Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
wrote: fla...@correo.ugr.es wrote: Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting I'm not sure to have fully understood you, but I like having the phone always on the same address. There was a suggestion of using link-local addresses. If we do that, then we had better do it properly, because you aren't supposed to grab the same link-local address every time. If that is a problem, the solution is to not use link-local addresses. As long as you have one phone, a fixed IP address works well. If you have two or more, it is better if they are different or resolves the colission automatically. And then we might as well use existing standards. But perhaps there aren't that many people managing several phones from one pc. Helge Hafting Certainly there will be far less, proportionally, with Openmoko success. If Openmoko succeeds - which I presume we all want - then we, the linux hackers, will be the minority of users. The community as it exists right now cannot be considered the long-term target userbase. The more things deviate from 'just works' the more Joe Smartphone-user will consider broken when he can't figure it out. I'm not saying dumb it down, just reiterating my mantra of simple working defaults. I think we need to set a default IP pair in a /30 subnet or at least designate a subnet NOT commonly used, and UI network controls can allow to alter them at need. (or for those who perversely eschew UIs on a touchscreen phone, you can edit the config :) For 'backward-compatibility' (read: our convenience ;) I suggest 192.168.0.202/30 on the FR, .201 on host - machines with .200 can still communicate on this subnet. But my gut tells me we need a clean break and a clean subnet, like 10.19.73.0/24 or 10.79.77.0/24... ;) Something that works for a linux hacker works for us, something that works for the average smartphone user works for Openmoko. But by virtue of who and where we are, we can influence this and hopefully end up with something that just works. j Now when it comes to real users I believe the discussion about the best fixed IP-Number or a pool of dynamic numbers is far too short-sighted. As a true linux user by hard for many year now I have no problem in running a couple of commands to connect my Freerunner to my machine and configure it's internet connection to get some updates. However on the long run, if I will have to continue doing it like that I consider it a confession of failure. M$ and Apple are successful with their devices because users do not have to care at all about IP-Numbers or editing /etc/resolv.conf. Neither do today's Linux-Users as the vast majority is using DHCP on their DSL-(WiFi)-Routers They plug it in or move into a certain location and things just happen as expected. Believe me I don't like the side effects that come with all this automatisms, which is why I bought the freerunner so I have the freedom to change it. However as I sit in front of my desktop day by day already strangling with a more or less constant level of configuration problems (network gone, faulty acpi, xorg update broke screen resolution, etc.). I would really love to have my phone just work sometime in the relatively near future. For example a user friendly but still linux-like phone could ask me: Hey, while you already have decided to go on the internet (via usb or wifi or gprs, it's my decision and not limited by design flaws) shouldn't I download the latest updates in the background? or Um, I sense your bluetooth-enabled desktop is nearby. Shall I quickly sync your appointments and contacts with your favourite OpenSync-enabled PIM-Suite (or even with nasty Outlook)? Sorry for pouring out all that stuff here but I felt the urgent need to try to refocus on the efforts. I know it's a lot of work to which I haven't contributed much (yet), but if the Freerunner is supposed do revolutionize the mobile world it needs to do things better or smarter or at leased as good but with more freedom than it's competitors (Windows Mobile, IPhone, Blackberry from my point of view). Regards thomas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Thomas Otterbein wrote: Now when it comes to real users I believe the discussion about the best fixed IP-Number or a pool of dynamic numbers is far too short-sighted. As a true linux user by hard for many year now I have no problem in running a couple of commands to connect my Freerunner to my machine and configure it's internet connection to get some updates. However on the long run, if I will have to continue doing it like that I consider it a confession of failure. Sure. The default should just work. And there should be configurability for those with different needs. Such as updating 30 company phones all connected to the same usb hub... M$ and Apple are successful with their devices because users do not have to care at all about IP-Numbers or editing /etc/resolv.conf. Neither do today's And they fail because you usually can't do anything out of the ordinary. Connect just one phone to the PC at a time, please. Connect two phones to each other with a usb cable? Why would anyone want that? A networked phone game that doesn't need to call into one of our servers - where is the money in that . . . Linux-Users as the vast majority is using DHCP on their DSL-(WiFi)-Routers They plug it in or move into a certain location and things just happen as expected. Believe me I don't like the side effects that come with all this automatisms, which is why I bought the freerunner so I have the freedom to change it. However as I sit in front of my desktop day by day already strangling with a more or less constant level of configuration problems (network gone, faulty acpi, xorg update broke screen resolution, etc.). I would really love to have my phone just work sometime in the relatively near future. I agree that it should just work as far as possible. And the expert user can always make changes precisely because this is linux. Still, the way to just works is to use existing standards as much as possible. A fixed IP address is a last resort. Use that only if we have to. If this phone (or the next one) makes it to mass markets, then there will be families with several phones. It may be convenient to charge update them at the same time from the same PC. Your friend with the same phone might visit. You may want to surf the net at the same time. It'd be nice if all this just works too, and it won't when all phones share a fixed address. Running DHCP on the PC's usb interface is one way to make this case just work. Combining link-local addresses with NAT is perhaps another way. A fixed address won't do the trick. Either way, some software has to be set up on the PC. But that is OK, even windows people are used to installing a driver CD in order to connect their new phone to the computer. If this software then allows plugging in all your phones at the same time, so much the better! For example a user friendly but still linux-like phone could ask me: Hey, while you already have decided to go on the internet (via usb or wifi or gprs, it's my decision and not limited by design flaws) shouldn't I download the latest updates in the background? or Um, I sense your bluetooth-enabled desktop is nearby. Shall I quickly sync your appointments and contacts with your favourite OpenSync-enabled PIM-Suite (or even with nasty Outlook)? Do this or don't do this. Make it a setup option. But please - don't pop up questions! Questions that pop up while I use the phone gets in my way - yuk. Questions that pop up while the phone is in my pocket just wastes CPU effort and drains the battery. And it is particularly nasty if I pull the phone out of my pocket to make a call, and have to wade through 2-3 items that popped up since the last use - items that may even be irrelevant now that I have moved around. With SHR I already get one such popup - the one that suggests charging the nearly empty battery. The warning makes sense, but I usually put the phone on charging without looking at the screen, and the popup hang around forever until I need to use the thing. So often enough, I see this power complaint combined with a full battery. Of course this case can be fixed - the phone notices that power gets plugged in, and could remove the warning. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Hi Helge, I largely agree with you. Yes of course every needs to be widely configurable. To me the phone be able to be confiured to a range starting from fixed IP and just sitting there waiting for it's masters orders to booking automatically into known WLANs and downloading updates without any user interaction. Between these two extremes there are numerous layers of asking for permission/confirmation, just notifying me of something, etc., which of course should also be configurable. Probably a standard for convenience levels would help to describe what the phone should do or not do. Or usage scenarios like I'm just a user on holiday, trying to find the next free wifi hotspot or I'm the companies administrator and believe me I know what I'm doing. Applications or the phone as such could adhere to this and behave appropriate. Regards thomas On Tuesday 06 January 2009 12:03 Helge Hafting wrote: Thomas Otterbein wrote: Now when it comes to real users I believe the discussion about the best fixed IP-Number or a pool of dynamic numbers is far too short-sighted. As a true linux user by hard for many year now I have no problem in running a couple of commands to connect my Freerunner to my machine and configure it's internet connection to get some updates. However on the long run, if I will have to continue doing it like that I consider it a confession of failure. Sure. The default should just work. And there should be configurability for those with different needs. Such as updating 30 company phones all connected to the same usb hub... M$ and Apple are successful with their devices because users do not have to care at all about IP-Numbers or editing /etc/resolv.conf. Neither do today's And they fail because you usually can't do anything out of the ordinary. Connect just one phone to the PC at a time, please. Connect two phones to each other with a usb cable? Why would anyone want that? A networked phone game that doesn't need to call into one of our servers - where is the money in that . . . Linux-Users as the vast majority is using DHCP on their DSL-(WiFi)-Routers They plug it in or move into a certain location and things just happen as expected. Believe me I don't like the side effects that come with all this automatisms, which is why I bought the freerunner so I have the freedom to change it. However as I sit in front of my desktop day by day already strangling with a more or less constant level of configuration problems (network gone, faulty acpi, xorg update broke screen resolution, etc.). I would really love to have my phone just work sometime in the relatively near future. I agree that it should just work as far as possible. And the expert user can always make changes precisely because this is linux. Still, the way to just works is to use existing standards as much as possible. A fixed IP address is a last resort. Use that only if we have to. If this phone (or the next one) makes it to mass markets, then there will be families with several phones. It may be convenient to charge update them at the same time from the same PC. Your friend with the same phone might visit. You may want to surf the net at the same time. It'd be nice if all this just works too, and it won't when all phones share a fixed address. Running DHCP on the PC's usb interface is one way to make this case just work. Combining link-local addresses with NAT is perhaps another way. A fixed address won't do the trick. Either way, some software has to be set up on the PC. But that is OK, even windows people are used to installing a driver CD in order to connect their new phone to the computer. If this software then allows plugging in all your phones at the same time, so much the better! For example a user friendly but still linux-like phone could ask me: Hey, while you already have decided to go on the internet (via usb or wifi or gprs, it's my decision and not limited by design flaws) shouldn't I download the latest updates in the background? or Um, I sense your bluetooth-enabled desktop is nearby. Shall I quickly sync your appointments and contacts with your favourite OpenSync-enabled PIM-Suite (or even with nasty Outlook)? Do this or don't do this. Make it a setup option. But please - don't pop up questions! Questions that pop up while I use the phone gets in my way - yuk. Questions that pop up while the phone is in my pocket just wastes CPU effort and drains the battery. And it is particularly nasty if I pull the phone out of my pocket to make a call, and have to wade through 2-3 items that popped up since the last use - items that may even be irrelevant now that I have moved around. With SHR I already get one such popup - the one that suggests charging the nearly empty battery. The warning makes sense, but I usually put the phone on charging without looking at the screen, and the popup hang around forever until I
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
fla...@correo.ugr.es wrote: Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting I'm not sure to have fully understood you, but I like having the phone always on the same address. There was a suggestion of using link-local addresses. If we do that, then we had better do it properly, because you aren't supposed to grab the same link-local address every time. If that is a problem, the solution is to not use link-local addresses. As long as you have one phone, a fixed IP address works well. If you have two or more, it is better if they are different or resolves the colission automatically. And then we might as well use existing standards. But perhaps there aren't that many people managing several phones from one pc. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:36:55 +0100, Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no wrote: fla...@correo.ugr.es wrote: Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting I'm not sure to have fully understood you, but I like having the phone always on the same address. There was a suggestion of using link-local addresses. If we do that, then we had better do it properly, because you aren't supposed to grab the same link-local address every time. If that is a problem, the solution is to not use link-local addresses. As long as you have one phone, a fixed IP address works well. If you have two or more, it is better if they are different or resolves the colission automatically. And then we might as well use existing standards. But perhaps there aren't that many people managing several phones from one pc. Helge Hafting Certainly there will be far less, proportionally, with Openmoko success. If Openmoko succeeds - which I presume we all want - then we, the linux hackers, will be the minority of users. The community as it exists right now cannot be considered the long-term target userbase. The more things deviate from 'just works' the more Joe Smartphone-user will consider broken when he can't figure it out. I'm not saying dumb it down, just reiterating my mantra of simple working defaults. I think we need to set a default IP pair in a /30 subnet or at least designate a subnet NOT commonly used, and UI network controls can allow to alter them at need. (or for those who perversely eschew UIs on a touchscreen phone, you can edit the config :) For 'backward-compatibility' (read: our convenience ;) I suggest 192.168.0.202/30 on the FR, .201 on host - machines with .200 can still communicate on this subnet. But my gut tells me we need a clean break and a clean subnet, like 10.19.73.0/24 or 10.79.77.0/24... ;) Something that works for a linux hacker works for us, something that works for the average smartphone user works for Openmoko. But by virtue of who and where we are, we can influence this and hopefully end up with something that just works. j -- Joel Newkirk http://jthinks.com (blog) http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 00:55:22 +, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 18 Dec 2008, at 18:50, Sargun Dhillon wrote: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough ... Clearly you weren't about reading the many, MANY support posts at the time of the Freerunner's release. At that time questions on this subject would be posted to the list SEVERAL TIMES PER DAY. I haven't read the support list or IRC in a while, but I would doubt that such questions have become uncommon - just that the number of new users has dropped to a trickle. Also the Wiki has helped. At the start, even when such information was on the wiki, there was IMHO less tendency of new users to look there first. If the default IP address continues to be in the 192.168.0.x, 192.168.1.y or 192.168.2.z ranges then it'll just cause problems for all the many n00bs when sales spike again in the future. Stroller. My personal favorite solution is what I just reimplemented on my desktop: just bridge eth0 and usb0 on the desktop. Trouble is it's rather unportable that way, unless you use DHCP on the FR, which means you'd need to check the IP before SSHing to it. With a GUI hint telling us the DHCP IP address, though, it's something to think about. I also suspect that bridging the interfaces would be simpler under Windows than NATting. j -- Joel Newkirk http://jthinks.com (blog) http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Helge Hafting schrieb: Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:46:55 +0100, Esben Stien b...@esben-stien.name wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. 169.254.0.0/16 is probably more appropriate because this range is assigned to link-local addresses. Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting This would make it way harder to communicate with the freerunner. For now you know you can reach it at 192.168.0.202 and most of the documentations builds on this. So figuring out the ip address FR has chosen is way harder, especially for newbies. Alex Mueller ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Sat, 2008-12-20 at 13:15 +0100, Alexander Mueller wrote: Helge Hafting schrieb: Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:46:55 +0100, Esben Stien b...@esben-stien.name wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. 169.254.0.0/16 is probably more appropriate because this range is assigned to link-local addresses. Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting This would make it way harder to communicate with the freerunner. For now you know you can reach it at 192.168.0.202 and most of the documentations builds on this. So figuring out the ip address FR has chosen is way harder, especially for newbies. Alex Mueller Not if its handled right. I am not feeling generous to the bad word deleted who chose this address - just flashed 2008.12. Everytime I flash the freerunner, I have to modify things to get it to behave nicely with my network. Still, its not just the freerunner, but big companies like netgear who also choose inappropriate defaults ;( BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:26:01 +0100, William Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au wrote: 169.254.0.0/16 is probably more appropriate because this range is assigned to link-local addresses. Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That would be reinventing some wheels. See below for standardized solutions. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. This would make it way harder to communicate with the freerunner. For now you know you can reach it at 192.168.0.202 and most of the documentations builds on this. So figuring out the ip address FR has chosen is way harder, especially for newbies. Not if its handled right. One possible way to handle it right would be: 1. Try DHCP first. If a DHCP server gives us an address, use it and skip to step 3. 2. Grab a link-local IP address via IPv4LL (RFC 3927). This is even supported by default by both Windows = 98 and MacOS = 8, as well as in many Linux distributions, so it's as simple as plugging the device in. 3. If we have a DNS address from step 1, use it and skip to step 5. 4. Try discovering a DNS server using DNS-SD and use one if discovered. 5. Advertise through mDNS a user-configurable name defaulting to something like openmoko.local. 6. Advertise relevant services through mDNS, such as ssh, sftp-ssh, clipboard (would be nice, eh?), sip/h323 (why not?). 7. If we have a router address from step 1, skip to step 9. 8. Try some router discovery protocol (UPnP, SSDP?). Most of this is fulfilled by using avahi http://avahi.org, so it seems like a good choice. From a user's point of view, the device will never cause routing problems and always be accessible at a fixed host name, even without a domain name server. Alternatively, the phone itself can run a DHCP server after step 1 and assign an IP address to the peer, as well as run a DNS server. That way, plugging the phone with GPRS enabled into a Windows machine will automatically provide it with Internet connectivity. -- Alexey Feldgendler ale...@feldgendler.ru [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Le 14231ième jour après Epoch, Marcel écrivait: Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. Actually in that case I would avoid all powers of two. A higher prime number, like 97, might be a good choice... I just typed some random numbers 1 to get to the safer side... :) Did you mean hacker's random values are always powers of 2 ;) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Default IP Address on All Distributions
Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. -- Esben Stien is b...@e s a http://www. s tn m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact sip:b0ef@ e e jid:b0ef@n n ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Am Thursday 18 December 2008 16:46:55 schrieb Esben Stien: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. -- Marcel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On 18 Dec 2008, at 15:46, Esben Stien wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. +1 Stroller ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On 18 Dec 2008, at 14:55, Marcel wrote: Am Thursday 18 December 2008 16:46:55 schrieb Esben Stien: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. ... Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... IME 192.168.1.* is the *second* most common address range for private networks. Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. Indeed. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Marcel wrote: Am Thursday 18 December 2008 16:46:55 schrieb Esben Stien: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. Well... no - with a sane routing configuration that shouldn't be much of a problem. I have a 192.168.0 network at home and have no problems accessing my freerunner without changing IPs. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. Actually in that case I would avoid all powers of two. A higher prime number, like 97, might be a good choice... But eventually someone is always going to get into trouble, so maybe the better route would be to clearly explain how to avoid routing misconfiguration and how to change the default IP (which is done in /etc/network/interfaces fyi). Regards, Andreas Fischer ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:46:55 +0100, Esben Stien b...@esben-stien.name wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. 169.254.0.0/16 is probably more appropriate because this range is assigned to link-local addresses. -- Alexey Feldgendler ale...@feldgendler.ru [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
IME 192.168.1.* is the *second* most common address range for private networks. I think in Spain nearly all ISP, distribute their routers for home users with the 192.168.1.* default. Until the Freerunner, I had never seen a 192.168.0.* network (or I don't remember). I suppose it's part of the cultural environment, like so many things. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Am Thursday 18 December 2008 16:14:06 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Marcel wrote: Am Thursday 18 December 2008 16:46:55 schrieb Esben Stien: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. Well... no - with a sane routing configuration that shouldn't be much of a problem. I have a 192.168.0 network at home and have no problems accessing my freerunner without changing IPs. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. Actually in that case I would avoid all powers of two. A higher prime number, like 97, might be a good choice... I just typed some random numbers 1 to get to the safer side... :) -- Marcel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Nearly every network I know uses 192.168.1.*, so the default is perfectly fine... Although something like 192.168.64.* could be statistically more failsafe. Actually in that case I would avoid all powers of two. A higher prime number, like 97, might be a good choice... I just typed some random numbers 1 to get to the safer side... :) And that's probably why this is not the best number: it should be the last to come in mind, not the first! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:46:55 +0100, Esben Stien b...@esben-stien.name wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. 169.254.0.0/16 is probably more appropriate because this range is assigned to link-local addresses. Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
In Italy most of the home user routers have 192.168.0.* by default. - Original Message - From: fla...@correo.ugr.es To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:20:35 +0100 (CET) IME 192.168.1.* is the *second* most common address range for private networks. I think in Spain nearly all ISP, distribute their routers for home users with the 192.168.1.* default. Until the Freerunner, I had never seen a 192.168.0.* network (or I don't remember). I suppose it's part of the cultural environment, like so many things. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Giorgio Marci ha scritto: In Italy most of the home user routers have 192.168.0.* by default. in italy most are 192.168.1.* :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Sure. And if we go that way, why not use the proper way of setting a link-local address? * Pick a random address * check that it is free (arp, ping,...) * take it. That has a good chance of working, even for those who routinely connect two phones to the same pc at the same time. Helge Hafting I'm not sure to have fully understood you, but I like having the phone always on the same address. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
One word. zeroconf Oh, it is two words zeroconf and bonjour www.zeroconf.org/ PS: As fallback for DHCP of course. Esben Stien wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough to do a ip addr add 192.168.0.200/32 dev usb0 ip route add 192.168.0.202/32 dev usb0 This will only make two addresses on your network inaccessible. Then you can SSH into it, and change the IP address. This takes a whole 5 minutes! It'll make you miserable to not have connectivity, I understand, but just handle it. We've finally standardized on a set of IPs, and -everyone- is happy with it, except a few individuals who don't know how to use their system. Please stop complaining. -Thanks On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Tilman Baumann til...@baumann.name wrote: One word. zeroconf Oh, it is two words zeroconf and bonjour www.zeroconf.org/ PS: As fallback for DHCP of course. Esben Stien wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
Am 18.12.2008 um 19:50 schrieb Sargun Dhillon: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough to do a ip addr add 192.168.0.200/32 dev usb0 ip route add 192.168.0.202/32 dev usb0 This will only make two addresses on your network inaccessible. Then you can SSH into it, and change the IP address. This takes a whole 5 minutes! It'll make you miserable to not have connectivity, I understand, but just handle it. I read the discussion as the request to avoid the situation completely (spend 0 minutes) instead of handling it. Saves 1 people 5 minutes each, i.e. 34.7 days. And, you have forgot that learning how to do that takes more than 5 minutes if you are not an experienced sysadmin. We've finally standardized on a set of IPs, and -everyone- is happy with it, except a few individuals who don't know how to use their system. Hm, I always thought that the FR is aimed at the *mass market* Not for the 0.01% of individuals (i.e. PC users worldwide) who know by heart how to set IP routes... Just my 2ct. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
The OpenMoko FreeRunner was never aimed at end users. It's always been aimed at developers, and if you don't know how to set routes do a man ip or ip help. There are a fair chunk of those developers who don't have the IP overlap issue. I'd say there are maybe 1000 active freerunner users, and maybe 60% of them have an overlapping IP. I counted how long it takes to change the IP (on debian) (including adding routes, setting link up), and it was about 45 seconds. That's a total of 7.5 man hours world wide. Installing active desktop, and all the other crap for my palm phone takes 20-35 minutes--way longer. Anyways, I'm just saying 7.5 global hours isn't very much when you're considering mass market smart phones probably soak up millions of hours a year. Additionally, 7.5 is NOTHING, especially when there are 6.5 billion people in the world. Stop yer whining. On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote: Am 18.12.2008 um 19:50 schrieb Sargun Dhillon: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough to do a ip addr add 192.168.0.200/32 dev usb0 ip route add 192.168.0.202/32 dev usb0 This will only make two addresses on your network inaccessible. Then you can SSH into it, and change the IP address. This takes a whole 5 minutes! It'll make you miserable to not have connectivity, I understand, but just handle it. I read the discussion as the request to avoid the situation completely (spend 0 minutes) instead of handling it. Saves 1 people 5 minutes each, i.e. 34.7 days. And, you have forgot that learning how to do that takes more than 5 minutes if you are not an experienced sysadmin. We've finally standardized on a set of IPs, and -everyone- is happy with it, except a few individuals who don't know how to use their system. Hm, I always thought that the FR is aimed at the *mass market* Not for the 0.01% of individuals (i.e. PC users worldwide) who know by heart how to set IP routes... Just my 2ct. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
2008/12/19 Sargun Dhillon xbmodder+openm...@gmail.com: 6.5 billion people in the world. Stop yer whining. i think you shouldn't be so dismissive to someone who, rather than whining, put his point forward in a constructive way. this was hardly your average ill-directed rant from someone who doesn't understand the situation. patience, tolerance and understanding are considered good things, you know ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
I disagree - I've been a vocal proponent for many months of tidying up networking, including setting IP and subnet to something less likely to lead to conflicts. Yes, I agree that the vast majority of people using a FreeRunner as I type this are quite capable of performing the changes you mention in under 2 minutes, but I also believe that most would be quite happy if they were not required to do so every time they flash their FR. I personally use 192.168.0.202/30, with host machine (gateway from FR of course) set to .201, solely because that lets me set a static config on hosts to which I tether my FR and always reach even a fresh flashed image, with minimal disruption accessing other networks. (we have over 50 subnets at work, including 192.168.0.0/24, that I need to access 24/7) But I'd be wholeheartedly in support of a change to a less conflict-ridden subnet as the default, or at least a change of default to /30. We've not standardized on any set of IPs, and finally isn't even apropo since the 192.168.0.202/24 IP has been the de facto standard at least back to OM 2007.2. And whether I am alone in not being happy with it or not, I like to believe I know how to use my system, being a veteran linux network/server admin for a broadband provider. Taking a broader and longer view of things, the goal of Openmoko surely is a smartphone that can be sold to general consumers, not just linux hackers, and as such it's entirely sensible to establish defaults that will cause the least degree of inconvenience to owners as possible. (and in some opinions - including my own, after answering countless hundreds of phone calls from broadband users who don't even know what an IP address /IS/ - necessary) And the earlier that change is made the better for the long term: the more FreeRunners there are in the wild, the more people there are who will be affected at the point of changeover, and the more likely they are to be less linux-networking-savvy than the average community member today. I think an eventual goal may be to have a USB networking config GUI and include that in initial setup steps for new owners or following a complete reflash, but until then (and as default entry from that point onward) I agree with establishing a default USBnet config that is less likely to cause the user any extra effort. Make the default network config as maintenance-free and interference-free as possible, and any linux hackers who want it more convoluted can surely take the 60 seconds they'd need to complicate it. :) j On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:50:14 -0800, Sargun Dhillon xbmodder+openm...@gmail.com wrote: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough to do a ip addr add 192.168.0.200/32 dev usb0 ip route add 192.168.0.202/32 dev usb0 This will only make two addresses on your network inaccessible. Then you can SSH into it, and change the IP address. This takes a whole 5 minutes! It'll make you miserable to not have connectivity, I understand, but just handle it. We've finally standardized on a set of IPs, and -everyone- is happy with it, except a few individuals who don't know how to use their system. Please stop complaining. -Thanks On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Tilman Baumann til...@baumann.name wrote: One word. zeroconf Oh, it is two words zeroconf and bonjour www.zeroconf.org/ PS: As fallback for DHCP of course. Esben Stien wrote: Why on earth would you choose 192.168.0.*? This is probably the most common IP address on an internal network in the world and of course this means problems. If your network is configured with this IP range and you pop a freerunner in, it of course cause a world of pain. Please choose a more sensible default. -- Drucken Sie diese Mail bitte nur auf Recyclingpapier aus. Please print this mail only on recycled paper. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Joel Newkirk http://jthinks.com (blog) http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:16:32 -0500 Joel Newkirk freerun...@newkirk.us wrote: I disagree - I've been a vocal proponent for many months of tidying up networking, including setting IP and subnet to something less likely to lead to conflicts. Yes, I agree that the vast majority of people using a FreeRunner as I type this are quite capable of performing the changes you mention in under 2 minutes, but I also believe that most would be quite happy if they were not required to do so every time they flash their FR. I personally use 192.168.0.202/30, with host machine (gateway from FR of course) set to .201, solely because that lets me set a static config on hosts to which I tether my FR and always reach even a fresh flashed image, with minimal disruption accessing other networks. (we have over 50 subnets at work, including 192.168.0.0/24, that I need to access 24/7) But I'd be wholeheartedly in support of a change to a less conflict-ridden subnet as the default, or at least a change of default to /30. We've not standardized on any set of IPs, and finally isn't even apropo since the 192.168.0.202/24 IP has been the de facto standard at least back to OM 2007.2. And whether I am alone in not being happy with it or not, I like to believe I know how to use my system, being a veteran linux network/server admin for a broadband provider. Taking a broader and longer view of things, the goal of Openmoko surely is a smartphone that can be sold to general consumers, not just linux hackers, and as such it's entirely sensible to establish defaults that will cause the least degree of inconvenience to owners as possible. (and in some opinions - including my own, after answering countless hundreds of phone calls from broadband users who don't even know what an IP address /IS/ - necessary) And the earlier that change is made the better for the long term: the more FreeRunners there are in the wild, the more people there are who will be affected at the point of changeover, and the more likely they are to be less linux-networking-savvy than the average community member today. I think an eventual goal may be to have a USB networking config GUI and include that in initial setup steps for new owners or following a complete reflash, but until then (and as default entry from that point onward) I agree with establishing a default USBnet config that is less likely to cause the user any extra effort. Make the default network config as maintenance-free and interference-free as possible, and any linux hackers who want it more convoluted can surely take the 60 seconds they'd need to complicate it. :) j I couldn't agree more. I have a D-Link at home, that uses by default 192.168/16 as network, so I have to change my freerunner as well after each reflash. And I'd like to believe I'm not the only one owning a small router (for those curious: my D-Link doesn't allow me to change my network range, so I need to change my freerunnner) On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:50:14 -0800, Sargun Dhillon xbmodder+openm...@gmail.com wrote: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough to do a ip addr add 192.168.0.200/32 dev usb0 ip route add 192.168.0.202/32 dev usb0 not quite complete ... you need to set IP forwarding on the linux box, change the netmask and the default route on FR and change the /etc/resolv.conf file as well, otherwise no opkg update or alike. I *know* people like free DNS servers, but most ISP's block access to any other dns server in the world but their own, so ... So I vote for a less used range as well. Franky ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Default IP Address on All Distributions
On 18 Dec 2008, at 18:50, Sargun Dhillon wrote: Most Linux users, or most users that this device is aimed at are intelligent enough ... Clearly you weren't about reading the many, MANY support posts at the time of the Freerunner's release. At that time questions on this subject would be posted to the list SEVERAL TIMES PER DAY. I haven't read the support list or IRC in a while, but I would doubt that such questions have become uncommon - just that the number of new users has dropped to a trickle. If the default IP address continues to be in the 192.168.0.x, 192.168.1.y or 192.168.2.z ranges then it'll just cause problems for all the many n00bs when sales spike again in the future. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
