Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread Al Johnson
On Monday 02 March 2009, Margo Koppelmann wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Johny Tenfinger seba.d...@gmail.com 
wrote:
  Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money
  (ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm
  not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using
  scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen.
  Capacitive is not an option.

 But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or
 trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the
 capacitive screen would not be a problem.

Again that depends on usage scenario. For example can you sign your name with 
a trackball? Or use one with gloved hands?

This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing technology; 
if there was then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Going to a capacitive 
screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios where GTA02 can't, and 
vice versa. 

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread The Digital Pioneer

 This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing
 technology;
 Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios
 where GTA02 can't, and vice versa.


I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I
haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do
with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to
capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all
but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use
resistive for?
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread Marcel
Am Tuesday 03 March 2009 20:59:20 schrieb The Digital Pioneer:
  This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing
  technology;
  Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some
  scenarios where GTA02 can't, and vice versa.

 I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I
 haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do
 with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to
 capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all
 but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use
 resistive for?

Capacitive screens just need really slight touches while resistive ones need a 
real pressure to register the click. Although I love the Neo, I really like 
using f.e. an iPod Touch because it feels _way_ better. Which might be also 
caused by the polished ui, but the touchscreen definitely influences that.

--
Marcel

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread Anton Persson
Well, there is no (massmarket) implementation of multi-touch using resistive
touch technology. There has been one link in this thread to
one that is being developed, but that technology was not yet finished if I
remember correctly, and it was not licensed to any manufacturer
of touch panels.

A link to the resistive, work-in-progress, multi-touch:

http://hackaday.com/2009/02/19/stantums-high-precision-multitouch/

But except for the multi-touch; the more durable argument is really
important to me, at least.. I want to carry my phone with me
everywhere, and I want it to be easily accessible everywhere which means I
don't want to put it into a protective thingy, and I don't
want to reach for my precision enhancing pointing device to use it.

Best regards
  Anton

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 8:59 PM, The Digital Pioneer 
digitalpion...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a case where there is AFAIK no one size fits all sensing
 technology;
 Going to a capacitive screen will allow GTA03 to be used in some scenarios
 where GTA02 can't, and vice versa.


 I've been following this with mild interest for a while, and so far I
 haven't really seen anything you can do with capacitive that you can't do
 with resistive... Did I miss something? It seems the only benefit to
 capacitive is that it can be more durable, and accidental touches are all
 but eliminated. What scenario can you use capacitive for that you can't use
 resistive for?

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread The Digital Pioneer
Which is exactly why resistive can use fingers too. :P

Just noting, I find it ironic that you talk of multi-touch resistive as
being an unfinished technology, in relation to the Freerunner. :)
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-03 Thread Anton Persson
Well, the _hardware_ parts of any version of the free-runner are pretty darn
rigid, no apt-get update to those.. So, updating
the resistive touch panel to multi-touch is undoable; however much effort is
put in by the software developers... The
software parts don't need to be so finished though, since we have plenty of
developers to go around... Albeit; we also
have a gazilion projects lying around.. :-P

   Best regards
 Anton

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:27 PM, The Digital Pioneer 
digitalpion...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which is exactly why resistive can use fingers too. :P

 Just noting, I find it ironic that you talk of multi-touch resistive as
 being an unfinished technology, in relation to the Freerunner. :)

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-02 Thread Helge Hafting
William Kenworthy wrote:

 I can see the reasons for this ($'s in the door), but theres no reason
 the gta04 wont be more like what we want.  Even if its still got a
 640x480 screen, I wont be buying a gta03 unless it BOTH is an advance on
 the FR (which means it stays with a resistive screen), and I can
 actually see and test its working. (once bitten, twice ...)

I don't plan on bying new phones too often, certainly not just because 
some new model came out. It'd ahve to have a clear advantage too.

But there is nothing wrong in them having two lines of phone - one with 
hacker appeal and one with mass-market appeal to bring in the money.

The hacker phones will be smaller series, but they attract people who 
does lots of free development. Lots of open-source apps, many which will 
work fine on the mass-market phones as well, making them more popular.

If the mass-market phone succeeds, then they will be made in large 
series. That makes it possible to get more interesting parts, perhaps 
even 3G someday. Of course, some of these mass-purchased parts can go 
into the next small-series of hackerphones has well.

Helge Hafting


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-02 Thread Margo Koppelmann
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Johny Tenfinger seba.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money
 (ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm
 not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using
 scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen.
 Capacitive is not an option.

But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or
trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the
capacitive screen would not be a problem.

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-03-02 Thread arne anka
 But if the GTA03 would have a hardware keyboard and some joystick or
 trackball or something like this to use as a mouse, then the
 capacitive screen would not be a problem.

then it would have been called G1.

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-28 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Saturday, February 28, 2009 a las 02:48:24PM +0700, Sean McNeil escribió:

 Matthias Apitz wrote:
 
  ...
 
 That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that
 with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control
 this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly
 to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels;
   
 
 This has nothing to do with Capacitive vs. Resistive. It has to do with 
 resolution of the touchpad and size of area that touches the screen.

You hit the point :-)
in Resistive to hit a single pixel I can use a sharp stylus, while in Capacitive
the 'pixel' is my finger; i.e. you need a much bigger touchpad if you
want to touch with your finger only one pixel and if both should be
of 480x640 pixels;

matthias
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Helge Hafting
Friedrich Clausen wrote:

 As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to
 give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in
 freedom) software stack.
Right.

 For that to succeed I think a Capacitive
 screen is better since you only need your fingers and no special
 equipment.
Wrong argument.
The resistive screen doesn't need a stylus or other special equipment 
either. You can use the resistive screen with a finger only - no problem!

The resistive screen gives you the _option_ of a stylus, for precision 
work. The capacitive screen doesn't give you the option.

So the resistive screen has all the same options as the capacitive for 
finger-only use - capacitive has no advantage when it comes to fingers.

 And, personal opinions aside, the non-technical users in my
 social circle prefer the stylus free option.
 
Sure. And that works equally well with either screen.

Nobody want a stylus for simple things like making a call. And no screen 
demands that either.

But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a 
stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches.  Capacitive screens 
won't give you the option.

 But, and this is one of the strengths of the Freerunner (+ future
 models), is the ability to run multiple distributions - we  have
 hacker friendly distros with full keyboards and end-user distros with
 big friendly letters and smart ways to handle imprecision.
 
 Although the issue with capacitive screens remain - it appears that it
 is not possible to create a really small stylus for use with a small
 keyboard containing many buttons. In my very humble opinion, I believe
 that a worthy sacrifice in order to create more mass appeal for the
 Freerunner (+future models).

If it gave a mass market appeal. If! But what it the appeal of a 
capacitive screen? Certainly not the stylus-free operation, as the 
current resistive screen also does that just fine.

Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too.

Helge Hafting


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Friedrich Clausen
On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no wrote:
 Friedrich Clausen wrote:

 As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to
 give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in
 freedom) software stack.
 Right.

 For that to succeed I think a Capacitive
 screen is better since you only need your fingers and no special
 equipment.
 Wrong argument.
 The resistive screen doesn't need a stylus or other special equipment
 either. You can use the resistive screen with a finger only - no problem!

 The resistive screen gives you the _option_ of a stylus, for precision
 work. The capacitive screen doesn't give you the option.

 So the resistive screen has all the same options as the capacitive for
 finger-only use - capacitive has no advantage when it comes to fingers.

Thanks for your input - I was under the impression capacitive screens
conferred some advantages regarding detecting when a finger is placed
and when I finger is removed with regard to gestures. But I can't back
up this argument because I can't find any solid references.

So, I am conceding to the resistive argument for the time being and
assuming they both perform the same way when using fingers . If so,
then I too would say resistive gives more flexibility.

Regards,

Fred.

 And, personal opinions aside, the non-technical users in my
 social circle prefer the stylus free option.

 Sure. And that works equally well with either screen.

 Nobody want a stylus for simple things like making a call. And no screen
 demands that either.

 But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a
 stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches.  Capacitive screens
 won't give you the option.

 But, and this is one of the strengths of the Freerunner (+ future
 models), is the ability to run multiple distributions - we  have
 hacker friendly distros with full keyboards and end-user distros with
 big friendly letters and smart ways to handle imprecision.

 Although the issue with capacitive screens remain - it appears that it
 is not possible to create a really small stylus for use with a small
 keyboard containing many buttons. In my very humble opinion, I believe
 that a worthy sacrifice in order to create more mass appeal for the
 Freerunner (+future models).

 If it gave a mass market appeal. If! But what it the appeal of a
 capacitive screen? Certainly not the stylus-free operation, as the
 current resistive screen also does that just fine.

 Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too.

 Helge Hafting


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread William Kenworthy
On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 13:35 +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 01:15:01PM +0100, Friedrich Clausen 
 escribió:
 
  On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no 
  wrote:
   Friedrich Clausen wrote:
  
   As far as I can see, the ultimate goal of the OpenMoko project is to
   give everyone the chance to use a phone with a completely free (as in
   freedom) software stack.
   Right.
  

 ...
 
 Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with
 resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to
 capacitive screen, IMHO Openmoko should consider our opinion and come up
 with a clear statement about and some explanation why they want us move
 to a screen where we will loose precision, at least, if such a decision was
 really taken.
 
 Thanks in advance
 
   matthias


Around the time the FR was released, some preliminary discussions were
made on the list about the gta03.  It was to be a perhaps lower specced
device in some areas, but add camera and perhaps a lower res screen -
was to be a mass item rather than aimed at the technologically literate.

I can see the reasons for this ($'s in the door), but theres no reason
the gta04 wont be more like what we want.  Even if its still got a
640x480 screen, I wont be buying a gta03 unless it BOTH is an advance on
the FR (which means it stays with a resistive screen), and I can
actually see and test its working. (once bitten, twice ...)

BillK




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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Simon Kagstrom
On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:

 Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with
 resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to
 capacitive screen,

I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we
can say is this:

- Capacitive touch screens have some advantages
- Resistive touch screens have some advantages
- They *both* have disadvantages

Different features are more important to different people, so some
will prefer resistive and some will prefer capacitive. It's up to
openmoko to make their decision which way to go depending on what they
think their device should do. What is clear from the discussion (and
previous discussions about the same thing) is that the community is
divided in this issue, we can't recommend either way just give our
opinions.

Some people will want built in rocket launchers in their phone, some
will want a phone shaped as a flying pig. But not all.


So as far as I'm concerned: Please make the decision, dear Openmoko,
and be sure that the community will be happy and disappointed whatever
way you decide to go. And I think further discussion of this topic is
meaningless now.

// Simon

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread GNUtoo
 Capacitive enforce stylus-free operation, resistive allows it too.
moreover a(some?) resistive screen can have multitouch:
http://hackaday.com/2009/02/19/stantums-high-precision-multitouch/


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Fernando Martins
Helge Hafting wrote:
 But even non-techies may like some of the things you can do with a 
 stylus. Such as handwriting, or drawing sketches.  Capacitive screens 
 won't give you the option.

   
+1 for handwriting. Bonus point for usable recognition. A stylus 
attached/embedded in the case would be nice.

Quite frankly, I just hope OM becomes successful enough to produce 
different models.

If they believe that capacitive is the way to for the next device to 
grow market share, all the power to them. I should add that is not so 
obvious to me after this discussion. I suspect the key is more into 
distribution and arrangements with network companies.


Fernando

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 02:43:30PM +0100, Simon Kagstrom 
escribió:

 On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:
 
  Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with
  resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to
  capacitive screen,
 
 I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we
 can say is this:
 
 - Capacitive touch screens have some advantages
 - Resistive touch screens have some advantages
 - They *both* have disadvantages

...

That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that
with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control
this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly
to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels;

this will change the FR from the hacker toy it is now, to just another stupid
mobile phone like an iPod or Nokia one; and we will not have anymore a
small Linux desktop in our pockets; of course it stays Linux and I can
SSH to it, put not always I have another laptop or my eeePC with me;

I think OpenMoko should keep that in mind; it would be a big change in a
wrong direction;

matthias

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Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-27 Thread Sean McNeil
Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Friday, February 27, 2009 a las 02:43:30PM +0100, Simon Kagstrom 
 escribió:

   
 On 2/27/09, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:

 
 Ok, as I think that we have now exchanged enough good arguments to stay with
 resistive in GTA03 and I have not seen any strong argument to move to
 capacitive screen,
   
 I don't think we can draw this conclusion, it's your opinion. What we
 can say is this:

 - Capacitive touch screens have some advantages
 - Resistive touch screens have some advantages
 - They *both* have disadvantages
 

   ...

 That's to simple saying some/other advantages; the key point is that
 with a capacitive touch screens we will loose the possibility to control
 this as any other X11 server, i.e. being able to point and click nearly
 to a single pixel, or at least select a very small square of 2x2 pixels;
   

This has nothing to do with Capacitive vs. Resistive. It has to do with 
resolution of the touchpad and size of area that touches the screen.


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay

On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:46 , Pander wrote:

 Steve  'dillo Okay wrote:
 On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote:

 Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick
 Moko escribió:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http://
 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
 Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with
 a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one
 having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including
 Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how
 should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes
 from? :-(( matthias
 Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui
 is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond
 of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's
 touchscreen in comparison.

 I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find
 I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking
 for another.
 A stylus wouldn't be such a problem if there was a place in the
 device to store it.  General users haven't had to use a stylus in
 years. The UI for most
 phones has been either a keypad or finger for a while now.  If the
 GTA03 is going to use a stylus, is it possible to have the shell
 molded with a holder built-in ?

 Its fun using all sorts of things as a precision stylus for terminal
 keyboard. Zipper of my jacket, plastic coffee stir thingy, etc. I'm  
 even
 thinking of mounting something on my gloves to use the device in  
 winter
 outside.

Years ago, during the Palm era, there was a company
that sold a little stylus that you put on your finger like a ring and  
there was a point at the end to tap
on the screen with.  Somebody probably still make this.
I actually prefer to use a proper stylus since zipper pulls and such  
risk scratching the screen.

Steve


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 08:46:54AM +0100, Pander escribió:

 Steve  'dillo Okay wrote:
  On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote:
  
  Matthias Apitz wrote:
  El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick  
  Moko escribió:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http:// 
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
  Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with  
  a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one  
  having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including  
  Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how  
  should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes  
  from? :-(( matthias
  Ever used an iPhone?

No, I've never used an iPhone, and I will not.
Have you ever used the Terminal of the Moko to keyin UNIX commands?

  their screen is nice, responsive and the gui  
  is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond  
  of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's  
  touchscreen in comparison.

If you have a keyboard of Terminal-style let's asume it occupies half of
the screen, i.e. 320x480 pixel, then the keys are to small to be hit
without a stylus, perhaps not even with that special stylus for
Capacitive screens someone was pointing me to (don't know, but it has
6.5mm of size the page says);

so, please no Capacitive screen for me either in the GTA03;

matthias

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Shawn Trash Thompson

Margo Koppelmann wrote:

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Shawn Trash Thompson
mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote:
  

Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is
designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the
iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in
comparison.




The difference between iphone and freerunner is that the software on
iphone is specially designed and written for the iphone, but on
freerunner you can run almost any linux software. How would you for
example play Numpty Physics on a capacitive screen?

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Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on 
the FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the 
Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish 
between clicks or drags.


I found that the only semi-accurate method of input on my FR is the 
stylus that is included, without it the phone is virtually useless to me 
and with it a pain to use. I continue to use my samsung 409 flip-phone 
because I can easily navigate and even using that annoying T9 input 
method is still 100x faster than my FR with or without the stylus. I'm 
glad to see the GTA03 going to capacitive, I might be able to make use 
of the screen for once.
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Johny Tenfinger
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:55, Shawn Trash Thompson
mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote:
 Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on the
 FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the
 Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish
 between clicks or drags.

My fingers work great on the FreeRunner, but not so on the iPhone...
And I can't imagine developing (for instance in python - shr-settings)
on iPhone screen... but on FreeRunner I'm doing it. In train, waiting
for dentist etc. ;) And the only thing I need for that is touchscreen
filtering in kernel, introduced nearly in past.

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Shawn Trash Thompson

Pander wrote:

Shawn Trash Thompson wrote:
  

Margo Koppelmann wrote:


On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Shawn Trash Thompson
mokowa...@projektenterprises.com wrote:
  
  

Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is
designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the
iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in
comparison.




The difference between iphone and freerunner is that the software on
iphone is specially designed and written for the iphone, but on
freerunner you can run almost any linux software. How would you for
example play Numpty Physics on a capacitive screen?

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Point taken but my fat fingers work great on the iPhone and not so on
the FR. Also it often registers my drag on the FR as a click whereas the
Capacitive touchscreen of the iPhone and T-Mobile G1 easily distinguish
between clicks or drags.

I found that the only semi-accurate method of input on my FR is the
stylus that is included, without it the phone is virtually useless to me
and with it a pain to use. I continue to use my samsung 409 flip-phone
because I can easily navigate and even using that annoying T9 input
method is still 100x faster than my FR with or without the stylus. I'm
glad to see the GTA03 going to capacitive, I might be able to make use
of the screen for once.



Proposition:

GTA03T = touch screen
GTA03C = capacitive screen


  
I could live with that, I prefer capacitive screens after having used 
both kinds. I'd by the 03C assuming it has had the major issues of the 
02 fixed before it launches.


Having payed the high price and not been able to use it as a daily phone 
for more than a few days at a time since purchase I'm about ready to put 
it back up for sale if improvements don't really keep rolling forward soon.
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 10:44:02AM +0100, Pander escribió:

  Have you ever used the Terminal of the Moko to keyin UNIX commands?
  
  
  I've been using the Freerunner without a stylus for months now. And I've
  used the terminal quite a lot, as well as inputing http addresses. All
  you need is a better terminal keyboard (with bigger keys). I posted my
  custom layout here some weeks ago.
 
 In opkg.org are plenty of alternative keyboard:
 - alt alhpanumeric/default http://www.opkg.org/package_101.html
 - alt numeric http://www.opkg.org/package_106.html
 - alt terminal http://www.opkg.org/package_87.html
 
 The first two being vervy finger friendly, the latter being stylus
 friendly ;)

 Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
 Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus

that's the situation at the moment;

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH
Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/
b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Johny Tenfinger
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:
  Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
  Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
 Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus

 that's the situation at the moment;

But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it? BTW. I'm using Terminal
layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:23:48AM +0100, Johny Tenfinger 
escribió:

 On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:
   Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
   Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
  Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus
 
  that's the situation at the moment;
 
 But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it?

Sorry no having expressed this: yes, it is a good situation! and I don't
want to have changed it;

 BTW. I'm using Terminal
 layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P

I've tried it; it does not work with my fingers; how do you do that? do
you have some movie of this?

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH
Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/
b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay

On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote:

[...]



  Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
  Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
 Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus

Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it  
doesn't know UNIX keywords.
Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords.  Who  
decided that the predictive keyboard would be the default ?

Or alternatively, how do you set the Terminal keyboard to be the  
default ?

Steve

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Matthias Apitz
El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:38:45AM +0100, Steve  'dillo Okay 
escribió:

 
 On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote:
 
 [...]
 
 
 
  Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
  Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
 Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus
 
 Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it  
 doesn't know UNIX keywords.
 Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords.  Who  
 decided that the predictive keyboard would be the default ?

for UNIX you need chars and not predictive words, I think;

 Or alternatively, how do you set the Terminal keyboard to be the  
 default ?

# cd /usr/lib/enlightenment/modules/illume/keyboards
# mv Default.kbd Default.kbd.orig
# cp Terminal.kbd Default.kbd
# killall -HUP enlightenment

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH
Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
e matthias.ap...@oclc.org - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/
b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Pander
Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Thursday, February 26, 2009 a las 11:23:48AM +0100, Johny Tenfinger 
 escribió:
 
 On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:20, Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote:
  Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
  Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
 Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus

 that's the situation at the moment;
 But... it's normal, good situation. Isn't it?
 
 Sorry no having expressed this: yes, it is a good situation! and I don't
 want to have changed it;
 
 BTW. I'm using Terminal
 layout without stylus. It isn't difficult ;P
 
 I've tried it; it does not work with my fingers; how do you do that? do
 you have some movie of this?

Use the tip of the nail of your index finger.

 
   matthias


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Helge Hafting
Steve  'dillo Okay wrote:
 On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:20 , Matthias Apitz wrote:
 
 [...]
 
  Default: unuseable for terminal/UNIX input
  Numbers: unuseable for terminal/UNIX, not even for SMS
 Terminal: useable for terminal/UNIX, but only with stylus
 
 Hmmmit seems as if the problem with the default is that it  
 doesn't know UNIX keywords.
 Is it possible to populate the dictionary with UNIX keywords.

UNIX keywords - yes. Including all the options - with some work. But 
every filename in every filesystem I might mount? Won't happen.

Helge Hafting

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Helge Hafting

 Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as 
 they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or 
 pocket. 
Won't capacitive react to metal keys?

Anyway, this is not a problem with the FR either - I lock it with the 
AUX button before it goes in my pocket. No accidental touch then.

Helge Hafting

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread The Digital Pioneer
I personally need my precision. I carry my stylus with me all the time, it's
not really a problem.

As to a predictive terminal keyboard, why are we considering the feasibility
of a dictionary with all the filenames and whatnot? Just integrate
tab-completion. Populate the suggestion list with the results of 'tab-tab'
on the terminal. Shouldn't take too much hacking, I wouldn't think.
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread GNUtoo
 On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 02:03:13PM +0700, Sean McNeil wrote:
 Matthias Apitz wrote:
  El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick
 Moko escribió:
 
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive
  vs
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
 
 
  Thanks;
 
  But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus
 pen?
  I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys
  like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...)
  and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this
 idea,
  GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-((
 
 matthias
 

 What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch
 screens:

 http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm

 You call that a stylus? Scroll a little further down the page for
 some _real_ stylus examples. :)

 That thing is HUGE and uneeded. If you need something just as big, then
 you're ok with using the finger (unless you sweat a lot).

 Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as
 they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or
 pocket.

 They also eliminate precision.
That is a problem for some applications...for instances existing games:
how would you be able to play to wesnoth? not with accelerometers...
what about scummvm? same problem...


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread The Digital Pioneer
Well, I can't play SCUMMVM games as it is now. The mouse and stylus get WAY
desynced and I can't click most of the screen. But that's a software bug,
not a hardware issue.
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 08:34:38AM +0100, Steve  'dillo Okay wrote:
 I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find  
 I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking  
 for another.

However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly better,
for me and my usage:

FEATURE  CAPACITIVE   RESISTIVE
--
CAN use stylus  NO(1)   YES
CAN use finger  YES YES
Stylus is OPTIONAL  N/A(1)  YES
Has PRECISION   NO  YES

Notes:
 (1) that stylus that circulates around is more a plastic
 finger than a stylus

For my usage, it's a clear win for the resistive screen.

ATTENTION: I do write text messages in english or portuguese with
Rasterman's keyboard with a custom keyset and portuguese dictionary.
I find it great, quick, and am able to type while walking, the stylus
problem is NOT for writing natural language texts, only for
terminal-like appliccations and precision requirements.

Rui

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+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 03:33:22PM +0100, GNUtoo wrote:
  Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as
  they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or
  pocket.
 
  They also eliminate precision.

 That is a problem for some applications...for instances existing games:
 how would you be able to play to wesnoth? not with accelerometers...
 what about scummvm? same problem...

Also for signing you name (scenario), network drawings (which I use at
meetings), etc...

Rui

-- 
Or is it?
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+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Simon Kagstrom
While I'd like a capacitive touch screen for GTA03, I'm pretty sure
that Openmoko has already made up its mind for one of the solutions and
I don't think we can change it here. I'm fine with that.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:10 +
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote:

 However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly
 better, for me and my usage:
 
 FEATURECAPACITIVE   RESISTIVE
 --
 CAN use stylus  NO(1)   YES
 CAN use finger  YES YES
 Stylus is OPTIONAL  N/A(1)  YES
 Has PRECISION NO  YES

There are other features which other people will value more. For me,
scratch-resistance is important for example - which is easier to get
with capacitive touch screens.

// Simon

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Al Johnson
On Thursday 26 February 2009, Shawn Trash Thompson wrote:
 Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is
 designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the
 iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in
 comparison.

I've tried both the iPhone and the G1, and the touch response was equally bad. 
They don't work well with my fingers. Perhaps my finger tips are too small, 
too dry, or the skin too thick, but my touches often just don't register. 
That's before getting to the lack of precision or the inability to use them 
while wearing gloves. Gloves are a real issue when I'm on my bike or 
snowboarding, but not detecting my fingertips would be a problem very day.

Apple have produced an interface where the lack of precision (mostly) doesn't 
matter in their apps. I found the keyboard very frustrating, but that may have 
been down to not knowing some of its intricacies, as it was when I first 
encountered the illume keyboard. On the other hand the iPhone doesn't get to 
run apps that weren't designed for it, and which may actually need the 
precision.

I'm not denying the advantages of capacitive touchscreens, but they do have 
drawbacks too. 

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread
Simon Kagstrom schrieb:
 While I'd like a capacitive touch screen for GTA03, I'm pretty sure
 that Openmoko has already made up its mind for one of the solutions and
 I don't think we can change it here. I'm fine with that.

 On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:10 +
 Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote:

   
 However the following are what makes a resistive screen clearly
 better, for me and my usage:

 FEATURE   CAPACITIVE   RESISTIVE
 --
 CAN use stylus  NO(1)   YES
 CAN use finger  YES YES
 Stylus is OPTIONAL  N/A(1)  YES
 Has PRECISIONNO  YES
 

 There are other features which other people will value more. For me,
 scratch-resistance is important for example - which is easier to get
 with capacitive touch screens.

 // Simon

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a little OT, but... why have you folks been waitong for so long to 
discuss/complain about that it's been in the wiki for weeks(months?)?
i mean regarding finger input and the like... capacitive is lightyears 
ahead, but the openmoko phones are portable computers with integrated 
modem (talking about debian**) and i a have to choose between carrying a 
mouse an kdb aound or carrying a tiny stylus around, i'd go for the stylus.
as a daily phone, capacitive is  way more comfortable, but i've been 
using my moko as a daily phone with no problems and no sytlus either 
since november.

a phone for the general public is better off having a capacitive 
touchscreen PERIOD.

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Simon Kagstrom
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:38:03 +0100
Bernd (Jesus McCloud) Prünster bernd.pruens...@gmail.com wrote:

 a little OT, but... why have you folks been waitong for so long to 
 discuss/complain about that it's been in the wiki for weeks(months?)?

It has been discussed on this list since at least last summer, MANY
times. People disagree on this issue and it tends to end up in
close-to-flamewars.

// Simon

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-26 Thread Johny Tenfinger
Now I know, that I won't want to buy GTA03, even if I had enough money
(ok ok, if only i was some millionaire i would buy it, but until i'm
not, there are other possibilities to spend money :P). My using
scenario of touch screen of Linux based phone needs resistive screen.
Capacitive is not an option.

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-25 Thread Shawn Trash Thompson

Matthias Apitz wrote:

El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko 
escribió:

  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive
vs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive



Thanks;

But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen?
I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys
like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...)
and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea,
GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-((

matthias

  
Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui is 
designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond of the 
iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's touchscreen in 
comparison.
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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-25 Thread Sean McNeil
Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko 
 escribió:

   
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive
 vs
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
 

 Thanks;

 But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen?
 I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys
 like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...)
 and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea,
 GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-((

   matthias
   

What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch 
screens:

http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm

Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as 
they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or 
pocket. Calibration used to be an issue, but resistive screens are made 
with pretty good tolerances now and don't often need recalibration once 
manufacturing goes into mass production.

How a keyboard works with the iPhone is it expands a key on touch, lets 
you slide your finger if you missed the right one, then types in when 
you release.


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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-25 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 02:03:13PM +0700, Sean McNeil wrote:
 Matthias Apitz wrote:
  El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick Moko 
  escribió:
 

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive
  vs
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
  
 
  Thanks;
 
  But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with a stylus pen?
  I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one having all keys
  like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including Shift, SHift-Lock, ...)
  and using it with my finger tips; how should this work? Where this idea,
  GTA03 with Capacitive, comes from? :-((
 
  matthias

 
 What do you mean? You can get a stylus that works with capacitive touch 
 screens:
 
 http://songtak.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826112271/pdtl/PDA-styli/1006246576/Touch-Pen.htm

You call that a stylus? Scroll a little further down the page for
some _real_ stylus examples. :)

That thing is HUGE and uneeded. If you need something just as big, then
you're ok with using the finger (unless you sweat a lot).

 Just about all phone manufacturers are going to capacitive screens as 
 they virtually eliminate accidental touches in something like a purse or 
 pocket.

They also eliminate precision.

 How a keyboard works with the iPhone is it expands a key on touch, lets 
 you slide your finger if you missed the right one, then types in when 
 you release.

Which is freakishy horrible in my experience.

Rui

-- 
Keep the Lasagna flying!
Today is Boomtime, the 57th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3175
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

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Re: GTA03 Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)

2009-02-25 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay

On Feb 26, 2009, at 08:01 , Shawn Trash Thompson wrote:

 Matthias Apitz wrote:

 El día Wednesday, February 25, 2009 a las 06:36:31PM +0100, Yorick  
 Moko escribió:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Resistive vs http:// 
 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive
 Thanks; But: Do we really want a GTA03 which can't be managed with  
 a stylus pen? I can't imagine a 'Terminal' like keyboard (i.e. one  
 having all keys like the actual Om2008.9 'Terminal', including  
 Shift, SHift-Lock, ...) and using it with my finger tips; how  
 should this work? Where this idea, GTA03 with Capacitive, comes  
 from? :-(( matthias
 Ever used an iPhone? their screen is nice, responsive and the gui  
 is designed where a stylus isn't needed. I actually was rather fond  
 of the iPhone screen and was very unimpressed with the GTA02's  
 touchscreen in comparison.

I have to agree here. Styli are more a hindrance than a help. I find  
I'm always leaving my stylus or retracted pen somewhere and looking  
for another.
A stylus wouldn't be such a problem if there was a place in the  
device to store it.  General users haven't had to use a stylus in  
years. The UI for most
phones has been either a keypad or finger for a while now.  If the  
GTA03 is going to use a stylus, is it possible to have the shell  
molded with a holder built-in ?

Steve



Steve




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