RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Its funny Lowell, I wanted to ask you this in private, but what the hack. While I am working on getting this current product out the door if you could organize the community effort that would be a great help to me, that way I don't get distracted from the grunt work of pushing boxes out the door. Personally, I've worked in marketing driven companies and engineering driven companies. There are strengths and weakness in both. If the marketing side has no idea about forthcoming technology, if they just reflect the customer to engineering, then you will be a follower, not a leader. If you ask customers what they want, more often then not they tell you what they have. They don't know what they are missing. On the other hand if the engineering side has no idea of the customer, then you can get ( I've got the scars to prove it) a product that has great technology that nobody cares about, or products ahead of their time. So it takes a balance. Typically what I would do is TWO lists. A technology PUSH list, created by engineering and then a marketing PULL list created by marketing. That way marketing gets exposed to technologies they may not know about and engineering gets exposed to customer needs they may have overlooked. Then the negotiation starts. This is a discussion about schedule cost and ROI. So out of your list of Push and pull you might conceptualize a pure pull product, and you might conceptualize a pure push product, do schedule costs and ROI. Then look at more balanced concepts in between. The way we do it at Openmoko is that Wolfgang represents the engineering voice, I am the marketing voice. Sean listens to our inputs and decides. I don't think we have had a disagreement between the three of us that lasted more than 1 email exchange. So If you want to represent the community voice to me, then I bring that voice forward into the board room. Is that workable? _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:12 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) Hi Matt.. I think I get a sense of where you are coming from. As an engineer, one thinks oh no, here comes these marketing people with their unrealistic requirements again. Been there. Even been on the giving end. :( On the flip side, as a marketer one sometimes thinks, Man, will these guys ever get a clue, no one wants that feature set. In a *perfect* world, engineers and marketers would be equal partners.. I don't think I've actually seen this work perfectly yet but I know the relationship I built with the engineering at Unisys was hard earned and it was built on trust (both ways.) It was a pretty good relationship and took me a few years to build. You have to treat the other side as part of the team, not the enemy as we have instincts to do. I've done it, I know. Here's how I see the roles working in an open environment... The marketing team creates a list of features that the product needs to have. There is a lot that goes into this I want to keep it simple for now. They sit down with the engineering team and create a list of agreed upon features (even suggested features engineering brings to the table) that go into the next product, prioritized of course. That list of features is created based on priority and feasibility of hitting the target completion date (agreed upon by everyone.. sort of.) Engineering then makes the magic happen... when a feature or requirement turns out it can't be met (through bug or other technical issue) both teams work out either a revised feature list or target date. Depends on how important that feature is. I've been in situations where I was told 5 days before the target date oh by the way, we dumped that must have feature x. While the engineering team is building the marketing team is working out the future of the next product and creating the collateral and campaign for the product in development. All publicly of course, with the aid of anyone (including the techie folks) that wants to help. I have a lot of ideas. I was thinking the bug database would be a good place to keep feature suggestions/submissions... but I couldn't find a bug database in the wiki. I must be blind. From that point, it's a big cycle. Once you get it going... it's easy to keep on it. The hard part is building the collaborative tools/process to do all this in. I think as an after thought, maybe we don't want to split into teams, just create a logical process... Not sure how that would work, though. People have definite skills in one are or the other. Anyways, that's my hair brained idea... I guess I should talk this out with Steve before I go too much further down this road. Thanks for the feedback. I think I understand your perspective now. Lowell PS - regarding Open Marketing, I'm a fan. I've been attempting to load the framework on my
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Hi all, although I am jumping in the middle of the discussion, I think I have some valuable contributions to bridge the engineering, marketing and community points of views. Am 29.04.2008 um 20:03 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: On 4/29/08, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I think of marketing I think of Apple and Google. Apple is for some specific group of people while Google manage to reach all. Why? This raises Question 1: why don't we think of Openmoko? It is not because Google is free. Try to compare OpenOffice with m$ office. M$ office gets its users because it's pushed on us (huge availability and commenly known). Google engineered what the market requested. They found out what people wanted and how to give it to them. I remember that I started using Question 2 (already asked by Lowell): which market requirements did Openmoko find by focus groups? BTW: There are Mobile Phone market studies for approx. 5000$ which make predictions for the next 5 years. Nonsense? No. I did read and compare in 2005 the Strategy Analytics study from 2001 and it was quite accurately predicting camera phones, smartphones, MP3 players, typical screen sizes etc. Which all were quite rare in 2001. Well, such a study never goes down to the level that the 2003 study did predict the iPhone or Openmoko to come in 2007:) But they can predict technological platforms to come. I.e. 256MB RAM, 600MHz processor, VGA display. Comparing that with a 2001 Desktop PC gives an indication that 2008 is the year of originally Desktop OS platforms to be mobilized. IMHO using a community to discuss and reinvent the same things is a good approach, but can't replace solid studies by specialists. So defining the next generation product is not necessarily a community process. Question 3: is the Openmoko project aware of these studies and using them? the search engine because someone recommended it to me. This was many years ago... other people recommended me other search engines. Some might be better, but Google is good enough so I do not change right now. I have no idea about marketing, but I like Steve's idea about open marketing. If we show the phone to many people, some of them might get interested. I started using Linux because a friend of me told me about it. Marketing has two aspects: a) Market knowledge/intelligence, i.e. who are the customers, what do they want, how can we achieve that. This is the question about Engineering vs. Community driven. b) Market communication: this is making the market aware of the products As someone who observes this project since it became public in November 2006, Openmoko did have a great start by the initial announcements and got a lot of press coverage, because it was * unknown * different (the openness approach) * announced first products for February 2007 The reason why there was so much coverage is simple: There had been rumours of an iPhone by end of 2006. And everyone thought that there is someone coming around the corner who is better and even faster than Apple. Now, let's compare what potential customers find if they research what they find in the Internet: * great start (termed the iPhone killer) * but delayed product delivery and not yet finished (software) * Openmoko did a really good job in showing and explaining the device on many conferences * iPhone has sold millions * iPhone is also Open (to a reasonable extent) and it is very easy to switch from Linux development to OSX So, the initial impression of being fast could not at all be hold. Unfortunately this is the notion that many multipliers, i.e. magazines and gazettes have. If they now will get the press release that the Freerunner is being shipped, who will print this message? Financial Times? They live from talking about the new and unexpected. The heroes. Here we are back to Apple Marketing. They celebrate their products, announcements and achievements as heroes. Quesion 4: how can we change that? Answer: we can't change the past. So, we have to change the future. Question 5: What must be improved? Perhaps Openmoko device delivery must be faster. I know that all of you are now crying that we all need to have a 110% perfect hardware. But the price we pay for this is that devices are coming later and this adds up to low interest by people who are *not* interested in the platform per se. And, there must be hero stories for the gazettes. Isn't there anyone who was in a critical situation and could get help only because he/she did have an Openmoko? If Openmoko should get out to x million people, I think we all need to work together. Remember it is in our own interest to make Openmoko survive. Showing off the phone would make a difference. If we want to show I had shown the Neo to many people and was astonished how many did already know it. Nevertheless many of them would not change their current
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Ok.. I'm severely jet lagged but I will try to throw some closure on this and hope it is coherent. Steve has been very cordial and enlightening in his mails to me. The last I have yet to digest and respond to but overall it is good, constructive stuff. After reading the diaglogue that has ensued, I totally understand why he wanted to take the conversation private. We'll has some things and go from there. Sorry for starting a firestorm. I want to let everyone know I don't intend to be negative and that was why I sent that last message. If I see problems, I want to offer solutions. I also want to thank Stroller for his phenomenal job for capturing (and translating) what I was trying to say. There was one statement made that I want to comment on... I mean marketing is really just how to sellSNIP That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any Tech CEO worth his salt would tell you the same. That very statement and belief is why so many startups in Silicon Valley (and probably worldwide) with very amazing products have gone bankrupt. I have friends that lived through that nightmare. That mindset is the very essence of the problem my original e-mail was trying to address. I couldn't have summed it better myself. It makes it sound like engineering comes up with a product all on it's own, throws it over a wall and to Marketing and says here, sell it. Kind of like a hot potato. That was the case once... in the 60's, I believe. Today, any company that had that mindset would not last long unless they had very deep pockets. Yes, I have a specific company in mind. My thought is let's roll that marketing effort over to this project from a community perspective. A lot of Open Source projects already do it.. Open Office is the first one that comes to mind. One of the thing I want to do with Steve is draw some boundaries... What is in Openmoko's court, and what is in the community's court regarding marketing... etc. In the meantime, let's roll out the FreeRunner and once it's out, well attack the next project publicly. Ok.. I'm going to sleep now. :) Cheers! Lowell On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:58 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for explaining that to folks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make $yyy profit aren't really any of our business. In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the goal of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly the best possible mobile phone software stack that can be installed over a wide range of phones. But underlying
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
I understand what you're saying about engineers tossing a product over the wall being a throw back. *Of course* there's back and forth and both marketing and rnd contributing to each other.. But I think it is typical for engineers to yearn for a larger role in marketing decisions and, less so, marketing to overstate their role in product engineering. Both groups have strong investments in the product dev process in different ways. I think engineering tends to be more of a group development effort, where marketing relies more on the strength of individuals, all with very good reasons. If the concerns are too overlapped, or if there is no seperation and specialization, I don't think that works well generally. I think there's very high value wrt role seperation and specialization. I don't think it was suggested that there was some kind of wall in the middle, that's ridiculous. But the best products come from a respect for the others roles and intense focus on what people are good at. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:11 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) Ok.. I'm severely jet lagged but I will try to throw some closure on this and hope it is coherent. Steve has been very cordial and enlightening in his mails to me. The last I have yet to digest and respond to but overall it is good, constructive stuff. After reading the diaglogue that has ensued, I totally understand why he wanted to take the conversation private. We'll has some things and go from there. Sorry for starting a firestorm. I want to let everyone know I don't intend to be negative and that was why I sent that last message. If I see problems, I want to offer solutions. I also want to thank Stroller for his phenomenal job for capturing (and translating) what I was trying to say. There was one statement made that I want to comment on... I mean marketing is really just how to sellSNIP That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any Tech CEO worth his salt would tell you the same. That very statement and belief is why so many startups in Silicon Valley (and probably worldwide) with very amazing products have gone bankrupt. I have friends that lived through that nightmare. That mindset is the very essence of the problem my original e-mail was trying to address. I couldn't have summed it better myself. It makes it sound like engineering comes up with a product all on it's own, throws it over a wall and to Marketing and says here, sell it. Kind of like a hot potato. That was the case once... in the 60's, I believe. Today, any company that had that mindset would not last long unless they had very deep pockets. Yes, I have a specific company in mind. My thought is let's roll that marketing effort over to this project from a community perspective. A lot of Open Source projects already do it.. Open Office is the first one that comes to mind. One of the thing I want to do with Steve is draw some boundaries... What is in Openmoko's court, and what is in the community's court regarding marketing... etc. In the meantime, let's roll out the FreeRunner and once it's out, well attack the next project publicly. Ok.. I'm going to sleep now. :) Cheers! Lowell On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:58 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for explaining that to folks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On 4/29/08, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mean marketing is really just how to sellSNIP That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any Tech I agree 100% with Lowell. When I think of marketing I think of Apple and Google. Apple is for some specific group of people while Google manage to reach all. Why? It is not because Google is free. Try to compare OpenOffice with m$ office. M$ office gets its users because it's pushed on us (huge availability and commenly known). Google engineered what the market requested. They found out what people wanted and how to give it to them. I remember that I started using the search engine because someone recommended it to me. This was many years ago... other people recommended me other search engines. Some might be better, but Google is good enough so I do not change right now. I have no idea about marketing, but I like Steve's idea about open marketing. If we show the phone to many people, some of them might get interested. I started using Linux because a friend of me told me about it. If Openmoko should get out to x million people, I think we all need to work together. Remember it is in our own interest to make Openmoko survive. Showing off the phone would make a difference. If we want to show something to non-hackers, we (the community) needs to develop a a lot of nice software, so that people say Wow! I want that feature!. I remember my friend told me that he don't care about what his phone is able to do, as long as it is slim, long battery capacity and that he is able to send/receive calls/SMS. Now I wonder, which features would be so valuable that he would not care about the physical design? If the phone was also a nitendo wii? Well, then it is up to us, the community, to implement software that makes the phone work as a nitendo wii. Only this way will garantee success. Lack of features in hardware (e.g. camera) must be compensated for in software (e.g. image drawing programs and support for sending/receiving images). If Openmoko survives, we could get more open firmware and GPL'ed drivers. If Openmoko gets 1% of the mobile market, they can start to push companies into GPL. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
The how to sell comment I made was a vast generalization meant to differentiate the roles of marketing and engineering in a crass way. Very easy to jump on, I know. Do you really think google engineers part of the day to day marketing meetings there? Or the same at Apple? Or sony? I doubt it.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Flemming Richter Mikkelsen Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:04 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 4/29/08, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mean marketing is really just how to sellSNIP That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any Tech I agree 100% with Lowell. When I think of marketing I think of Apple and Google. Apple is for some specific group of people while Google manage to reach all. Why? It is not because Google is free. Try to compare OpenOffice with m$ office. M$ office gets its users because it's pushed on us (huge availability and commenly known). Google engineered what the market requested. They found out what people wanted and how to give it to them. I remember that I started using the search engine because someone recommended it to me. This was many years ago... other people recommended me other search engines. Some might be better, but Google is good enough so I do not change right now. I have no idea about marketing, but I like Steve's idea about open marketing. If we show the phone to many people, some of them might get interested. I started using Linux because a friend of me told me about it. If Openmoko should get out to x million people, I think we all need to work together. Remember it is in our own interest to make Openmoko survive. Showing off the phone would make a difference. If we want to show something to non-hackers, we (the community) needs to develop a a lot of nice software, so that people say Wow! I want that feature!. I remember my friend told me that he don't care about what his phone is able to do, as long as it is slim, long battery capacity and that he is able to send/receive calls/SMS. Now I wonder, which features would be so valuable that he would not care about the physical design? If the phone was also a nitendo wii? Well, then it is up to us, the community, to implement software that makes the phone work as a nitendo wii. Only this way will garantee success. Lack of features in hardware (e.g. camera) must be compensated for in software (e.g. image drawing programs and support for sending/receiving images). If Openmoko survives, we could get more open firmware and GPL'ed drivers. If Openmoko gets 1% of the mobile market, they can start to push companies into GPL. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) Ok.. I'm severely jet lagged but I will try to throw some closure on this and hope it is coherent. Steve has been very cordial and enlightening in his mails to me. The last I have yet to digest and respond to but overall it is good, constructive stuff. After reading the diaglogue that has ensued, I totally understand why he wanted to take the conversation private. We'll has some things and go from there. Sorry for starting a firestorm. I want to let everyone know I don't intend to be negative and that was why I sent that last message. If I see problems, I want to offer solutions. I also want to thank Stroller for his phenomenal job for capturing (and translating) what I was trying to say. There was one statement made that I want to comment on... I mean marketing is really just how to sellSNIP That statement could not be farther from the truth, IMHO. I think any Tech CEO worth his salt would tell you the same. That very statement and belief is why so many startups in Silicon Valley (and probably worldwide) with very amazing products have gone bankrupt. I have friends that lived through that nightmare. That mindset is the very essence of the problem my original e-mail was trying to address. I couldn't have summed it better myself. It makes it sound like engineering comes up with a product all on it's own, throws it over a wall and to Marketing and says here, sell it. Kind of like a hot potato. That was the case once... in the 60's, I believe. Today, any company that had that mindset would not last long unless they had very deep pockets. Yes, I have a specific company in mind. My thought is let's roll that marketing effort over to this project from a community perspective. A lot of Open Source projects already do it.. Open Office is the first one that comes to mind. One of the thing I want to do with Steve is draw some boundaries... What is in Openmoko's court, and what is in the community's court regarding marketing... etc. In the meantime, let's roll out the FreeRunner and once it's out, well attack the next project publicly. Ok.. I'm going to sleep now. :) Cheers! Lowell On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 6:58 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for explaining that to folks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On 4/28/08, Ryan Prior [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The community list is for getting phones into peoples' hands? Where has the actual community discussion gone, then? If there is need for a special purpose list to get phones into peoples' hands, it would not be hard to create one. Besides, it's not hard to share mailing list bandwidth between various purposes. I simply can't buy the notion that the community mailing list is not suited to community discussion at this time. There is already too much noise on on the community mailing list. I am sure we will get all the details soon:) I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! So according to you, it should not be possible to talk with people outside the mailing list? -- Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Join the FSF as an Associate Member at: URL:http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774 Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! So according to you, it should not be possible to talk with people outside the mailing list? I did not say anything quite so bold, and you've completely missed my meaning. Please go back and read the thread again - my comment is purely a reaction the circumstances under which the request for secrecy arrived. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. Me too! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
And to be completely frank about about, I've found the tone of this thread the ugliest thing going on! I'm happy with just getting this phone so I can start developing for it, and I've found most of the push on this thread extremely negative and unproductive. I would guess that's why a private thread was suggested. Then that gets turned into an ugly mess as well. If we have to prioritize to not clog up the list, then right now the focus should be on getting these devices shipped. Discussion about future models is fine, but the whole premise of me and my friends this thing are ugly, is purely unproductive. I hope we can just move on and let this thread die. Heres to the great job everyone has been doing. Can't wait to get a FreeRunner and take part! Sincerely, Geoff On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. Me too! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Geoff Ruscoe Sigma Visions Computer Consulting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Actually, you left out a very important aspect to their success. It starts with an F, and ends in a word normally used to refer to men of a young age. I hear it's a trade secret. * Puts on fire retardent suit * Cheers, Federico On 4/28/08, hank williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt again, unless you have engineered a clever design I don't think you have much credibility on this. Executing appealing products from an engineering perspective is incredibly hard. What experiences do you have on this front which would suggest otherwise. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *hank williams *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make $yyy profit aren't really any of our business. In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the goal of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly the best possible mobile phone software stack that can be installed over a wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any business) make more profit. For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of units sold, market breakdown c - is a trade secret, and I don't see why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of information may be available to someone with experience in the industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the sort of information that any company will publish casually. Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we consumers want (colours, features c), whilst they may be interested in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build. When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty support in the future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates - than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems to me that that's pretty much what the secrecy whiners on this thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised that), Any company will provide inside information to the trade press - perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as Lowell has then FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first is demonstrate that you're not a whining fanboi, but that your unique insight can add value to the discussion of the product. I found Lowell's remarks interesting because he seems to be looking at Freerunner's place in the market from the old closed-development point of view. It seems likely to
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
I was just hoping that if not a lot of phones get sold (mere thousands or tens of thousands) OpenMoko still makes enough money to keep going, and to design a sexy phone next time around, when there can be an optimized case design rather than a leftover one, and when the software is polished enough that it has a chance of mass-market appeal. (If the software was best-in-class, the case could maybe even be overlooked by a decent fraction of people.) It's good if we have marketing people interested in how to make it sell better, but I agree the GTA02 is probably not the phone that's going to take the world by storm, yet. Maybe there isn't much harm in talking about what to improve next time even though next time isn't really upon us yet. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
It would detract from the argument to not speak to the points, so I will not argue about experience. You look only for a way to minimize my argument. Your argument is similar to suggesting Nike has superior engineering because they have the coolest shoes. No doubt there is some engineering at Nike wrt shoes but it aint that special in the grand scheme of things. It's about selling a minimal product with high margins, like Apple. If we take as a simplistic metric the number of inferences and resulting complexity produced from work at the company required to go from the drawing board to the product release, then the engineering that goes into an iPhone is not really any more then most of the McWindows phones out there. A lot of design and art and marketing considerations mostly, but that is not really engineering, and what's left is for the most part just a cheap computer with off the shelf parts. Parts that minimally met the quality requirments, no doubt. Matt From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:47 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clever design != feat of engineering. Matt again, unless you have engineered a clever design I don't think you have much credibility on this. Executing appealing products from an engineering perspective is incredibly hard. What experiences do you have on this front which would suggest otherwise. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is nothing incredible about apple's electrical, software, or mechanical engineering. IMHO.. The marketing/buzz machine is incredible though. I presume that you have never worked on a team that has built a successful mainstream consumer product, because if you did, you certainly would not be able to dismiss their success in this manner. Making things that sell has very little to do with advertising. hype does not just come from nowhere, as if from the heavens. If crappy products could win based on good advertising, all that would be required was money and clearly that is not nearly enough (see Microsoft Vista). The bottom line is that best selling tech gadgets, software, and computers sell to primarily tech savvy people because they like them. They like them, because the designers and developers have figured out how to make broadly appealing products. That is hard. If you are suggesting otherwise without actually having a resume that suggests you have done so yourself, you really don't have much of an argument. Hank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hank williams Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:52 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) If this is primarily a developer platform, why are there so many intense opinions about such superficial things as color and marketing anyways? In today's world, there is *very* little daylight between marketing and engineering. They are of a piece. The product design, the feature set, and yes even the physical form factor are all both engineering issues as well as marketing issues. Apple is a prime example of this. The beauty of the design of their products is all about marketing, but could not be achieved without incredible engineering on the electrical, software, and mechanical engineering fronts. So I don't think, particularly for a phone, you can separate these issues. Hank -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Your argument is similar to suggesting Nike has superior engineering because they have the coolest shoes. uhh... yes. The coolest shoes come from doing real *engineering*. Unless by cool you just mean pretty colors. An *incredible* amount of engineering goes into the creation of nike shoes. An **INCREDIBLE** amount. No doubt there is some engineering at Nike wrt shoes but it aint that special in the grand scheme of things. It's about selling a minimal product with high margins, like Apple. Hmm... this is just wrong. Nike (nor apple) wins because they designed the cheapest to manufacture product. In fact most of the time this is not true. If we take as a simplistic metric the number of inferences and resulting complexity produced from work at the company required to go from the drawing board to the product release, then the engineering that goes into an iPhone is not really any more then most of the McWindows phones out there. First of all I said Apple not iPhone. But to focus on the iphone for a sec, because Apple controls the software and the hardware of all of its products, even with the iPhone this statement is demonstrably false since McWindows phone manufacturers OEM their software and so do far less than half the work apple has to do. And certainly, at this point, apple has the most appealing software stack in the phone market. To suggest that there is no difference between the iphone software and the crash prone clunky windows mobile is to not have used either. A lot of design and art and marketing considerations mostly, but that is not really engineering, design *is* engineering, particularly as it relates to software and mechanical engineering. You cannot separate them. And by design I do not mean art work. It means how you make things work. Again your comments reflect not having actually worked on this stuff. Engineering good designs is hard. Its not about art, it is about execution. To suggest otherwise is really to reveal a lack of understanding of the process. -- blog: whydoeseverythingsuck.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Very simply If at this point in the delivery of freerunner I have to answer every posting about the next product, then the current product will not ship and the next will not ship. So I'm trying to structure a public dialog on the future product, in the future. On the other hand, I could of course stop everything I am doing on shipping freerunner and have nice long debates with everybody about what we should ship a year from now. Not going to do it So, I wanted to explain to him, I'm not ignoring his questions and explain a bit of the marketing background, basically personal stuff like what his experiences were and what my history was so we could communicate better. I don't like to thump my chest in public so I thought it better to share with him in private. Sorry that you took it the way you did. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Prior Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:46 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Thanks for the response and clarification, steve. -Ryan On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:35 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very simply If at this point in the delivery of freerunner I have to answer every posting about the next product, then the current product will not ship and the next will not ship. So I'm trying to structure a public dialog on the future product, in the future. On the other hand, I could of course stop everything I am doing on shipping freerunner and have nice long debates with everybody about what we should ship a year from now. Not going to do it So, I wanted to explain to him, I'm not ignoring his questions and explain a bit of the marketing background, basically personal stuff like what his experiences were and what my history was so we could communicate better. I don't like to thump my chest in public so I thought it better to share with him in private. Sorry that you took it the way you did. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Ryan Prior *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:46 PM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Lowell Higley *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Ya thanks Ian, Lowell is on travel and hopefully after he gets back we can figure out how to construct a viable dialogue on the issue. I think tapping his experience is very important. One day in a santa clara hotel Sean, will and I are sitting there and Will shows me these great YouTube Openmoko commercials. Made by a community member. And a bomb went off in my head. Open marketing! So, we placed the marketing assets under creative commons. And we will go beyond that to involve everybody as practicable. But when BusinessWeek calls and wants to talk to somebody, I cannot say, wait, let me see what everybody else thinks, and can we arrange a con call with 1M people. It's hard enough getting a press release out with 3 people arguing over words, much less 1M. So, there will be times I speak for the community without their explicit permission. And beg forgiveness when I tread on my own private parts. Roadmap is also difficult and let me explain why. If you ask people what they want, they will ask for the moon and naked dancing girls AND free beer. A noble goal. Now you lay a schedule and cost on that. You can have the moon in two years and it will cost you 699. per moon unit. So, people can share their wish list. It will go into the mix. But the final product is not the union of all wish lists. namely, free beer is out. So, we look at the range of possible configurations. We weigh what it costs, we weigh the schedule, we estimate the ROI based on marketing estimates. Not a lot of this is open, yet. My request to the community. Work with us. Don't ask for free beer, because we will not ship it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Darwin Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:26 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
thanks for explaining that to folks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stroller Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 2:01 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On 28 Apr 2008, at 17:54, hank williams wrote: I have to say my unvoiced thoughts were the same as Ryan's. I was not at all clear why a call for the community to help figure marketing stuff out would be met by a request to take the discussion off list as though it was somehow inappropriate for public discussion. It seemed like a very strange response. Now reading the responses to Ryan's comments seem even more strange. I feel like I am missing something because the responses to Ryan's comments seem on the surface, inappropriate as well. If you read further back in this thread you'll see that the subject changed in reply to my message, Re: Ugliness (26 April 2008 13:58:04 BST). If you read back you'll see that before that someone was complaining the Freerunner will never sell in the mass-market because me my friends think it's ugly, and my counterpoint was, heck, I'm sure FIC have done some market research (focus groups c). Lowell Higley obviously knows his stuff regarding selling tech products, and he raises some interesting points. I immediately wanted to reply to them, but I could have spent hours doing so. Not to argue with him, just to purse interesting avenues of discussion. But Lowell's insights are far more in depth than your average Xbox vs Playstation, who's-winning-the-format-war, fanbois' forum thread. As Lowell says: Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? In case you don't speak the business jargon, competitive analysis means how much does the competition sell for, how much will it cost us to make a similar product and how much profit can we make?. Business cases and the results of focus groups, say FIC stating that you your friends may think it's ugly, but we reckon we can sell XX thousand units and make $yyy profit aren't really any of our business. In his second message (27 April 2008 18:16:11 BST) Lowell raises the goal of the OpenMoko project, which is ostensibly the best possible mobile phone software stack that can be installed over a wide range of phones. But underlying that is the fact that the goal of FIC, in sponsoring OpenMoko, is to sell more phones and (like any business) make more profit. For any company this sort of information - the anticipated number of units sold, market breakdown c - is a trade secret, and I don't see why OpenMoko should be any different. In many cases this sort of information may be available to someone with experience in the industry (or reasonably estimable by them), but it may not be the sort of information that any company will publish casually. Whilst OpenMoko may be interested in public discussion of what we consumers want (colours, features c), whilst they may be interested in open discussion of ideas and whilst they're obviously prepared to give fuller and more dynamic feedback to us, how much money they're making on each phone is none of our business. I'm sure that Apple don't even tell their shareholders how much each iPod costs to build. When we buy FIC's OpenMoko products we're buying hardware that is guaranteed open-source, so that we can fix it ourselves. We're buying FIC's sponsorship of the programmers contributing to the OpenMoko codebase and we're buying a promise of warranty support in the future (we obviously hope that FIC will continue to sponsor updated firmware for our phones in the future, and we're pretty confident they're going to do so longer - and provider better feature updates - than Sony Ericson). Just as, in polite company, one doesn't ask one's friends or acquaintances how much they earn, it is likewise none of our business how much FIC makes out of each phone sake, and it seems to me that that's pretty much what the secrecy whiners on this thread are asking for (although they may not have actually realised that), Any company will provide inside information to the trade press - perhaps if you're able to demonstrate such informed questions as Lowell has then FIC'll invite you, too, to their opening presentations. You'll maybe have to sign an NDA, but you'll still be able to make oblique tips to your readers based on your improved vision of the mobile phone market place. What you have to do first
Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? I'm not saying this to throw dirt on the Openmoko project, just to point out that there is a LOT of work involved on the part of marketing. Most of it we never see and perhaps we shouldn't. Let's look at this another way.. I have spent most of my professional life in Silicon Valley... Home of Apple, Netscape, Google, and Yahoo, Between 1998 and 2001, I received invites almost weekly to interview with some new startup. Sometimes I would accept and go talk to them. In two years, I probably interviewed with 15 companies. I would always insist on talking with the Director of Engineering (or whatever his title was) prior to talking offer, etc. I would always ask the same question. Why do you want to hire a Marketing
RE: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lowell Higley Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner. Where's the MRD? Where's the focus group? Where's the business case? I'm not saying this to throw dirt on the Openmoko project, just to point out that there is a LOT of work involved on the part of marketing. Most of it we
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:48 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lowell, You can send me a personal mail and I will address your concerns. You are a valuable asset in the community and I value your opinion. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here and now is how to get the product that is actually built into people's hands. -- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Lowell Higley *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:16 AM *To:* List for Openmoko community discussion *Subject:* Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness) On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So please don't be offended but saying I don't like it and neither do my friends is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got their phone free from their mobile supplier, because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly? Do they care? I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts and you decide.. I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in product marketing. My specialty has been taking engineering driven projects and turning them into actual market driven products. I have come into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's salary that they would sell less than x products. Why? Because they had NO clue what the customers wanted. They just built what THEY wanted. Each time I made that bet, I won. No, I never collected the money but my point was made. When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have marketing polish I do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think. These people aren't my friends. Ok, some of them are but not many. No, it isn't a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based on the feedback I get from my little research projects. Just informal chats with people on their likes and dislikes. There was a statement someone made earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features down people's throats. VERY true statement. Unfortunately, the FreeRunner Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head. Consumers see the bling of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all based on cosmetcis and the wow factor. To make matters even worse, if you can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops (Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers. In Europe I think there is a better chance of that happening. In the US, the carriers LOVE their closed, crippled phones. The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative. Maybe this niche market it perfect for them? To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project. Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn) I do acknowledge at this point that we are NOT targeting consumers. That's ok. But if we all want this product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point. Who knows, perhaps Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the design was derived. I received no response from the core team but did get a heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which they did. That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of the prototype and Openmoko was born. If that story is true, I don't see any overt marketing involved there on FIC's part. Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy. There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements, negotiating with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the list goes on. My point is, as I look at things and put the picture together, I see
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Engineering Driven vs. Community Driven (was Re: Ugliness)
The community list is for getting phones into peoples' hands? Where has the actual community discussion gone, then? If there is need for a special purpose list to get phones into peoples' hands, it would not be hard to create one. Besides, it's not hard to share mailing list bandwidth between various purposes. I simply can't buy the notion that the community mailing list is not suited to community discussion at this time. I never said anything about a conspiracy - I just thought I'd point out that it strikes me as strange to respond to somebody's call to open up a process and involve the community by asking that person to make their communications private! On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Prior wrote: A synopsis: Lowell: Let's make this project community-driven. Steve: Please talk to me about it privately. WTF? Perhaps you didn't read this part: I'd rather take this offline with you, since the main focus here [meaning, on this discussion list, at this time] and now is how to get the product that is [already] built into people's hands. Then you can feed that back to people, agreeing or disagreeing as you see fit. Stop looking for conspiracies - there aren't any here. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
