Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance: Proposed wiki page: How to respond to list email: 1. Never remove any re: in the message subject. Some (not all) email clients use this to identify the thread. 2. If your email client adds the original poster and other addressees to the Cc: field, remove them. You should always respond only to the list. This will not work. Defaults will prevail. Everyone will do at least few replies with these ugly CCs before (s)he will get idea that something is wrong.Already tested on my own ass - got some of these double-messages just now. Real fix: set up mailing list to put its own address (community@lists.openmoko.org) into into Reply-to: header and instruct people to hit Reply (not Reply all).I hope google cares about this header as well? These CCs are possible even with regular mail client, too. With default state of things I have to remove original sender manually and insert mailing list into To: field instead. In no way I want to mail to original sender directly when using mailing list. P.S. I'm stopping replying to this google story thread. It isn't interesting - flame mode off. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Just a personal feedback - I'm just writing for me Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On Wednesday 14 February 2007 11:52, t3st3r wrote: [snip] I'm do not care about google mail. However it is quite strange that when I'm about to reply, there is actual message author in To: and mailing list in CC: in my Thunderbird.As for me, this is inconvienient. IMHO, list address should be in from header by default, isn't it? Originally filed as a bug back in 2000(!) there's now a Thunderbird extension that adds a Reply-To-List button. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45715 http://cweiske.de/misc_extensions.htm#replyToList ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Salve Richard, *! I full agree with you! But dubbel mails from gmail is IMHO not the worst - it is starting new threads with every answer be not using working Referneces or In-Replay-To On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Richard Bennett wrote: Hi, Why so many people who believe in the ideals put forward by the Neo/Openmoko project are happy to use Gmail astounds me... tzz, locking forward to have more ICT freedom with OpenMoko/Neo1973 but wasting personal freedom and privatcy by using the datacollecting monster google A nyway, aside from that minirant, is it possible when sending mail from Gmail to not CC loads of people in the meantime? The gmailers here on the list are also _rowdily_ by not using an emailclient with supporting working References :(( Maybe they are so ICT unskilled that they do not know that good emailcinets support threading for efficient and civilised communication. So either someone of the gmail guys explains the other gmail ICT-noobs how to use an emailclient for a civilised participtation on a mailinglist, or I will gooing filter all mails comming from gmail.com. (Gmail users seems to become what AOL users has been known for) Nice hints like: S: Small hint: Your Email hasn't a working References: or In-Reply-To: in its header, so no email client could put it into the right thread. Please check if you can answer with Referneces. Seems not to be understood or respected. Sorry for my hard words,* but as we known there are over 800 people on the list and a mailinglist without respecting References in the emailheader will making an unneccessary mess in our inboxes, but also on the webarchives. So when you are using gmail and you know how to use gmail civilised on a mailinglist, please explain other gmailers how to do so Which gmail user can help? Thank you :)) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Salve! Excuse me, I myself was writing once here on this list about respect and to give everybody a warm welcome. The best solution for mailinglist formal things would be personal mails with explaination... Robert Michel schrieb am Dienstag, den 13. Februar 2007 um 13:57h: The gmailers here on the list are also _rowdily_ by not using an emailclient with supporting working References :(( I don't mean every gmail user - I just wanted to express that using gmail could become or already is a negative business cardm personal reference like using hotmail or aol mailaccount. I know that there are good reasons to use a separate freemailer account for a mailinglist, especialy when you don't have a own mailserver... My comment was a little to fast written, my intention was to motivate others - maybe you, with the knowledge how to use gmail in a good way to explainig it to people here on this list doesn't having this knowledge or caring about threads. Hope this apology helps to motivate people to let this mailinglist running with respect, but also with efficiency due working threads. So how can write a short explaination for gmail users in the wiki? Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
I just read the other email which started this discussion about gmail and think I understand the problem. The problem is with the list. I am on 15 tech mailing lists, and this is the only one which, if I in gmail say reply to replys to the sender and not to the list. I NEVER*** want to reply to the individual when responding to a post on the list. If I say reply to all it puts the senders address in the to field and the openmoko address in the cc field. I strongly suspect this is the cause of unwanted cc's. Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Salve hank! Thank you for your feedback ;) On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: You are misinformed if you believe that gmail does not handle threads properly. Maybe, it would be nice when other gmail users explain gmail users how to use gmail proper, instead of that I have to inform myself about gmail. In fact I think it is the best product on the market, free or otherwise, for handling threads. The problem which you are referring to has nothing to do with gmail, but with the fact that some people mistakenly delete the re: from the mail header when responding. This is only a backup for threading mails - threading by subjects. The better way is threading with working References in the header. Q: Is gmail killing this reference line in the header when the Subject does not begin with re:? Realy? Can you test this? BTW, it seems that e.g. Ryan is using Apple Mail as MUA. (Mail user agent = email client) AFAIK Apple mail can set References in the header. So the question stil is, what make the References missing for Ryan by using gmail. Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
As a Gmail user (all my emails route to Gmail), I found it the best because it is free, reliable, works on all my mobile devices, large storage, easy to use, good spam filtering, and has excellent threading. In fact, the only messages that become de-threaded are yours rob. Your habit of changing the subject line makes the email messages show up out of thread. Now, perhaps this is the fault of GMail - or the Mail list application that the OpenMoKo list is using. But it isn't nice, or professional, to disparage people (especially an obvious majority) just because of the email service they use. Andrew by the way, it's spelled References On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Richard, *! I full agree with you! But dubbel mails from gmail is IMHO not the worst - it is starting new threads with every answer be not using working Referneces or In-Replay-To On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Richard Bennett wrote: Hi, Why so many people who believe in the ideals put forward by the Neo/Openmoko project are happy to use Gmail astounds me... tzz, locking forward to have more ICT freedom with OpenMoko/Neo1973 but wasting personal freedom and privatcy by using the datacollecting monster google A nyway, aside from that minirant, is it possible when sending mail from Gmail to not CC loads of people in the meantime? The gmailers here on the list are also _rowdily_ by not using an emailclient with supporting working References :(( Maybe they are so ICT unskilled that they do not know that good emailcinets support threading for efficient and civilised communication. So either someone of the gmail guys explains the other gmail ICT-noobs how to use an emailclient for a civilised participtation on a mailinglist, or I will gooing filter all mails comming from gmail.com. (Gmail users seems to become what AOL users has been known for) Nice hints like: S: Small hint: Your Email hasn't a working References: or In-Reply-To: in its header, so no email client could put it into the right thread. Please check if you can answer with Referneces. Seems not to be understood or respected. Sorry for my hard words,* but as we known there are over 800 people on the list and a mailinglist without respecting References in the emailheader will making an unneccessary mess in our inboxes, but also on the webarchives. So when you are using gmail and you know how to use gmail civilised on a mailinglist, please explain other gmailers how to do so Which gmail user can help? Thank you :)) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Andrew Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED]42.4266N x 83.4931W http://highearthorbit.com Northville, Michigan, USA ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve hank! Thank you for your feedback ;) On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: You are misinformed if you believe that gmail does not handle threads properly. Maybe, it would be nice when other gmail users explain gmail users how to use gmail proper, instead of that I have to inform myself about gmail. That would assume there is some improper way that people are handling gmail. I disagree. In fact I think it is the best product on the market, free or otherwise, for handling threads. The problem which you are referring to has nothing to do with gmail, but with the fact that some people mistakenly delete the re: from the mail header when responding. This is only a backup for threading mails - threading by subjects. The better way is threading with working References in the header. hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. That would make for a really easy time finding emails where you *meant* to change the subject and create a new thread. Q: Is gmail killing this reference line in the header when the Subject does not begin with re:? Realy? Can you test this? BTW, it seems that e.g. Ryan is using Apple Mail as MUA. (Mail user agent = email client) AFAIK Apple mail can set References in the header. So the question stil is, what make the References missing for Ryan by using gmail. Ahh... this is interesting - apple mail + gmail = problem I have no idea since I use the web client. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: This explains the CC'ing but what's about the missing references? Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve hank! This explains the CC'ing. On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, hank williams wrote: I just read the other email which started this discussion about gmail and think I understand the problem. The problem is with the list. I am on 15 tech mailing lists, and this is the only one which, if I in gmail say reply to replys to the sender and not to the list. I NEVER*** want to reply to the individual when responding to a post on the list. Never say never - I would not call it the problem is with the list I would call the problem is with the user not looking who they are sending an email. If you want the default behavior to be one that encourages the least likely intended result then you are right. In fact, perhaps the default should always be to send the email to George Bush, and then you can just change it to who you really intend! But seriously, the point is that default behavior matters. It should default to the most commonly needed situation, not an edge condition. This is the way *all* my other 14 mailing lists work. Back to the brocken threads - this is not explaining why some gmail users hasn't a proper emailheader with working Reference. Does you have an idea for this as well? As I said in the other thread, I cant speak to what might go wrong with some incorrect setting in apple mail combined with gmail. Regards, Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Thanks Richard. I have read this before, but forgot the official name of reply-to munging. I think your analysis is correct. The only thing I would say is that the non-standards compliant way of handling list administration is in fact, as far as I can tell, the standard way that at least the many high volume lists that I am on behave. Its kind of like being with a woman. You have to decide whether you would rather be happy, or be right. They are mutually exclusive! Regards, Hank On 2/13/07, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 13 February 2007 15:28, hank williams wrote: Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Hi, It's called 'reply-to munging', and it is as contentious as 'gnu-linux or linux', 'Allow proprietary binaries or only OS code', and many other things. Here's the details: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Basically all good email clients support mailinglists that abide by the protocols, with notable exception of Outlook and Gmail. So many list managers allow 'reply-to munging' to make life easier on those users, while all other users have to cope with the broken protocol as best they can, which they usually do pretty well. Sourceforge mailinglists especially push admins not to allow reply-to munging, to encourage to email software to support the protocol correctly, but I have seen many a sourceforge list dwindle to a trickle, because replies were not arriving at the list anymore, only to the original poster. It is difficult to promote working to standards, and then setup your email list in an non standard fashion, but in the same way we support MP3 as well as OGG, it might be better to be pragmatic about this issue, and allow reply-to munging, in the spirit of making the list as accessible and enjoyable to all its users, and to restrict arguments to important topics, not petty list issues. Cheers, Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Sorry for not replying at the bottom... Why the open hostility towards GMail users? You all tout we want freedom to choose and all that, but still you'd like to stifle the same level of freedom of others. I choose to use GMail, that's a deliberate choice, because it's one of the few great _webmail_ applications, with which I can access my mail anywhere I want. (I'm not always at home reading my mail) I've tried Yahoo mail, didn't like it, I even tried Fastmail in the past. (which was slow) Gmail is responsive for me, and has a lot of good features that I like and that I use. And so far I have yet to see any proof of Google actively scr*wing over their customers, by violating their privacy. Yes they add ads on the side of the page by scanning your email, like they also do with the ad-sense ads, there is no difference there, no human eyes are involved in that process. I have seen no proof of datamining, I rarely get spam in my inbox, and most of my mails are threaded. If you can't deal with gmail-messages, fine, block all gmail.com messages, that is your choice. It won't stop me from using Gmail. --- A very miffed Gmail-user, Marcel On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Richard, *! I full agree with you! But dubbel mails from gmail is IMHO not the worst - it is starting new threads with every answer be not using working Referneces or In-Replay-To On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Richard Bennett wrote: Hi, Why so many people who believe in the ideals put forward by the Neo/Openmoko project are happy to use Gmail astounds me... tzz, locking forward to have more ICT freedom with OpenMoko/Neo1973 but wasting personal freedom and privatcy by using the datacollecting monster google A nyway, aside from that minirant, is it possible when sending mail from Gmail to not CC loads of people in the meantime? The gmailers here on the list are also _rowdily_ by not using an emailclient with supporting working References :(( Maybe they are so ICT unskilled that they do not know that good emailcinets support threading for efficient and civilised communication. So either someone of the gmail guys explains the other gmail ICT-noobs how to use an emailclient for a civilised participtation on a mailinglist, or I will gooing filter all mails comming from gmail.com. (Gmail users seems to become what AOL users has been known for) Nice hints like: S: Small hint: Your Email hasn't a working References: or In-Reply-To: in its header, so no email client could put it into the right thread. Please check if you can answer with Referneces. Seems not to be understood or respected. Sorry for my hard words,* but as we known there are over 800 people on the list and a mailinglist without respecting References in the emailheader will making an unneccessary mess in our inboxes, but also on the webarchives. So when you are using gmail and you know how to use gmail civilised on a mailinglist, please explain other gmailers how to do so Which gmail user can help? Thank you :)) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Just a personal feedback - I'm just writing for me Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Oh, and one more thing. You've been told this by others before, but you igore it so I will say it again. You keep changing the subject of your posts, and whether you like it or not you are screwing up gmail threading, and I suspect threading from other programs. That wouldnt be so bad if your new subjects made any sense. Which they dont. This is something that you can fix. And given the volume of your posts it makes the list much harder to follow. Of course I guess you would prefer that we gmail people just go away anyway, so why listen to us. Hank ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Richard Bennett wrote: On Tuesday 13 February 2007 15:28, hank williams wrote: Again, out of 15 lists, this only happens for me on the openmoko list. Now I have read that some consider this a feature. And perhaps there are benefits I don't understand. but with 25-50% of the tech mailing list readers using gmail, having a list feature that causes this kind of a problem should probably be reconsidered. I do not believe this is something that can be worked around in gmail other than by manually fixing every send to this list (which I do). I would ask the openmoko team to consider fixing the mailing list parameters in order to fix this problem. Hi, It's called 'reply-to munging', and it is as contentious as 'gnu-linux or linux', 'Allow proprietary binaries or only OS code', and many other things. Here's the details: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Basically all good email clients support mailinglists that abide by the protocols, with notable exception of Outlook and Gmail. So many list managers allow 'reply-to munging' to make life easier on those users, while all other users have to cope with the broken protocol as best they can, which they usually do pretty well. Sourceforge mailinglists especially push admins not to allow reply-to munging, to encourage to email software to support the protocol correctly, but I have seen many a sourceforge list dwindle to a trickle, because replies were not arriving at the list anymore, only to the original poster. It is difficult to promote working to standards, and then setup your email list in an non standard fashion, but in the same way we support MP3 as well as OGG, it might be better to be pragmatic about this issue, and allow reply-to munging, in the spirit of making the list as accessible and enjoyable to all its users, and to restrict arguments to important topics, not petty list issues. Thanks for explaining this, Richard. I had a vague understanding of this problem but not to the level of details you provide. Now I think I understand. I have been guilty (sometimes) of removing the re: to reduce the length of a long subject line. I won't do this any more. When replying, I too try to remember to remove all the individual cc and leave just the mailing list, but sometimes I forget... (My email client is pine. It's all about choice, right? :-) Can we agreen on a small list of guidelines that we could put on the wiki? At least then when the problem comes up we can point at the wiki and hopefully resolve the issue more rapidly (not that this always works). Or is simply coming up with the guidelines too contentious? For instance: Proposed wiki page: How to respond to list email: 1. Never remove any re: in the message subject. Some (not all) email clients use this to identify the thread. 2. If your email client adds the original poster and other addressees to the Cc: field, remove them. You should always respond only to the list. 3. To start a new subject, always compose a new message. Responding to a message, even if you change the subject field, will leave a reference to a previous thread. Others? Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 12:00 -0500, hank williams wrote: On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 10:02 -0500, hank williams wrote: hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. I believe that is proper -- to remain part of the same thread. To create a new thread, start with a new email -- do not reply to a current thread with an altered subject. Well, it depends on how you define proper. Again, to me this is about user interface, and what is expected behavior. I dont think your average (non-programmer) would think that a new message with a a new message no, which is what I said to do if you want to create a new thread -- but the conversation was about replying to a previous message and changing the subject expecting it to start a new thread -- which does not work. different subject would be in the same thread. My gmail account does this, so anyone using gmail should expect it after seeing it occur -- see below. Replies to emails with changed subject show in the same thread/conversation, not new or separate ones. More importantly, the interface revolution in gmail is the grouping of threads by subject. Not based on what I just did ( subject threading may be a fallback mechanism as mentioned earlier -- evolution has this 'option' also). This is one of the reasons that so many people love gmail. It makes what used to be a much more complicated thing much easier to follow. I think people are voting with their email accounts and by this measure people in mailing lists *love* the gmail design. The high percentage of gmail use vs aol or hotmail or outlook or whatever is no coincidence. Regards, Hank In my gmail account: create a message with subject Test Thread - body Test Thread. Send it. Reply to it from gmail account, Change the subject to Test Thread Two - body to test thread Two, Send it. Reply to Test Thread Two, Change subject to Test Thread three - body to Test Thread 3, Send it. View Test Thread Three,,, see that Google 'threaded' all three messages as one thread/conversation, not three separate ones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sorry... Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Reid, Your test doesnt work when you are looking at messages that you yourself sent. Messages you send from a given thread are always in the same thread, but messages from someone else from the same thread with a different subject are not put in the same thread, and that is the problem on the list. Regards, Hank On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 12:00 -0500, hank williams wrote: On 2/13/07, Reid Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 10:02 -0500, hank williams wrote: hmm... guess those Google guys aren't smart enough to handle mail the better way. With your way, even if you change the subject it would be part of the same thread. I believe that is proper -- to remain part of the same thread. To create a new thread, start with a new email -- do not reply to a current thread with an altered subject. Well, it depends on how you define proper. Again, to me this is about user interface, and what is expected behavior. I dont think your average (non-programmer) would think that a new message with a a new message no, which is what I said to do if you want to create a new thread -- but the conversation was about replying to a previous message and changing the subject expecting it to start a new thread -- which does not work. different subject would be in the same thread. My gmail account does this, so anyone using gmail should expect it after seeing it occur -- see below. Replies to emails with changed subject show in the same thread/conversation, not new or separate ones. More importantly, the interface revolution in gmail is the grouping of threads by subject. Not based on what I just did ( subject threading may be a fallback mechanism as mentioned earlier -- evolution has this 'option' also). This is one of the reasons that so many people love gmail. It makes what used to be a much more complicated thing much easier to follow. I think people are voting with their email accounts and by this measure people in mailing lists *love* the gmail design. The high percentage of gmail use vs aol or hotmail or outlook or whatever is no coincidence. Regards, Hank In my gmail account: create a message with subject Test Thread - body Test Thread. Send it. Reply to it from gmail account, Change the subject to Test Thread Two - body to test thread Two, Send it. Reply to Test Thread Two, Change subject to Test Thread three - body to Test Thread 3, Send it. View Test Thread Three,,, see that Google 'threaded' all three messages as one thread/conversation, not three separate ones. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Just a personal feedback - I'm just writing for me Re: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
Hello Robert my apologies too, I was somewhere in a bad mood at the moment I wrote that response, it was like adding oil on the flames, you couldn't know that either. On 2/13/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Marcel,*! This is a personal answer from me - I'm very sorry to started this thread going into deep and I do not want to harm Openmoko by dissmotivating people to join... So, my style was not ok and I already asked for excuse me. Apology accepted. On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Marcel de Jong wrote: Sorry for not replying at the bottom... Why the open hostility towards GMail users? You all tout we want freedom to choose and all that, but still you'd like to stifle the same level of freedom of others. I choose to use GMail, that's a deliberate choice, because it's one of the few great _webmail_ applications, with which I can access my mail anywhere I want. (I'm not always at home reading my mail) I've tried Yahoo mail, didn't like it, I even tried Fastmail in the past. (which was slow) Gmail is responsive for me, and has a lot of good features that I like and that I use. And so far I have yet to see any proof of Google actively scr*wing over their customers, by violating their privacy. Yes they add ads on the side of the page by scanning your email, Yes, google is scanning *my* email and selling adds fitting to the mail - maybe also selling informations about me to others... I know that there were privacy advocates in the beginning that were saying that, but I don't think that Google goes so far to do that, they'd waste a lot of goodwill that they have. You as gmail user has agreed that google is allowed to - scan *my* email - to save *my* email as long as google likes. Your ISP scans your email too, at least if you are not running your own mailserver. Who knows what happens there. I do not have a problem with this, as long it is only about emails going to a public mailinglist - but when I want to send a personal mail to that person the problems starts. like they also do with the ad-sense ads, there is no difference there, no human eyes are involved in that process. I have seen no proof of datamining, http://www.epic.org/privacy/gmail/faq.html What is their standpoint on adsense on webpages where you can contribute, such as wikis and for instance comments on weblogs. Then your content is subject to the same things that your emails are on gmail's servers. I don't see the difference there, agreed with regards to really personal emails, yes, you do not post them somewhere on a webserver, but still no other human eyes will see those, aside from you and the recipient. Just a machine that determines which ad could be placed along side it. (Google is a business like any other, they too want to earn money) :) Comparing with the spirit of the BBS times (with modems) a lot of interest of self-determined communication has been lost, people using skype and gmail because it is free - not caring what the price is that the have to pay or the people they are communicate with. I can't understand why people so close-fisted not spending some US$/Euros a year for a mailservice without advertisement and data mining. When more users would do this, better services would be on the market. But those systems aren't there, there isn't a nice easy to use webmail client, with a subscription-fee, that doesn't scan your email. (Hushmail scans your email on spam too, don't they?) And just agreed to Richards point: Why so many people who believe in the ideals put forward by the Neo/Openmoko project are happy to use Gmail astounds me.. If you can't deal with gmail-messages, fine, block all gmail.com My sound was wrong - I just want make you think that you are give away you and others privatcy for a free webmailservice. I don't think that your privacy is in any more danger than the internet already poses. And if it were, Google's webmail is I think the least of your worries (since its data isn't openly available). Anyone can find literally gigabytes of information on you, just by searching the web, and using commercial databases. (Go and look up Privacy is dead, get over it. This was a speech recently held by a private investigator for a 2600.org meeting in New York on the very subject of privacy and how the net threatens it.) And when the webmailer is also reason for trouble I hope my comments against gmail does only cost *me* sympathy points and *not* *OpenMoko* and I also hope that even when my sound was wrong, it creates reflection about decentral self controlled services instead of big-players data-mining solutions. I don't have the time to set up my own webserver, and even if I did, I don't have the machines to do so. So that is clearly not a solution for me, and any other solution would be impossible, if we look at your suggestion. Every other solution is namely a centralized service by a company that could be a data-miner. Sure, I love having
References: And please use a emailclients with working Reference Re: gmail users CC'ing
S: Small hint: Your Email hasn't a working References: or In-Reply-To: in its header, so no email client could put it into the right thread. Please check if you can answer with Referneces. I'm new to forums, etc. Could someone post a tutorial on using Apple mail for refereces, etc. -ryan___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
