Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Monday 02 March 2009, Margo Koppelmann wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Johny Tenfinger seba.d...@gmail.com wrote: Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money (ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen. Capacitive is not an option. But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the capacitive screen would not be a problem. Again that depends on usage scenario. For example can you sign your name with a trackball? Or use one with gloved hands? This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing technology; if there was then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios where GTA02 can't, and vice versa. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing technology; Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios where GTA02 can't, and vice versa. I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use resistive for? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Am Tuesday 03 March 2009 20:59:20 schrieb The Digital Pioneer: This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing technology; Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios where GTA02 can't, and vice versa. I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use resistive for? Capacitive screens just need really slight touches while resistive ones need a real pressure to register the click. Although I love the Neo, I really like using f.e. an iPod Touch because it feels _way_ better. Which might be also caused by the polished ui, but the touchscreen definitely influences that. -- Marcel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Well, there is no (massmarket) implementation of multi-touch using resistive touch technology. There has been one link in this thread to one that is being developed, but that technology was not yet finished if I remember correctly, and it was not licensed to any manufacturer of touch panels. A link to the resistive, work-in-progress, multi-touch: http://hackaday.com/2009/02/19/stantums-high-precision-multitouch/ But except for the multi-touch; the more durable argument is really important to me, at least.. I want to carry my phone with me everywhere, and I want it to be easily accessible everywhere which means I don't want to put it into a protective thingy, and I don't want to reach for my precision enhancing pointing device to use it. Best regards Anton On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 8:59 PM, The Digital Pioneer digitalpion...@gmail.com wrote: This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing technology; Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios where GTA02 can't, and vice versa. I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use resistive for? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Which is exactly why resistive can use fingers too. :P Just noting, I find it ironic that you talk of multi-touch resistive as being an unfinished technology, in relation to the Freerunner. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Well, the _hardware_ parts of any version of the free-runner are pretty darn rigid, no apt-get update to those.. So, updating the resistive touch panel to multi-touch is undoable; however much effort is put in by the software developers... The software parts don't need to be so finished though, since we have plenty of developers to go around... Albeit; we also have a gazilion projects lying around.. :-P Best regards Anton On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:27 PM, The Digital Pioneer digitalpion...@gmail.com wrote: Which is exactly why resistive can use fingers too. :P Just noting, I find it ironic that you talk of multi-touch resistive as being an unfinished technology, in relation to the Freerunner. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
William Kenworthy wrote: I can see the reasons for this ($'s in the door), but theres no reason the gta04 wont be more like what we want. Even if its still got a 640x480 screen, I wont be buying a gta03 unless it BOTH is an advance on the FR (which means it stays with a resistive screen), and I can actually see and test its working. (once bitten, twice ...) I don't plan on bying new phones too often, certainly not just because some new model came out. It'd ahve to have a clear advantage too. But there is nothing wrong in them having two lines of phone - one with hacker appeal and one with mass-market appeal to bring in the money. The hacker phones will be smaller series, but they attract people who does lots of free development. Lots of open-source apps, many which will work fine on the mass-market phones as well, making them more popular. If the mass-market phone succeeds, then they will be made in large series. That makes it possible to get more interesting parts, perhaps even 3G someday. Of course, some of these mass-purchased parts can go into the next small-series of hackerphones has well. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Johny Tenfinger seba.d...@gmail.com wrote: Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money (ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen. Capacitive is not an option. But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the capacitive screen would not be a problem. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the capacitive screen would not be a problem. then it would have been called G1. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Saturday, February 28, 2009 a las 02:48:24PM +0700, Sean McNeil escribió: Matthias Apitz wrote: ... That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels; This has nothing to do with Capacitive vs. Resistive. It has to do with resolution of the touchpad and size of area that touches the screen. You hit the point :-) in Resistive to hit a single pixel I can use a sharp stylus, while in Capacitive the 'pixel' is my finger; i.e. you need a much bigger touchpad if you want to touch with your finger only one pixel and if both should be of 480x640 pixels; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Friedrich Clausen wrote: As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in freedom) software stack. Right. For that to succeed I think a Capacitive screen is better since you only need your fingers and no special equipment. Wrong argument. The resistive screen doesn't need a stylus or other special equipment either. You can use the resistive screen with a finger only - no problem! The resistive screen gives you the _option_ of a stylus, for precision work. The capacitive screen doesn't give you the option. So the resistive screen has all the same options as the capacitive for finger-only use - capacitive has no advantage when it comes to fingers. And, personal opinions aside, the non-technical users in my social circle prefer the stylus free option. Sure. And that works equally well with either screen. Nobody want a stylus for simple things like making a call. And no screen demands that either. But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches. Capacitive screens won't give you the option. But, and this is one of the strengths of the Freerunner (+ future models), is the ability to run multiple distributions - we have hacker friendly distros with full keyboards and end-user distros with big friendly letters and smart ways to handle imprecision. Although the issue with capacitive screens remain - it appears that it is not possible to create a really small stylus for use with a small keyboard containing many buttons. In my very humble opinion, I believe that a worthy sacrifice in order to create more mass appeal for the Freerunner (+future models). If it gave a mass market appeal. If! But what it the appeal of a capacitive screen? Certainly not the stylus-free operation, as the current resistive screen also does that just fine. Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no wrote: Friedrich Clausen wrote: As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in freedom) software stack. Right. For that to succeed I think a Capacitive screen is better since you only need your fingers and no special equipment. Wrong argument. The resistive screen doesn't need a stylus or other special equipment either. You can use the resistive screen with a finger only - no problem! The resistive screen gives you the _option_ of a stylus, for precision work. The capacitive screen doesn't give you the option. So the resistive screen has all the same options as the capacitive for finger-only use - capacitive has no advantage when it comes to fingers. Thanks for your input - I was under the impression capacitive screens conferred some advantages regarding detecting when a finger is placed and when I finger is removed with regard to gestures. But I can't back up this argument because I can't find any solid references. So, I am conceding to the resistive argument for the time being and assuming they both perform the same way when using fingers . If so, then I too would say resistive gives more flexibility. Regards, Fred. And, personal opinions aside, the non-technical users in my social circle prefer the stylus free option. Sure. And that works equally well with either screen. Nobody want a stylus for simple things like making a call. And no screen demands that either. But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches. Capacitive screens won't give you the option. But, and this is one of the strengths of the Freerunner (+ future models), is the ability to run multiple distributions - we have hacker friendly distros with full keyboards and end-user distros with big friendly letters and smart ways to handle imprecision. Although the issue with capacitive screens remain - it appears that it is not possible to create a really small stylus for use with a small keyboard containing many buttons. In my very humble opinion, I believe that a worthy sacrifice in order to create more mass appeal for the Freerunner (+future models). If it gave a mass market appeal. If! But what it the appeal of a capacitive screen? Certainly not the stylus-free operation, as the current resistive screen also does that just fine. Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 13:35 +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 01:15:01PM +0100, Friedrich Clausen escribió: On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no wrote: Friedrich Clausen wrote: As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in freedom) software stack. Right. ... Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to capacitive screen, IMHO Openmoko should consider our opinion and come up with a clear statement about and some explanation why they want us move to a screen where we will loose precision, at least, if such a decision was really taken. Thanks in advance matthias Around the time the FR was released, some preliminary discussions were made on the list about the gta03. It was to be a perhaps lower specced device in some areas, but add camera and perhaps a lower res screen - was to be a mass item rather than aimed at the technologically literate. I can see the reasons for this ($'s in the door), but theres no reason the gta04 wont be more like what we want. Even if its still got a 640x480 screen, I wont be buying a gta03 unless it BOTH is an advance on the FR (which means it stays with a resistive screen), and I can actually see and test its working. (once bitten, twice ...) BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to capacitive screen, I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we can say is this: - Capacitive touch screens have some advantages - Resistive touch screens have some advantages - They *both* have disadvantages Different features are more important to different people, so some will prefer resistive and some will prefer capacitive. It's up to openmoko to make their decision which way to go depending on what they think their device should do. What is clear from the discussion (and previous discussions about the same thing) is that the community is divided in this issue, we can't recommend either way just give our opinions. Some people will want built in rocket launchers in their phone, some will want a phone shaped as a flying pig. But not all. So as far as I'm concerned: Please make the decision, dear Openmoko, and be sure that the community will be happy and disappointed whatever way you decide to go. And I think further discussion of this topic is meaningless now. // Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too. moreover a(some?) resistive screen can have multitouch: http://hackaday.com/2009/02/19/stantums-high-precision-multitouch/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Helge Hafting wrote: But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches. Capacitive screens won't give you the option. +1 for handwriting. Bonus point for usable recognition. A stylus attached/embedded in the case would be nice. Quite frankly, I just hope OM becomes successful enough to produce different models. If they believe that capacitive is the way to for the next device to grow market share, all the power to them. I should add that is not so obvious to me after this discussion. I suspect the key is more into distribution and arrangements with network companies. Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 02:43:30PM +0100, Simon Kagstrom escribió: On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to capacitive screen, I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we can say is this: - Capacitive touch screens have some advantages - Resistive touch screens have some advantages - They *both* have disadvantages ... That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels; this will change the FR from the hacker toy it is now, to just another stupid mobile phone like an iPod or Nokia one; and we will not have anymore a small Linux desktop in our pockets; of course it stays Linux and I can SSH to it, put not always I have another laptop or my eeePC with me; I think OpenMoko should keep that in mind; it would be a big change in a wrong direction; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 02:43:30PM +0100, Simon Kagstrom escribió: On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to capacitive screen, I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we can say is this: - Capacitive touch screens have some advantages - Resistive touch screens have some advantages - They *both* have disadvantages ... That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels; This has nothing to do with Capacitive vs. Resistive. It has to do with resolution of the touchpad and size of area that touches the screen. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:46 , Pander wrote: Steve 'dillo Okay wrote: On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote: Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking for another. A stylus wouldn't be such a problem if there was a place in the device to store it. General users haven't had to use a stylus in years. The UI for most phones has been either a keypad or finger for a while now. If the GTA03 is going to use a stylus, is it possible to have the shell molded with a holder built-in ? Its fun using all sorts of things as a precision stylus for terminal keyboard. Zipper of my jacket, plastic coffee stir thingy, etc. I'm even thinking of mounting something on my gloves to use the device in winter outside. Years ago, during the Palm era, there was a company that sold a little stylus that you put on your finger like a ring and there was a point at the end to tap on the screen with. Somebody probably still make this. I actually prefer to use a proper stylus since zipper pulls and such risk scratching the screen. Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 08:46:54AM +0100, Pander escribió: Steve 'dillo Okay wrote: On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote: Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias Ever used an iPhone? No, I've never used an iPhone, and I will not. Have you ever used the Terminal of the Moko to keyin UNIX commands? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. If you have a keyboard of Terminal-style let's asume it occupies half of the screen, i.e. 320x480 pixel, then the keys are to small to be hit without a stylus, perhaps not even with that special stylus for Capacitive screens someone was pointing me to (don't know, but it has 6.5mm of size the page says); so, please no Capacitive screen for me either in the GTA03; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Margo Koppelmann wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Shawn Trash Thompson mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote: Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. The difference between iphone and freerunner is that the software on iphone is specially designed and written for the iphone, but on freerunner you can run almost any linux software. How would you for example play Numpty Physics on a capacitive screen? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on the FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish between clicks or drags. I found that the only semi-accurate method of input on my FR is the stylus that is included, without it the phone is virtually useless to me and with it a pain to use. I continue to use my samsung 409 flip-phone because I can easily navigate and even using that annoying T9 input method is still 100x faster than my FR with or without the stylus. I'm glad to see the GTA03 going to capacitive, I might be able to make use of the screen for once. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:55, Shawn Trash Thompson mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote: Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on the FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish between clicks or drags. My fingers work great on the FreeRunner, but not so on the iPhone... And I can't imagine developing (for instance in python - shr-settings) on iPhone screen... but on FreeRunner I'm doing it. In train, waiting for dentist etc. ;) And the only thing I need for that is touchscreen filtering in kernel, introduced nearly in past. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Pander wrote: Shawn Trash Thompson wrote: Margo Koppelmann wrote: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Shawn Trash Thompson mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote: Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. The difference between iphone and freerunner is that the software on iphone is specially designed and written for the iphone, but on freerunner you can run almost any linux software. How would you for example play Numpty Physics on a capacitive screen? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on the FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish between clicks or drags. I found that the only semi-accurate method of input on my FR is the stylus that is included, without it the phone is virtually useless to me and with it a pain to use. I continue to use my samsung 409 flip-phone because I can easily navigate and even using that annoying T9 input method is still 100x faster than my FR with or without the stylus. I'm glad to see the GTA03 going to capacitive, I might be able to make use of the screen for once. Proposition: GTA03T = touch screen GTA03C = capacitive screen I could live with that, I prefer capacitive screens after having used both kinds. I'd by the 03C assuming it has had the major issues of the 02 fixed before it launches. Having payed the high price and not been able to use it as a daily phone for more than a few days at a time since purchase I'm about ready to put it back up for sale if improvements don't really keep rolling forward soon. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 10:44:02AM +0100, Pander escribió: Have you ever used the Terminal of the Moko to keyin UNIX commands? I've been using the Freerunner without a stylus for months now. And I've used the terminal quite a lot, as well as inputing http addresses. All you need is a better terminal keyboard (with bigger keys). I posted my custom layout here some weeks ago. In opkg.org are plenty of alternative keyboard: - alt alhpanumeric/default http://www.opkg.org/package_101.html - alt numeric http://www.opkg.org/package_106.html - alt terminal http://www.opkg.org/package_87.html The first two being vervy finger friendly, the latter being stylus friendly ;) Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus that's the situation at the moment; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus that's the situation at the moment; But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it? BTW. I'm using Terminal layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:23:48AM +0100, Johny Tenfinger escribió: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus that's the situation at the moment; But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it? Sorry no having expressed this: yes, it is a good situation! and I don't want to have changed it; BTW. I'm using Terminal layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P I've tried it; it does not work with my fingers; how do you do that? do you have some movie of this? matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote: [...] Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it doesn't know UNIX keywords. Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords. Who decided that the predictive keyboard would be the default ? Or alternatively, how do you set the Terminal keyboard to be the default ? Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:38:45AM +0100, Steve 'dillo Okay escribió: On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote: [...] Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it doesn't know UNIX keywords. Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords. Who decided that the predictive keyboard would be the default ? for UNIX you need chars and not predictive words, I think; Or alternatively, how do you set the Terminal keyboard to be the default ? # cd /usr/lib/enlightenment/modules/illume/keyboards # mv Default.kbd Default.kbd.orig # cp Terminal.kbd Default.kbd # killall -HUP enlightenment matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:23:48AM +0100, Johny Tenfinger escribió: On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus that's the situation at the moment; But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it? Sorry no having expressed this: yes, it is a good situation! and I don't want to have changed it; BTW. I'm using Terminal layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P I've tried it; it does not work with my fingers; how do you do that? do you have some movie of this? Use the tip of the nail of your index finger. matthias ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Steve 'dillo Okay wrote: On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote: [...] Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it doesn't know UNIX keywords. Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords. UNIX keywords - yes. Including all the options - with some work. But every filename in every filesystem I might mount? Won't happen. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or pocket. Won't capacitive react to metal keys? Anyway, this is not a problem with the FR either - I lock it with the AUX button before it goes in my pocket. No accidental touch then. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
I personally need my precision. I carry my stylus with me all the time, it's not really a problem. As to a predictive terminal keyboard, why are we considering the feasibility of a dictionary with all the filenames and whatnot? Just integrate tab-completion. Populate the suggestion list with the results of 'tab-tab' on the terminal. Shouldn't take too much hacking, I wouldn't think. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 02:03:13PM +0700, Sean McNeil wrote: Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch screens: http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm You call that a stylus? Scroll a little further down the page for some _real_ stylus examples. :) That thing is HUGE and uneeded. If you need something just as big, then you're ok with using the finger (unless you sweat a lot). Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or pocket. They also eliminate precision. That is a problem for some applications...for instances existing games: how would you be able to play to wesnoth? not with accelerometers... what about scummvm? same problem... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Well, I can't play SCUMMVM games as it is now. The mouse and stylus get WAY desynced and I can't click most of the screen. But that's a software bug, not a hardware issue. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 08:34:38AM +0100, Steve 'dillo Okay wrote: I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking for another. However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly better, for me and my usage: FEATURE CAPACITIVE RESISTIVE -- CAN use stylus NO(1) YES CAN use finger YES YES Stylus is OPTIONAL N/A(1) YES Has PRECISION NO YES Notes: (1) that stylus that circulates around is more a plastic finger than a stylus For my usage, it's a clear win for the resistive screen. ATTENTION: I do write text messages in english or portuguese with Rasterman's keyboard with a custom keyset and portuguese dictionary. I find it great, quick, and am able to type while walking, the stylus problem is NOT for writing natural language texts, only for terminal-like appliccations and precision requirements. Rui -- Wibble. Today is Boomtime, the 57th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:33:22PM +0100, GNUtoo wrote: Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or pocket. They also eliminate precision. That is a problem for some applications...for instances existing games: how would you be able to play to wesnoth? not with accelerometers... what about scummvm? same problem... Also for signing you name (scenario), network drawings (which I use at meetings), etc... Rui -- Or is it? Today is Boomtime, the 57th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
While I'd like a capacitive touch screen for GTA03, I'm pretty sure that Openmoko has already made up its mind for one of the solutions and I don't think we can change it here. I'm fine with that. On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:10 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly better, for me and my usage: FEATURECAPACITIVE RESISTIVE -- CAN use stylus NO(1) YES CAN use finger YES YES Stylus is OPTIONAL N/A(1) YES Has PRECISION NO YES There are other features which other people will value more. For me, scratch-resistance is important for example - which is easier to get with capacitive touch screens. // Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thursday 26 February 2009, Shawn Trash Thompson wrote: Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. I've tried both the iPhone and the G1, and the touch response was equally bad. They don't work well with my fingers. Perhaps my finger tips are too small, too dry, or the skin too thick, but my touches often just don't register. That's before getting to the lack of precision or the inability to use them while wearing gloves. Gloves are a real issue when I'm on my bike or snowboarding, but not detecting my fingertips would be a problem very day. Apple have produced an interface where the lack of precision (mostly) doesn't matter in their apps. I found the keyboard very frustrating, but that may have been down to not knowing some of its intricacies, as it was when I first encountered the illume keyboard. On the other hand the iPhone doesn't get to run apps that weren't designed for it, and which may actually need the precision. I'm not denying the advantages of capacitive touchscreens, but they do have drawbacks too. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Simon Kagstrom schrieb: While I'd like a capacitive touch screen for GTA03, I'm pretty sure that Openmoko has already made up its mind for one of the solutions and I don't think we can change it here. I'm fine with that. On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:10 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly better, for me and my usage: FEATURE CAPACITIVE RESISTIVE -- CAN use stylus NO(1) YES CAN use finger YES YES Stylus is OPTIONAL N/A(1) YES Has PRECISIONNO YES There are other features which other people will value more. For me, scratch-resistance is important for example - which is easier to get with capacitive touch screens. // Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community a little OT, but... why have you folks been waitong for so long to discuss/complain about that it's been in the wiki for weeks(months?)? i mean regarding finger input and the like... capacitive is lightyears ahead, but the openmoko phones are portable computers with integrated modem (talking about debian**) and i a have to choose between carrying a mouse an kdb aound or carrying a tiny stylus around, i'd go for the stylus. as a daily phone, capacitive is way more comfortable, but i've been using my moko as a daily phone with no problems and no sytlus either since november. a phone for the general public is better off having a capacitive touchscreen PERIOD. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:38:03 +0100 Bernd (Jesus McCloud) Prünster bernd.pruens...@gmail.com wrote: a little OT, but... why have you folks been waitong for so long to discuss/complain about that it's been in the wiki for weeks(months?)? It has been discussed on this list since at least last summer, MANY times. People disagree on this issue and it tends to end up in close-to-flamewars. // Simon ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money (ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen. Capacitive is not an option. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch screens: http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or pocket. Calibration used to be an issue, but resistive screens are made with pretty good tolerances now and don't often need recalibration once manufacturing goes into mass production. How a keyboard works with the iPhone is it expands a key on touch, lets you slide your finger if you missed the right one, then types in when you release. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 02:03:13PM +0700, Sean McNeil wrote: Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch screens: http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm You call that a stylus? Scroll a little further down the page for some _real_ stylus examples. :) That thing is HUGE and uneeded. If you need something just as big, then you're ok with using the finger (unless you sweat a lot). Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or pocket. They also eliminate precision. How a keyboard works with the iPhone is it expands a key on touch, lets you slide your finger if you missed the right one, then types in when you release. Which is freakishy horrible in my experience. Rui -- Keep the Lasagna flying! Today is Boomtime, the 57th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3175 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)
On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote: Matthias Apitz wrote: El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko escribió: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-(( matthias Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in comparison. I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking for another. A stylus wouldn't be such a problem if there was a place in the device to store it. General users haven't had to use a stylus in years. The UI for most phones has been either a keypad or finger for a while now. If the GTA03 is going to use a stylus, is it possible to have the shell molded with a holder built-in ? Steve Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community