Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-10 Thread Maelvon HAWK

# settrans r...@settrans.net -f -R -S

Or,

The thread is very interesting, but it seems that's Bob will never 
change is point of view. Nicolas is open to discussion, and is also 
working on the Gta project, I don't think that Bob is ready to do one 
step forward before having all the spec, plans, pdfs, cad files in the 
format he want, and working on the projects, just telling is point of 
view by mail.


But before winning the Godwin point in this thread, perhaps the best 
solution is to organise a face to face meeting between Bob and Nikolaus 
to discuss. A mail thread is never a discussion, but the explanation of 
points of view.


Crownfunding a meeting between Bob and Nikolaus can be a solution?

Maelvon HAWK

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-10 Thread EdorFaus

On 10/09/2013 08:10 PM, Bob Ham wrote:

On Sun, 2013-10-06 at 08:42 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

1. you are talking about open SOURCE hardware (which I call free hardware)


No.  I've explicitly refrained from distinguishing between such labels
because I'm aware that they are not as well defined in the domain of
hardware as they are in the domain of software.


As far as I have been able to tell, you have been arguing the entire 
time from the position that the terms *are* well defined, and that 
therefore the project should be using those definitions.


Now you are suddenly saying that the terms *aren't* well defined, which 
is a contradiction of that position.


This appears to me to be either an admission that your position is 
incorrect, or an admission that you are being hypocritical (like you 
accused Nikolaus of being).



(Note also that you just admitted that you can't use arguments from the 
software domain, since you said that it has different definitions of the 
terms than the hardware domain does (even if they're similar). This 
holds even if you argue that the as in as well is important.)



On 10/09/2013 08:23 PM, Bob Ham wrote:

And the next day, when you've found an old definition that accords with
your view, suddenly that one definition would have obviated any
discussion.


I understood that as being not because *he* needed such a definition to 
follow, but because it appears that *you* do. Basically, that you 
apparently want everybody to follow a known definition, and this shows 
that they are - which could have saved us a lot of this thread (assuming 
you accepted the definition as a valid one, and aren't arguing just to 
argue).


(Disclaimer: I haven't actually read that definition (yet), just going 
by what I've seen in this thread.)


I also don't really see the contradiction you claim is present in the 
out-of-context snippets you posted, but that might just be me.


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-09 Thread Bob Ham
On Sun, 2013-10-06 at 08:42 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

 Can you agree on the following?
 
 1. you are talking about open SOURCE hardware (which I call free hardware)

No.  I've explicitly refrained from distinguishing between such labels
because I'm aware that they are not as well defined in the domain of
hardware as they are in the domain of software.

-- 
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for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-09 Thread Fernando Martins

On 10/09/2013 08:23 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
And the next day, when you've found an old definition that accords 
with your view, suddenly that one definition would have obviated any 
discussion.
The meaning of the words are defined by the communities that use it and 
different communities can have different understandings. And license 
definitions don't mean much until people in general have accepted it.  
You are merely trying to impose your interpretation on other people.


For me, the meaning of open hardware was defined by the introduction of 
the IBM PC (which did not include open source schematics). This is the 
meaning I know about and I believe it is still the reference most people 
have.


It is laudable to have more hardware open and it would be nice if 
goldelico would release the schematics in source. But I don't see them 
has having such obligation neither I see any inconsistence in their 
actions or words. Goldelico has certainly contributed to the cause of 
open hardware and you are merely trying to put shame on them by 
rhetorical manipulation to force them to do something they obviously 
don't have to. It is your actions I don't find laudable. ANd causing a 
lot of wasted energy.


Fernando Martins

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-09 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Wed 09 October 2013 20:47:01 Fernando Martins wrote:
 It is laudable to have more hardware open and it would be nice if
 goldelico would release the schematics in source. But I don't see them
 has having such obligation neither I see any inconsistence in their
 actions or words. Goldelico has certainly contributed to the cause of
 open hardware and you are merely trying to put shame on them by
 rhetorical manipulation to force them to do something they obviously
 don't have to. It is your actions I don't find laudable. ANd causing a
 lot of wasted energy.

+1
thanks!
/j
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-06 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 06.10.2013 um 08:42 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

 Hi Bob,
 
 Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.
 
 That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
 
 Open Hardware Devices.
 
 Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone
 
 http://www.openphoenux.org/ 
 
 Am 05.10.2013 um 20:10 schrieb Martin Jansa:
 
 Using open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files is maybe less misleading for
 people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
 the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for normal people.
 
 Can you agree on the following?
 
 1. you are talking about open SOURCE hardware (which I call free hardware)
 
http://www.ohanda.org/ = Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance
 
 2. OpenPhoenux was and is never claiming to be open SOURCE hardware
(like Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, RasPi [1], ... never did)
 
 And some organizations fostering open SOURCE hardware and free hardware
 are falsely recognized (e.g. by media) to cover ANY open hardware?
 
 -- hns
 
 [1]: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=45583p=360559

PS: I have found an old definition of Open Hardware from 1999.
IMHO well thought and interesting to read...

http://www.opencollector.org/Whyfree/definitions.html
http://www.opencollector.org/Whyfree/

If we had known this before, we could have saved this long flamewar.
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 08:28 schrieb Paul Wise:

 On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 You are mixing Free dom with Free Beer.
 
 https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
 
 But: some people are able to jump out of the window. So do you do as well?
 
 I followed the FSF and Debian out the window a long time ago and I am
 fairly happy with the result.

Yes, but they all decided themselves to volunteer to contribute to FSF and 
Debian.
For no payment (or by being paid by others). And I have done that as well.

But it was always *my* decision to volunteer or not. And that is not something
we can discuss or you can convince me.

 
 Strange argument... jOERG is right...
 
 To me his mail was a bizarre overreaction to a request for
 clarification of your reasons for wanting to keep goldelico in control
 of gta04 production.

I agree with him. We don't owe the community anything beyond what we
have voluntarily done or will do.

In general the offer of Free projects is: look, here is something others have
piled up in the past years. If you want to use it, please use it. But you are
obliged to give back your changes to support the community.

You are argueing from an egocentric point of view: look, there is something,
others have piled up in the past years. I want to use it. So they are obliged
to give me everything I think I need (even if you don't really need it) to 
support
me or others.

At least this is what I read from rah's and your arguments.

 

 
 The request for clarification was probably not needed though, you have
 made it fairly clear over a few threads over the years that you aren't
 interested in making the gta04 Free Hardware as rah and myself
 appear to define it.

I simply don't believe in the Free Hardware ideology.

The reason is that there is the idea of an allmende or community
behind, where everyone gets back as much as he/she invests by
volunteer work. This is good - in theory.

With Free Hardware I simply don't see that being balanced. I.e. you
can't expect to get back enough high quality volunteer contributions
from the general public to balance what you have to invest yourself
to get something 100% done. And hardware must be finished 100%
at some deadline (contrary to community software projects - just send
out 3.12-rc4).

The GTA02-core project has clearly demonstrated that some years ago.
The engineering community development model does not work for
hardware. So there is no need for Free hardware licences to regulate
the interworking of a big worldwide engineering team.

Let's say it with some perspective: everybody should do what he/she
can do best. E.g. donate money so that experts can live from that and
invest their time to develop great hardware that allows to run as much
free software as possible (and is well enough documented for that
purpose - but not more). This does not need Free Hardware in your
definition.

 So end of discussion for me, I'll try to avoid replying to any further
 mails on the gta04 topic.

Yes, there is no need for discussions about the freedom of GTA04.

But technical discussions are always welcome.

-- hns
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Parchet Michaël
Hello,

Your free hardware idon't use the Planned obsolescence concept isn't it ?

Thanks for your answer.

Best regards

mparchet

 Le 5 oct. 2013 à 09:11, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 05.10.2013 um 08:28 schrieb Paul Wise:
 
 On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 You are mixing Free dom with Free Beer.
 
 https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
 
 But: some people are able to jump out of the window. So do you do as well?
 
 I followed the FSF and Debian out the window a long time ago and I am
 fairly happy with the result.
 
 Yes, but they all decided themselves to volunteer to contribute to FSF and 
 Debian.
 For no payment (or by being paid by others). And I have done that as well.
 
 But it was always *my* decision to volunteer or not. And that is not something
 we can discuss or you can convince me.
 
 
 Strange argument... jOERG is right...
 
 To me his mail was a bizarre overreaction to a request for
 clarification of your reasons for wanting to keep goldelico in control
 of gta04 production.
 
 I agree with him. We don't owe the community anything beyond what we
 have voluntarily done or will do.
 
 In general the offer of Free projects is: look, here is something others have
 piled up in the past years. If you want to use it, please use it. But you are
 obliged to give back your changes to support the community.
 
 You are argueing from an egocentric point of view: look, there is something,
 others have piled up in the past years. I want to use it. So they are obliged
 to give me everything I think I need (even if you don't really need it) to 
 support
 me or others.
 
 At least this is what I read from rah's and your arguments.
 
 
 
 The request for clarification was probably not needed though, you have
 made it fairly clear over a few threads over the years that you aren't
 interested in making the gta04 Free Hardware as rah and myself
 appear to define it.
 
 I simply don't believe in the Free Hardware ideology.
 
 The reason is that there is the idea of an allmende or community
 behind, where everyone gets back as much as he/she invests by
 volunteer work. This is good - in theory.
 
 With Free Hardware I simply don't see that being balanced. I.e. you
 can't expect to get back enough high quality volunteer contributions
 from the general public to balance what you have to invest yourself
 to get something 100% done. And hardware must be finished 100%
 at some deadline (contrary to community software projects - just send
 out 3.12-rc4).
 
 The GTA02-core project has clearly demonstrated that some years ago.
 The engineering community development model does not work for
 hardware. So there is no need for Free hardware licences to regulate
 the interworking of a big worldwide engineering team.
 
 Let's say it with some perspective: everybody should do what he/she
 can do best. E.g. donate money so that experts can live from that and
 invest their time to develop great hardware that allows to run as much
 free software as possible (and is well enough documented for that
 purpose - but not more). This does not need Free Hardware in your
 definition.
 
 So end of discussion for me, I'll try to avoid replying to any further
 mails on the gta04 topic.
 
 Yes, there is no need for discussions about the freedom of GTA04.
 
 But technical discussions are always welcome.
 
 -- hns
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Bob Ham
On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.

That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:

  Open Hardware Devices.

  Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone

http://www.openphoenux.org/ 


You're also contradicting your own previous statements:

  I see the role of GDC [Golden Delicious Computers] to provide future
  open hardware but remain software agnostic

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-May/066835.html



On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 09:11 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

 I simply don't believe in the Free Hardware ideology.

This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:

  we are happy that we can make an announcement to the Free and
  Open Hardware Community, right in time for X-mas and New Year:  We
  have finally tested, understood and patched the bugs of the
  first GTA04 sample board

http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-December/006585.html


-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.

 That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:

   Open Hardware Devices.

   Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone

 http://www.openphoenux.org/


 You're also contradicting your own previous statements:

   I see the role of GDC [Golden Delicious Computers] to provide future
   open hardware but remain software agnostic

 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-May/066835.html

You're nitpicking about different meanings of open and free. This
discussion is no better than arguments about the freedom of GPL versus
BSD. It leads nowhere.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Bob Ham
On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 13:34 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

 You're nitpicking about different meanings of open and free.

This is hardly nitpicking.  If I had known what Nikolaus's position was
back in 2010, I doubt I would ever have bought a GTA04.  There seems to
be (1) the meaning that Nikolaus gives free hardware and open
hardware; and (2) the meaning everyone else gives free hardware and
open hardware.

It seems to me that Nikolaus has falsely advertised the GTA04, and is
continuing to do so.

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Fernando Martins

On 10/05/2013 01:34 PM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:

On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:


Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
open hardware - and never were intended to be.

That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:

   Open Hardware Devices.

   Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone

http://www.openphoenux.org/


You're also contradicting your own previous statements:

   I see the role of GDC [Golden Delicious Computers] to provide future
   open hardware but remain software agnostic

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-May/066835.html

You're nitpicking about different meanings of open and free. This
discussion is no better than arguments about the freedom of GPL versus
BSD. It leads nowhere.


+1

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 13:34 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

 You're nitpicking about different meanings of open and free.

 This is hardly nitpicking.  If I had known what Nikolaus's position was
 back in 2010, I doubt I would ever have bought a GTA04.  There seems to
 be (1) the meaning that Nikolaus gives free hardware and open
 hardware; and (2) the meaning everyone else gives free hardware and
 open hardware.

 It seems to me that Nikolaus has falsely advertised the GTA04, and is
 continuing to do so.

I think everything needed to evaluate if GTA04 is an open hardware
as in your dictionary was already available before ordering. Still,
GTA04 is in this regard just as free as GTA02 and maybe even more
(there were no schematics for GTA02 published on launch, and even now
not all of them are publicly available. And those which are, are also
only in PDFs)

In my dictionary, it's definitely free platform. One of the only ones
in mobile world. But yes, I can agree that the usage of free
hardware term may be a bit confusing.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Bob Ham
On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

 I can agree that the usage of free
 hardware term may be a bit confusing.

Describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware on openphoenux.org is, I
believe, not just confusing but dishonest.

-- 
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for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Sat 05 October 2013 11:09:02 Parchet Michaël wrote:
 Hello,
 
 Your free hardware idon't use the Planned obsolescence concept isn't it ?
 
 Thanks for your answer.
 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet

Now THIS is a good question! 
And the answer is: of course NO planned osolescence, we build that stuff for 
ourselves first and foremost :-) I want to *use* my device, once it's built, 
and I want to do that for a looong time to come.

cheers
jOERG
(please read http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG ! jOERG is my 
signature, I don't like to see it counterfeit ;-D )
-- 
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supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.
 
 That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
 
  Open Hardware Devices.
 
  Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone
 
 http://www.openphoenux.org/ 
 
 
 You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
 
  I see the role of GDC [Golden Delicious Computers] to provide future
  open hardware but remain software agnostic
 
 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-May/066835.html

 
 
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 09:11 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 I simply don't believe in the Free Hardware ideology.
 
 This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
 
  we are happy that we can make an announcement to the Free and
  Open Hardware Community, right in time for X-mas and New Year:  We
  have finally tested, understood and patched the bugs of the
  first GTA04 sample board
 
 http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-December/006585.html

Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?

Shaking heads only...

-- hns
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 
 I can agree that the usage of free
 hardware term may be a bit confusing.
 
 Describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware on openphoenux.org is, I
 believe, not just confusing but dishonest.

Who did put you into the position to make such offensive judgements?

-- hns

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Fernando Martins

On 10/05/2013 02:14 PM, Bob Ham wrote:

On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:


I can agree that the usage of free
hardware term may be a bit confusing.

Describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware on openphoenux.org is, I
believe, not just confusing but dishonest.


When the PC was released by IBM it was considered open hardware.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 
 I can agree that the usage of free
 hardware term may be a bit confusing.
 
 Describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware on openphoenux.org is, I
 believe, not just confusing but dishonest.


Ok, what would be a better wording for a well documented hardware
so open in documentation that everyone can write and install any
free and open operating system he/she likes?

I.e. there is no documentation hidden voluntarily that is needed to
reach this goal (you don't need Gerber files to make Linux, OpenBSD,
whatever work).

Maybe the usual distinction made between Open and Free software
holds here as well?

Open does not necessarily mean Free(dom). But open is definitively
the opposite of closed.

So what is wrong with describing it as Open Hardware on
openphoenux.org?

-- hns

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:42 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

 
 Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 
 I can agree that the usage of free
 hardware term may be a bit confusing.
 
 Describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware on openphoenux.org is, I
 believe, not just confusing but dishonest.
 
 
 Ok, what would be a better wording for a well documented hardware
 so open in documentation that everyone can write and install any
 free and open operating system he/she likes?
 
 I.e. there is no documentation hidden voluntarily that is needed to
s/voluntarily/intentionally/s
 
 reach this goal (you don't need Gerber files to make Linux, OpenBSD,
 whatever work).
 
 Maybe the usual distinction made between Open and Free software
 holds here as well?
 
 Open does not necessarily mean Free(dom). But open is definitively
 the opposite of closed.
 
 So what is wrong with describing it as Open Hardware on
 openphoenux.org?
 
 -- hns
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Bob Ham
On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
  On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
  
  Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
  open hardware - and never were intended to be.
  
  That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:

  You're also contradicting your own previous statements:

  This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:

 Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?

I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
it accords with your own personal definition.

I want to make it undeniably clear that describing the GTA04 as open
hardware is wrong.


On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a 
 book
 from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.
 
 Was it non.open source?

It was not open source.  This issue has been discussed previously.  The
source must be in the form customarily used for making modifications to
it.  This is an important factor.

From the GNU GPL 2:

  'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
  making modifications to it'
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html

From the Apache License 2.0:

  'Source form shall mean the preferred form for making modifications'
https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html

From the MPL 2.0:

  '“Source Code Form” means the form of the work preferred for making
  modifications.'
https://www.mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/

From the CDDL 1.0:

  '“Source Code” means (a) the common form of computer software code in
  which modifications are made and (b) associated documentation included
  in or with such code.'
http://web.archive.org/web/20090305064954/http://www.sun.com/cddl/cddl.html


If a software company refused access to their software's source code in
electronic text form and only released it in paper form (or in the form
of a bitmap image inside a PDF), that software would not be considered
open source.  The phrase that seems most appropriate for such
software, I think, would be encumbered source.


Wikipedia gives a fair description of open(/free) hardware:

  'Open-source hardware consists of physical artifacts of technology
  designed and offered by the open design movement.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_hardware

And of the open design movement, it says this:

  'Open design is the development of physical products, machines and
  systems through use of publicly shared design information. ... The
  process is generally facilitated by the Internet and often performed
  without monetary compensation. The goals and philosophy are identical
  to that of the open-source movement, but are implemented for the
  development of physical products rather than software.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_design

The Hardware Freedom Day website states the following:

  'Goals and philosophy of the Open Hardware movement are closely
  aligned with the ones of the Free Software movement.'
http://www.hfday.org/open-hardware

The free hardware and open hardware communities derive their ethos from
free software and open-source software.  Access to source files in the
preferred format for making modifications is therefore an important
requirement for free/open hardware just as it is for free/open software.

The Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance have taken the four
freedoms of the Free Software Definition and modified them to apply to
free hardware.  They stipulate the following in freedoms 1 and 3 of
their criteria for use of the OHANDA label:

  'Access to the *complete* design is precondition to this'
http://www.ohanda.org/  (My emphasis)

The requirement is made explicit by the Open Source Hardware Association
which has the following in its Open Source Hardware Definition 1.0:

  'The documentation must include design files in the preferred format
  for making changes, for example the native file format of a CAD
  program.'
http://www.oshwa.org/definition/


The idea that a circuit schematic in bitmap form constitutes the source
for open hardware is fallacious.


Furthermore, continuing to quote Wikipedia on open design:

  Open design is a form of co-creation, where the final product is
  designed by the users, rather than an external stakeholder such as a
  private company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_design


What you're doing is nothing to do with open hardware.  The idea that
you can pop some schematic bitmaps in the back of your manual while
refusing access to the source files, and then rightfully label your
company's product as open hardware is fallacious.

Please stop labelling your company's product as open hardware.

-- 
Bob Ham 

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Martin Jansa
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 05:37:59PM +, Bob Ham wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
  Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
  
   On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
   
   Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
   open hardware - and never were intended to be.
   
   That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
 
   You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
 
   This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
 
  Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
 
 I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
 be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
 hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
 this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
 it accords with your own personal definition.

I'm sorry but I think you're doing the same, just from the other side.

From this thread it's clear that different people understand open
hardware differently, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or
dishonest.

open hardware isn't AFAIK any registered sticker or trade mark
with clearly defined meaning, so it's pity that different people
associate it with different meanings/freedoms, but that's not their
fault.

Your source code citations from licenses are nice, but license text is
the right place where you should find definition of what's meant by term
source code, OpenPhoenux page doesn't say that it's using terminilogy
from ohanda or oshwa.

open hardware is imho closest term you can use to describe advantage
of gta04 for other people asking why you don't use cheaper android phone
or why they should buy gta04.

Using open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files is maybe less misleading for
people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for normal people.

Your accusations sounds like if Nikolaus is using OHANDA clearly defined
label without fulfilling requirements defined by OHANDA.

It's like saying that gta04 is small phone and then arguing if it's
small enough and that someone seen smaller phone and someone seen a lot
bigger phone and that some other project define small microwave as box
10x10x10cm so the small in small phone should be something like
that.

 I want to make it undeniably clear that describing the GTA04 as open
 hardware is wrong.
 
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
  If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a 
  book
  from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.
  
  Was it non.open source?
 
 It was not open source.  This issue has been discussed previously.  The
 source must be in the form customarily used for making modifications to
 it.  This is an important factor.
 
 From the GNU GPL 2:
 
   'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
   making modifications to it'
 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html
 
 From the Apache License 2.0:
 
   'Source form shall mean the preferred form for making modifications'
 https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html
 
 From the MPL 2.0:
 
   '“Source Code Form” means the form of the work preferred for making
   modifications.'
 https://www.mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/
 
 From the CDDL 1.0:
 
   '“Source Code” means (a) the common form of computer software code in
   which modifications are made and (b) associated documentation included
   in or with such code.'
 http://web.archive.org/web/20090305064954/http://www.sun.com/cddl/cddl.html
 
 
 If a software company refused access to their software's source code in
 electronic text form and only released it in paper form (or in the form
 of a bitmap image inside a PDF), that software would not be considered
 open source.  The phrase that seems most appropriate for such
 software, I think, would be encumbered source.
 
 
 Wikipedia gives a fair description of open(/free) hardware:
 
   'Open-source hardware consists of physical artifacts of technology
   designed and offered by the open design movement.'
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_hardware
 
 And of the open design movement, it says this:
 
   'Open design is the development of physical products, machines and
   systems through use of publicly shared design information. ... The
   process is generally facilitated by the Internet and often performed
   without monetary compensation. The goals and philosophy are identical
   to that of the open-source movement, but are implemented for the
   development of physical products rather than software.'
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_design
 
 The Hardware Freedom Day website states the following:
 
   'Goals and philosophy of the Open Hardware movement are closely
   aligned with the ones of the Free Software movement.'
 http://www.hfday.org/open-hardware
 
 The free hardware and open hardware communities derive 

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Sat 05 October 2013 19:37:59 Bob Ham wrote:
  Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
 
 I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
 be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
 hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
 this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
 it accords with your own personal definition.
 
 I want to make it undeniably clear that describing the GTA04 as open
 hardware is wrong.

According to your own personal definition.

 What you're doing is nothing to do with open hardware.  The idea that
 you can pop some schematic bitmaps in the back of your manual while
 refusing access to the source files, and then rightfully label your
 company's product as open hardware is fallacious.
 
 Please stop labelling your company's product as open hardware.

I seems that all your quotations and arguments refer to some form of licence 
finally. You can't request anybody who's disclosing his sourcecode to refrain 
from calling it open source as long as s/he's not claiming it adheres to a 
certain licence like e.g. GPL.
Same applies to calling a hardware open hardware as long as it doesn't claim 
to adhere to whatever open-hardware-licence (and heck, there are so many 
diferent licences like there are different open-hardware projects out there, 
see the wili pages you quoted).

Bottom line: when GolDeliCo's definition of open hardware doesn't meet yours, 
there's hardly anything you can do about it. I suggest you just check the 
particular project's licencing to find out about the details of open just 
like you have to do with every arbitrary other open hardware project. 

cheers
jOERG
-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread joerg Reisenweber
on a sidenote: Was KDE no open source software when Qt wasn't FOSS (for those 
who still remember that time)?

In layout project files they might even be (C) non-free libraries for e.g. 
component footprints, which would *forbid* disclosing them to the general 
public. Is the hardware less open then? Should EE create their own footprint 
lib to be allowed to give the rest of the docs to the community, since without 
footprints in project file the whole project isn't open anymore?

I think sometimes it's pretty tedious to discuss hw subjects with people who 
come from a sw background. So I will stop contributing to this futile 
discussion now.

/j
-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 19:37 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.
 
 That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
 
 You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
 
 This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
 
 Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
 
 I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  

Ah, you are an idelogic activist. I should have taken that into account from
the beginning of any discussion.

Because prefer to discuss with common sense and not needing to
weigh one's words ...

 You seem to
 be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
 hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
 this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
 it accords with your own personal definition.

Did you consider the option that all others may be wrong?

And, please give me the officially approved definition of Open Hardware
by ISO or some other official standardization body. If that exists, I will 
follow it.
Otherwise there are several personal definitions.

 I want to make it undeniably clear that describing the GTA04 as open
 hardware is wrong.

This is your personal opinion.

I only agree that it is not Free Hardware.

And since it is obviously not closed hardware (like an iPhone, Lumia etc.)
it follows from logic that it must be open hardware.

 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a 
 book
 from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.
 
 Was it non.open source?
 
 It was not open source.
  This issue has been discussed previously.  The
 source must be in the form customarily used for making modifications to
 it.  This is an important factor.

Why? I see the distinction between closed and open not in the convenience
of sharing information.

 
 From the GNU GPL 2:
 
  'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
  making modifications to it'

preferred != required

 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html
 
 From the Apache License 2.0:
 
  'Source form shall mean the preferred form for making modifications'
 https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html

preferred != required

 
 From the MPL 2.0:
 
  '“Source Code Form” means the form of the work preferred for making
  modifications.'
 https://www.mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/

preferred != required

 
 From the CDDL 1.0:
 
  '“Source Code” means (a) the common form of computer software code in
  which modifications are made and (b) associated documentation included
  in or with such code.'
 http://web.archive.org/web/20090305064954/http://www.sun.com/cddl/cddl.html

The common form of Schematics is a piece of paper with lines, circles and arcs.

 If a software company refused access to their software's source code in
 electronic text form and only released it in paper form (or in the form
 of a bitmap image inside a PDF), that software would not be considered
 open source.  The phrase that seems most appropriate for such
 software, I think, would be encumbered source.
 
 
 Wikipedia gives a fair description of open(/free) hardware:
 
  'Open-source hardware consists of physical artifacts of technology
  designed and offered by the open design movement.'
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_hardware
 
 And of the open design movement, it says this:
 
  'Open design is the development of physical products, machines and
  systems through use of publicly shared design information. ... The
  process is generally facilitated by the Internet and often performed
  without monetary compensation.

That is an description of the status quo and not a normative definition
of Open Hardware.

 The goals and philosophy are identical
  to that of the open-source movement, but are implemented for the
  development of physical products rather than software.'
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_design

Wikipedia is not a definition. It is a description of how authors see
the world.

 The Hardware Freedom Day website states the following:
 
  'Goals and philosophy of the Open Hardware movement are closely
  aligned with the ones of the Free Software movement.'
 http://www.hfday.org/open-hardware

They call themselves Freedom Day but try to coin the word Open Hardware.

I would be happy if they would talk about Free Hardware.

 
 The free hardware and open hardware communities derive their ethos from
 free software and open-source software.  Access to source files in the
 preferred format for making modifications is therefore an important
 requirement for free/open hardware just as it is for free/open software.

Again, what is the difference between Free and Open? 

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 20:10 schrieb Martin Jansa:

 On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 05:37:59PM +, Bob Ham wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
 open hardware - and never were intended to be.
 
 That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
 
 You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
 
 This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
 
 Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
 
 I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
 be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
 hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
 this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
 it accords with your own personal definition.
 
 I'm sorry but I think you're doing the same, just from the other side.
 
 From this thread it's clear that different people understand open
 hardware differently, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or
 dishonest.
 
 open hardware isn't AFAIK any registered sticker or trade mark
 with clearly defined meaning, so it's pity that different people
 associate it with different meanings/freedoms, but that's not their
 fault.

++

 Your source code citations from licenses are nice, but license text is
 the right place where you should find definition of what's meant by term
 source code, OpenPhoenux page doesn't say that it's using terminilogy
 from ohanda or oshwa.

++

and not from GPL or BSD or MIT licenses etc.

We use CC and it defines:

THE WORK (AS DEFINED BELOW) IS PROVIDED UNDER THE TERMS OF THIS CREATIVE 
COMMONS PUBLIC LICENSE (CCPL OR LICENSE).

Work means the literary and/or artistic work offered under the terms of this 
License including without limitation any production in the literary, scientific 
and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression 
including digital form, such as a book, pamphlet and other writing; a lecture, 
address, sermon or other work of the same nature; a dramatic or 
dramatico-musical work; ...

I.e. paper is explicitly included and all forms of its expression.

 open hardware is imho closest term you can use to describe advantage
 of gta04 for other people asking why you don't use cheaper android phone
 or why they should buy gta04.

or even more closed buy an iPhone or Lumia...

 Using open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files is maybe less misleading for
 people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
 the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for normal people.
 
 Your accusations sounds like if Nikolaus is using OHANDA clearly defined
 label without fulfilling requirements defined by OHANDA.

++

this confirms my own answer (was written before reading yours).

Tnx -- hns


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Bob Ham
On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 20:10 +0200, Martin Jansa wrote:
 On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 05:37:59PM +, Bob Ham wrote:

  I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
  be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as open
  hardware and what others describe as open hardware and yet you ignore
  this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
  it accords with your own personal definition.
 
 I'm sorry but I think you're doing the same, just from the other side.
 
 From this thread it's clear that different people understand open
 hardware differently, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or
 dishonest.

I disagree.  I've quoted a number of different bodies on their idea of
what constitutes open hardware and they all concur.

Meanwhile:

On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 And for me any printout that I can read is open source.

Nikolaus goes by his own definitions, regardless of what is generally
accepted.  We've even got people making up their own meaningless
phrases:

On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 In my dictionary, it's definitely free platform. 

The way I see it, on one hand there is a bunch of individuals on a
mailing list with their own ideas about what the phrase open hardware
should refer to, and on the other hand there are a number of
well-organised bodies with clear definitions which are not only in
accord with each other but with (1) the open hardware community that I
know and (2) the principles of the free software movement and the open
source community, the progenitors of those bodies.

==
 open hardware isn't AFAIK any registered sticker or trade mark
 with clearly defined meaning, so it's pity that different people
 associate it with different meanings/freedoms, but that's not their
 fault.

The people here seem to have their own meanings.  Everybody else seems
to have a pretty consistent idea about what constitutes open hardware.

You're right though, there is no trade mark.  I would hope that by
clearly demonstrating how Nikolaus's ideas conflict with the basic ideas
of the open hardware community, he will respect the fact that there is
an incompatibility and refrain from misrepresenting his product.


==
 Your source code citations from licenses are nice, but license text is
 the right place where you should find definition of what's meant by term
 source code

The quotations from license are there as evidence of the principles of
the free software movement and the open source community.  Licenses are
explicit manifestations of the ideas and motivations behind these
groups.  If you want to find out what the open source community or the
free software movement believes, the licenses they create are the place
to go.

What we see when look at those expressions of principles is a common
theme of requiring source code to be in the preferred form for making
modifications.  This idea has been inherited by the open hardware
community.  The inheritance is expressed in the Open Source Hardware
Definition and elsewhere.

To me, those people who disagree are not part of the open hardware
community.  They're part of some other community which does not share
the principles of the open design movement.  And in fact, Nikolaus
admits as much:

On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 09:11 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 I simply don't believe in the Free Hardware ideology. 

==
 Your accusations sounds like if Nikolaus is using OHANDA clearly defined
 label without fulfilling requirements defined by OHANDA.

Well, I'm not sure how you get that impression.  It's not like it's a
matter of adherence to a collection of finely detailed criteria.

Nikolaus denies access to the source files for his hardware.  It's not a
subtle conflict.  It flies in the face of the open hardware movement.
To be honest, I'm dumbfounded that there can be any confusion over it.


-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Stefan Monnier
 But none of them is building modular devices. I wonder why.

For the same reason they don't make their hardware open, for the same
reason they don't make their software Free, for the same reason they
don't want you to have root access on your phone.


Stefan


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Álvaro Lopes
On 05/10/13 18:37, Bob Ham wrote:
 'Access to the *complete* design is precondition to this' 
 http://www.ohanda.org/  (My emphasis)

Long time has passed since I post to this list.

Dearest all,

open software is something quite easy do define - it's written in common 
languages, so that it's purpose, function and behavior is pretty much easy to
replicate. The openness refers to what the author wanted - he wanted *that 
piece of design* to be able to be used elsewhere, with or without some 
associated
constraints.

Hardware is a bit different, unfortunately, if you don't actually focus on the 
scope of the openness. It is not possible to actually design an hardware
apparatus, such as the complex ones we're dealing with, and fully open all of 
the design.

Objectively speaking, a fully open hardware design would imply all of the 
hardware components to be open. This means all of the design components 
(including
the chemical components used for all of the process) would be disclosed. This 
is not feasible, is it ?

An open source windows application uses components which are not open, and 
whose behavior is sometimes not fully understood. Does that make that specific
piece of software less open ?

An hardware design is open, as far as all of the design that actually can be 
made open is indeed open - as specified by the developers of that hardware part
(schematics, so on).

If I draw a diagram connecting two components whose purpose and functional 
specifications were made available to me by means of some NDA, that does not 
make
my diagram less open - I just cannot disclose the information regarding some of 
the components on it (like there is no full information on the Windows API).

And please, please, don't throw GPL/Apache and such as examples of open source. 
They impose several restrictions on what can be done with the design,
rendering them less open than some of their counterparts (like BSD).

Best,

Alvie

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread Martin Jansa
On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 07:05:10PM +, Bob Ham wrote:
  Your accusations sounds like if Nikolaus is using OHANDA clearly defined
  label without fulfilling requirements defined by OHANDA.
 
 Well, I'm not sure how you get that impression.  It's not like it's a
 matter of adherence to a collection of finely detailed criteria.

In source code repository you also need to explicitly say which license
is applied and only after that you're obliged to follow selected license
rules.

If wiki page related to the project says that the code is free or
open then it doesn't automatically mean that it's GPL-2.0 or any other
open license - so you don't have detailed criteria if that project can
say that it's free or open on their own page.

We're not talking about license text delivered with gta04, we're talking
about home page of project which is trying to attract normal people (who
maybe never heard about floss).

 Nikolaus denies access to the source files for his hardware.  It's not a
 subtle conflict.  It flies in the face of the open hardware movement.
 To be honest, I'm dumbfounded that there can be any confusion over it.

No, he does not. You cannot download them in format most convenient for
you, but that doesn't mean it's not open hardware (without any
footnote that OHANDA or any other official terminology is used)

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-05 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Sat 05 October 2013 21:03:44 Stefan Monnier wrote:
  But none of them is building modular devices. I wonder why.
 
 For the same reason they don't make their hardware open, for the same
 reason they don't make their software Free, for the same reason they
 don't want you to have root access on your phone.
 
 
 Stefan

Nonsense, read very enlightening post of Ian Sterling (Hi speedevil! :-D) 
somewhere in this thread!

/j
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 21:32 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 03.10.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Bob Ham:

  I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.
 
 Yes that is correct. It is not Free Hardware in the strict FSF definition

I don't think FSF has a definition of Free Hardware.  Possibly we're
ascribing different meanings to the phrase.  I'm using Free Hardware
to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:

  http://www.ohanda.org/

 All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
 when some design decisions had to be made.

You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
hardware source files, making the device more open, is because you
expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
hardware source files is somehow a design decision?

-- 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Fri 04 October 2013 19:48:19 Bob Ham wrote:
 You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
 hardware source files, making the device more open, is because you
 expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
 hardware source files is somehow a design decision?

Refuse? RESTRICTING access? Honestly guys, what are you thinking we are doing 
here? Does Nikolaus owe you something (more) since he already gave you more 
than anybody else usually does?
This is a project as open as defined by the author, thus everything that's not 
open/free is not open/free, and everything offered to the community as CCbyCA 
or whatever is a gift to community, with no liabilities whatsoever arising 
from that for the one donating it. Period. End of discussion. Do we have to 
feel bad about the decision not to disclose project files? Definitely NOT! May 
you _ask_ why they don't get disclosed? Sure. But don't _question_  the answer 
you get, and don't even complain when you get no answer at all either.

You're not entitled to anything.
NOBODY needs project files to use this product and make the most of it, in any 
way you like. You get schematics and component placement and technical manual 
and datasheets. And on reasonable request GolDeliCo probably will even hand 
out layout as a number of pdf files, so you could check whether it's possible 
to drill a hole at pos X-Y into PCB. That's it. Be happy or get over it.

jOERG
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 04.10.2013 um 19:48 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 21:32 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 03.10.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.
 
 Yes that is correct. It is not Free Hardware in the strict FSF definition
 
 I don't think FSF has a definition of Free Hardware.  Possibly we're
 ascribing different meanings to the phrase.

Yes they have one and even do a certification (which would not be
possible with a definition):

http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Certification_criteria

  I'm using Free Hardware
 to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
 by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:
 
  http://www.ohanda.org/
 
 All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
 when some design decisions had to be made.
 
 You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
 hardware source files, making the device more open, is because you
 expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
 hardware source files is somehow a design decision?

???

I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
Just not in the format you would like to see them but you are free to
convert them. Nobody is taking this freedom from you...

Here I am referring to the typical discussion about binary blobs and
firmware drivers - because we decide(d) to use chips we can buy.

E.g. the WLAN chip.

-- hns



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Bob Ham
On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 20:16 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 04.10.2013 um 19:48 schrieb Bob Ham:

  I don't think FSF has a definition of Free Hardware.  Possibly we're
  ascribing different meanings to the phrase.
 
 Yes they have one and even do a certification (which would not be
 possible with a definition):
 
 http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
 http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Certification_criteria

They don't use the term Free Hardware to describe what they're
endorsing.


   I'm using Free Hardware
  to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
  by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:
  
   http://www.ohanda.org/
  
  All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
  when some design decisions had to be made.
  
  You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
  hardware source files, making the device more open, is because you
  expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
  hardware source files is somehow a design decision?
 
 ???
 
 I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.

The source files are not public.  The only thing that is public is a PDF
file containing bitmap images generated from other (Eagle?) source
files.  The other source files themselves are not available.

I don't understand how you can maintain that the source files are
public.


 Just not in the format you would like to see them but you are free to
 convert them.

You don't seem to understand that the difference in format is
critical.  It is the difference that prevents the GTA04 being described
as free hardware.

By your logic, all binary software executables are open because the
format can be converted into assembler.  While it may be true that one
can disassemble binaries and modify the resulting assembler, this is not
what we're referring to by the phrase free software.

Similarly, the GTA04 is not free hardware.


And by the way, I looked into your idea of scanning PCB schematics.
It's bogus.  I tried to see whether any suitable software was available
but here's what I found instead:

  there is no direct way to translate pure graphical data to an
  intelligent schematic, EDA schematics contain a lot of intelligent
  information that simply is not available on a sheet of paper
http://www.edaboard.com/thread8258.html

  No, nothing like that exists. ... Such a tool would be difficult to
  create, and impossible to realistically support considering the
  multitude of ways even a single IC could be represented. ... In short,
  it's unrealistic.
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/66432/any-research-to-turn-schematics-as-a-picture-into-a-simulation



 Here I am referring to the typical discussion about binary blobs and
 firmware drivers - because we decide(d) to use chips we can buy.

You're obviously using the phrase free hardware to mean hardware that
can run with entirely free software.  This seems to be non-normal usage.
For example, see

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Freedom_Day


-- 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Paul Wise
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 2:16 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

 I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.

I agree with Bob Ham on this. The source files are not public and even
the PDFs are not open, they are licensed under a non-commercial
license (CC-BY-NC-SA).

Even the BeagleBone Black people are able to release some sort of
hardware source files:

https://github.com/CircuitCo/-BeagleBone-Black-RevA5/

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:PaulWise

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 04.10.2013 um 21:26 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 20:16 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 04.10.2013 um 19:48 schrieb Bob Ham:
 
 I don't think FSF has a definition of Free Hardware.  Possibly we're
 ascribing different meanings to the phrase.
 
 Yes they have one and even do a certification (which would not be
 possible with a definition):
 
 http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
 http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Certification_criteria
 
 They don't use the term Free Hardware to describe what they're
 endorsing.

Yes, you are right.

 
 
 I'm using Free Hardware
 to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
 by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:
 
 http://www.ohanda.org/
 
 All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
 when some design decisions had to be made.
 
 You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
 hardware source files, making the device more open, is because you
 expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
 hardware source files is somehow a design decision?
 
 ???
 
 I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
 
 The source files are not public.  The only thing that is public is a PDF
 file containing bitmap images generated from other (Eagle?) source
 files.  The other source files themselves are not available.

Yes.

 I don't understand how you can maintain that the source files are
 public.

If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a book
from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.

Was it non.open source?

 Just not in the format you would like to see them but you are free to
 convert them.
 
 You don't seem to understand that the difference in format is
 critical.  It is the difference that prevents the GTA04 being described
 as free hardware.

Yes, I don't really understand, because I don't care that much about sophistry
and ideology. I want to get things materialize.

And for me any printout that I can read is open source. A missing printout
is closed source. Tertium non datur.

 
 By your logic, all binary software executables are open because the
 format can be converted into assembler.  While it may be true that one
 can disassemble binaries and modify the resulting assembler, this is not
 what we're referring to by the phrase free software.

 
 Similarly, the GTA04 is not free hardware.
 
 
 And by the way, I looked into your idea of scanning PCB schematics.
 It's bogus.  I tried to see whether any suitable software was available
 but here's what I found instead:
 
  there is no direct way to translate pure graphical data to an
  intelligent schematic, EDA schematics contain a lot of intelligent
  information that simply is not available on a sheet of paper
 http://www.edaboard.com/thread8258.html
 
  No, nothing like that exists. ... Such a tool would be difficult to
  create, and impossible to realistically support considering the
  multitude of ways even a single IC could be represented. ... In short,
  it's unrealistic.
 http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/66432/any-research-to-turn-schematics-as-a-picture-into-a-simulation

 
 Here I am referring to the typical discussion about binary blobs and
 firmware drivers - because we decide(d) to use chips we can buy.
 
 You're obviously using the phrase free hardware to mean hardware that
 can run with entirely free software.  This seems to be non-normal usage.

 For example, see
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Freedom_Day

Hm. That doesn't tell me much.

Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
open hardware - and never were intended to be. They are
well documented hardware for free and open software.

Generally, I agree with jOERG's comments.

If you don't like this situation, start your own project and make it
open hardware (in your definition), but don't expect us to do that
step for you.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-04 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 05.10.2013 um 05:09 schrieb Paul Wise:

 On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 2:16 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 
 I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
 
 I agree with Bob Ham on this. The source files are not public and even
 the PDFs are not open, they are licensed under a non-commercial
 license (CC-BY-NC-SA).

You are mixing Free dom with Free Beer.

 Even the BeagleBone Black people are able to release some sort of
 hardware source files:
 
 https://github.com/CircuitCo/-BeagleBone-Black-RevA5/

Yes, they did decide to do it that way.

But: some people are able to jump out of the window. So do you do as well?

Strange argument... jOERG is right...

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-03 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Hi,

Am 03.10.2013 um 05:15 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person.  And they show after making let's say 20 units.
 
 As you know, that has not been the experience with the GTA02, where
 audio quality output (works fine for line-out but not for headphones),
 GPS issues, and the 1024 issue have appeared over time and some of
 them took a long time to track down and fix.
 
 I can bet that your tests for GTA04 did not catch problems along the
 lines of power consumption issues that will only show up in particular
 usage scenarios that will only be used by the customer number 1462.

Yes, I agree that such tests can only be found by a field test (beta test or 
however
you like to call it).

But they are not production problems, but problems in the circuit design.
With production I mean making n identical copies of a piece of hardware.
And a production problem is if those are not really identical.

Compared with software, they are not compiler of kernel problems but
in the source code of some application.

Running field tests is a common practice in hardware development and
that is why some guys did loose their new iPhones before they were
announced in some bar... And even Apple did not find the antenna problems
before product launch.

So this type of bugs need a big community of persons really using a design.

 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different
 connector (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different
 signals and power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an
 OMAP3530 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or
 i.MX6.  Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I know.  But I'm not talking about swapping the actual CPU or the
 actual display.  I'm talking about swapping the CPU module or the
 display module.  I.e. create a standardized module interface around
 off-the-shelf (i.e. non-standardized) components.

Yes, there is even a standard for an interface between displays and CPU.
Well, even two or three:

MIPI, LVDS, HDMI/DVI.

 It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
 I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
 for it.

MIPI is already doing all this:

http://www.mipi.org/specifications
http://mipi.org/about-mipi/mipi-interfaces-mobile-platform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Industry_Processor_Interface

Everyone is there, ARM, TI, even Apple:

http://www.mipi.org/member-directory

But none of them is building modular devices. I wonder why.

 
 From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
 from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
 keep them all alive.

The problem for us is that we do not that easily get MIPI compliant
components or documents (for members only) than others. And we have
to use components that someone is willing to sell to us at a reasonable
price.

BTW: their monthly fees are public (different type of openness :):

http://mipi.org/join-mipi

-- hns


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-03 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Thu 03 October 2013 08:56:43 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
  I know.  But I'm not talking about swapping the actual CPU or the
  actual display.  I'm talking about swapping the CPU module or the
  display module.  I.e. create a standardized module interface around
  off-the-shelf (i.e. non-standardized) components.
 
 Yes, there is even a standard for an interface between displays and CPU.
 Well, even two or three:
 
 MIPI, LVDS, HDMI/DVI.
 
  It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
  I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
  for it.
 
 MIPI is already doing all this:
 
 http://www.mipi.org/specifications
 http://mipi.org/about-mipi/mipi-interfaces-mobile-platform
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Industry_Processor_Interface
 
 Everyone is there, ARM, TI, even Apple:

Remains to annotate that all those interfaces have rather tough electrical 
specs, e.g. MIPI HSI (often used to interface to modems) has a max PCB trace 
length of 15..20mm iirc, among other requirements that basically forbid usage 
of any connectors at all, for sure the iuse of cheap connectors.

/j
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-03 Thread Bob Ham
On Wed, 2013-10-02 at 23:15 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

 It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
 I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
 for it.
 
 From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
 from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
 keep them all alive.

I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-03 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 03.10.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Wed, 2013-10-02 at 23:15 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
 
 It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
 I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
 for it.
 
 From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
 from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
 keep them all alive.
 
 I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.

Yes that is correct. It is not Free Hardware in the strict FSF definition, and 
it didn't ever try to be.

Like the GTA01, GTA02 and the Ubuntu Edge (if it had reached its crowdfunding 
goals),
Raspberry Pi, BeagleBoard, OpenPandora, ...

All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
when some design decisions had to be made.

Yes, it is nice to have an unreachable goalto keep all those Sisyphus people 
working :)

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-10-02 Thread Stefan Monnier
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person.  And they show after making let's say 20 units.

As you know, that has not been the experience with the GTA02, where
audio quality output (works fine for line-out but not for headphones),
GPS issues, and the 1024 issue have appeared over time and some of
them took a long time to track down and fix.

I can bet that your tests for GTA04 did not catch problems along the
lines of power consumption issues that will only show up in particular
usage scenarios that will only be used by the customer number 1462.

 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different
 connector (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different
 signals and power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an
 OMAP3530 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or
 i.MX6.  Because they are not designed for this way of use.

I know.  But I'm not talking about swapping the actual CPU or the
actual display.  I'm talking about swapping the CPU module or the
display module.  I.e. create a standardized module interface around
off-the-shelf (i.e. non-standardized) components.

It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
for it.

From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
keep them all alive.


Stefan


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-26 Thread Parchet Michaël
Hello,

Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want install 
or install several os (multi boot) ?

Best regards

mparchet

 Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
 
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
 
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
 to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
 you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
 if you have 2 bad in 20.
 
 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.
 
 Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
 I.e. the volume has been constant.
 
 And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
 
 Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different connector
 (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
 power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.
 
 Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-26 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

 Hello,
 
 Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want install 
 or install several os (multi boot) ?

Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
orders.

-- hns

 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
 
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
 
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
 to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
 you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
 if you have 2 bad in 20.
 
 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.
 
 Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
 I.e. the volume has been constant.
 
 And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
 
 Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
 connector
 (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
 power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.
 
 Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-26 Thread Parchet Michaël
Hello,

Can you send me the URL for GTA04A5 ?

Best regards

mparchet

Envoyé de mon iPhone

 Le 26 sept. 2013 à 11:18, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
 
 Hello,
 
 Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want 
 install or install several os (multi boot) ?
 
 Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
 orders.
 
 -- hns
 
 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
 
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
 
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
 to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
 you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
 if you have 2 bad in 20.
 
 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.
 
 Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
 I.e. the volume has been constant.
 
 And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
 
 Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
 connector
 (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
 power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.
 
 Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
 
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 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
 
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-26 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 26.09.2013 um 11:42 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

 Hello,
 
 Can you send me the URL for GTA04A5 ?

https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04

A5 is the board revision/variant:

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Versions/

 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Envoyé de mon iPhone
 
 Le 26 sept. 2013 à 11:18, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
 
 Hello,
 
 Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want 
 install or install several os (multi boot) ?
 
 Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
 orders.
 
 -- hns
 
 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com 
 a écrit :
 
 
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
 
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
 
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not 
 need
 to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
 you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
 if you have 2 bad in 20.
 
 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.
 
 Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
 I.e. the volume has been constant.
 
 And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
 
 Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
 connector
 (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
 power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.
 
 Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-26 Thread Parchet Michaël
Hello,

Is there a phone or tablet with GTA04A5 ?

Thanks for your answer ?

Best regards

mparchet

 Le 26 sept. 2013 à 11:47, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 26.09.2013 um 11:42 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
 
 Hello,
 
 Can you send me the URL for GTA04A5 ?
 
 https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04
 
 A5 is the board revision/variant:
 
 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Versions/
 
 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Envoyé de mon iPhone
 
 Le 26 sept. 2013 à 11:18, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com a 
 écrit :
 
 
 Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
 
 Hello,
 
 Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want 
 install or install several os (multi boot) ?
 
 Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
 orders.
 
 -- hns
 
 
 Best regards
 
 mparchet
 
 Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com 
 a écrit :
 
 
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
 
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
 
 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not 
 need
 to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
 you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
 if you have 2 bad in 20.
 
 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically 
 drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.
 
 Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
 I.e. the volume has been constant.
 
 And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
 
 Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
 
 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
 connector
 (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
 power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.
 
 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.
 
 Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
 
 BR,
 Nikolaus
 
 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-25 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Hi Stefan,

Am 25.09.2013 um 05:01 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

 The main problem I see with such Free and/or Open phone is the small
 production syndrome.  Small productions mean high prices and low
 reliability, whereas we need reasonable prices and reliability.

Yes, small production is the key problem.

I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type of 
reliability
you are thinking of: component, software, hardware, production, or availability.

Each one can also be achieved with small production batches and improves
with experience of the team running such a project.

 
 So we need to focus on making larger production.  For that, we need to
 widen the target market.

Yes, this is the core idea behind the Neo900 project - find a new market
for an almost existing design and modifying it a little while sharing as many
components as possible.

In essence the Letux 3704 and Letux 7004 projects are no different from that.

  I'm not sure how best to do that, but
 I think the key is in making products that can be used in more
 situations.
 E.g. the EOMA project comes to mind: a single SoC card can potentially
 be used in various devices (tablet, router, NAS, ...).
 
 If the core part of the hardware could be shared between communities
 such as Openmoko (free phone), Raspberry, etc.. then it'd be easier to
 get that core part produced at reasonable cost, and to have a reasonably
 reliable kernel running on it.

In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.

And another factor is that producing anything in higher quantities in advance
means that someone is willing to put more money on the table in advance,
not knowing if the product finally sells. I.e. the financial risk goes up.

We all know that there are 10 times as many who would like to have something
different than what is available... And sometimes nobody wants what has been
made available.

Some other thought: it must not be a module that *we* produce (like EOMA)
to get production numbers up.

It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of units
for different projects), so that we get existing modules cheaper. I.e. if all
projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory, they still can be soldered
into different devices. Or WLAN/BT and UMTS are already coming as
SoC/MCP modules.

So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
out if it every day.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-25 Thread Stefan Monnier
 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.

Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.

 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.

In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
smaller.  And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.

Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
like the idea of customizing their phones.

I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.

 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.

Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).

 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.

Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
their resources.


Stefan


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-25 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

 I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
 of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
 production, or availability.
 
 Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
 discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.

Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
if you have 2 bad in 20.

 
 In essence it goes to a modular approach - but modular typically drives
 cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
 and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
 
 In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
 smaller.

Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
I.e. the volume has been constant.

  And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
 of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
 developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
 in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.

Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.

 Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
 attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
 like the idea of customizing their phones.

That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different connector
(there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
Because they are not designed for this way of use.

 I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
 necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
 works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
 I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
 
 It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
 units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
 cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
 they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
 UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP modules.
 
 Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
 similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also developmentdebugging).
 
 So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
 out if it every day.
 
 Exactly.  The various Free Hardware communities need to pool
 their resources.

Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-25 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Wed 25 September 2013 21:32:13 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

 Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
 person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not
 need to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And
 if you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as if
 you have 2 bad in 20.

Yield of 995/1000? Amazing!! A Yield of 950/1000 is already considered good.
That's what PV runs (and later on production QA) are for, to determine and (if 
necessary) improve, and sustain your production yield. No users needed for 
that. Actually it would be a very poor idea to ship PV devices without tests 
to users and hope for them to find the lemons.


  Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
  attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
  like the idea of customizing their phones.
 
 That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different
 connector (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different
 signals and power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an
 OMAP3530
 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
 Because they are not designed for this way of use.

Layman's idea of modularization, which never will fly in embedded. All the real 
progress made in embedded been based on new interfaces that were smarter and 
faster and smaller than the previously used ones. So it's like saying if 
Industry PC Standard Architecture had used a standardized interface (like ISA) 
then Pcs had evolved faster and were cheaper than they are today. Actually it 
needed PCI since ISA wasn't appropriate for the next generation of hardware 
technology. Same with embedded chips, just there you have like 5 duzen 
interfaces, and most chips have more than one interface, SoCs have like 20 of 
them.

/j
- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German)


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-09-24 Thread Stefan Monnier
The main problem I see with such Free and/or Open phone is the small
production syndrome.  Small productions mean high prices and low
reliability, whereas we need reasonable prices and reliability.

So we need to focus on making larger production.  For that, we need to
widen the target market.  I'm not sure how best to do that, but
I think the key is in making products that can be used in more
situations.
E.g. the EOMA project comes to mind: a single SoC card can potentially
be used in various devices (tablet, router, NAS, ...).

If the core part of the hardware could be shared between communities
such as Openmoko (free phone), Raspberry, etc.. then it'd be easier to
get that core part produced at reasonable cost, and to have a reasonably
reliable kernel running on it.


Stefan


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Battery graphs - was Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-27 Thread NeilBrown
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:46:12 +1000 NeilBrown ne...@suse.de wrote:

 On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:31:19 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 h...@goldelico.com wrote:
 
  Hm. That sounds quite different from the situation about 1 year ago when
  you did the first releases of QtMoko and I always thought that the
  3.7 kernel is working well enough, so that I started to add new features.
  
  Has it become worse since then?
 
 I like drawing graphs.  So I did - see attachment.
 
 For the last year or so my GTA04 has been logging the power usage during
 suspend for every suspend cycle longer than a few seconds.  I do this by 
 reading the charge_now value from the bq27000 in the battery, comparing the
 before and after values, and dividing by the number of seconds.
 
 I currently have my phone configured to wake from suspend every 5 minutes,
 check that the modem is still working, and go back to suspend.  This has
 helped collect quite a lot of values.
 
 To get the graphs I collected all those values, discarded negative numbers
 (when the battery was charging) and a few numbers that were clearly
 ridiculous (numbers more than 1 amp), and sorted the remainder.
 
 
 So we get a cumulative frequency graph of different current levels.
 
 The red line ('/tmp/uamp') is for the last couple of days since last reboot. 
 This is running 3.7 with offmode disabled.
 The green line ('tmp/uamp2') is for the last year, running a variety of
 different kernels.
 
 Obviously there is a very different number of samples in each. 342 in uamp
 10031 in uamp2.  So I normalised the X values so the graphs are comparable.
 They are much the same shape which suggests  the pattern is fairly robust.
 
 The Y axis is microamps.
 The green values below 2 (20mA) are with offmode enabled I assume.
 The red values are all greater because I have offmode turned off to improve
 reliability.
 
 The steps are a bit of a surprise.  They are all about 2mA.  I don't think
 this is an artefact of the precision with which measurements are taken as the
 charge value read from the battery has a much higher precision.
 I think it must be an actual 2mA difference in (average) current usage.
 This could be 2mA more for the whole time, or 4mA more with a 50% duty cycle
 etc.
 
 So if we can make off-mode really usable (which possibly means find and fix
 some bug in the omap usb code) and if we can find out what is causing these
 2mA steps and resolve that, then might might be a little closer to
 acceptable power usage.
 
 I might try running for a while with the modem turned off and see what result
 I get.


Here are results with modem powered off.

1/ The minimum current is higher!!! without the modem  at work. - 28mA rather
   than 24mA.
2/ The maximum is much lower. 36mA vs 97mA.
3/ We still see a 2mA step.  Most of the values are 30mA or 32mA.  A few are
   2mA lower, or 2,4,6 mA higher (roughly).

This is very strange.  The very rare high values when modem is working are
quite believable.  The steps and the high minimum are harder to explain.

Suppose some parallel bi-directional buss ended up in suspend with both ends
driving outputs.  Suppose also that if they were driving the same value it
would cause minimal current drain, but if they were driving different values
it would cause 2mA drain on each line that was unbalanced.
Then if the actual output bits on one side were random as we enter suspend,
we would see a range of different multiples of 2mA in current drain.

If this parallel bus were related to the modem, then when the modem wasn't
in use we would see much less variability.  But maybe higher average as some
bits might stuck on a bad value.

Now there is a bi-directional bus between the OMAP and the USB PHY.  But I
would be very surprised if both (or either) side were driving outputs on
suspend, and I count at least 12 steps in the green line, so it would have to
include the 8 data line and 4 control lines ... which is getting increasingly
unlikely.

I might be able to try holding the PHY in reset during suspend.  That should
force all pins to tri-state.  However first I think I'll try 15 minute
suspends rather than 5 minute and see if that makes a difference.

Is there another credible explanation for the 2mA steps?

NeilBrown
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Re: Battery graphs - was Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-27 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Wed 28 August 2013 00:29:18 NeilBrown wrote:
 On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 09:46:12 +1000 NeilBrown ne...@suse.de wrote:
  On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:31:19 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
  
  h...@goldelico.com wrote:
   Hm. That sounds quite different from the situation about 1 year ago
   when you did the first releases of QtMoko and I always thought that
   the 3.7 kernel is working well enough, so that I started to add new
   features.
   
   Has it become worse since then?
  
  I like drawing graphs.  So I did - see attachment.
  
  For the last year or so my GTA04 has been logging the power usage during
  suspend for every suspend cycle longer than a few seconds.  I do this by
  reading the charge_now value from the bq27000 in the battery, comparing
  the before and after values, and dividing by the number of seconds.
  
  I currently have my phone configured to wake from suspend every 5
  minutes, check that the modem is still working, and go back to suspend. 
  This has helped collect quite a lot of values.
  
  To get the graphs I collected all those values, discarded negative
  numbers (when the battery was charging) and a few numbers that were
  clearly ridiculous (numbers more than 1 amp), and sorted the remainder.
  
  
  So we get a cumulative frequency graph of different current levels.
  
  The red line ('/tmp/uamp') is for the last couple of days since last
  reboot. This is running 3.7 with offmode disabled.
  The green line ('tmp/uamp2') is for the last year, running a variety of
  different kernels.
  
  Obviously there is a very different number of samples in each. 342 in
  uamp 10031 in uamp2.  So I normalised the X values so the graphs are
  comparable. They are much the same shape which suggests  the pattern is
  fairly robust.
  
  The Y axis is microamps.
  The green values below 2 (20mA) are with offmode enabled I assume.
  The red values are all greater because I have offmode turned off to
  improve reliability.
  
  The steps are a bit of a surprise.  They are all about 2mA.  I don't
  think this is an artefact of the precision with which measurements are
  taken as the charge value read from the battery has a much higher
  precision.
  I think it must be an actual 2mA difference in (average) current usage.
  This could be 2mA more for the whole time, or 4mA more with a 50% duty
  cycle etc.
  
  So if we can make off-mode really usable (which possibly means find and
  fix some bug in the omap usb code) and if we can find out what is
  causing these 2mA steps and resolve that, then might might be a little
  closer to acceptable power usage.
  
  I might try running for a while with the modem turned off and see what
  result I get.
 
 Here are results with modem powered off.
 
 1/ The minimum current is higher!!! without the modem  at work. - 28mA
 rather than 24mA.
 2/ The maximum is much lower. 36mA vs 97mA.
 3/ We still see a 2mA step.  Most of the values are 30mA or 32mA.  A few
 are 2mA lower, or 2,4,6 mA higher (roughly).
 
 This is very strange.  The very rare high values when modem is working are
 quite believable.  The steps and the high minimum are harder to explain.
 
 Suppose some parallel bi-directional buss ended up in suspend with both
 ends driving outputs.  Suppose also that if they were driving the same
 value it would cause minimal current drain, but if they were driving
 different values it would cause 2mA drain on each line that was
 unbalanced.
 Then if the actual output bits on one side were random as we enter suspend,
 we would see a range of different multiples of 2mA in current drain.
 
 If this parallel bus were related to the modem, then when the modem wasn't
 in use we would see much less variability.  But maybe higher average as
 some bits might stuck on a bad value.
 
 Now there is a bi-directional bus between the OMAP and the USB PHY.  But I
 would be very surprised if both (or either) side were driving outputs on
 suspend, and I count at least 12 steps in the green line, so it would have
 to include the 8 data line and 4 control lines ... which is getting
 increasingly unlikely.
 
 I might be able to try holding the PHY in reset during suspend.  That
 should force all pins to tri-state.  However first I think I'll try 15
 minute suspends rather than 5 minute and see if that makes a difference.
 
 Is there another credible explanation for the 2mA steps?
 
 NeilBrown

check ULPI. also check the bus from CPU to musb core. And why would both ends 
need to be driven? In my book a 2mA is sth like 1.8V into 1kR termination, for 
example

/j
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Re: Battery graphs - was Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-27 Thread joerg Reisenweber
also check video bus. We know on GTA02 the display used iirc 20mA plus for a 
black screen. 

Oh and for the 1kR termination, just driving high a dataline that runs to an 
unpowered chip will eat quite some current via clamp diodes from input pin to 
0V-VDD, often even enough to power the chip ;-D Called reverse feeding

/j
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Yury Sakarinen



Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller писал 2013-08-24 17:31:

For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust 
in shelf.

Why?

1/ poor power management
2/ bugged reenumerating modem

GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it 
to work
where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i 
must have
reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need 
map.


I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I 
used
N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used 
it for
GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 
50% empty
during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 
4 days.

I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS.


That is something I still don't understand. From a power budget the 
modem is
specified to have 3-10 mA in suspend while registered to a base 
station.


I have even verified this with an ampere-meter.

And there is only one potential deviation - if there is some
attenuation (e.g. wall)
there may be a situation where the modem receives the base station 
well and

tries to answer/register. But since the base station does not receive
it at all, it
tries with high power. In this case the modem current increases to 
50-100 mA.


BTW: this is the same with almost all mobile devices.

So it must be something in the OMAP system and that is IMHO the same 
as the

N900 has... So pure kernel code.

BTW: this would not change by redesigning the GTA04 into a spare N900 
case...




At that time, as the main developments are in the care of the common 
/ production / communication problems, the community should try to 
implement the microkernel (eg arm port gnu / hurd) on the existing 
architecture GTA02/04, to see the resources consumption of core servers 
(to give chance new mobile platform based on open hardware stack).





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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Radek Polak
On Saturday, August 24, 2013 03:20:10 PM joerg Reisenweber wrote:

 On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote:
  1/ poor power management
 
 [...]
 
  something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel
  and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute
  only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and
  IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there
  is not much point to improve it.
 
 many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much of
 the discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04 project
 at large.
 
 However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for poor
 power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of different OM
 distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor power management
 is way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and WLAN connection
 manager and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and whatnot else.

Yup, after playing with alsa settings i could save a few mAmps on GTA04 too.

 Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system
 status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or
 even just polling files when you should use inotify instead.
 Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and
 usually it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or operation
 time.
 
 To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
 settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
 ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
 in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
 issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
 driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
 decently working usable OS on N900.

I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit more, 
since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which really cool 
btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just PMU+RAM+modem 
turned on, everything else should be off. But something is wrong and noone has 
yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with omap enable_off_mode - but 
then we hit imprecise external abort bug so currently we have ~22mA at best. 
If you compare this with GTA02 or N900 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd 
say N900 is even better. Together with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 
barely usable even for a few hardcore supporters but unusable for normal 
users.

Regards

Radek
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Re: [Gta04-owner] Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread Radek Polak
On Monday, August 26, 2013 01:17:09 PM Radek Polak wrote:

  To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
  settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
  ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
  in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
  issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
  driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
  decently working usable OS on N900.
 
 I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit
 more, since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which
 really cool btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just
 PMU+RAM+modem turned on, everything else should be off. But something is
 wrong and noone has yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with
 omap enable_off_mode - but then we hit imprecise external abort bug so
 currently we have ~22mA at best. If you compare this with GTA02 or N900
 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd say N900 is even better. Together
 with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 barely usable even for a few
 hardcore supporters but unusable for normal users.

Btw you can try even with bare rootfs. E.g. Neil Brown is running very bare 
debian with just some custom made phone app, but the power consumption is the 
same - and it's quite expected because all the userspace is stopped in 
suspend.

Regards

Radek
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Mon 26 August 2013 13:17:09 Radek Polak wrote:
 On Saturday, August 24, 2013 03:20:10 PM joerg Reisenweber wrote:
  On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote:
   1/ poor power management
  
  [...]
  
   something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel
   and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute
   only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and
   IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there
   is not much point to improve it.
  
  many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much
  of the discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04
  project at large.
  
  However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for
  poor power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of
  different OM distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor
  power management is way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and
  WLAN connection manager and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and
  whatnot else.
 
 Yup, after playing with alsa settings i could save a few mAmps on GTA04
 too.
 
  Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system
  status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or
  even just polling files when you should use inotify instead.
  Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and
  usually it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or
  operation time.
  
  To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in
  settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10,
  ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery
  in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland
  issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN
  driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a
  decently working usable OS on N900.
 
 I think in case of QtMoko on GTA04 we can blame kernel/HW a little bit
 more, since we are using suspend to RAM whereas N900 is always on (which
 really cool btw). So while GTA04 is in standby there should be idealy just
 PMU+RAM+modem turned on, everything else should be off. But something is
 wrong and noone has yet figured what it is. At best there is ~16mA with
 omap enable_off_mode - but then we hit imprecise external abort bug so
 currently we have ~22mA at best. If you compare this with GTA02 or N900
 it's really bad. GTA02 is 12mA and i'd say N900 is even better. Together
 with reenumerating modem it makes GTA04 barely usable even for a few
 hardcore supporters but unusable for normal users.
 
 Regards
 
 Radek

Yes, absolutely (I can't confirm neither deny your facts). N900 easily goes 
down to ~10mA in *standby*, see 
http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption
and also
http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management

What I can think of are floating lines making chips eat more than they should - 
may particularly due to suspend mode.

Let's hope we'll iron that out during next few months

cheers
jOERG
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-26 Thread NeilBrown
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:31:19 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
h...@goldelico.com wrote:

 Hm. That sounds quite different from the situation about 1 year ago when
 you did the first releases of QtMoko and I always thought that the
 3.7 kernel is working well enough, so that I started to add new features.
 
 Has it become worse since then?

I like drawing graphs.  So I did - see attachment.

For the last year or so my GTA04 has been logging the power usage during
suspend for every suspend cycle longer than a few seconds.  I do this by 
reading the charge_now value from the bq27000 in the battery, comparing the
before and after values, and dividing by the number of seconds.

I currently have my phone configured to wake from suspend every 5 minutes,
check that the modem is still working, and go back to suspend.  This has
helped collect quite a lot of values.

To get the graphs I collected all those values, discarded negative numbers
(when the battery was charging) and a few numbers that were clearly
ridiculous (numbers more than 1 amp), and sorted the remainder.


So we get a cumulative frequency graph of different current levels.

The red line ('/tmp/uamp') is for the last couple of days since last reboot. 
This is running 3.7 with offmode disabled.
The green line ('tmp/uamp2') is for the last year, running a variety of
different kernels.

Obviously there is a very different number of samples in each. 342 in uamp
10031 in uamp2.  So I normalised the X values so the graphs are comparable.
They are much the same shape which suggests  the pattern is fairly robust.

The Y axis is microamps.
The green values below 2 (20mA) are with offmode enabled I assume.
The red values are all greater because I have offmode turned off to improve
reliability.

The steps are a bit of a surprise.  They are all about 2mA.  I don't think
this is an artefact of the precision with which measurements are taken as the
charge value read from the battery has a much higher precision.
I think it must be an actual 2mA difference in (average) current usage.
This could be 2mA more for the whole time, or 4mA more with a 50% duty cycle
etc.

So if we can make off-mode really usable (which possibly means find and fix
some bug in the omap usb code) and if we can find out what is causing these
2mA steps and resolve that, then might might be a little closer to
acceptable power usage.

I might try running for a while with the modem turned off and see what result
I get.

NeilBrown
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-24 Thread Radek Polak
On Friday, August 23, 2013 10:21:33 PM arne anka wrote:

 the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to
 create sufficient public interest or even awareness.
 while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when
 it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's
 considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has
 widened.
 
 to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for
 smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent
 entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise.
 
 since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i
 can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my
 very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge
 disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art
 smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated
 device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even
 complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money.
 
 whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a
 successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and
 the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really
 believed that people would spend that amount for such a device.
 
 i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he
 honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where
 ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the
 device as imagined by ubuntu ...
 
 all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche
 of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed.
 while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think
 that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it
 to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool
 of still active n900 fans ...

Very well written. I can add a few more points.

For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust in shelf. 
Why?

1/ poor power management
2/ bugged reenumerating modem

GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it to work 
where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i must have 
reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need map.

I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I used 
N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used it for 
GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 50% empty 
during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 4 days. 
I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS.

I though that self-made open source phone will have good power management. I 
though it will be easy or at least possible to identify where the power goes. 
I am even more dissapointed that noone except Neil Brown tried to improve the 
situation. Event GTA02 is s much better in this area. For me this is so 
important that GTA02 is now much more usable then GTA04. It's like having car 
that can go just 30km.

And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried 
newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.

I dont understand why produce more phones until these problems are fixed. I 
even dont understand the efforts to make PVR, camera, radio and other 
components working, unless we have working phone and not mobile heat 
generator. Well you can answer why i am just writing mails instead of doing 
something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel and i 
have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute only as a 
tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and IMO QtMoko is very 
good at it. But without working kernel and HW there is not much point to 
improve it.

Regards

Radek

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-24 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote:
 1/ poor power management
[...]
 something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel and
 i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute only as
 a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and IMO QtMoko
 is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there is not much
 point to improve it.

many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much of the 
discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04 project at 
large.

However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for poor 
power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of different OM 
distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor power management is 
way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and WLAN connection manager 
and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and whatnot else. 
Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system 
status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or even 
just polling files when you should use inotify instead.
Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and usually 
it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or operation time.

To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in 
settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10, ... 
even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery in less 
than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland issue where 
kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN driver for not 
doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a decently working 
usable OS on N900.

cheers
jOERG
-- 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-24 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Hi Radek,

Am 24.08.2013 um 14:22 schrieb Radek Polak:

 On Friday, August 23, 2013 10:21:33 PM arne anka wrote:
 
 the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to
 create sufficient public interest or even awareness.
 while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when
 it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's
 considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has
 widened.
 
 to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for
 smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent
 entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise.
 
 since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i
 can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my
 very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge
 disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art
 smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated
 device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even
 complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money.
 
 whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a
 successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and
 the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really
 believed that people would spend that amount for such a device.
 
 i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he
 honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where
 ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the
 device as imagined by ubuntu ...
 
 all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche
 of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed.
 while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think
 that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it
 to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool
 of still active n900 fans ...
 
 Very well written. I can add a few more points.
 
 For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust in shelf. 
 Why?
 
 1/ poor power management
 2/ bugged reenumerating modem
 
 GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it to work 
 where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i must have 
 reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need map.
 
 I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I used 
 N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used it for 
 GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 50% empty 
 during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 4 days. 
 I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS.

That is something I still don't understand. From a power budget the modem is
specified to have 3-10 mA in suspend while registered to a base station.

I have even verified this with an ampere-meter.

And there is only one potential deviation - if there is some attenuation (e.g. 
wall)
there may be a situation where the modem receives the base station well and
tries to answer/register. But since the base station does not receive it at 
all, it
tries with high power. In this case the modem current increases to 50-100 mA.

BTW: this is the same with almost all mobile devices.

So it must be something in the OMAP system and that is IMHO the same as the
N900 has... So pure kernel code.

BTW: this would not change by redesigning the GTA04 into a spare N900 case...

 
 I though that self-made open source phone will have good power management. I 
 though it will be easy or at least possible to identify where the power goes. 
 I am even more dissapointed that noone except Neil Brown tried to improve the 
 situation.

Yes, that made me wonder as well. It appears that it needs some very special 
skills
we don't have in our community. Or we have but those members have no time.

 Event GTA02 is s much better in this area. For me this is so 
 important that GTA02 is now much more usable then GTA04. It's like having car 
 that can go just 30km.
 
 And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried 
 newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.

Because the upgrade firmware did not run on the kernels for unknown reasons
(failed with segfaults). And because we must make RMS believe that there is
no way to upgrade the modem firmware from user space.

 I dont understand why produce more phones until these problems are fixed.

I don't know how to fix these problems without producing more phones. Especially
there is one issue in the IrDA/RS232 driver which prevents the kernel to power 
down
both and the ITG3200 may also draw some mA. This all would be fixed in the 
GTA04A5
board design.

And there would be a 

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-24 Thread NeilBrown
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 +0200 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote:


 
 And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried 
 newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.

I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb problem.
I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate at which my modem
reenumerates went way down.
Sometimes the the modem disappears and comes back.  Sometimes it disappears
and doesn't come back.  In those cases if I rmmod the relevant modules and
modprobe them again it sometimes comes back and sometimes doesn't.
When rmmod/modprobe doesn't work, a reboot does.
But the reboot doesn't remove power from the modem so just resets the omap.
So it seems that the problem must be in the omap-usb driver.  At the very
least if we could get it to reset the connection to the same level as a
reboot resets it, then we should be able to improve reliability.

Oh, and by the way:  Don't rfkill block wwan :-(  It doesn't actually cause
the modem to stop transmitting, but it does cause it to be behave very badly
in intermittent ways.  My phone had been very unstable for quite a while and
I eventually traced it to an rfkill block all that I had in my startup
scripts.  Removing that helped a lot.

NeilBrown



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Modem reenummerating (was: Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone)

2013-08-24 Thread Lukas Märdian
Am 24.08.2013 23:04, schrieb NeilBrown:
 On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote:
 And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent
 tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.

 I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb
 problem. I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate
 at which my modem reenumerates went way down. Sometimes the the modem

Hmm could this by any chance have something to do with the infamous
Linux-USB problem, recently pointed out by Sarah Sharp?
  http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/93288

 disappears and comes back.  Sometimes it disappears and doesn't come
 back.  In those cases if I rmmod the relevant modules and
 modprobe them again it sometimes comes back and sometimes doesn't.
 When rmmod/modprobe doesn't work, a reboot does.
 But the reboot doesn't remove power from the modem so just resets the
 omap. So it seems that the problem must be in the omap-usb driver. At
 the very least if we could get it to reset the connection to the same
 level as a reboot resets it, then we should be able to improve
 reliability.

 Oh, and by the way:  Don't rfkill block wwan :-(  It doesn't
 actually cause the modem to stop transmitting, but it does cause it
 to be behave very badly in intermittent ways.  My phone had been very
 unstable for quite a while and I eventually traced it to an rfkill
 block all that I had in my startup scripts.  Removing that helped a
 lot.

BR,
  Lukas



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Re: Modem reenummerating (was: Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone)

2013-08-24 Thread NeilBrown
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 23:24:29 +0200 Lukas Märdian l...@slyon.de wrote:

 Am 24.08.2013 23:04, schrieb NeilBrown:
  On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote:
  And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent
  tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.
 
  I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb
  problem. I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate
  at which my modem reenumerates went way down. Sometimes the the modem
 
 Hmm could this by any chance have something to do with the infamous
 Linux-USB problem, recently pointed out by Sarah Sharp?
   http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/93288
 

Certainly worth testing - thanks for the link!

NeilBrown


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread Bob Ham

On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:


the GTA04 is a ready-to-use OpenSource smartphone.


The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale.  It *could* be 
the motherboard in a ready-to-use smartphone but it *isn't*.




There are no other
reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing.


If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising 
campaign?  I don't think money is the only problem.



--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote:
 On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
  the GTA04 is a ready-to-use OpenSource smartphone.
 
 The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale. 

Says who?


 It *could* be
 the motherboard in a ready-to-use smartphone but it *isn't*.

UHUH!


 
  There are no other
  reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing.
 
 If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising
 campaign?  I don't think money is the only problem.

I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of implicitly 
accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not telling the 
truth. To be utterly clear: hardware talks louder than (your) words, I had a 
complete GTA04 in my mail, and everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser.

/j
-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments
(alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some 
supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread Bob Ham

On 2013-08-23 09:38, joerg Reisenweber wrote:

On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote:

On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:



The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale.


Says who?


Says Golden Delicious:

  Note: we currently have no stock since we need to collect at least 
200 orders so that we can produce in big enough batches.


-- First sentence on https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04



 There are no other
 reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are 
missing.


If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a 
fundraising

campaign?  I don't think money is the only problem.


I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of 
implicitly
accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not 
telling the

truth.


There seems to be a misunderstanding here.  I'm not accusing anybody of 
hiding problems.  I'm saying that there are problems other than money 
which are preventing the successful production of a free phone.  Those 
other problems have been discussed openly on this list and others.




everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser.


Of course they *can*.  But they're *not*.  That's the point.


--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 23.08.2013 um 12:08 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On 2013-08-23 09:38, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 On Fri 23 August 2013 10:35:38 Bob Ham wrote:
 On 2013-08-23 07:26, openm...@pulster.de wrote:
 
 The GTA04 *is* out of production and no longer for sale.
 
 Says who?
 
 Says Golden Delicious:
 
  Note: we currently have no stock since we need to collect at least 200 
 orders so that we can produce in big enough batches.
 
 -- First sentence on https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04
 
 
  There are no other
  reasons why it isnt available, just damn investment $$ are missing.
 
 If money is the only problem then why is nobody running a fundraising
 campaign?  I don't think money is the only problem.
 
 I think it's up to you to answer your own question, instead of implicitly
 accusing highly honored guys like Nikolaus and Christoph of not telling the
 truth.
 
 There seems to be a misunderstanding here.  I'm not accusing anybody of 
 hiding problems.  I'm saying that there are problems other than money which 
 are preventing the successful production of a free phone.  Those other 
 problems have been discussed openly on this list and others.

To some extent you are right. There is a problem one would call a structural 
problem. Sort of an equation system with 0 solutions.

 everybody (even you) can start a fundraiser.
 
 Of course they *can*.  But they're *not*.  That's the point.

We see from this discussion that everybody wants something else, but not what 
would be easily available.

If 200 people agree to put 599 EUR on the table we could start production 
tomorrow (well, we need 6-8 weeks to get the components) and 200 GTA04 boards 
would be available in November.

We could also order 200 3D-printed cases, earpieces etc. to make complete 
phones. One issue is that we have just ~70 display modules, and they are out of 
production for a long time. But there may be some remaining stock in Asia, so 
it appears to be a solvable problem.

Doing a redesign for a different display, different case (N900) is also 
possible, but takes more time (estimate 4-6 months).

But it also needs 200 * 599 EUR on the table. Not to start design or production 
(that has become my hobby), but to buy components.

Now back to the everyone wants something different issue of the problem:
* people want a different device (N900 keyboard)
* people want an Überphone (Ubuntu Edge)
* people want 100% freedom in WLAN, UMTS modem etc. (discussions on this list)
* people want to have a device more innovative than Apple and Samsung together

And of course - as Christoph points out - cheaper than anything else.

I can completely understand all these wishes. Even that it should be cheaper 
than everythin else. But having the best at the lowest price is a contradiction 
in itself.

It can be fulfilled better, the higher the production volume is. It is a basic 
law of economy that only #1 and #2 producers can get big margins, big enough to 
stay #1 and #2 by spending a lot of money for innovation. It is a law that 
nobody can break - like force of gravity... If you want to study this, please 
ask yourself why you get the high capacity memory chips you would like to see 
in a GTA0x only from Micron, Samsung these days and nobody else.

At what position are we? We (with this I mean any team formed from the 
community) are probably #5000 in the smart phone or portable computer 
business...

From this, I think nobody is doing fundraisers or developing a new GTA0x 
because they either know and see these economical implications or at least 
have a good gut feeling that they can only loose money they don't have.

There are unsuccessful campaigns (Ubuntu edge) and successful ones. If you go 
deeper into successful campaigns, they offer something really new (wrist 
phones, wrist displays) which the big companies do not even have. So for a 
short time frame the early innovator is #1 (Pebble) and #2 (Meta-Watch). But 
as soon as Apple and Samsung will enter the game arena, things will change 
rapidly...

There is only one factor I can see that would change the game: if more people 
see a real value in supporting what we all would like to see. And supporting by 
paying more (and not expecting less).

-- hns




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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread arne anka

I don't think money is the only problem.


the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to  
create sufficient public interest or even awareness.
while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when  
it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's  
considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has  
widened.


to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for  
smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent  
entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise.


since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i  
can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my  
very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge  
disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art  
smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated  
device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even  
complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money.


whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a  
successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and  
the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really  
believed that people would spend that amount for such a device.


i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he  
honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where  
ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the  
device as imagined by ubuntu ...


all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche  
of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed.
while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think  
that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it  
to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool  
of still active n900 fans ...



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

2013-08-23 Thread Ben Wong
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 1:21 PM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote:

 i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he
 honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where ubuntu
 failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the device as
 imagined by ubuntu ...

Go with admire. :)

I'm not saying we'd succeed, I'm just suggesting that we could do with
failing the way Ubuntu did. By putting out a bold idea, Ubuntu moved
the idea of an open source phone forward from the standard it's gotta
be Android mentality, spurred themselves to innovate, and proved
there was a demand for something else.

Of course, what that something else is is different for everybody,
but we don't have to please everyone. Our community's niche is not in
being the most whizbang or the cheapest or the prettiest. I believe
the folks in this community have the ability to offer the only
free-as-in-freedom phone/computer and that's worth something. Not to
everybody, but to some percent.

Ubuntu's failure included over 5000 orders for units at $700 each.

Could we have 5% as much fail as Ubuntu? Yes. But we'd need to get the
word out and I'm just suggesting now might be a good time, while
people are still wondering what to do with that extra $700 PayPal just
refunded to them. :)

—Ben

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Ben Wong
Well, the deadline is up. The pledges rolled in and they got $12.8
million, which sounds amazing until you see that their goal was for
$32 million. I guess that means all that money is getting refunded and
there will be no Ubuntu Edge.

Here's Shuttleworth's upbeat closing comment:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge?c=activity

I wonder if OpenPhoenix has an opportunity now, with all those
frustrated would-be buyers out there.

--B


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Patryk Benderz patryk.bend...@esp.pl wrote:
 [cut]
 what will happen with all that funded money if Ubuntu fails to reach
 their goal?
 OK, finally found it:
 http://www.indiegogo.com/how-pricing-works-on-indiegogo

 --
 Patryk LeadMan Benderz
 Linux Registered User #377521
 ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
 /\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Paul Wise
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Ben Wong wrote:

 I wonder if OpenPhoenix has an opportunity now, with all those
 frustrated would-be buyers out there.

Are the Ubuntu Edge specs (or something close) achievable by OpenPhoenix?

-- 
bye,
pabs

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Joshua Judson Rosen
Ben Wong lists.openmoko@wongs.net writes:

 Here's Shuttleworth's upbeat closing comment:
 http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge?c=activity

 I wonder if OpenPhoenix has an opportunity now, with all those
 frustrated would-be buyers out there.

Maybe some; I'm pretty sure that there were some number of people who
actually pledged to the Ubuntu Edge campaign *because* it was clear that
the funding trigger-amount was not actually going to be reached. They
decided that it was probably important to _make a showing of support_
for the mobile-phone industry to see, even if that was all that they
were doing (what's a term for that? `guerrilla market research'?).
And it's easier to `put your money where your mouth is', even if
(especially if) you think that you can't really afford it, when you
know that you'll get your money back in a month.

-- 
'tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 20:22 +0200, Paul Wise wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Ben Wong wrote:
 
  I wonder if OpenPhoenix has an opportunity now, with all those
  frustrated would-be buyers out there.
 
 Are the Ubuntu Edge specs (or something close) achievable by OpenPhoenix?

No.  I think a better question is whether OpenPhoenix can achieve
production of *any* phone?

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Paul Wise
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Bob Ham wrote:

 No.  I think a better question is whether OpenPhoenix can achieve
 production of *any* phone?

Not currently in stock, but as I understand it, GTA04 exists and is a phone.

https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04

-- 
bye,
pabs

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:10 +0200, Paul Wise wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
 
  No.  I think a better question is whether OpenPhoenix can achieve
  production of *any* phone?
 
 Not currently in stock, but as I understand it, GTA04 exists and is a phone.

The GTA04 is a motherboard, not a phone.

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:
 On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:10 +0200, Paul Wise wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Bob Ham wrote:

  No.  I think a better question is whether OpenPhoenix can achieve
  production of *any* phone?

 Not currently in stock, but as I understand it, GTA04 exists and is a phone.

 The GTA04 is a motherboard, not a phone.

 --
 Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

 for (;;) { ++pancakes; }

Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
production of any phone.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

 Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
 buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
 production of any phone.

The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 22.08.2013 um 21:28 schrieb Bob Ham:

 On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
 
 Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
 buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
 production of any phone.
 
 The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
 cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.

Producing new cases is a matter of enough money, not of capabilities...

-- hns


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 22.08.2013 um 21:00 schrieb Joshua Judson Rosen:

 Ben Wong lists.openmoko@wongs.net writes:
 
 Here's Shuttleworth's upbeat closing comment:
 http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge?c=activity
 
 I wonder if OpenPhoenix has an opportunity now, with all those
 frustrated would-be buyers out there.
 
 Maybe some; I'm pretty sure that there were some number of people who
 actually pledged to the Ubuntu Edge campaign *because* it was clear that
 the funding trigger-amount was not actually going to be reached. They
 decided that it was probably important to _make a showing of support_
 for the mobile-phone industry to see, even if that was all that they
 were doing (what's a term for that? `guerrilla market research'?).

Well, the mobile-phone industry thinks in Billions of $$$ and Millions of
units. Therefore 12 Mio $$$ doesn't look attractive and will not change
any of their strategies.


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Sebastian Reinhardt

Am 22.08.2013 21:44, schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

Am 22.08.2013 um 21:28 schrieb Bob Ham:


On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:


Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
production of any phone.

The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.

Producing new cases is a matter of enough money, not of capabilities...

-- hns
The case is a good topic for further discussion: A new case, espacially 
Radek's ALU case, in combination with new, easy aviailable hardware 
components, and an sunlight readable display, should make the Moko more 
attractive. Due to the PRISM's and lack of free phones, there should be 
a real chance to acquire more users.


--
Kind regards

Sebastian Reinhardt



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:44 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

  The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
  cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.
 
 Producing new cases is a matter of enough money, not of capabilities...

The OpenPhoenix community doesn't have enough money so the answer to
the original question of whether it can produce *any* phone is: no.

I don't mean to belittle the community or detract from the activities of
those who are actually doing but I think it's harmful to operate with a
muddled view of the situation.  The idea that it would be possible for
the community to produce a phone with the same kind of specs as the
phone that Canonical, with its billionaire owner, just tried and
*failed* to build, seems to me to be rooted in a view so detached from
reality as to be almost pathological.  To even *ask* the question shows
that there is a problem.

There are limits on what the community can do.  Engaging in
pie-in-the-sky fantasies isn't going to help.

Please allow me to address a question to the community as a whole: if
you can produce a free phone then why aren't you?  Do it!  What are you
*waiting* for?

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Sebastian Krzyszkowiak
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:
 On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:

 Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
 buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
 production of any phone.

 The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
 cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.

So what? Those are still phones. Working, functional phones which have
much better specs than GTA02. User wants a free phone, user orders a
free phone, user gets a free phone. Without the need of owning GTA02
and replacing motherboard by himself - and that's what matters.
OpenPhoenux project provides full phone.

If there'll be higher demand, it'll provide new cases. Demand is too
low right now, so old cases are used. I can't see the point of your
argument in this discussion.

-- 
Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos
http://dosowisko.net/

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Ed Kapitein

On 08/22/13 23:11, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
So what? Those are still phones. Working, functional phones which have 
much better specs than GTA02. User wants a free phone, user orders a 
free phone, user gets a free phone. Without the need of owning GTA02 
and replacing motherboard by himself - and that's what matters. 
OpenPhoenux project provides full phone. If there'll be higher demand, 
it'll provide new cases. Demand is too low right now, so old cases are 
used. I can't see the point of your argument in this discussion. 

Did anyone try to use Ubuntu on the gta04 ?
It could be a nice show case to have some video's of working gta04's 
running Ubuntu Edge.


Kind regards,
Ed



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Thu 22 August 2013 21:44:13 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Am 22.08.2013 um 21:28 schrieb Bob Ham:
  On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 21:19 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
  Well, there are (or were) complete phones based on GTA04 available to
  buy from Golden Delicious, so yes, OpenPhoenux has already achieved
  production of any phone.
  
  The phones consisted of GTA04 motherboards inside second-hand GTA01/02
  cases.  These cases were produced by Openmoko, not OpenPhoenix.
 
 Producing new cases is a matter of enough money, not of capabilities...
 
 -- hns
 

As already suggested by me[1], you also could go the other way and adapt the 
PCB shape (plus a few circuit addons like hw matrix kb) to fit into a widely 
available convenient existing case, more convenient and available than 
Openmoko shower-radio housing. Think N900 [2].
I know for sure there's a (comparatively) huge community interested in such 
device with true hw kbd and resistive touchscreen, even more so when the 
platform inside is so close to original maemo platform [3] that even porting 
maemo to gta04 gets into vicinity.

cheers
jOERG

[1] http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.maemo.community/5428
[2] http://www.ebay.com/bhp/nokia-n900-housing
[3] http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread joerg Reisenweber
On Thu 22 August 2013 23:00:52 Bob Ham wrote:
 muddled view of the situation.  The idea that it would be possible for
 the community to produce a phone with the same kind of specs as the
 phone that Canonical, with its billionaire owner, just tried and
 *failed* to build, seems to me to be rooted in a view so detached from
 reality as to be almost pathological.  To even *ask* the question shows
 that there is a problem.

The only problem here is you fell for the story of the BILLIONaire(!) that 
failed to drum up ridiculous-in-his-balancebook 30some MILLIONS(!), while 
Nikolaus probably would be able to pull of same project on 10% of that budget.
Canonical big hoax, sorry! If this Shuttleguy really been interested in 
building a Edge , he'd simply DO it instead of starting nonsensical 
crowdfunding. 
Don't you see this is a marketing gag, nothing else?

/j
-- 
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supplementary links:)
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml  
http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 23:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 On Thu 22 August 2013 21:44:13 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:

  Producing new cases is a matter of enough money, not of capabilities...

 As already suggested by me[1], you also could go the other way and adapt the 
 PCB shape (plus a few circuit addons like hw matrix kb) to fit into a widely 
 available convenient existing case, more convenient and available than 
 Openmoko shower-radio housing. Think N900 [2].

Nikolaus, could you release the source files for the GTA04 PCB so that
others can work on this?

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread Bob Ham
On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 23:30 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:

 If this Shuttleguy really been interested in 
 building a Edge , he'd simply DO it instead of starting nonsensical 
 crowdfunding. 
 Don't you see this is a marketing gag, nothing else?

No, I don't.  It was indeed a wonderful marketing campaign for
Canonical's mobile efforts but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't
want the phone to be made.

We can speculate about why Shuttleworth was not prepared to invest his
own money in the project but that's all it is, speculation.

-- 
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net

for (;;) { ++pancakes; }


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-08-22 Thread kardan
On Thu, 22 Aug 2013 21:46:28 +
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net wrote:

 On Thu, 2013-08-22 at 23:30 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 
  If this Shuttleguy really been interested in 
  building a Edge , he'd simply DO it instead of starting nonsensical 
  crowdfunding. 
  Don't you see this is a marketing gag, nothing else?
 
 No, I don't.  It was indeed a wonderful marketing campaign for
 Canonical's mobile efforts but that doesn't necessarily mean they
 didn't want the phone to be made.
 
 We can speculate about why Shuttleworth was not prepared to invest his
 own money in the project but that's all it is, speculation.

I can't oversee Canonical's budget but it looks like the strategy was to
keep specifications and calculations closed for greater
opportunities, be it for negiotiations or even profit.

They started with 1.600$ and offered 300$ per phone for early birds
(without giving the whole community the chance to know about) but
instead of a safe calculation they fired up the second community phone
campaign in 2013 at least doubling the target of the fairphone.

What is this? A shoot in the sky with the aim to be best, not?

If they really wanted to build Mark's labour of love,
they would have filled the gap (60%) to sell the rest as in Triple LTS
Ubuntu Gold Pack Full Featured Anything with 10 years warranty and user
support (think something attractive for Ubuntu fanatics here). Instead
his comment was they didn't want to get into the hardware
business [1]. I'm holding my sides ..

And from his comment I can't read any disappointed but the attitude
Hey, it was a cool exercise. Now we know how many of you trust us
and what it's worth. - Thousands of you clearly want to own an
Ubuntu phone and believe in our vision of convergence, and rest assured
you won’t have much longer to wait.

Now I am confused what that is supposed to mean.

Kardan

[1]
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/feature/2284272/canonicals-crowdfunding-of-ubuntu-edge-stretches-credibility-to-the-breaking-point

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

2013-07-30 Thread Lukas Märdian
Am 30.07.2013 22:43, schrieb Carsten Gerlach:
 Am 30.07.2013 20:59, schrieb Joshua Judson Rosen:
 They've already raised just over $7-million in just over 7 days; if
 they can keep up that momentum, maybe they /can/ actually meet the
 goal.
 
 Well, I wish them that they reach this goal, but it will be a hard
 way, see http://ubuntu-edge.info/
 
 Btw: Does anybody know if Ubuntu Touch is or will be working on the
 Freerunner / GTA02 /GTA04?

Hi,

up to now nobody stepped up to show a running Ubuntu Touch on the
OpenPhoenux GTA04, but technically it should absolutely be possible.

Currently the GTA04 comes pre-installed with Debian, which is very
similar to the Ubuntu system. Also I easily installed and ran
Ubuntu-Core once. Running the Ubuntu Touch GUI should only be a matter
of apt-get install'ing the missing parts and doing a correct
configuration (this is probably the harder part). Even (non-free) 3D
drivers are available, if needed for the Ubuntu Touch GUI.

Best regards,
  Lukas



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