Cheers! Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
> internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and > in > japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for > looking > up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant > messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty > moot > - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference > between 2g > and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention > cost-wise - > 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for > data > in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only > - 2g > data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). > > but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most > people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos > device > for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can > make use of all that data... > Lets take the desktop analogy further I use a 2004 Tosiba laptop with a celeron processor (ubuntu ) as my main laptop still. 6 years down the line the "modern" internet runs perfectly on it (modern games pretty much don't :). Firefox renders pretty much everything, Java works, maps, banking, server hosted apps, social networking sites; everything really does work. Now I have two employees in my 3 people company and both my employees have had their laptops upgraded (at my cost). One has a fancy HP with one of the latest intel processors and the other a macbook. Did they really need these upgardes to use the modern evolving web? No. But they definitely felt that they needed the latest hardware to be productive in their work. Why am i mentioning all these anecdotes. Because I feel that they highlight the fact that people will always want the latest and fanciest hardware they can afford but at the sametime its just BS to say you need the latest hardware to run the evolving internet. Snapdragon is cool but the 233 MHz samsung in the Neo 1973 is still more than capable of handling anything the mobile internet has thrown up till now (if designed properly - like raster is right about the qvga screen in the OM phones). I do buy the 3G module and lisense cost issues and till date I don't see how this can be worked around for a fully open phone. Anyway Qi's roadmap does say Open Phone in 2012 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Roadmap So we continue to dream :) Rakshat > > -- > - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm > sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. The truth is that even though the Freerunner is buggy as hell, some people will still be using them in 10+ years. Face it, we are now in the same boat as the Apple Newton fanatics. We play with phones, because we enjoy playing with phones. There is no viable business model here. None. Openmoko Inc had a far better shot at success than any open phone manufacturer will have again for the foreseeable future. When the Neo 1973 came out, there were no mass-market linux phones available. The competition was relatively weak back then. And still Openomoko was not able to make a go of it. Perhaps better management would have made a difference. But that doesn't matter now. If you go to the maemo IRC channel these days, it's like an Openmoko reunion. The people who want to make applications for a linux phone have moved on. They were a significant part of the Openmoko community, and they want a linux phone that works. If a gta03 were to go on sale tomorrow, I believe it would sell more poorly than the gta02 did. And the gta02 didn't sell enough units to keep Openmoko Inc in the phone business. The gta02-core and gta03 are of interest only to a proper subset of the people who were originally interested in Openmoko phones. As Raster has pointed out, the idea that a group of hobbyists is going to make a viable phone in their spare time, using parts which are collecting dust in Sean's closet, is risible. The other possible future for OM software is anti-vendor ports. It's hard to imagine that the OM software running on something like the Palm Pre will work more smoothly than the same software running on the OM hardware, for which the developers did not have to reverse engineer many things. So if the anti-vendor ports are successful, we'll end up being able to turn something like the Palm Pre into a buggy hobbyist toy like the FreeRunner. Hooray! Some in the OM community seem to suggest that if vendors *just knew* that they could have the wonderful SHR software for free, they'd design phones around it. I disagree. There is very little incentive for vendors and telecoms to support open systems, and plenty of reasons for them not to. From a vendor's point of view, selling a phone that the user has full control of is a nightmare. If something like the SHR stack ever actually entered widespread use, it would be the perfect platform for malware. Users would be bricking their phones right and left. Calls to service centers would go way up. Phone networks would be subject to DOS attacks. The only reason that PCs are general purpose computers is a historical accident - PCs grew out of the hobbyist market, and hobbyists wanted a machine they could program. There was no threat of external malware in the early 1980s. The constant fight against PC malware is the price we now pay for that heritage. Most PC users would be better off with a machine that came with a web browser, a few tools for photo manipulation and multimedia, and which could not have any additional software installed. With smart phones, the industry has a chance to replay history. They can make the platform closed, and largely prevent the whole malware nightmare. They can reduce the universe of software configurations they have to support. It makes sense for them to do that. Sad as it is for us, the most sensible approach for phone makers is probably Apple's. I enjoy playing with my Freerunners, and my Neo 1973. Others do too. But be honest with yourself - these phones are a dead end. At this point we are like the nut-cases who want to run linux on their iPods. Ken ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
As rasterman knows quite a bit more about hardware than most people I know, I'm curious to know his opinion on the Flow G1.5 and up-coming G2 from Gizmo for you? http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/ Sounds at least as open hardware-wise and Openmoko was and seems to actually be available for a price, though a rather high one. I also find the game platform and general-purpose daughter card rather interesting. Cheers, John Gay ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:49 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: > -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] > > a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and > > thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. > > I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of > 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying > to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all > the people that actually _use_ these services. internet. need i say more. as such its actually used here in australia, and in japan, and korea, and the usa, etc. - people really do use phones for looking up stuff, maps (yes downloading the maps as you go), blogging, instant messaging and email - oh god email. sure - video calls, tv etc. are pretty moot - but the other things definitely use 3g - there is a big difference between 2g and 3g for speed when it comes to loading web pages. not to mention cost-wise - 2g and 3g get priced differently with 3g being much much much cheaper for data in au than 2g generally (cheapest telco for data is 3 and they are 3g only - 2g data rates are just silly. 3g data is cheap). but - u'd need a phone that actually uses such things nicely and still most people dont have one. you'd need an iphone, modern android or palm webos device for this to really work. then it becomes a different game as your phone can make use of all that data... -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:47:35PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] > a phone to make 40k units would be easily double that - if not triple. and > thats 2g only. 3g will bump that up again. I don't know for other countries, but here in France the majority of 3g subscribers never use it. All day long you can see adds on TV trying to sell video calls, TV on phone, etc, yet you could pack in a bus all the people that actually _use_ these services. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Glad I read this. I completely agree, yet I would like to add another thing : Lets consider the whole market for mobile devices. It's composed for one part of the yupee techno addicts that want the latest gadget around, and for the other part by other people that have either no special attraction to technology, or not the budget to buy the latest gadget, or not the desire to confront the latest, buggiest and more complex devices. Like the PC market is composed for one part of the gamers who want the latest chips and can endure painful configuration and frequent crashes, and for the other part by normal people with simple needs who are more than happy with an EEE desktop (for instance). Due to our occupation and jobs we are probably all surrounded by the former kind of person, plus the advertisements everywhere suggest that everyone have or want the latest gadget, but honestly which part of the market looks like a niche ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
* Wolfgang Spraul wrote, Il 25/02/2010 12:54: > There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity! > Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long > they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm > sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. > I agree here, totally. And IMHO openess *should* be different in this aspect: it *must* be detached from a consumerism centered economy. But these products must be really bug free and working very well. Unfortunately it's still not the case of the FreeRunner (hardware side *and* software side). -- Andrea ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:54:35 + Wolfgang Spraul said: > raster, > > > may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to > > "iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. > > and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the > > case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least > > being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps > > drifting further away from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the > > big ballpark have more > > I do think there is a 3rd way. The gigahertz/gigabyte race is not the only > race in town. Let them have it. > A product that just works very well always has a chance. Usability race. Put > people and their real needs and real ability to understand and use products > in the center. Don't give a damn if everybody around you goes from 2GHz to > 3GHz. Again, no hard feelings, let them have it their way. > > But there is room for slow made (but still high-tech) products. Product > cycles that are so long that they allow real feedback to trickle back from > users to creators. What we have now is that most feedback is ignored because > by the time it reaches the creators, they are already 2 generations ahead. > > Plus I have to say - the industry is turning into a produce trash throw-away > trash industry so fast I couldn't even imagine. > Even I gave in now: When I shop for a DVD player, I buy the cheapest. > Absolutely the cheapest. No prisoners taken. > Inevitably, some X months later, I run into the first (officially bought) DVD > with latest-and-greatest DRM tricks on it that won't play. Now I throw away my > player and get a new one (of course cheapest again). > This system works quite well. > But it's insane! > > The phone industry is cranking out 1+ billion phones a year. > Very soon they need to increase the crappiness and "won't fix" features in > their products so they have a chance to sell the billions more already in the > pipeline. > There definitely is another way. Must be. Business opportunity! > Let's see how long people will be using their FreeRunners, and how long > they will be using their N900... If the FreeRunner would be bug free, I'm > sure people would still use them in 10+ years, easily. > > Way to go gta02-core, and way to go osmocom! > Wolfgang aaah - the race to the bottom. indeed. thats one way - but that kind of solves itself - whatever the smartphones used 3-4 years ago now is cheap as chips. also remember - dvds havent changed. its the same requirement as when they came out. phones and pc's are in a different world - well if the phone does more than just make calls. they have to deal with apps.. and worse - the internet. the web. and that evolves and changes every day - needing more and more resources on your "interface to the internude". were it to be like dvd's where the requirements dont change... it'd get awesomely cheap - but luckily for the hw industry.. thats not the case... so they get to sell u faster/bigger/better.. just to keep up with "the internet" how it is now. :) let's see - if things get smaller/faster/more efficient web etc. wise.. this may change - but i dont see that happening any time soon. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
gt; give it some time. :) > > and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up > everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you > wont > sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever. > the general "i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and > does its job" market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast > majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats > where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so > they too can play with it. > > the way to go (imho) is to make that 95% have more openness to it - android > was > a big start - maemeo is also a big positive there - as is moblin.. and now the > "meego". no - not 100% open, but its working its way there. > > if you are going to hanging out and wait for gta02-core to make a p0hone - you > may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to > "iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and > then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for > freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the > same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away > from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more > open in it than to stick to the dminishing distant "pure open" island far from > everything interesting :( > > > Ghislain > > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl > > openmobile.nl > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent > > from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > -- > - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
ove :) > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote: > > > > What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). > > They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't > > know about the funding). > > Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a > > reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of > > the fun). > > > > Ghislain > > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl > > openmobile.nl > > -- > > View this message in context: > > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html > > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 03:10:21 -0800 (PST) ghislain said: > > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain > > said: > > > >> > >> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). > >> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I > >> don't > >> know about the funding). > > > > i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont > > replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority > > of > > people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's > > are > > dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications > > reasons. > > if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot > > smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market > > significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the > > more > > likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products > > is > > already a niche. nanonote is a fair bit simpler than a phone - much less RF, no complex fcc testing (and every body on the planet) to get certification, no modem at all so skipping one of the big problem areas - its very simple. its not a bad little toy - but its a far cry from a phone. ask wolfgang - he's behind nanonote - ex openmoko. he didnt learn from nanonote - he learned from om to make nanonote. why do u think its not a phone? because a phone is way more expensive - and harder. > It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it > and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because > of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination > and your programming skills :) sure - i can do that with my smartq5 too and my other myriad of toys. none of them replace my phone - and making a phone is complex and expensive. > Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I > heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just > give it some time. :) and it *IS* a niche. by open products i mean the ones where you open up everything - source and hardware and the target market DEMANDS open or you wont sell anything. that market will remain niche for a very long time - if ever. the general "i dont care much as long as it has cool apps and makes calls and does its job" market will be 95% (number pulled out of arse - meaning vast majority) of the market. thats that's what the big boys cater to. and thats where all the best hardware is - the kind nerds so dearly want to be open so they too can play with it. the way to go (imho) is to make that 95% have more openness to it - android was a big start - maemeo is also a big positive there - as is moblin.. and now the "meego". no - not 100% open, but its working its way there. if you are going to hanging out and wait for gta02-core to make a p0hone - you may be waiting forever. if it does happen you'll find yourself comparing to "iphone 4g" or "nexus 2" or whatever is now out in the 95% of the market. and then crying why it sucks so much in comparison. that was already the case for freerunner. like it or not there is an expectation of at least being in the same ballpark - and as such the big-boys ballpark keeps drifting further away from the "open" one. i think it's better to make the big ballpark have more open in it than to stick to the dminishing distant "pure open" island far from everything interesting :( > Ghislain > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent > from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Ghislain, > They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't > know about the funding). even that is open :-) (scroll down to second part) http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/developer/2010-February/001918.html > Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a > reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of > the fun). Phone is super hard. I finally agree with rasterman on something and share most of what he said earlier in this thread about the economics of getting an 'open' hardware project going. It's tough. And the phone is the toughest of them all. OpenPandora took 4000 pre-orders and financed it that way, hopefully they will make it, they still have a long way to go, product wise and company wise. For the phone, what do you guys think about the osmocom project by Harald and friends? http://bb.osmocom.org >From what I understand so far, they will continue to hack their way to make a GPL GSM stack work with Calypso RF/DSP chips, and later maybe MTK chips. The RF chips themselves are way out of reach for any of us (to make our own open version), even way harder than the GPL'ed Milkymist SoC I think we will get eventually [1] [2]. So to build a phone around osmocom, we have to reuse MTK RF/DSP chips? Anybody interested in financing it? :-) raster - do you want to pre-order one osmocom phone for 1M USD as you said? You have OpenPandora experience already, this one could only be better. On steroids! What do you think? Wolfgang [1] http://www.milkymist.org [2] http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 02:36:22AM -0800, ghislain wrote: > > What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). > They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't > know about the funding). > Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a > reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of > the fun). > > Ghislain > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)-2 wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain > said: > >> >> What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). >> They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I >> don't >> know about the funding). > > i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont > replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority > of > people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's > are > dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications > reasons. > if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot > smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market > significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the > more > likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products > is > already a niche. > > It was not an example of what you need, it was an example of how they did it and what we can learn of it. Also, it's not 'yet another mini pda', because of it's openness you can use it the way you want, just use your imagination and your programming skills :) Your statement 'open products is already a niche' is the exact statement I heard 15-years ago about open-software. We are just at the beginning, just give it some time. :) Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631828.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:36:22 -0800 (PST) ghislain said: > > What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). > They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't > know about the funding). i dont need yet another mini pda. i have a small army of them - that dont replace the phone junk in my pocket. i - and i would say the vast majority of people, dont want multiple things in their pockets - why do u think pda's are dead? they want 1, and the phone trumped all of it for communications reasons. if you dont have a phone you instantly made your potential market a lot smaller. if it doesnt fit in a pocket easily - you just shrunk your market significantly. the more you move your product into a market niche, the more likely it is to fail due to just not making enough volume. open products is already a niche. > Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a > reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of > the fun). > > Ghislain > http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent > from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:50:36 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: > -[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] > > openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last > > time my money goes to any such group/venture. > > The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by > an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware. > > Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but > as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the > project as a failure. they created a pot of gold by lieing to people and getting them to part with their money. they said it would be shipped by a date (2 or 3 months after you paid). it still has not shipped. i dont call that a success. i dont care how much it might be "but that was unexpected delays". a few weeks ok - a few months. ok. almost 1.5 years of delay and still not shipped - after asking for money and giving a shipping date almost 1.5 years ago - fail. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
-[ Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 09:20:56PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler ] > openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time > my > money goes to any such group/venture. The fact is they proved community does not need to be backed up by an industrial pot of gold to build this kind of hardware. Your personal feelings about the overall outcome is not on topic but as far as I can tell from the gp32x forums many people do not consider the project as a failure. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
What about the Ben NanoNote (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page). They showed how the process is done, from the beginning to the end (I don't know about the funding). Although it's not a phone, I do have a working ultra-portable now for a reasonable price :) (It just needs some software-ports, but that is part of the fun). Ghislain http://www.basetrend.nl BaseTrend - http://www.openmobile.nl openmobile.nl -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/gta02-core-was-Re-OM-future-tp4628177p4631684.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:54 +0100 ri...@happyleptic.org said: > Community can be another "pot of gold". You can preorder the phones, > raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...). > > That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful. > Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork, > administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand > they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of > design (and still far from being outperformed by competition). successful? when they took your money 1.5 years ago promised to ship 1.25 years ago.. and still have not? sitting on your money? aweesome. trust me - it's already outperformed by things like the nexus-1 or a slew of other htc stuff - the new snapdragon based soc's and more. by double or more. and it still has yet to ship a single unit. these others have been shipping for ages (1ghz shnapragon windows mobile toshiba phone been going for a while now). openpandora is a wonderful example of a big fat FAIL on this. it's last time my money goes to any such group/venture. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Community can be another "pot of gold". You can preorder the phones, raise funds, etc (see blender, or wikipedia...). That's how the small team behind the openpandora was successful. Yes, the openpandora is not a phone and thus needs less paperwork, administrative authorization and license fees, but on the other hand they build a gadget that was top-notch technology at the time of design (and still far from being outperformed by competition). ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:41:42 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra said: > Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: > > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't > > built in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible > > ones. sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one > > small step closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's > > the nature of compromises. but you can get some of it at least. > > Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people > working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much > nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start > *then* instead of now :) > > The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in > developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and > I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely > gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a > smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). > > As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but > complementing. ask werner. he's waiting for the pot of gold to make gta02-core go from files and plans to product. waiting and waiting for it... and he's right - he needs the pot of gold. and while he waits - the design ages, components become rarer ads they age... unlike software - which has pretty much 0 cost of entry, modification and distribution other than time and effort - hardware doesn't. thats a fundamental difference. anyone - if they have source, can modify, improve or whatever some code with the only real cost being time, production, distribution is basically free (via compiling+tarring up+download/internet). hardware is not. every "Download" is a hefty cost - and that cost is also entirely based on how much "stock" you prepare for "download" first (100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000 etc.) and for the lower numbers sometimes production just wont happen as no one is willing to produce so few. minimum production numbers etc. you could do a fully open phone 1 at a time. it'd cost $1mil+ per phone. got the pot of gold to make your own $1mil+ phone? :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Em 25-02-2010 01:39, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) escreveu: > boys with the big pots of money are surprisingly close there. rome wasn't > built > in one day. fight the battles you can win - dont fight the impossible ones. > sure - it's not as glorious. it's not as sexy. but it gets you one small step > closer to where you'd like to be. you may never get it. that's the nature of > compromises. but you can get some of it at least. Oh come on, don't beat them with a stick, if you don't have people working on this now, then when the time comes there will be pretty much nothing to show and all the time of development will have to start *then* instead of now :) The beauty of these communities thing is that one resource spent in developping gta02-core is not one resource not spent in SHR because (and I might be wrong here because I'm not into gta02-core) most likely gta02-core people don't feel as excited writing software for a smartphone environment (PIM, call support, other apps, etc...). As such, gta02-core people are not diminishing SHR people, but complementing. Hugs, Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:57:39 -0800 (PST) Rafael Ignacio Zurita said: > Hi, I think that gta02-core is the key (or part of). > > All of us have been talking about the problems with openmoko hardware > for years. And because all of us have different ideas and feelings > we use this list as our psychologist :-) > > But still if there are a lot of different ideas and feelings > I always read the same conclusions : > > - Openmoko hardware has problems > - There is no other open linux mobile phone like we want >(open on both, software and hardware sides : without signed > bootloader images/etc) > > Also, because we write those feelings all the time, we can read > the answers from old Openmoko devels who also have differente ideas. > But, most of them have, as well, the same conclusions : > > (1) Openmoko failed internally > (2) The Openmoko development process was not good > > When we look for alternatives these are always the same, > from big companies, and with the same features: > propietary components and perhaps monopolistic. So I guess no, > there is no open linux mobile phone like most of us want. > > Then, you can find possible (future) alternatives. If you read Raster words > he says that just a big guy (company) can do a sucessful linux product, > because it needs money and lots of people. Perhaps that would > be just a small step toward an complete open Linux mobile phone. > If lot of little steps are made, some day we may get what we want. > > But, I also feel that gta02-core is another key to fix some > of the conclusions that ex openmoko developers did, because > gta02-core tries to fix the process. > > I read from time to time the gta02-core mailing list, and irc chat log. > Some people think that that project goes slow and because gta02-core > won't produce the next gta03 mobile phone, then > it is useless and a waste of time. > > But no, if you read well, then you will realize that it is a > community development process, and if this project succeeds then > the development of a new cool open linux mobile phone may > follow similar lines of the gta02-core process documents. > > That would fix the (2), and then you just need a big guy, > like Raster says, without internal problems like there > were at (1). > > With (1) and (2) solved, we would have our cool linux device > wanted, and without bad feelings to go to the psychologist ;-) > > Now, I have not tried to help a lot to gta02-core, and I don't > know why there are just few people doing all the hard work. > > In few months gta02-core has created and reviewed the component diagrams, > created and reviewed the schematics (using just open source software), > found a smt line (from an university) to do the prototipes, written > a footprint editor. > > I guess that they need the components kit that Sean/Openmoko inc > promised, and help of much people from community to continue > (check the tasks list to do). > > The important thing is that the gta02-core project output will be > the development process docs and the organisation for that. > Proper processes and organisation, plus software (linux+fso+shr(distros)) > will give us a great opportunity to find some > company without internal problems and say them : > > "Hey, we know how to development an open linux mobile phone > like it should be, so please, start a new project for > that kind of hardware and we will point you how to do it" ;) > > Now, I need to check how to really help more and stop to > look for a replacement (which does not exist). > > fso, shr, gta02-core, other distros : thanks!, and keep the great > job you do. openmoko managed to produce something at all... because someone (sean) was lucky enough to find a pot of gold without strings attached making stuff closed. such a pot of gold is amazingly rare - and if found is of limited size. unless that pot of gold is used very smartly to bootstrap a self-funding profitable venture it's all doomed to failure. gta02-core is waiting for that pot of gold. as such it may wait years for it to appear - if it ever does. you can design yourself silly - without the money to buy components in quantities that make them sufficiently cheap and the ability to fund the certifications, production and all the initial costs before even 1 thing rolls off the line that can be put in a box and shipped to someone... you're goign to just wait.. and wait... and wait - and in the end your gta02-core design will not be possible as components you used go out of circulation and your design is the equivalent of using an 8 bit microcontroller in todays phones - ie the world moved on and your wonderfully open design is useless as the world moved on to LTE, 8-core multi-ghz soc's with multiple gpu cores, and god knows what else and THAT is now considered a phone - your old design is like saying "hey - i have an open 20mhz 386 here with a hercules video card, 2mb ram and 75 baud modem! isn't that awesome - it's OPEN!"... but you s
gta02-core (was Re: OM future)
Hi, I think that gta02-core is the key (or part of). All of us have been talking about the problems with openmoko hardware for years. And because all of us have different ideas and feelings we use this list as our psychologist :-) But still if there are a lot of different ideas and feelings I always read the same conclusions : - Openmoko hardware has problems - There is no other open linux mobile phone like we want (open on both, software and hardware sides : without signed bootloader images/etc) Also, because we write those feelings all the time, we can read the answers from old Openmoko devels who also have differente ideas. But, most of them have, as well, the same conclusions : (1) Openmoko failed internally (2) The Openmoko development process was not good When we look for alternatives these are always the same, from big companies, and with the same features: propietary components and perhaps monopolistic. So I guess no, there is no open linux mobile phone like most of us want. Then, you can find possible (future) alternatives. If you read Raster words he says that just a big guy (company) can do a sucessful linux product, because it needs money and lots of people. Perhaps that would be just a small step toward an complete open Linux mobile phone. If lot of little steps are made, some day we may get what we want. But, I also feel that gta02-core is another key to fix some of the conclusions that ex openmoko developers did, because gta02-core tries to fix the process. I read from time to time the gta02-core mailing list, and irc chat log. Some people think that that project goes slow and because gta02-core won't produce the next gta03 mobile phone, then it is useless and a waste of time. But no, if you read well, then you will realize that it is a community development process, and if this project succeeds then the development of a new cool open linux mobile phone may follow similar lines of the gta02-core process documents. That would fix the (2), and then you just need a big guy, like Raster says, without internal problems like there were at (1). With (1) and (2) solved, we would have our cool linux device wanted, and without bad feelings to go to the psychologist ;-) Now, I have not tried to help a lot to gta02-core, and I don't know why there are just few people doing all the hard work. In few months gta02-core has created and reviewed the component diagrams, created and reviewed the schematics (using just open source software), found a smt line (from an university) to do the prototipes, written a footprint editor. I guess that they need the components kit that Sean/Openmoko inc promised, and help of much people from community to continue (check the tasks list to do). The important thing is that the gta02-core project output will be the development process docs and the organisation for that. Proper processes and organisation, plus software (linux+fso+shr(distros)) will give us a great opportunity to find some company without internal problems and say them : "Hey, we know how to development an open linux mobile phone like it should be, so please, start a new project for that kind of hardware and we will point you how to do it" ;) Now, I need to check how to really help more and stop to look for a replacement (which does not exist). fso, shr, gta02-core, other distros : thanks!, and keep the great job you do. -- Rafael Ignacio Zurita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
