RE: Crossroads
Dear Community, A big thanks again for all your feedback! We're meeting with vendors this week and are optimistic about our chances to find a WiFi module. We'll keep you all posted and announce the winner of the free phone once we find the right solution. As for the UI / Application developer work request, we're still processing these emails. Please bare with us as we are just overwhelmed with tasks trying to get the devices built this month. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Companies like Cingular have been known to whitelist handsets. They *could* do it for the Neo. I highly doubt they would. I mean no offense here, but by whitelist, do you actually mean blacklist, or ban? I don't really follow the day-to-day of this market very much, but does FIC have any branding agreements with Cingular or T-Mobile? If so, it seems unlikely that either provider would decide to outright ban a device that's built by FIC from their networks, just because it would make other device manufacturers think that they might be willing to try this power-play with them, and possibly reluctant to conduct future business. It would seem even more audacious if they were to do it when the device had GSM and FCC certification - as they'd in effect be trying to say that those certifications are meaningless with regard to their network, which in turn might cause people to think that they aren't actually standards compliant. Then again, I'm not sure if these companies really care about any of the above... If you want me to say that FIC promises your handset will work on any network in the world, our legal team will have my head ;-) What I will say is that if we find out this handset won't work in NY, I'll fight for you. But again, I _highly_ doubt this will happen. Good spirit to have -- let's get more people from more mobile-device companies saying this for their developer end-users... -Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Benjamin C Burns wrote: Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Companies like Cingular have been known to whitelist handsets. They *could* do it for the Neo. I highly doubt they would. I mean no offense here, but by whitelist, do you actually mean blacklist, or ban? I don't really follow the day-to-day of this market very much, but does FIC have any branding agreements with Cingular or T-Mobile? If so, it A white list is the inverse of a blacklist. Any device on it works. And no, there are no branding arrangements. That may or may not happen by September. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Call-for-WiFi (was Re: Crossroads)
So, which device is expected to have WiFi inside? Because to me, wifi is a big selling point, but the whole Neo1973 itself seems highly desirable and I just don't know if I could wait for a second-generation device ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 15:21 -0400, Mike wrote: This is open source development. So we developers aren't making money here. I for, one am NOT willing to pay $350 to get a device that I'm not sure will work with whatever service I choose, and therefore that I'm not sure I can even develop for. Mike, GSM should work just about anywhere. Maybe you could just tell us where you want to use this device? Plus you're really arguing for no reason. This thread was _us_ asking _you_ for help getting WiFi into this phone ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 20:14 +0100, Danijel Orsolic wrote: I hope you don't mind; I've copied your call for help here: http://www.mobiliberty.com/openmoko_needs_your_help And I submit it to a popular GNU/Linux news site. More exposure means greater chances of you finding the help you need. Awesome! Really appreciate the help! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
hank williams skrev: On 3/13/07, *Gabriel Ambuehl* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 13 March 2007 18:49:17 dimitris wrote: Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? I would very much welcome a standard SD slot anyhow. SD cards are available in bigger sizes than MicroSD. A slot would be great, but I dont think we should be encouraging to forget wifi and just let people buy a card. It is important that developers be able to assume wifi as a baseline standard. OpenMoko is a platform for (in the future) many devices... Don't think You can assume too much anyway. I'm happy with a sd slot (or even, but less happy, with one more but external micro sd slot). Supporting binary drivers for third party extensions is a lot less evil than including stuff that need binary drivers. ... but it depends on if it is realistic to get an external slot into the phone. /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Wed, 2007-03-14 at 00:58 +0100, Robin Sonefors wrote: I have a much more important question, however: will the Neo work with european electrons, or will I need to import asian ones? If I'd need to import a new set of electrons to use for charging my battery every time it runs out, it'd become very expensive very soon. If, on the other hand, I could use my regular wall outlet, the power would be free. You might need to buy a power (head) adapter depending on where you live. But this is what we all have to go through traveling around this world. Can anyone *OFFICIAL* give me any advice on this? If you don't do that within 10 minutes, I'll get a Windows Mobile phone instead. If you're seriously considering buying a Windows Mobile over something like a power adapter, which you could buy at any store for maybe 10 euro, this really is the wrong the device for you now. Hopefully we can better meet your requirements in September. Really guys, this is developers device now. It's for people who think Windows Mobile sucks. And we [all of us together] can do better ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 19:09 +0100, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Tuesday 13 March 2007 18:49:17 dimitris wrote: Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? I would very much welcome a standard SD slot anyhow. SD cards are available in bigger sizes than MicroSD. I totally agree with you. Unfortunately changes like this will require us to change the housing. This impacts our tooling and is _very_ expensive. Standard SD slots are on our roadmap. It's just (most likely) not going to be this year. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
ke, 2007-03-14 kello 16:30 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz kirjoitti: If you're seriously considering buying a Windows Mobile over something like a power adapter, which you could buy at any store for maybe 10 euro, this really is the wrong the device for you now. Sean, Sean, Sean, all the trolling here has made you humor-impaired :) This was obviously (and as confirmed on IRC) a parody of the kind of handholding demanded by Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and I do really agree that this is the wrong device _and_ community for _him_). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 09:30, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: I have a much more important question, however: will the Neo work with european electrons, or will I need to import asian ones? If I'd need to import a new set of electrons to use for charging my battery every time it runs out, it'd become very expensive very soon. If, on the other hand, I could use my regular wall outlet, the power would be free. You might need to buy a power (head) adapter depending on where you live. But this is what we all have to go through traveling around this world. Can anyone *OFFICIAL* give me any advice on this? If you don't do that within 10 minutes, I'll get a Windows Mobile phone instead. If you're seriously considering buying a Windows Mobile over something like a power adapter, which you could buy at any store for maybe 10 euro, this really is the wrong the device for you now. Hopefully we can better meet your requirements in September. Really guys, this is developers device now. It's for people who think Windows Mobile sucks. And we [all of us together] can do better ;-) -Sean I think you forgot to switch on your irony filter this morning ;o) I'm pretty sure that post was meant tongue-in-cheek as an example of an unrealistic customer support request at this stage... Cheers, Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I don't know about you guys, but even if I couldn't get a compatible plan, I'd probably buy the device anyway. A gorgeous, open Linux device backed by a community like this one? I think it's definitely worth the $350. On 3/14/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2007-03-13 at 15:21 -0400, Mike wrote: This is open source development. So we developers aren't making money here. I for, one am NOT willing to pay $350 to get a device that I'm not sure will work with whatever service I choose, and therefore that I'm not sure I can even develop for. Mike, GSM should work just about anywhere. Maybe you could just tell us where you want to use this device? Plus you're really arguing for no reason. This thread was _us_ asking _you_ for help getting WiFi into this phone ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
They are all funky in this regard. Having worked for a chip company before I can tell you they are very afraid of this. The issue with the way the architecture went, as I think I said before, is that more registers are exposed to the host because the chip only does the real time aspects of the protocol, the lower MAC, and the High level controller, and upper MAC, is actually in the driver This is different than the prism where they tried to make it look like an ethernet device. Believe me the Prism should have died a horrible death a couple of years before they actually did. The only thing that saved them was the fact that the consumer was immature and couldn't tell the difference this includes end user as well as system developer. Harris/Intersil/globespan aslo screwed my company by raising a lot of fud about 802.11g. Very short sighted... (I need someone to slap out of this here) Anyway, all modern chipsets follow this model, the one I got from AMD when they were in the business. TI and Marvell have Arms inside the MAC chip. This reduces the issues but you still have the issue of more registers being exposed to the chipset manufacturer's end user. This means whatever wacky way they want to use the chip has to be supported by someone. If you follow the logic of a chipset manufacturer it ultimately winds up to them having to support it; 1. they have the real intimate knowledge of how the chip works 2. if they do not use that knowledge then they don't sell chips. That intimate knowledge is a very limited resource in the FAE(s), but mostly in the engineering team which is working on trying to keep ahead of the other chip companies that are working on new differentiators for the chip, or the next gen chip. This is the bind that Sean is in. In my opinion, unless there is another company that can meet his requirements, the only real answer is to have an SDIO interface and let the end user/developer decide how to load a binary into the kernel from the chipset vendor. BTW take a look at Madwifi and see who actually is supporting it. OTOH Marvell is the hot chipset these days and they do have an interface that could expose less regs to the end user, the question is whether they are willing to put the effort into Linux. Which is what the HAL is doing in Madwifi. Can you get Marvell to support it? Marty Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 10:07:45 +1100 From: Grahame Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Sean, What about the Marvell® 88W8385 module used on the wifistix Open source drivers can be found at http://gumstix.com Cheers Grahame Jordan Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Dear Community, OpenMoko is built around the philosophy that far more knowledge exists outside the walls of a corporation than within. Internally, we're struggling with two issues. So we're throwing this out, hoping that some of you have can help us move past our current crossroads: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. If you're a vendor and want to work with us to GPL your driver, we'll give you lots of business -- and a free phone ;-) 2) We don't have enough UI / Application developers -- If anybody meets (or knows somebody who can meet) the following qualifications: * = 2 years experience with GTK * object oriented design and implementation w/ GObject * experience with writing GUI applications from scratch, * has software quality assets like: o writing maintainable and reusable code o refactoring o design patterns o identifying and extracting common application code into frameworks Familiarity with collaborative development tools such as: * bugtracker, * source control management, * wiki, * mailing lists is a necessity. We've love to talk with you! Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with links to your previous work and a resume if you have one. (The latter is nowhere near as important as the former.) Thanks in advance for any help! -Sean -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gjordan.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/attachments/20070314/0e25e775/gjordan.vcf
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
I did some research on Nanoradio for my employer. They have very good specs, actually the best I've seen for power. I'm not sure how mature the product is. Nowhere does it mention opensource. Marty Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:50:49 -0800 From: Steve Bibayoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, On 3/13/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. Have you guys looked into Nanoradio? Specifically NRX700/2 : http://www.nanoradio.com/?NavID=278 Haven't worked (or actually talked) w/ them, but stumbled across them when working on another project. Seem small, so they may work w/ Free Software technologist. I have a longer list some where, just need to dig it up, will post it when I find it. Steve ps. Sorry to send directly to you(Sean), I'm not subscribed to the community list and not sure if this would get through. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
community issues (was: Crossroads)
This Gogole training video showed up in slashdot a few days ago, but might be worth reposting here. The title is a bit on the nasty side, but the message itself is much more positive. Folks in other countries might want to edit the url's .com to point to their regional google and get a bit faster response. Even though the google page has one of those an infernal *.flv files embedded, the downloadable mp4 file (the one marked video ipod/sony psp) plays just fine in mplayer. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 As to my two cents, and I'm still not sure how a wifi hardware selection question lead to a thread of gsm data plans (and with no subject-line change to boot!). Gsm data plan selection is somewhat overwhelming for first time buyer and there is no way that someone looking through the on-line archives is going to spot the discussion from the subject line. As a result the same question is going to get asked on the list more frequently than it would otherwise. That was the first cent's worth of my two cents. The second cent is that many folks here are looking at the developer's phone as simply a way of getting the consumer's phone 6 months early. These people obviously have never used early rev. engineering hardware. My experience is that it normally has plenty of hardware bugs that can't be easily fixed by the software engineer. Sometimes a if the bug is simple a few blue-wires and a few trace cuts are all that is needed, but I can't imagine it will be practical for hundreds of phones located in the far corners of the world. I think developers buying the engineering samples should think of them as essentially disposable with a shelf-life of 6 months. Once the consumer device is out software tends to stop supporting some of the weirder quirks of the early engineering hardware and that hardware rev is essentially orphaned. -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: GSM should work just about anywhere. Maybe you could just tell us where you want to use this device? Plus you're really arguing for no reason. This thread was _us_ asking _you_ for help getting WiFi into this phone ;-) -Sean Sean, I did that in my thread What mobile service..., I'm in NYC. What I'm arguing for is that you either get wifi on the device OR provide official info about what service plan will work for the device. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 08:01:08AM -0700, Martin Lefkowitz wrote: In my opinion, unless there is another company that can meet his requirements, the only real answer is to have an SDIO interface and let the end user/developer decide how to load a binary into the kernel from the chipset vendor. No way. We will never encourage our users to use legally questionable code. As soon as you opt for proprietary bits in the kernel, you enter a _meassy_ and nasty legal grey area. Please don't start a GPL / Licensing / binary-only lkm debate here. This has been discussed over and over at other times. I doubt you will find any reasonably technically and legally skilled person who would ever claim tha having proprietary kernel modules is a well-defined legal area. This kind of decision is what differentiates us from [almost] all the other vendors out there. If we cannot find a 100% GPL compatible WiFi solution, we will not have WiFi at all in our devices. This is sad, but we're not compromising on this. Now if some of you ask yourself: But you're having binary-only GPS code! My answer is: 1) it's in userspace, and thus not a legal issue at all. Nobody argues that running Oracle on top of a Linux kernel is a GPL violation. No grey arae. Clear-cut and 100% legal. 2) it's not required to make the phone wokr. GPS is definitely a add-on feature, a gimmick. Not as important as communication channels like GSM, Bluetooth, WiFi. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2007 at 03:21:06PM -0400, Mike wrote: What this has to do with wifi is covered in my last email. If I can't have wifi on the device, then I have to rely on the mobile service provider. If I have to rely on the mobile service provider, then I have to figure out what plan to get. If we have to do that, then the openmoko people shouldn't leave us entirely on our own. If they're going to sell worldwide then they should FIGURE OUT worldwide. [you are completely forgetting about bluetooth!] It is by all means not the task of a device manufacturer to give you recommendations on what kind of calling plan for data services you should subscribe in your particular country of residence. Firstly, it's none of our business. Secondly, there are just way too many countries, most of which have many operators, each of which has incredibly complex calling plans, changing rapidly. I don't believe that a small effort of a hand full of developers (like openmoko is) can ever reliably track that kind of information. Thanks Harald, that settles it for me, then. If what you say is true, I can't imagine what the business case is for expensive third-party phones. Here's a $350 device, good luck getting it to be useful. Pick a two year contract and cross your fingers. I don't know how anyone makes the decision to buy such a device. At first I thought this was only a temporary problem in the development phase, but from why you're saying, neither the openmoko people nor fic will give that info out even in september either, right? The general public will be left to to rumors, I heard this device will work on this plan... maybe. I had thought this would be like other third party electronics- like third party phone chargers for example- which do specify (and guarantee) what they'll work with. I guess not. Thanks Harald, I'm out, m ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Call-for-WiFi (was Re: Crossroads)
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 16:34:48 Harald Welte wrote: I've added this (and some more info) to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko I've added a link to http://www.zcomax.com/1mbfile/G%20product/XG-880M_specification%20.pdf to the wiki. prplague on #openmoko is working on a device with S3C24XX and that module. Sizewise, it seems ok. Power envelope I couldn't really find. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Crossroads
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: 14 March 2007 15:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org; Scott Rushforth Subject: Re: Crossroads Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: GSM should work just about anywhere. Maybe you could just tell us where you want to use this device? Plus you're really arguing for no reason. This thread was _us_ asking _you_ for help getting WiFi into this phone ;-) -Sean Sean, I did that in my thread What mobile service..., I'm in NYC. What I'm arguing for is that you either get wifi on the device OR provide official info about what service plan will work for the device. Mike, First of all you're about 6 months to early with your argument; this is still a developer device (one I'll be buying at release time). Why do you argue for wifi on the device /OR/ official service plan info to be released in a thread that indicated that the core team are attempting to put wifi on the device as it is! This thread was started with a shout out for some assistance from the community in tracking down suitable hardware for such a task, NOT a question if wifi should be added or not!!! Service plans are a moot point at this stage of development and have been answered by this community as best they can. Have you tried speaking to nokia or sony-erricson tech support or cust services to demand that they tell you which service plan you should buy? Please try to remember that in general the GSM model allows one bunch of companies to make phones and another bunch of companies to run networks those phones will run on by all adhering to a particular standard. Go to your local GSM provider and try something like hi, I'd like to be able to use your network to phone people with my GSM phone but also browse the internet/check my mail using GPRS please. If that doesn't get you overloaded with the 30 price plans available this month. If it's anything like the market in the UK then going in 3-4 months later there'll be a new set of names and slight variations on each package. If you're looking for a simple phone to by that will work out of the box with everything set up then go buy a phone bundled with a contract and be happy about it. I'll go out on a limb here and say (albeit a fairly stout branch) and say. Neo1973 will work on any standard GSM network and via the GPRS component will be able to get access to the internet. Graham Auld ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
The Prism is not getting much traction in the market. The company has been bounced around from owner to owner. I would think that using the prism in a design would be very risky because the chip may not be around for the life of the product. Marty Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:55:49 +0100 From: Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] Although it has a closed firmware, I found this announcement http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-April/003575.html with no replies on the maemo mailing list. Maybe someone who is faster in than than me should try to get the driver working on his nokia770. (The packages mentioned in the announcement do not work on current maemo, because of the older EABI) If you are a vendor, trying to build hardware that you have to provide support for, then the last thing you want to do is to use a chipset with software that 1) the software developers don't have hardware docs 2) the chipset manufacturer has no idea about your driver software and will not give the device manufacturer any docs either It's a complete nightmare where nobody can help you and provide any kind of acceptable support level. Thus, from a business standpoint, not bearable. Also, even if the free driver authors (prism54-softmac in this case) would really have reversed the chip up to the point there is barely nothing that they don't know about it, I still would definitely like to prefer generating business to a chipset manufacturer who understands the Linux community and provides GPL'd drivers and/or documentation. Cheers, -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: Thanks Harald, I'm out, I think I speak for us all when I say, Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now if some of you ask yourself: But you're having binary-only GPS code! My answer is: 1) it's in userspace, and thus not a legal issue at all. Nobody argues that running Oracle on top of a Linux kernel is a GPL violation. No grey arae. Clear-cut and 100% legal. 2) it's not required to make the phone wokr. GPS is definitely a add-on feature, a gimmick. Not as important as communication channels like GSM, Bluetooth, WiFi. If kernel vs. userspace is the issue, can't the wifi code by moved into userspace and register frobbing done via ioctl's? Sure it is somewhat distasteful to have all those context switches, but it does bring some advantages too. Writing an open driver replacement becomes a simpler task when the wifi code can be run under normal userland gdb. -wolfgang -- Wolfgang S. Rupprechthttp://www.wsrcc.com/wolfgang/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:52:56 +0100, jeff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Imre Kaloz wrote: Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) From common_atheros_sdiostack.patch (in sdio-linux tarball): Any implementation of the Simplified Specification may require a license from the SD Card Association or other third parties. Any insight on may in this case? Thanks, -Jeff I would translate it as If you make an SD(IO) device based on the stack, the SD Card Association may demand money for the license to develope hardware for the specs. ;) Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 12:10:22PM -0400, Mike wrote: I had thought this would be like other third party electronics- like third party phone chargers for example- which do specify (and guarantee) what they'll work with. I guess not. I don't understand what is wrong about selling a device that has 1) FCC approval 2) GSM certification The whole point about having norms and standards is that you do _not_ have to talk to each and every vendor and/or operator, but that everyone just complies with those starndards, have stringend certification procedures, and ensure inter-vendor and cross-operator interoperability. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Wednesday 14 March 2007 17:10, Mike wrote: I had thought this would be like other third party electronics- like third party phone chargers for example- which do specify (and guarantee) what they'll work with. I guess not. Metaphorically speaking, you're looking at the wrong end of the charger here. There is no guarantee or official stance of the charger manufacturer which power company is or isn't able to provide service to your device (and under what legal conditions) from their power grid. It likely just says AC 110V. Same here, FIC just says that you need a x/y/z MHz GSM network. The other end of the charger which is specifically tied to the device and connects it to the network is the SIM card and I'm pretty sure FIC will guarantee that you will be able to put in a SIM card in the phone :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 09:51:37AM -0700, Martin Lefkowitz wrote: I disagree with that premise that it is a nasty legal area. Modules can be proprietary this is a fact. Not only have I been directly involved in the development of such, but have talked to people that did serious research on what is legal and what isn't. As you might be aware, I am myself heading the http://gpl-violations.org/ project, and in this process and function talking to many technical and legal experts in this area. And there is _nothing_ that is more of an indication of a grey area if * you can find many lawyers and scientific legal researchers pro and con * you cannot find any evidence anywhere on the world on any of this If it were not then everybody would have already sued everybody. I am doing my best. And I would have probably dealt with more than 120 cases (only a hand full had to go to court) if I didn't have this strange habit of doing actual development rather than just dealing with legal issues. it's only linksys that had to disclose their WRT54g code Whihc is obviously wrong and outdated information. I can almost guarantee you that no chip company is going to open themselves up to that. That is not the point. You can never sue somebody to release their proprietary source code. But you can halt their sales by halting them from further distributing a gpl infringing product. And I have hard evidence in my own hands that this works ;) -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Dnia środa, 14 marca 2007, Mike napisał: If what you say is true, I can't imagine what the business case is for expensive third-party phones. Here's a $350 device, good luck getting it to be useful. Pick a two year contract and cross your fingers. Expensive? Unlocked Nokia 6280 costs same price. Linux powered PDA are even more expensive. For me 350 USD was not small amount of cash but for that kind of device it is quite normal price. I don't know how anyone makes the decision to buy such a device. My current phone was about 300-350 USD when it came to market. My previous one was 400-500 USD. OK, I got both for much less due to signing contract with mobile operator but if I would like to get them from normal market then I would have to pay. Now you can buy FIC Neo1973 only on normal market which means 350 USD. If you want it cheaper then wait until September when it will be available with mobile contracts (which ones is currently unknown and FIC/OpenMoko are discussing such things with operators but no info before mass market phase). But for some people this is hard to understand as you already shown by your mails and taking over thread. I hope that you will skip developer phase so I will not have to read/ignore your emails. I'm out, Uf. one troll less -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:51:37 +0100, Martin Lefkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree with that premise that it is a nasty legal area. Modules can be proprietary this is a fact. Grey area, but hard to argue until they use any GPL code or symbol. If it were not then everybody would have already sued everybody. So far it's only linksys that had to disclose their WRT54g code. I can almost guarantee you that no chip company is going to open themselves up to that. There is just too much money at stake in the development process. You can do it right, have a firmware and a GPL'ed driver. The firmware holds the IP, the GPL'ed driver helps you get more interest and support in the FOSS community. If you want to make it better, make your firmware easily redistributable - and if you want to make it really right, don't save that $0.1 on the small flash to store the firmware on the device itself. I can understand why you would want to not have hardware built into the platform that has this issue. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. But, I can not understand why you wouldn't want an SDIO slot that would allow the user to make the choice. As Sean explained, they don't want to redesign the cases and everything. It can happen for later designs, and I'm pretty sure it will actually happen for those. Also what was mentioned earlier about the SDIO stack -- this is very immature software and hardware. The SDIO hardware market has not shaken out yet, which is risk, but coming up with a linux based sdio wedge for a particular piece of HW may go a long way to ensuring that that chip is one of the winners. Same was said about WiFi a few years ago. But I can't agree more on your last sentence - and honestly, I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons Atheros donated the SDIO stack and a true GPL'ed driver for the FOSS community. Cheers, Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
I was not aware of your work in the legal area. It sounds like you are biting the hand that feeds you. If you succeed in getting companies afraid to be adding modules to a kernel for fear of having to expose their detailed register layout to the public either by documentation or code you will kill embedded linux. Then you can buy your sticker Long live BSD, or worse windows (mobile). Marty P.S. my understanding is that the linksys issue is actually what happened. How they dealt with it going forward is another issue. Harald Welte wrote: On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 09:51:37AM -0700, Martin Lefkowitz wrote: I disagree with that premise that it is a nasty legal area. Modules can be proprietary this is a fact. Not only have I been directly involved in the development of such, but have talked to people that did serious research on what is legal and what isn't. As you might be aware, I am myself heading the http://gpl-violations.org/ project, and in this process and function talking to many technical and legal experts in this area. And there is _nothing_ that is more of an indication of a grey area if * you can find many lawyers and scientific legal researchers pro and con * you cannot find any evidence anywhere on the world on any of this If it were not then everybody would have already sued everybody. I am doing my best. And I would have probably dealt with more than 120 cases (only a hand full had to go to court) if I didn't have this strange habit of doing actual development rather than just dealing with legal issues. it's only linksys that had to disclose their WRT54g code Whihc is obviously wrong and outdated information. I can almost guarantee you that no chip company is going to open themselves up to that. That is not the point. You can never sue somebody to release their proprietary source code. But you can halt their sales by halting them from further distributing a gpl infringing product. And I have hard evidence in my own hands that this works ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
Dnia środa, 14 marca 2007, Imre Kaloz napisał: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:07:45 +0100, Grahame Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] What about the Marvell® 88W8385 module used on the wifistix Open source drivers can be found at http://gumstix.com No open source drivers for that either. If you check the Makefile of the wireless driver [1], you can see that they are using a binary-only driver for 6 months now [2]. They provide binary driver built from Marvell provided sources. Older version of sources are available for download on SparkLAN website. No information about license inside. OLPC project use 88w8388 connected to USB bus. Holger Schurig works on adding 88w8385 support into their driver (which evolved from one of version of that 'no license' one). From my informations this chipset can also be connected via SPI and there are companies which produce it in SMT form. http://www.embeddedworks.net/newsite/WLAN/oem_SMD_80211g.html lists few modules which are 9.6 (L) x 9.6 (W) x 1.7 (H) [mm] and support 802.11g -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant We are the Knights who say: MOVE.L USP,A1 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I just briefly took a look at the chip, and yes this does look different. They are doing what Marvell is doing, and what TI did, by finally embedding a controller on the device side. How much of the MAC is on that side is a good question. I assume they are still using the host for Scatter Gather. Marty Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:31:31 +0100 From: Imre Kaloz [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:52:56 +0100, jeff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Imre Kaloz wrote: Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) From common_atheros_sdiostack.patch (in sdio-linux tarball): Any implementation of the Simplified Specification may require a license from the SD Card Association or other third parties. Any insight on may in this case? Thanks, -Jeff I would translate it as If you make an SD(IO) device based on the stack, the SD Card Association may demand money for the license to develope hardware for the specs. ;) Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
Martin Lefkowitz writes: I was not aware of your work in the legal area. It sounds like you are biting the hand that feeds you. Please, I beg you, don't let this turn into a GPL license/closed firmware/other legal stuff thread. As has already been pointed out, these issues are debated daily, to death, elsewhere. Having said that, my opinion is... I'm going to follow my own advice here and shut up and not continue the debate :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 10:12:11AM -0700, Martin Lefkowitz wrote: I was not aware of your work in the legal area. It sounds like you are biting the hand that feeds you. I am not biting the hand that feeds me, but I am biting companies who knowingly and willingly disrespect both copyright law and the ideals/goals/concepts of the very people who wrote the code that the respective companies use on/with their hardware (GNU/Linux). If you succeed in getting companies afraid to be adding modules to a kernel for fear of having to expose their detailed register layout to the public either by documentation or code you will kill embedded linux. I am not trying to make them afraid. I am merely reminding them of their obligations. Obligations to which they have voluntarily subjected themselves by agreeing to license the Linux kernel (and other software) under the GNU GPL. You cannot get the freedom of Linux, while taking that freedom away from others (your users). It's about equilibrium. To give and take. Mutual sustainable development. Then you can buy your sticker Long live BSD, or worse windows (mobile). About which is nothing wrong at all! If vendors cannot cleanly comply with the GPL and copyright law (much of the derivative works issues are generic copyright law issues, not at all GPL related!), then they either have to change their products, or have to just go to *BSD or proprietary operating systems which allow their products (combination of driver hand hardware design choices) to work legally. I have no problem with this at all. Linux adoption is not a goal/end in itself. It's of no use to have a Linux kernel plastered with tons of proprietary code all over the place. Where would be the technical benefit of such a product? None at all. No way to fix bugs, no way to update your kernel, no way to decide if you can trust the code, etc. So my point of all of this is: Why do we have GPL licensed drivers or hardware documentation on some hardware at all? Why can e.g. Samsung afford to completely open the documentation to their mpeg4 hardware encoding/decoding engines in their later 24xx SoC's, while others think it is the most improtant business secret? Why can Marvell have a GPL licensed driver for AR6K? The design of your hardware determines what you have to reveal in the driver. So eventually, if you want to sell your product with drivers for a GPL licensed operating system, you might actually consider this whilst doing the hardware design. Just look at all the mess with AR5k just due to the fact that regulatory requirements are enforced in software rather than hardware. By using hardware that implements those things in it's own hardware/firmware, you can avoid any problems with free sofrware drivers down the road. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
* Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070314 19:02]: On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 12:10:22PM -0400, Mike wrote: I had thought this would be like other third party electronics- like third party phone chargers for example- which do specify (and guarantee) what they'll work with. I guess not. I don't understand what is wrong about selling a device that has 1) FCC approval 2) GSM certification The whole point about having norms and standards is that you do _not_ have to talk to each and every vendor and/or operator, but that everyone just complies with those starndards, have stringend certification procedures, and ensure inter-vendor and cross-operator interoperability. Well, US carriers joined the GSM game late, and they seem to keep the endusers even more ignorant then their collegues in Europe ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Call-for-WiFi (was Re: Crossroads)
On 3/14/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We absolutely need chipset (or even SMT module using the chipset) specifically designed for the power and size constraints of mobile phones or other equipment such as portable media players. Can you give some numbers for the power consumption and size? /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Wed, 2007-03-14 at 12:57 +0200, Mikko Rauhala wrote: ke, 2007-03-14 kello 16:30 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz kirjoitti: If you're seriously considering buying a Windows Mobile over something like a power adapter, which you could buy at any store for maybe 10 euro, this really is the wrong the device for you now. Sean, Sean, Sean, all the trolling here has made you humor-impaired :) This was obviously (and as confirmed on IRC) a parody of the kind of handholding demanded by Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] (and I do really agree that this is the wrong device _and_ community for _him_). Hehe...you guys got me ;-) This past week I've been so busy that I've just been on autopilot answering emails. My mind was obviously elsewhere. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Crossroads
Dear Community, OpenMoko is built around the philosophy that far more knowledge exists outside the walls of a corporation than within. Internally, we're struggling with two issues. So we're throwing this out, hoping that some of you have can help us move past our current crossroads: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. If you're a vendor and want to work with us to GPL your driver, we'll give you lots of business -- and a free phone ;-) 2) We don't have enough UI / Application developers -- If anybody meets (or knows somebody who can meet) the following qualifications: * = 2 years experience with GTK * object oriented design and implementation w/ GObject * experience with writing GUI applications from scratch, * has software quality assets like: o writing maintainable and reusable code o refactoring o design patterns o identifying and extracting common application code into frameworks Familiarity with collaborative development tools such as: * bugtracker, * source control management, * wiki, * mailing lists is a necessity. We've love to talk with you! Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with links to your previous work and a resume if you have one. (The latter is nowhere near as important as the former.) Thanks in advance for any help! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Dnia wtorek, 13 marca 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz napisał: OpenMoko is built around the philosophy that far more knowledge exists outside the walls of a corporation than within. Internally, we're struggling with two issues. So we're throwing this out, hoping that some of you have can help us move past our current crossroads: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers Ralink Technology has chipset with GPL driver (outside of mainline kernel, also in -mm kernel iirc). Zydas also have GPL driver (in mainline kernel). Ralink chipset takes 40mA less then Zydas. Both are 802.11g and can be connected over USB. I do not know can they be connected over SPI. IIRC both are 3.3V so no need for +5V at all. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Warning: Dates in calendar are closer than they appear. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:51:00 +0100, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Sean, 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. If you're a vendor and want to work with us to GPL your driver, we'll give you lots of business -- and a free phone ;-) Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) Regards, Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Intel's laptop-oriented chips have GPL drivers, albeit with binary modules - but not *kernel* binary modules. The 3945abg driver uses a binary userspace daemon and a binary on-chip microcode: http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/ The 2200bg/2945abg driver relies on a binary on-chip firmware: http://ipw2200.sourceforge.net/ The latter one is in the mainline kernel too. D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) Do you know if the on-chip MAC is a full MAC? Last time I used an Atheros-based Wifi card (for an AP application) the predominant Linux driver - Madwifi - relied on binary in-kernel modules (ath_hal). Is that still the case (for this chip)? Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Imre Kaloz wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 17:51:00 +0100, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Sean, 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. If you're a vendor and want to work with us to GPL your driver, we'll give you lots of business -- and a free phone ;-) Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) From common_atheros_sdiostack.patch (in sdio-linux tarball): Any implementation of the Simplified Specification may require a license from the SD Card Association or other third parties. Any insight on may in this case? Thanks, -Jeff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
2007/3/13, dimitris [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Intel's laptop-oriented chips have GPL drivers, albeit with binary modules - but not *kernel* binary modules. The 3945abg driver uses a binary userspace daemon and a binary on-chip microcode: http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/ The 2200bg/2945abg driver relies on a binary on-chip firmware: http://ipw2200.sourceforge.net/ The latter one is in the mainline kernel too. D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community A better option would be to use one of the chipset that has runtime firmware that (even) OpenBSD is allowed to distribute. You'll find a good article on the problems with binary firmwares on http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/293 For a round up: atu (4) - Atmel AT76C50x USB IEEE 802.11b wireless network device ral (4) - Ralink Technology IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device (2nd gen 802.11 Ralink) rum (4) - Ralink Technology USB IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device zyd (4) - Zydas ZD1211 USB IEEE 802.11b/g wireless network deviceMarcin Juszkiewicz already mentioned some of them. Hans ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tuesday 13 March 2007 18:49:17 dimitris wrote: Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? I would very much welcome a standard SD slot anyhow. SD cards are available in bigger sizes than MicroSD. Possibly even better, retain the microsd slot for storage and add an fullsize SDIO one for well whatever people want ;) pgplCzTTQBG7o.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I don't know much about the intel one except that I wouldn't be surprised it downloaded the firmware into the chipset. I Broadcom also does this as well as TI. There is an opensource version of the TI driver. Getting attention from a Chipset manufacturer is another story. Marty Message: 7 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:38:38 -0700 From: dimitris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Intel's laptop-oriented chips have GPL drivers, albeit with binary modules - but not *kernel* binary modules. The 3945abg driver uses a binary userspace daemon and a binary on-chip microcode: http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/ The 2200bg/2945abg driver relies on a binary on-chip firmware: http://ipw2200.sourceforge.net/ The latter one is in the mainline kernel too. D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:49:17 +0100, dimitris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Atheros AR6K - check http://atheros.com/pt/AR6001Bulletins.htm , and for the fully GPL'ed driver and SDIO stack please check http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdio-linux/ I hardly think you will find a better alternative ;) Last time I used an Atheros-based Wifi card (for an AP application) the predominant Linux driver - Madwifi - relied on binary in-kernel modules (ath_hal). Is that still the case (for this chip)? Check the urls, the AR6001 has nothing to do with the AR5000 series ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I don't know much about the intel one except that I wouldn't be surprised it downloaded the firmware into the chipset. I Broadcom also does this as well as TI. There is an opensource version of the TI driver. Getting attention from a Chipset manufacturer is another story. Marty Message: 7 Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:38:38 -0700 From: dimitris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Intel's laptop-oriented chips have GPL drivers, albeit with binary modules - but not *kernel* binary modules. The 3945abg driver uses a binary userspace daemon and a binary on-chip microcode: http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/ The 2200bg/2945abg driver relies on a binary on-chip firmware: http://ipw2200.sourceforge.net/ The latter one is in the mainline kernel too. D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Tuesday 13 March 2007 18:49:17 dimitris wrote: Sean, given the uncertainty surrounding Wifi drivers, would an externally-accessible SDIO slot be a better step for the next hw revision? I would very much welcome a standard SD slot anyhow. SD cards are available in bigger sizes than MicroSD. Possibly even better, retain the microsd slot for storage and add an fullsize SDIO one for well whatever people want ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Don't know how much re-work that would require, but I really like that idea. I already have 2GB and 4GB SD cards. I'm not overly thrilled about having to use a different format. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tuesday 13 March 2007 19:22:08 you wrote: Don't know how much re-work that would require, but I really like that idea. I already have 2GB and 4GB SD cards. I'm not overly thrilled about having to use a different format. SDIO has one disadvantage: the cards are rather pricey. The Spectec card is the cheapest by far and still retails for 75EUR in Switzerland... Ralink based USB Sticks are less than one third of that. pgp2rd5SPEQLH.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:03:48 +0100, Hans Cats [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/3/13, dimitris [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Intel's laptop-oriented chips have GPL drivers, albeit with binary modules - but not *kernel* binary modules. The 3945abg driver uses a binary userspace daemon and a binary on-chip microcode: http://ipw3945.sourceforge.net/ The 2200bg/2945abg driver relies on a binary on-chip firmware: http://ipw2200.sourceforge.net/ The latter one is in the mainline kernel too. A better option would be to use one of the chipset that has runtime firmware that (even) OpenBSD is allowed to distribute. You'll find a good article on the problems with binary firmwares on http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/293 For a round up: atu (4) - Atmel AT76C50x USB IEEE 802.11b wireless network device ral (4) - Ralink Technology IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device (2nd gen 802.11 Ralink) rum (4) - Ralink Technology USB IEEE 802.11a/b/g wireless network device zyd (4) - Zydas ZD1211 USB IEEE 802.11b/g wireless network deviceMarcin Juszkiewicz already mentioned some of them. Hans The PCI based devices (Intel and the first Ralink) would harldy fit into a phone both physically and power-usage wise. Regarding the USB ones, the Atmel is pretty much EOL'ed as far as I know, and the driver for the others are not stable nor too portable. And we didn't speak about wireless characterisks, sensivity and other lower priority stuff. Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:26:16 +0100, Eric Heinemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My only concern with a full SDIO slot is the bulk that it would require. One thought could be to have 2 microSD slots since there is a microSD WiFi card (http://www.spectec.com.tw/sdw823.htm). I would think it conforms to standard SDIO spec, but I do not know. -Eric Those don't have GPL'ed driver and it's unlikely that they will have one, ever. Also, a SDIO based wireless chip can be placed on the board, so the device doesn't have to have a full sized SD slot (and this way it will take up way less space, look at http://atheros.com/pt/images/AR6001X_BGA.gif ). Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fwd: Re: Crossroads
[the reply to issue bit me another time ;)] On Tuesday 13 March 2007 17:51:00 Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. Well for starters it would help if you could give a somewhat more concise requirement ;) Aside of the aforementioned Ralink and Zydas (which USB works easily with Linux and doesn't even seem to need a firmware blob [1]). http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/293/ (posted on 2006-12-27) Atmel: For some things we do require non-disclosure agreements, but we are generally able to provide the API documentation and the firmware driver interface specifications for our hardware. As to why others may not be able to do this... well, our software is developed in-house, but others might out outsource their driver development to third-party companies, so they may not even have the documentation that a programmer requests. We usually provide driver source code, and we try to put it under the GPL if possible, so that's usually good enough if you want to write your own driver. If you want to see more than that, we generally require an NDA, or if you're an embedded customer, we provide reference platforms. Some of the Atmel drivers are even in 2.6.20 as is Zydas. Realtek and RAlink have similar statements of wanting to work with Linux vendors. And that investigation was done by someone who didnt actually want to buy anything. Realteks USB chips require 3.3V and 1.8V, 5V is tolerated for input. http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1PNid=24PFid=1Level=6Conn=5ProdID=36 they don't seem to support SPI. Realtek seems to think they are fit for use in phones and lists mobile phone as application area explicitely. Publically available data doesn't seem to list power consumption. Driver tarball on the site seems to consist of sources only. [1] I once looked at the driver tarball and didn't find it, in any case. It might still be hidden inside some variable deepdown in a source file. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Dnia wtorek, 13 marca 2007, Imre Kaloz napisał: Regarding the USB ones, the Atmel is pretty much EOL'ed as far as I know, and the driver for the others are not stable nor too portable. Not portable? There are users or ARM (Xscale, IOP) machines which use ralink and zydas dongles with their hardware... -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant You can logoff, but you can never leave. -- Nina Liedtke, CyberJoly Drim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:46:57 -0400 Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good to see things moving forward on the wifi issue. But, I was going to be a developer for this platform, but in light of my recent thread, and the lack of wifi support, I don't think I can, at least not until it's launched to the general public, which defeats the entire purpose of the developer release phase. It's because of the following: 1. The sheer quantity of information about finding a mobile provider with a data plan that will support the neo, as indicated by the useful responses to my recent thread. And the lack of certainty of that information. I think this will work. I appreciate those responses from non-openmoko people, because it's all we've got to go on. And that brings me to problem 2: 2. The fact that the openmoko guys have apparently just washed their hands of the entire issue of which services will work, and aren't providing any information on the site (and very little on the wiki). (At least start with the big countries/regions). Your device is great, guys, your platform sounds great too. But you can't leave us all on our own when it comes to getting the thing on the net. Your neo is a $350 doorstop without a working service provider. 3. If there was wifi on the device this wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue, obviously, because we wouldn't need to rely on the provider to get on the net. Either give us detailed information on which providers and plans will work, or get wifi on the device. Those are the two roads at the crossroads. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Not sure what this has to do with Wifi? I think part of the issue is that the openmoko is a GSM device, and GSM is available all over the world. I bet the majority of the company (FIC), and current developers are probably not even in the same country you are. (i have no clue). So especially in this first developer phase, I think its fair and understandable that developers and interested individuals do their own research and experimentation to find out how they will make it work for them, and contribute that back to the community. Let's face it, the device is in its very early form, and a lot of things are not going to be very polished it seems. I for one am willing to pay the 350, and also willing to check my account status with cingular online every few days to see what my usage will look like. I think if one wants a more polished, internet capable device, hopefully this community will help that happen by September. But it will take a community, research, dedication, and time from many individuals. We are at the beginning. Cheers, and I can't wait for phase 1. -Scott ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Scott Rushforth wrote: ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Not sure what this has to do with Wifi? I think part of the issue is that the openmoko is a GSM device, and GSM is available all over the world. I bet the majority of the company (FIC), and current developers are probably not even in the same country you are. (i have no clue). So especially in this first developer phase, I think its fair and understandable that developers and interested individuals do their own research and experimentation to find out how they will make it work for them, and contribute that back to the community. Let's face it, the device is in its very early form, and a lot of things are not going to be very polished it seems. I for one am willing to pay the 350, and also willing to check my account status with cingular online every few days to see what my usage will look like. What this has to do with wifi is covered in my last email. If I can't have wifi on the device, then I have to rely on the mobile service provider. If I have to rely on the mobile service provider, then I have to figure out what plan to get. If we have to do that, then the openmoko people shouldn't leave us entirely on our own. If they're going to sell worldwide then they should FIGURE OUT worldwide. This is open source development. So we developers aren't making money here. I for, one am NOT willing to pay $350 to get a device that I'm not sure will work with whatever service I choose, and therefore that I'm not sure I can even develop for. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:00:14 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dnia wtorek, 13 marca 2007, Imre Kaloz napisał: Regarding the USB ones, the Atmel is pretty much EOL'ed as far as I know, and the driver for the others are not stable nor too portable. Not portable? There are users or ARM (Xscale, IOP) machines which use ralink and zydas dongles with their hardware... ...and they suffer from the same problems since the vendor code-drop. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the work the rt2x00 guys are doing, but there will be quite some time before that driver will work reliable - and it's not their fault, they had to base the whole work on the vendor driver, not actual datasheets. Regarding the ZyDAS chip, probably you either mean the 802.11b version, which is EOL'ed and has a clean and nice driver, or the 802.11b/g one, which has currently 3 different drivers with different bugs. Oh, mea culpa, most of the ZyDAS portability problems only affect big endian systems ;) Imre ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Jonathon Suggs wrote: I HIGHLY doubt (I'd actually be willing to bet) that the Neo is incapable of working with the US carriers. Now, that doesn't mean that it will be easy in the first few weeks/months of the developers edition of the device, but it is not a hardware limitation. So, don't worry about whether or not you will be able to get onto the network...you will. On which plan!??! Which plan can I get on the network with and which can I not? There's a big different between a $9.99/mo plan and a $39.99/mo plan. I don't want to become a neo developer if it's going to cost me an additional $480/year beyond the initial device cost. This whole don't worry about it, you can get on somehow crap is absurd! It just may require a little elbow grease to get it working. However, if you actually did read the wiki, the developers edition is NOT meant for non-technical users, or users that can't handle bugs. Just to clarify, I'm betting that the Neo WILL be able to get onto the networks via GPRS. I know there is a lot of discussion, but GSM and GPRS are standardized protocols. Therefore, if the NEO hardware is able to implement these standards, then it WILL be able to get onto the network (which I'm willing to bet that it does). Sorry to be condescending, in that last email, but it was written in a somewhat arrogant tone. So, please no bad blood on the mail list. Bottom line, you WILL be able to use the Neo on GPRS networks in the US. My other email has the plans that will work. Again, they may take some additional work to get up and running, but eventually it will work and will be a much more user-friendly experience. But if you want a phone during the developers phase, then don't count on it happening within a specific timetable unless you are willing to do the work yourself. Johnathan, it's not as simple as just a GPRS network in the US. See my thread What mobile service to get. There are 12 data plans offered by cingular. Different prices. Some of them have Blackberry in the title. Can neo work with those? How do you know? After all, it's a GPRS network. As I said in my original response in this thread, the sheer volume of information, and the tentative way everyone presented it in my thread, indicates that finding a mobile plan is, in fact, not simple, and I SHOULD worry about it. The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
El Tuesday 13 March 2007 22:10:03 Mike escribió: Johnathan, it's not as simple as just a GPRS network in the US. See my thread What mobile service to get. There are 12 data plans offered by cingular. Different prices. Some of them have Blackberry in the title. Can neo work with those? How do you know? After all, it's a GPRS network. As I said in my original response in this thread, the sheer volume of information, and the tentative way everyone presented it in my thread, indicates that finding a mobile plan is, in fact, not simple, and I SHOULD worry about it. The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same. I'm sure that your provider can do a better work at it, just call them and ask. I called Orange this afternoon an, at least here in Spain, the plan names don't matter. You can get the Blackberry Foo and Windows Mobile Bar plans without a specific device, they don't care. In fact, they have a interesting Blackberry labeled plan which offers unlimited POP and IMAP traffic to your server (you need to give them the ip when you sign the contract). I've started thinking of setting up a proxy listening on port 110 and configuring the Neo for using it for all the internet traffic[1], so I can get unlimited internet access for 12 €/mo. Regards, Alberto [1] http://httppc.sourceforge.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
2007/3/13, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same. We, others, don't need babysitting. Especially we don't expect Asian hardware manufacturer will provide any information about our local (EU or US) GSM services and pricing. We can read, do we? -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Rod Whitby wrote: I can't believe this thread. Anyone who is going to be a phone developer should be able to do their own research on phone plans. With the attitude being displaying (I'm out and advising others to do the same), I wonder what the reaction would be to a P1 device with bugs in it. Anyone with an attitude of OpenMoko must spoon feed me everything should probably wait for September ... Sheesh! -- Rod -Original Message- The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Agreed. And since Mike couldn't read my other post that had this exact same information, I will post it one more time...just for him. This time with a little more detail. Cingular - SmartPhone Connect or Data Connect will work T-Mobile - Can't find the exact details, but you can sign up for a voice plan, then add on a data plan as well...those data plans will work with the Neo. Does that help? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I don't see what plan you should be getting has anything really to do with Openmoko, other than helpful people relaying their experiences with data plans in the USA. Regardless of what phone you get you still have to navigate through the different plans and what they mean. If you think OpenMoko is going to open a kiosk in a mall because you said so, your living in a fantasy world. Why don't you collect all the information that came on this email list and post it to the Wiki, or FAQ? Marty What this has to do with wifi is covered in my last email. If I can't have wifi on the device, then I have to rely on the mobile service provider. If I have to rely on the mobile service provider, then I have to figure out what plan to get. If we have to do that, then the openmoko people shouldn't leave us entirely on our own. If they're going to sell worldwide then they should FIGURE OUT worldwide. This is open source development. So we developers aren't making money here. I for, one am NOT willing to pay $350 to get a device that I'm not sure will work with whatever service I choose, and therefore that I'm not sure I can even develop for. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Jonathon Suggs wrote: Mike wrote: SmartPhone Connect and Data Connect ONLY? All t-mobile data plans will work? All? Are you with the openmoko project or is your advice conjecture? Is your advice official? This is my point. I would shut up since on this subthread, I look like the only one with the problem. But if you read my What mobile plan... thread, you'd find others with similar questions and confusion. First of all, if you can't accept help from anyone other than and official OpenMoko developer, then you probably should not be a part of this community. We will make things work together by helping each other. There are only a few official OpenMoko developers, but there are many of us here in the community that will give you a hand if you will allow us. That said, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO HELP YOU! (It's amazing that I have to beg you for permission to help you). Johnathon let me phrase it like this- I love the help of the open source community, I'm a part of it myself. But when it comes to whether or not I spend $350 plus an officially-unknown monthly price, and likely with a two year contract, then yea, I want big official advice with a golden seal of approval on a silver platter with a company logo in a spotlight and smiling showgirls on either side. You talk about it like you're putting mobile service advice in the same category as advice for debugging my code. I don't need official people to debug my code, but I DO need someone official to tell me how much it's going to cost me to develop for this platform, before I start signing two year contracts with providers. The rest of your email is great thanks much, I'll add it to my (growing) notes file on service plans for the neo, m ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: SmartPhone Connect and Data Connect ONLY? All t-mobile data plans will work? All? Are you with the openmoko project or is your advice conjecture? Is your advice official? This is my point. I would shut up since on this subthread, I look like the only one with the problem. But if you read my What mobile plan... thread, you'd find others with similar questions and confusion. First of all, if you can't accept help from anyone other than and official OpenMoko developer, then you probably should not be a part of this community. We will make things work together by helping each other. There are only a few official OpenMoko developers, but there are many of us here in the community that will give you a hand if you will allow us. That said, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO HELP YOU! (It's amazing that I have to beg you for permission to help you). T-Mobile http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/T-Mobile_Data http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/default.aspx?plancategory=7 The stand-alone data plans are more expensive. I can only speak from my personal experience in that I pay $19.95/month for unlimited internet as an add-on to my voice plan. I'm sorry that I cannot find a direct link to an official site that says this is possible/available. However, I'm just speculating that it is still available. Cingular http://wiki.howardforums.com/index.php/Cingular_Data_Plans If you read, both Smartphone Connect and PDA Connect have unlimited access to wap.cingular.com I've looked into this pretty extensively as I was considering switching to Cingular (from T-Mobile) due to coverage at my house. I talked to an offical Cingular representative on the phone. He said that I could use my PocketPC on the Smartphone Connect plan. Therefore, in my non-official opinion, you should be able to use the Neo on the Smartphone Connect Plan. It costs $19.95/month. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Mike wrote: SmartPhone Connect and Data Connect ONLY? All t-mobile data plans will work? All? Are you with the openmoko project or is your advice conjecture? Is your advice official? This is my point. I would shut up since on this subthread, I look like the only one with the problem. But if you read my What mobile plan... thread, you'd find others with similar questions and confusion. Please consider that it may not be the actual question you are asking, but the way in which you are asking it. Threatening OpenMoko by saying that you will tell lots of other people to leave the project is not a useful way to get your question answered ... Saying that OpenMoko should have details of *all* phone plans *worldwide* well ahead of a September public release is also not very realistic. [Especially when in most (if not all) of the world GSM is GSM and the Neo will just work with whatever plan people already have for their existing GSM phone.] Remember that you are being given a *developer preview* of a future mobile phone that is being released in September. If it was a different company, you would not see *anything* other than a press release before September. You should temper your expectations accordingly ... I personally would prefer that OpenMoko staff continue working on development of the phone hardware and software, rather than spend months of time documenting and testing all the phone plans in the world, just so you don't have to do the legwork yourself. -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Marcel de Jong wrote: What exactly do you expect for an answer, Mike? I expect something official for an answer from someone official. Are you going to Nokia/Motorola/Sony-Ericsson to demand they tell you whether their GSM phones works with T-Mobile US / Cingular? Of course it will work with their GSM phones, since GSM and GPRS are standards. No, because Cingular can tell me that. They can't tell me that for the neo. I'll tell you, here in The Netherlands, we have PCMCIA cards with SIMcard slots. You put these PC-cards in your laptop, insert your SIMcard and you have GPRS internet access on your laptop. They can't stop you. In fact, they offer that service here in The Netherlands themselves. (I'm assuming you weren't directing that paragraph for me, I'm not in the netherlands). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
Rod Whitby wrote: Please consider that it may not be the actual question you are asking, but the way in which you are asking it. Threatening OpenMoko by saying that you will tell lots of other people to leave the project is not a useful way to get your question answered ... I disagree. Saying that OpenMoko should have details of *all* phone plans *worldwide* well ahead of a September public release is also not very realistic. I didn't say that exactly. [Especially when in most (if not all) of the world GSM is GSM and the Neo will just work with whatever plan people already have for their existing GSM phone.] Remember that you are being given a *developer preview* of a future mobile phone that is being released in September. If it was a different company, you would not see *anything* other than a press release before September. You should temper your expectations accordingly ... If it was a different company, it wouldn't be open source, and, thus, they wouldn't need a developer preview. It's a circular point. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
I have a much more important question, however: will the Neo work with european electrons, or will I need to import asian ones? If I'd need to import a new set of electrons to use for charging my battery every time it runs out, it'd become very expensive very soon. If, on the other hand, I could use my regular wall outlet, the power would be free. Can anyone *OFFICIAL* give me any advice on this? If you don't do that within 10 minutes, I'll get a Windows Mobile phone instead. ons 2007-03-14 klockan 08:17 +1030 skrev Rod Whitby: I can't believe this thread. Anyone who is going to be a phone developer should be able to do their own research on phone plans. With the attitude being displaying (I'm out and advising others to do the same), I wonder what the reaction would be to a P1 device with bugs in it. Anyone with an attitude of OpenMoko must spoon feed me everything should probably wait for September ... Sheesh! -- Rod -Original Message- The openmoko people had better provide us some information about what will work and what won't, or I'm out and advising others to do the same. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:45:36 -0400 Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it was a different company, it wouldn't be open source, and, thus, they wouldn't need a developer preview. It's a circular point. Exactly, Mike. And now that we are all on the same page about this being an open-source project, it appears that it is being handled in the same manner as most if not all open-source projects, through a community. To me, if a community member has taken the time to do research for me, and email me back with weblinks, and enough basic information for me to make a fairly educated decision, I would not only be satisfied, but I would be very grateful. It really should not make a differece if the word was official. At this point most of the people on this list are either developers are linux hobbyists. So I think that we should all be smart enough that by collaborating, come up with some decent solutions. If this makes you feel unfortable about the unknown, then it would indeed be better to wait until september for you. I am sure that many aspects of this project will handled in a similar pattern of communication, through the community. For me, this is not an issue. I plan on actively participating, and I am not worried about plans, because with any modern GSM carrier (cingular and t-mo included) you can change your plan if it does not suit you. Folks, the point of this thread is for the community to ask the community for help in finding an open-source wifi device. This thread has gotten completely taken over by this miscellaneous discussion about plans. Lets move the topic back to wifi chips. This is the whole point of open-source, we all have a say. Right now the community needs to work together, so lets do that! How Much Is Your Time Worth I ask :) ? Cheers -scott ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crossroads
On 3/14/07, Martin Lefkowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you collect all the information that came on this email list and post it to the Wiki, or FAQ? Marty Aha! Thank you Marty, that is a way out of this Merry-Go_round. Otherwise I was thinking about the normal advice Don't feed the trolls clare ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
Hi Sean, What about the Marvell® 88W8385 module used on the wifistix Open source drivers can be found at http://gumstix.com Cheers Grahame Jordan Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Dear Community, OpenMoko is built around the philosophy that far more knowledge exists outside the walls of a corporation than within. Internally, we're struggling with two issues. So we're throwing this out, hoping that some of you have can help us move past our current crossroads: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. If you're a vendor and want to work with us to GPL your driver, we'll give you lots of business -- and a free phone ;-) 2) We don't have enough UI / Application developers -- If anybody meets (or knows somebody who can meet) the following qualifications: * = 2 years experience with GTK * object oriented design and implementation w/ GObject * experience with writing GUI applications from scratch, * has software quality assets like: o writing maintainable and reusable code o refactoring o design patterns o identifying and extracting common application code into frameworks Familiarity with collaborative development tools such as: * bugtracker, * source control management, * wiki, * mailing lists is a necessity. We've love to talk with you! Please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with links to your previous work and a resume if you have one. (The latter is nowhere near as important as the former.) Thanks in advance for any help! -Sean begin:vcard fn:Grahame Jordan n:Jordan;Grahame org:Glass Expansion adr:;;15 Batman St;West Melbourne;VIC;3003;Australia email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Product Development Engineer tel;work:+61 (0)3 9320 tel;fax:+61 (0)3 9320 1112 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.geicp.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
Hello, On 3/13/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) We can't find a WiFi Chipset with GPL'ed drivers -- We know this has been discussed (to death) on this list, but as we're beginning work on the next summer hardware refresh we still can't seem to find a vendor that meets our strict requirements: Namely, we refuse to put anything binary in the kernel. Marvell has some nice for larger devices (the 8388). But we need one specifically for mobile phones (like the 8686). If somebody can help us find the right vendor, we'll give you a free Neo1973. Have you guys looked into Nanoradio? Specifically NRX700/2 : http://www.nanoradio.com/?NavID=278 Haven't worked (or actually talked) w/ them, but stumbled across them when working on another project. Seem small, so they may work w/ Free Software technologist. I have a longer list some where, just need to dig it up, will post it when I find it. Steve ps. Sorry to send directly to you(Sean), I'm not subscribed to the community list and not sure if this would get through. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [openmoko-announce] Crossroads
On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:07:45 +0100, Grahame Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sean, What about the Marvell® 88W8385 module used on the wifistix Open source drivers can be found at http://gumstix.com Cheers Grahame Jordan Hello Grahame, No open source drivers for that either. If you check the Makefile of the wireless driver [1], you can see that they are using a binary-only driver for 6 months now [2]. Imre P.S: You have to use username gumstix with password gumstix (http://docwiki.gumstix.org/Software_development_kit) [1] http://websvn.gumstix.com/filedetails.php?repname=Buildrootpath=%2Ftrunk%2Fpackage%2Fwifistix%2Fwifistix.mkrev=0sc=0 [2] http://websvn.gumstix.com/log.php?repname=Buildrootpath=%2Ftrunk%2Fpackage%2Fwifistix%2Fwifistix.mkrev=0sc=0isdir=0 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
