Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
This recent thread of mine concerning relicensing of the AMR codec will be of certain interest to those interested in this thread: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.user/159060 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
First off, I'd just like to say that this is a great discussion (although it has very little to do about 3G support for Linux :) tor 2008-09-18 klockan 10:14 +1000 skrev Lorn Potter: > Mikko Rauhala wrote: > > to, 2008-09-18 kello 05:45 +1000, Lorn Potter kirjoitti: > >> Mikko Rauhala wrote: > >>> Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way > >>> too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free > >>> software whatsoever. > >> I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia > >> certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are > >> committed to keeping them open source. > > > > Sure Nokia has some products which happen to be free software. That > > doesn't make them committed to free software, what with being eg. > > hostile to free formats, > IANAL, but... (nor am I a spokesperson for Nokia) [...] > > development in general through their patent lobby, very much clueless in > > top level press comments about these subjects, > > and in general not being > > very consistent in what they're up to in this area. > > Nokia employs thousands of _individuals_, we are not borg, nor do we all > think and act the same. > > > > >> Maemo is quite good. That is pure Nokia. Qt and Qtopia are good, that is > >> now from Nokia... > > > > The tablet OS has significant proprietary portions, both third party and > > in-house - the latter having insiders commenting that it's difficult > > (when at all possible) to get the go-ahead to free the code properly. > > Not to mention the target hardware platform pretty much requires binary > > blob kernel code and such (last I checked anyway). > > > > Not meaning to start a Nokia flamefest here, it was originally just a > > side comment, but since we have a (paid) on-list representative here, > > apparently a reminder of the other side of the coin is in order. > > Not sure if you are aware, but I have my roots from within the community, > [...] > > Change _will_ happen. But it will happen slowly. I believe a fair part of the criticism (or skepticism) is based on expectations. Now that Nokia bought Trolltech a lot of different things could happen: - Nokia believes in the future of Open Source and heavily invests in Trolltech and tries to expand it's "business" and/or increase -- speed -- width/breadth -- depth (_100 % free software on the Qtopia stack, maemo, etc) -- opens up hardware -- tries to stop the cat-and-mouse game with patents - Nokia bought Trolltech to charm a very important audience, the Open Source world. This means keeping Trolltech somewhat happy (providing a secure stable (non-expanding) financial future) - Nokia bought Trolltech to get benefits out of -- people's skills -- a platform (technically speaking) - Nokia bought Trolltech to remove a potential threat What I'm aiming for here is that if and only if (and hopefully), it has to do with the first option. Nokia is willing to move to the open world because it believes it's the right thing to do. If it was so, I guess people expect that every step in that direction would be promoted and besides PR you'd see Trolltech/Nokia advancing into new fields and areas. I guess and think a lot of people feel that they've yet to see proof from Nokia - on their open source strategy, - how they'll embrace and later adapt to a more open community, - basically their belief in (F)OSS. Until a critical amount of "hard evidence" is perceived by the community, Nokia will be looked upon with suspicious eyes and people will fear if not the worst at least not the best. And (with all due respect) - with a Nokia label/t-shirt on, you'll have to prove your credibility to the community not just once but every now and then, probably every day. The (judging) majority doesn't know your history, care to read up on it or even know how to. It has nothing to do with Nokia per ser, only that you actually sold your freedom of speech to a company (I'm pretty sure you can't talk about all that you know by now because of the way things are with a "normal" company that sells products - you're not allowed to talk to the market about products in ways not approved by marketing/product owners). My opinion is that Nokia brings money and it's put to use in way that produces FOSS. That's good no matter what happens next. I'm glad we have this discussion in the first place, and that wouldn't have happened if Nokia weren't there - so for that I'm happy with Nokia too. In regards to your last sentence "Change _will_ happen. But it will happen slowly." I'd just like to add that you'll have to stick up with skepticism until there's enough honest moves being made from Nokia. It looks to me like the current state is not enough to convince a greater majority. My 0,2 SEK. / Fredrik signature.asc Description: Detta är en digitalt signerad meddelandedel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.ope
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
to, 2008-09-18 kello 10:14 +1000, Lorn Potter kirjoitti: > Mikko Rauhala wrote: > > Sure Nokia has some products which happen to be free software. That > > doesn't make them committed to free software, what with being eg. > > hostile to free formats, > IANAL, but... (nor am I a spokesperson for Nokia) > Nokia's position is that here are no 'free' codecs. > _Everything_ has patents surrounding it. Thing is, you don't get to first intimidate governments to implement strong software patents, and then innocently use them as an excuse to hinder free format adoption. > > a strong opponent of independent software > > Have you seen forum.nokia.com? or maemo.org? Know about 'Qt Everywhere'? Somewhat, though not intimately. All of the people involved in these are nevertheless also put into risk by - ta-dah - Nokia's actions in legislation. (I personally have been in the same table with them in a couple of ministry lobbying sessions on behalf of EFFI (EFF's Finnish counterpart) and the local CS dept, and also otherwise followed their actions closely in the previous EU swpat round.) > > development in general through their patent lobby, very much clueless in > > top level press comments about these subjects, > > and in general not being very consistent in what they're up to in this area. > > Nokia employs thousands of _individuals_, we are not borg, nor do we > all think and act the same. Indeed, I understand that. However, what I originally said that Nokia doesn't have any commitment to free software. You can't take issue with that by stating that there are different opinions in different tentacles of Nokia, and they're all doing their own thing. That really just verifies the original statement. Commitment kind of implies a certain amount of borginess. I am also aware that the leeches^Wlawyers and management at Nokia are mostly to blame for the bad, and many of the grassroots people might be more reasonable. Doesn't really matter either, as the former make the rules. As an example of such a stand-up grassroots ex-Nokia fellow, I nominate a friend of mine, http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/2004-12.html#20041208b (Yeah, it's almost 4 years old, but as you note at the end of your mail, change happens slowly ;] ) > I have done my share of complaining about Nokia's software patents > (directly to the Finns too!), the closed-ness of maemo and (for a year > or so) Qtopia. That's good, and on one hand I'm glad that there are such people at Nokia. On the other, I'd kind of prefer them to abandon ship and let Nokia become the closed Apple-like behemoth it somewhat seems to want to be. Because more of them don't (see above url), I get the impression that most of them don't really mind Nokia's policies _that_ much, so it really doesn't seem that they'd be a source of much impetus for change. In the final analysis, though, I admit I don't know which is the more realistic approach to increasing total freedom and choice in the market. Perhaps the "kinda-sorta for freedom" guys inside will have some clout and will to use it eventually. > Change _will_ happen. But it will happen slowly. Indeed. Until then, however, I will include a disclaimer about Nokia's less favourable policies whenever I must mention them doing something nice for a change. I think here's a good point to agree to disagree, but of course, I'd get the final word in that case, so not all may agree - I tried to make it fairly balanced as best I could though ;) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Mikko Rauhala wrote: > to, 2008-09-18 kello 05:45 +1000, Lorn Potter kirjoitti: >> Mikko Rauhala wrote: >>> Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way >>> too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free >>> software whatsoever. >> I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia >> certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are >> committed to keeping them open source. > > Sure Nokia has some products which happen to be free software. That > doesn't make them committed to free software, what with being eg. > hostile to free formats, IANAL, but... (nor am I a spokesperson for Nokia) Nokia's position is that here are no 'free' codecs. _Everything_ has patents surrounding it. According to Nokia's attorneys, ogg/vorbis is encumbered by patents as well, regardless of what Xiph says about it. Nokia does not want to chance getting sued over patents, they are _very_ costly. They have very deep pockets. It's not just Nokia, it's other phone manufactures and mostly phone operators. > a strong opponent of independent software Have you seen forum.nokia.com? or maemo.org? Know about 'Qt Everywhere'? > development in general through their patent lobby, very much clueless in > top level press comments about these subjects, > and in general not being > very consistent in what they're up to in this area. Nokia employs thousands of _individuals_, we are not borg, nor do we all think and act the same. > >> Maemo is quite good. That is pure Nokia. Qt and Qtopia are good, that is >> now from Nokia... > > The tablet OS has significant proprietary portions, both third party and > in-house - the latter having insiders commenting that it's difficult > (when at all possible) to get the go-ahead to free the code properly. > Not to mention the target hardware platform pretty much requires binary > blob kernel code and such (last I checked anyway). > > Not meaning to start a Nokia flamefest here, it was originally just a > side comment, but since we have a (paid) on-list representative here, > apparently a reminder of the other side of the coin is in order. Not sure if you are aware, but I have my roots from within the community, was the community manager for a few years and I am very aware of the community side of things. I am a fence sitter. It is part of my job to see both sides. I have done my share of complaining about Nokia's software patents (directly to the Finns too!), the closed-ness of maemo and (for a year or so) Qtopia. Change _will_ happen. But it will happen slowly. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, Trolltech, a Nokia company ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Marcus Bauer wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 05:45 +1000, Lorn Potter wrote: >> I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia >> certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are >> committed to keeping them open source. > > I wonder what your plans are for the phone stack? I doubt that you are > going FSO? At least to me this is a big horror as is much of the > Openmoko software development. It is just not clear what the other open > source players are doing? The single most important piece is the gsmd > with muxing capabilities and some kind of stable API. Next important > part is the power management. > > Can you publically talk about where you are going? Qtopia does not use gsmd, but has it's own gsm classes. Qtopia has 95% the needed parts for a workable phone. It has power management classes, as well. But the stableness and reliability of them depend on the underlying system to function properly. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, Trolltech, a Nokia company ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 02:50:47PM -0700, Jim Morris wrote: > To be honest even though I love open source/free software my experiences with > OpenMoko Freerunner > has soured me a little bit. I bought a phone that was supposed to be usable > as a phone and as of > today still is not usable as a phone. (and don't flame me about you should > have known what you were > getting, check the Wiki and purchase site back in July and there is no > mention of how unstable it > is, it is better documented now). > > The Trolltech Qtopia release is the closest thing to a stable environment for > the phone (still not > quite usable as a phone though, but closer than anything else currently > available). Well, I'm using my Freerunner as my day to day phone (actually so much I'm now wary of doing experiments, sadly). (using Om2008.9.12 IIRC) Rui -- Today is Setting Orange, the 41st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Mikko Rauhala wrote: > > Sure Nokia has some products which happen to be free software. That > doesn't make them committed to free software, what with being eg. > hostile to free formats, a strong opponent of independent software > development in general through their patent lobby, very much clueless in > top level press comments about these subjects, and in general not being > very consistent in what they're up to in this area. > .. > > The tablet OS has significant proprietary portions, both third party and > in-house - the latter having insiders commenting that it's difficult > (when at all possible) to get the go-ahead to free the code properly. > Not to mention the target hardware platform pretty much requires binary > blob kernel code and such (last I checked anyway). > To be honest even though I love open source/free software my experiences with OpenMoko Freerunner has soured me a little bit. I bought a phone that was supposed to be usable as a phone and as of today still is not usable as a phone. (and don't flame me about you should have known what you were getting, check the Wiki and purchase site back in July and there is no mention of how unstable it is, it is better documented now). The Trolltech Qtopia release is the closest thing to a stable environment for the phone (still not quite usable as a phone though, but closer than anything else currently available). Needing a phone I could actually use as a phone I had to go buy a new cell phone, so I picked up an unlocked Nokia E62 relatively cheap. This is a totally proprietary phone, but it works really well, has a ton of apps on it that also all work, and the bluetooth works exactly as expected with handsfree and headset devices. GPRS works well, and there is a working J2ME stack on it. (so google maps works etc) My point is I'd gladly give up some open source rights in exchange for a phone that works as expected. I'll continue playing with my FR, but I suspect it'll be another 6 months before I can start using it as my primary phone. So there are pluses and minuses to open source, yes you can do whatever you want on it, but the time line to getting a stable environment is pretty long, especially as OM seems to be relying heavily on the community to provide stable core features for the phone. Whereas the non open source stacks out there seem to be very stable and work pretty darn well today. A good trade off IMHO would be to allow a closed but working GSM stack, and leave all the other applications stuff open. That way you get a good stable phone but can still write apps for it in whatever language you desire. Just my 2c :) -- Jim Morris, http://blog.wolfman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
to, 2008-09-18 kello 05:45 +1000, Lorn Potter kirjoitti: > Mikko Rauhala wrote: > > Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way > > too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free > > software whatsoever. > > I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia > certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are > committed to keeping them open source. Sure Nokia has some products which happen to be free software. That doesn't make them committed to free software, what with being eg. hostile to free formats, a strong opponent of independent software development in general through their patent lobby, very much clueless in top level press comments about these subjects, and in general not being very consistent in what they're up to in this area. > Maemo is quite good. That is pure Nokia. Qt and Qtopia are good, that is > now from Nokia... The tablet OS has significant proprietary portions, both third party and in-house - the latter having insiders commenting that it's difficult (when at all possible) to get the go-ahead to free the code properly. Not to mention the target hardware platform pretty much requires binary blob kernel code and such (last I checked anyway). Not meaning to start a Nokia flamefest here, it was originally just a side comment, but since we have a (paid) on-list representative here, apparently a reminder of the other side of the coin is in order. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/> Transhumanist - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/> Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/> ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 05:45 +1000, Lorn Potter wrote: > I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia > certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are > committed to keeping them open source. I wonder what your plans are for the phone stack? I doubt that you are going FSO? At least to me this is a big horror as is much of the Openmoko software development. It is just not clear what the other open source players are doing? The single most important piece is the gsmd with muxing capabilities and some kind of stable API. Next important part is the power management. Can you publically talk about where you are going? Best regards, Marcus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Mikko Rauhala wrote: > Bumped into the following: > http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/09/17/dr-ari-jaaksi-on-maemo-5/ > > Relevantly "Nokia is now Gold Sponsor of Linux Foundation, has > contributed code today for 3G/HSPA cellular (data) connectivity for > OMAP3 to Linux kernel" > > I would interpret this as there being a free driver solution for 3G > handset suitable chipsets now available, though perhaps I am missing > some details? Good for 04 (you know, whenever) getting UMTS, one might > hope? > > Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way > too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free > software whatsoever. I would beg to differ. Trolltech is now part of Nokia, Qt and Qtopia certainly are open source and I can tell you for certain, we are committed to keeping them open source. Nokia is also a patron of KDE. Thats more than I can say about other phone manufacturers... > But, if something good comes out of them, that's, > well, "good". Maemo is quite good. That is pure Nokia. Qt and Qtopia are good, that is now from Nokia... -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, Trolltech, a Nokia company ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Mikko Rauhala wrote: > Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way > too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free > software whatsoever. But, if something good comes out of them, that's, > well, "good". > Open source or not, you've gotta admit Nokia do make good phones. If I hadn't found the FreeRunner, I'd have looked at the Nokias first before any other brand. Their phones 'just work', and I've never had a problem with one (apart from not being able to ssh into it!) A couple of weeks ago I had my work phone (Nokia 6230) come out of my pocket while I was riding my motorbike at about 80kph. I found it on the side of the road later, not only was it not broken, it hadn't even come apart (battery hadn't come out) and was still turned on! -Dale ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: (Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
2008/9/17 Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Bumped into the following: > http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/09/17/dr-ari-jaaksi-on-maemo-5/ > > Relevantly "Nokia is now Gold Sponsor of Linux Foundation, has > contributed code today for 3G/HSPA cellular (data) connectivity for > OMAP3 to Linux kernel" > > I would interpret this as there being a free driver solution for 3G > handset suitable chipsets now available, though perhaps I am missing > some details? Good for 04 (you know, whenever) getting UMTS, one might > hope? > > Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way > too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free > software whatsoever. But, if something good comes out of them, that's, > well, "good". > Just last week I wrote to the 3GPP asking if they would open source the AMR codecs. I have received reply and I am discussing the matter with them. I suggest that you write to them as well asking about it: http://www.3gpp.org/Contact/contact.htm -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
(Some?) 3G support for Linux from Nokia - relevant for future models?
Bumped into the following: http://www.internettablettalk.com/2008/09/17/dr-ari-jaaksi-on-maemo-5/ Relevantly "Nokia is now Gold Sponsor of Linux Foundation, has contributed code today for 3G/HSPA cellular (data) connectivity for OMAP3 to Linux kernel" I would interpret this as there being a free driver solution for 3G handset suitable chipsets now available, though perhaps I am missing some details? Good for 04 (you know, whenever) getting UMTS, one might hope? Personally I'll be loathe to buy Nokia products anyway, they're just way too inconsistent with their policies and have no commitment to free software whatsoever. But, if something good comes out of them, that's, well, "good". -- Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> University of Helsinki, Department of Computer Science ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
