JavaFX, Java3D, JOGL
To answer a question posed this weekend about JavaFX, once J2ME and J2SE are supported on OpenMoko, JavaFX would be fine as well as Java3D optimally. JOGL (Java OpenGL) would not be useful until NEO has a processor (Xscale) that has GPU/i3D functionality on-board... Walls. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Wallace Jackson wrote: Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? This seems not very likely: JavaFX is something highly advanced and build on the top of existing java platform. Even the ordinary java 1.5 seems is not properly ported to OpenMoko yet. Sun's java is under GPL now but they have never supported this processor. Audrius ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Has JavaFX been released? Can you point me to JavaFX sources you would like to see running on the Neo (URLs please, Sun's websites are a real maze, almost rivaling our wiki :-))? afaik there will be JavaFX Mobile and JavaFX Script. Rest assured that we will work hard to get all this stuff running on OpenMoko. Wolfgang On Jan 26, 2008, at 10:57 PM, Audrius Meskauskas wrote: Wallace Jackson wrote: Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? This seems not very likely: JavaFX is something highly advanced and build on the top of existing java platform. Even the ordinary java 1.5 seems is not properly ported to OpenMoko yet. Sun's java is under GPL now but they have never supported this processor. Audrius ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Audrius Meskauskas wrote: Wallace Jackson wrote: Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? This seems not very likely: JavaFX is something highly advanced and build on the top of existing java platform. There are two editions of JavaFX: regular and mobile. These correspond to Java SE (desktop) and Java ME (phone). As mentioned in the OP, the very first time JavaFX Mobile was shown in public, worldwide, it was running on a stock Neo1973 (presumably GTA01). Even the ordinary java 1.5 seems is not properly ported to OpenMoko yet. Sun's java is under GPL now but they have never supported this processor. Bzzt, thanks for playing. There is a Java 1.4 (SE) Technology Preview for ARM that you can download; this has been available for about 6 months. Unfortunately it doesn't play nice with the particular shared library versions that are installed on OpenMoko, and at that point I gave up. Not to mention that you can download Java ME for Arm from the JavaME site :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Bzzt, thanks for playing. There is a Java 1.4 (SE) Technology Preview for ARM that you can download; this has been available for about 6 months. Unfortunately it doesn't play nice with the particular shared library versions that are installed on OpenMoko, and at that point I gave up. Not to mention that you can download Java ME for Arm from the JavaME site :-) Can you elaborate what you mean with 'didn't play nice with the particular shared library versions'? The more detailed the more we can do about it. Also, can you reply with a URL for Java stuff you would like to see integrated into OpenMoko? Wolfgang On Jan 27, 2008, at 12:54 AM, Ian Darwin wrote: Audrius Meskauskas wrote: Wallace Jackson wrote: Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? This seems not very likely: JavaFX is something highly advanced and build on the top of existing java platform. There are two editions of JavaFX: regular and mobile. These correspond to Java SE (desktop) and Java ME (phone). As mentioned in the OP, the very first time JavaFX Mobile was shown in public, worldwide, it was running on a stock Neo1973 (presumably GTA01). Even the ordinary java 1.5 seems is not properly ported to OpenMoko yet. Sun's java is under GPL now but they have never supported this processor. Bzzt, thanks for playing. There is a Java 1.4 (SE) Technology Preview for ARM that you can download; this has been available for about 6 months. Unfortunately it doesn't play nice with the particular shared library versions that are installed on OpenMoko, and at that point I gave up. Not to mention that you can download Java ME for Arm from the JavaME site :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:00:46 +0800 Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bzzt, thanks for playing. There is a Java 1.4 (SE) Technology Preview for ARM that you can download; this has been available for about 6 months. Unfortunately it doesn't play nice with the particular shared library versions that are installed on OpenMoko, and at that point I gave up. Not to mention that you can download Java ME for Arm from the JavaME site :-) Can you elaborate what you mean with 'didn't play nice with the particular shared library versions'? The more detailed the more we can do about it. Also, can you reply with a URL for Java stuff you would like to see integrated into OpenMoko? Id just like to jump in at this point and say that there is a heavy integration of J2ME and J2SE happening in OE at the moment. Its probably wise to wait a couple of weeks to see the developer doing the work complete. Then we can see what we are still missing. Graeme ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: JavaFX
QTopia). But it will probably NOT be easily miscible with the OpenMoko software. It's a complete phone stack, like OpenMoko, like Android, like QTopia. You can run QTopia on OpenMoko today. See http://qtopia.net/modules/devices/openmoko.php Once JavaFX, Android are available, we will work on getting them into OpenMoko as well. Wolfgang On Jan 24, 2008, at 1:25 AM, Ian Darwin wrote: Wallace Jackson wrote: ... Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? No. Sun were nice enough to credit OpenMoko for making a superior Linux phone (see their blogs from June 2007). But the JavaFX package is a complete linux distro with JavaFX installed, based on work at a smaller JavaME licensee (Savaje) that Sun acquired. My guess is that this will be released next week or the week after, whenever Sun's Mobile Embedded workshop is. Heck, I don't even know if it uses X (like OpenMoko) or direct FB (like QTopia). But it will probably NOT be easily miscible with the OpenMoko software. It's a complete phone stack, like OpenMoko, like Android, like QTopia. Now if you want Java for the OpenMoko stack, that does exist, as Jalimo (among others). See http://www.jalimo.org. You can run command line (ssh'd into the phone), AWT, Swing (a bit slow), or GTK- In-Java. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Java for an overview of Java projects. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX - Additional hardware through custom mods
I agree that additional hardware should not be added to the default phone. If people want additional hardware they should get a custom case with extra room to support hobby projects and build/test these expansion modules themselves. If some of the modules became mainstream I could /eventually/ see these features added to the default configuration. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:45:43 -0800 (PST) Wallace Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: A digital compass would be a nice feature for VIA (OpenMoko) to have in the phone as a hardware default. Is it inexpensive enough in quantity to include in the shipping release!? Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's not going to happen. we are at gta02a5 (5th version) and are making zero changes - we want to make this work and release. we are only in the business of making sure what we actually have works. adding more will add cost and a lot more time to market. so basically- no. :) JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? no idea at this stage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: JavaFX
On Thu, Jan 24, 2008 at 04:36:52PM +0800, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: QTopia). But it will probably NOT be easily miscible with the OpenMoko software. It's a complete phone stack, like OpenMoko, like Android, like QTopia. You can run QTopia on OpenMoko today. See http://qtopia.net/modules/devices/openmoko.php Only by dual-booting or by using some virtualization layer, since QTopia uses a totally different way of accessing the frame buffer (does not use X11). You cannot have QTopia and OpenMoko apps running at the same time on the same screen, period. Once JavaFX, Android are available, we will work on getting them into OpenMoko as well. Well, you can assume they will run on the GTA hardware, in the same sense that QTopia does, but this is not the same as saying the run in the OpenMoko software environment. I don't think one can comment on either of these until we see whether they use X or whether they use direct framebuffer. If they use X then some of their apps *might* be miscible with OpenMoko. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX - Additional hardware through custom mods
On Thu, 2008-01-24 at 08:27 -0700, Jeremiah Flerchinger wrote: I agree that additional hardware should not be added to the default phone. If people want additional hardware they should get a custom case with extra room to support hobby projects and build/test these expansion modules themselves. If some of the modules became mainstream I could eventually see these features added to the default configuration. I considered that for small modules it may be possible to add extensions to the corners of the phone, thus making it more square. The side of the extension facing the phone can also be shielded if needed to limit interference on both sides. This will not win any prizes in a beauty contest, but in my life function comes before form. Regards Hendrik ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
A digital compass would be a nice feature for VIA (OpenMoko) to have in the phone as a hardware default. Is it inexpensive enough in quantity to include in the shipping release!? Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? Wallace Jackson, Mind Taffy Design Acrobat-3D.com Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: JavaFX
Wallace Jackson wrote: ... Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? No. Sun were nice enough to credit OpenMoko for making a superior Linux phone (see their blogs from June 2007). But the JavaFX package is a complete linux distro with JavaFX installed, based on work at a smaller JavaME licensee (Savaje) that Sun acquired. My guess is that this will be released next week or the week after, whenever Sun's Mobile Embedded workshop is. Heck, I don't even know if it uses X (like OpenMoko) or direct FB (like QTopia). But it will probably NOT be easily miscible with the OpenMoko software. It's a complete phone stack, like OpenMoko, like Android, like QTopia. Now if you want Java for the OpenMoko stack, that does exist, as Jalimo (among others). See http://www.jalimo.org. You can run command line (ssh'd into the phone), AWT, Swing (a bit slow), or GTK-In-Java. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Java for an overview of Java projects. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Wallace Jackson wrote on 01/23/2008 05:45 PM: A digital compass would be a nice feature for VIA (OpenMoko) to have in the phone as a hardware default. Is it inexpensive enough in quantity to include in the shipping release!? Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? Wallace Jackson, Mind Taffy Design Acrobat-3D.com Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I my opinion, including another piece of hardware on the Neo (and in detail a device which needs to be isolated from any magnetic influences by other components) would cause big changes in the hardware layout, so for the Neo1973 it's surely impossible (or only possible with again some months of delay caused by testing, etc). But if you really like to have one on this phone, maybe you can add a little compass (no electrical module, a real compass) into one of the alternate cases, just a tiny little thing of let's say 1cm in diameter. If its really small that shouldn't cause a big problem and maybe there are some others interested in some kind of stuff like that too. Disadvantage: It'll always be there and and need to keep your phone in horizontal orientation to read it. Greets, Georg -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
At least this solution consumes zero energy :-) Georg Michelitsch wrote: I my opinion, including another piece of hardware on the Neo (and in detail a device which needs to be isolated from any magnetic influences by other components) would cause big changes in the hardware layout, so for the Neo1973 it's surely impossible (or only possible with again some months of delay caused by testing, etc). But if you really like to have one on this phone, maybe you can add a little compass (no electrical module, a real compass) into one of the alternate cases, just a tiny little thing of let's say 1cm in diameter. If its really small that shouldn't cause a big problem and maybe there are some others interested in some kind of stuff like that too. Disadvantage: It'll always be there and and need to keep your phone in horizontal orientation to read it. Greets, Georg ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
Am Mi 23. Januar 2008 schrieb Wallace Jackson: A digital compass would be a nice feature for VIA (OpenMoko) to have in the phone as a hardware default. Is it inexpensive enough in quantity to include in the shipping release!? http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=7892 Price: $44.95 10-99: $40.46 each (10% off) 100 or more: $35.96 each (20% off) :-( jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
What about just stick something like this to the case? http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4732 Cheap and easy :) On 23/01/2008, Georg Michelitsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Schmidt András wrote on 01/23/2008 06:40 PM: At least this solution consumes zero energy :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Zero energy on the side of FIC, but a lot of work for the case designers.. I'm not really a designer but I imagine that it isn't really easy to create something like a phone case. -- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Alejandro Enrique ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Digital Compass JavaFX
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:45:43 -0800 (PST) Wallace Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: A digital compass would be a nice feature for VIA (OpenMoko) to have in the phone as a hardware default. Is it inexpensive enough in quantity to include in the shipping release!? Also, I saw a NEO1973 on Sun's not going to happen. we are at gta02a5 (5th version) and are making zero changes - we want to make this work and release. we are only in the business of making sure what we actually have works. adding more will add cost and a lot more time to market. so basically- no. :) JavaFX announcement release on-line, behind the presenter (bigger than life!)... Does this mean that JavaFX is ready to rock for NEO application? no idea at this stage. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Sun JavaFx
Hi Stefano, Sorry for the delayed response been away for a few days. Yep will be very interesting to see how Sun commercializes the Savaje intellectual property they purchased from the liquidated assets. One of my clients www.Mexuar.com http://www.mexuar.com/ built a number of applications for the Savaje launch in SF 2006 so we are watching this recent announcement with anticipation. Will be an interesting few months to say the least. Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +1-917-207-3420 Mb +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). http://click.mexuar.com/webuser/click/7/userurl/Cognation http://click.mexuar.com/webuser/nojs/7/userurl/Cognation -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stefano Sanna Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2007 1:01 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Sun JavaFx Marco Miani wrote: Hi I've just read this http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19entry_id=163 10 about sun JavaFx and a mockup of a phone that will be presented soon WTF it's a Neo somebody knows something more ? I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). Cheers, Stefano. -- Stefano Sanna - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal web site: http://www.gerdavax.it AIM: gerdavax - Skype: gerdavax - Callsign: IS0DZE ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community image001.gif___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
On 5/10/07, Jim Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded wrote: Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. It turns out to be difficult to make Java go really fast on specialized hardware. Java wasn't designed to be fast, it was designed to be 'safe' Why is it so hard? What are the tough problems that are always going to be slow? What's wrong with taking some shortcuts, like the way KVM depends on pre-verified bytecodes so that it doesn't have to do the verification at load time? for large groups of programmers to use. You can get single order of magnitude speed-ups for some bytecode streams, but you won't see two. I (too) looked at doing a Java chip (very early, back in 1996 or so). Moore's law continues to march on, only now instead of (super)-linear speed-up on a single core, we're getting multiple cores. Java will be OK with 'multi-core', but won't survive the transition to 'manycore' ( 100 cores), nor will Python, PHP or Perl. This may not matter on a phone platform, but the desktop and server will distance themselves from co-operating sequential processes before too much longer. I think you are saying that the thread model of concurrency has limits, right? Or just that programmers will balk at having to manage hundreds of threads? Well what do you think is the future then, to get more parallelism? The only question is if the rest of the industry 'woke up' enough to see the light of cracking the phone wide-open. If not, they are doomed. Yeah that's a big one. I think Apple's view is that their applications are always best-of-breed anyway, and they can satisfy 90% of the users' needs themselves, so why be open to having third-party security holes, usability problems, bugs and so on, which will sully the reputation of the phone. But I also think a lot of the success of the early Palms was the wide variety of extra software you could install on them. I doubt that Apple will really keep the iPhone closed forever, but we'll see. Nowadays it's not like it was in the Palm era though... there are so many choices for development platform. Java, Brew, Windows Mobile, Palm, Symbian, Linux/QT, Linux/X, etc. Java has not been the unifying force that it should have been. I'm not very optimistic that is suddenly going to happen; the window has probably been missed. But I guess it's worth a try. If nothing else at least OpenMoko might be able to run Java games or something. I think one unsolved problem, which has probably hampered Java a lot, is the lack of a process model. If a Java VM was pre-loaded, and all of the Java applications could run in one VM, the overhead for each one would be much less, right? I know, I've heard the excuse... well, the OS is caching files anyway, each class's instructions are only being loaded once, and a separate VM increases security. But if a phone's top priority at bootup was to just to get all of the necessary classes into memory as fast as possible, and get the VM running, get the UI up and be ready to do the basic phone stuff (calls, phonebook etc.) maybe it could be fast. But Java has always been an adjuct. On the desktop, first you have all the overhead of the OS and its own UI, and then there is Java. Anytime I run a desktop Java app my reaction is ugh, you can always recognize a Java app by the startup time, the amount of memory it's taking up, and the paint idiosyncracies and the way the UI looks. And the installer typically put its own VM in place along with the app. So you will be running a different VM for every app. This is not a platform! And the phones I have worked with are just limited to one Java app at a time because they can't
Re: Sun JavaFx
Shawn, I'm more than happy to engage and debate these points, but its likely off-topic (or at least not in scope) for the list (which is about openmoko and/or the community that surrounds openmoko). Topics such as: why is Java slow (and how to construct hw to make it go fast concurrency models (threads or not) programming of same, and Java's lack of a process model aren't related (much) to openmoko, so I suggest we take these off-line, unless 'the list' decides they would rather watch/join the discussion here. (And yes, I agree that I contributed to the discussion going off-track.) The topic of Apple being open or closed, especially as it relates to the iPhone, seems at least peripheral to the discussion here. I think it likely to be mere months before some rudimentary linux kernel is running on the iPhone, and likley less than a year from then until some dedicated group of hackers make the OpenMoko environment run on the iPhone in much the same way that the Mac and the AppleTV, and even the iPod now run specialized linux kernels to 'enable' a degree of openness that Apple expressly did not plan. If OpenMoko is found to be a better environment than (or for) the iPhone (as well as other phones)... success!. If Sun's JavaFX Mobile, well... success! Jim Shawn Rutledge wrote: On 5/10/07, Jim Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded wrote: Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. It turns out to be difficult to make Java go really fast on specialized hardware. Java wasn't designed to be fast, it was designed to be 'safe' Why is it so hard? What are the tough problems that are always going to be slow? What's wrong with taking some shortcuts, like the way KVM depends on pre-verified bytecodes so that it doesn't have to do the verification at load time? for large groups of programmers to use. You can get single order of magnitude speed-ups for some bytecode streams, but you won't see two. I (too) looked at doing a Java chip (very early, back in 1996 or so). Moore's law continues to march on, only now instead of (super)-linear speed-up on a single core, we're getting multiple cores. Java will be OK with 'multi-core', but won't survive the transition to 'manycore' ( 100 cores), nor will Python, PHP or Perl. This may not matter on a phone platform, but the desktop and server will distance themselves from co-operating sequential processes before too much longer. I think you are saying that the thread model of concurrency has limits, right? Or just that programmers will balk at having to manage hundreds of threads? Well what do you think is the future then, to get more parallelism? The only question is if the rest of the industry 'woke up' enough to see the light of cracking the phone wide-open. If not, they are doomed. Yeah that's a big one. I think Apple's view is that their applications are always best-of-breed anyway, and they can satisfy 90% of the users' needs themselves, so why be open to having third-party security holes, usability problems, bugs and so on, which will sully the reputation of the phone. But I also think a lot of the success of the early Palms was the wide variety of extra software you could install on them. I doubt that Apple will really keep the iPhone closed forever, but we'll see. Nowadays it's not like it was in the Palm era though... there are so many choices for development platform. Java, Brew, Windows Mobile, Palm, Symbian, Linux/QT, Linux/X, etc. Java has not been the unifying force that it should have been. I'm not very optimistic that is suddenly going to happen; the window has probably been missed. But I guess it's worth a try
Re: Sun JavaFx
Jim Thompson writes: aren't related (much) to openmoko, so I suggest we take these off-line, unless 'the list' decides they would rather watch/join the discussion here. (And yes, I agree that I contributed to the discussion going off-track.) I for one have been interested (decades ago I was involved in special-purpose SIMD computers for computer vision, so I'm very familiar with watching Moore's Law overtake and bury specialized hardware!). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Sander van Grieken wrote: Sander van Grieken wrote: I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. If I understand correctly, JavaFX Script is going to be open source, but JavaFX Script is not the whole of the 'JavaFX family'. Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Ya know, I *knew* that if I didn't support the statement with URLs that someone would get it all wrong. Not you, Sander, (though receiving four copies of your message was a bit much), but the response from Gabriel kinda pissed in my Wheaties. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp Of course it is, since Sun owns the Copyright, they can distribute non-GPL versions of the code to those who want them (and are willing to pay.) MySQL does this too. OTOH: Sun will ship a pre-integrated, GPL-licensable, Linux- and Java-based operating system software reference design for mobile phones, it announced at its JavaOne conference today in San Francisco. All JavaFX products will be available under the GNU GPL, Sun said. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7539760574.html --- Sun also announced that the company is planning on open sourcing JavaFX Script. We plan to open source all of JavaFX as we work through the program, said Green. The governance, license, and community models will be worked out as the company gets closer to delivering these products. Sun will release the source code of JavaFX Script to let other companies create web authoring tools using it. Sun, too, intends to create scripting tools for content authoring, Green said The alpha code that Sun demonstrated during Tuesday morning's general session is now available at the Project openjfx.org site. Sun will be enhancing and expanding this scripting language and encourages developers to join its community and send in feedback. http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/2007/articles/tuesday_gs.jsp --- And you could have *AT LEAST* quoted the entire paragraph of the press release: http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2007-05/sunflash.20070508.1.xml The first of these, JavaFX Mobile, is a complete mobile phone software system available via OEM license to carriers, content owners and consumer electronics manufacturers. JavaFX leverages the security and ubiquity of the Java platform and will support all content and applications currently available across the billions of Java technology-based devices in the world today. Sun today also previewed JavaFX Script, a new scripting language targeted at creative professionals, which will help to radically simplify the process of creating and distributing interactive content that spans all Java technology enabled platforms, from handsets to set tops, laptops to dashboards (see separate announcement). ***All JavaFX software, like all Java software at Sun, will be available to the free and open source community via the popular GNU General Public License (GPL) license.*** (emphasis mine) Me, I think Java is a four-letter word (and I was @ Sun when it was invented), but I'm *certain* that Sun understands that it has made a commitment to commit all of its software technology to FOSS, and this includes new technologies. Or, you could listen to/watch the webcast where Rich Green is talking all about how they prefer the GPL and then segues into announcing that Java has been open sourced (under the GPL), Finally, Noel Poore and I used to work at Tadpole Technology, Plc together. (George Grey was the original Founder and CEO at both Tadpole and SavaJe.) If you don't know who Noel is, I suggest you check the SavaJe 'management' web page. Or my latest blog post: http://www.smallworks.com/archives/0489.htm (And yes, I did exchange email with Noel today.) Or you could continue to FUD. With the 20/20 hindsight of history, it turns out that ESR was wrong about many things, including being dead wrong about Sun. Sun *owns* the copyright to all of Java, and can offer it under a non-GPL license. Who might want to *pay* Sun for Free Software? Motorola, for one. Ed Zander (CEO of MOT, ex-COO of Sun) and McNeally (ex-CEO of Sun) golf together. Eric Schmidt (CEO of Google) used to work for McNeally and with Zander. If you *don't* think that the deal to get Java FX Mobile on MOT's handsets was done prior to this announcement, and you don't
Re: Sun JavaFx
I know its bad form to respond to one's own posting, but watch the end of the 'webcast' around the 15:00 mark, just after McNealy gets up to talk about Curriki, and then compares Rich Green to Jobs, where Jonathan Schwartz turns to ask Rich Green: JS: Rich, how would you feel about someone taking the JavaFX Mobile stack we just talked about and created an independent device, just took the code, paid Sun nothing, just created a $50 device or a $30 device? RG: To reach everyone? JS: Everyone RG: Perfect! Its just perfect. JS: So thats what we're trying to do, create an open platform that is truly open source... Apple just got its iPhone shoved into a dark, damp orifice. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Does this mean there will be non-open sourced parts in the stack necessary to use JavaFX Script? Sun has already said that JavaFX Mobile (the stuff you need for the phone) will be GPLed. So.. no. Well, this is not exactly true. Sun indeed said explicitly that JavaFX-Script will be GPLd, but regarding JavaFX-Mobile, I read the following : JavaFX Mobile, Sun's software system for mobile devices, is available via OEM license to carriers, handset manufacturers and others seeking a branded relationship with consumers source : http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/index.jsp Of course it is, since Sun owns the Copyright, they can distribute non-GPL versions of the code to those who want them (and are willing to pay.) MySQL does this too. OTOH: Sun will ship a pre-integrated, GPL-licensable, Linux- and Java-based operating system software reference design for mobile phones, it announced at its JavaOne conference today in San Francisco. All JavaFX products will be available under the GNU GPL, Sun said. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7539760574.html Excellent, this is very reassuring. I did some searching, but didn't find any explicit statements regarding the whole FX stack, but this definately answers my question. And you could have *AT LEAST* quoted the entire paragraph of the press release: http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/pr/2007-05/sunflash.20070508.1.xml I didn't quote the press release but the JavaFX product page. Since GPLing the stack is a selling point (at least, from my perspective), Sun should mention that right there. However, thanks for pointing me to the press release. It makes the issue very clear. Me, I think Java is a four-letter word yeah, it means Just Another Vague Acronym, right? :) Or, you could listen to/watch the webcast where Rich Green is talking all about how they prefer the GPL and then segues into announcing that Java has been open sourced (under the GPL), being a developer, I kinda hate ambiguity. I interpreted this as 'the VM/JDK has been open sourced'. That doesn't necessarily mean technologies on top of that are open sourced. Or you could continue to FUD. With the 20/20 hindsight of history, it turns out that ESR was wrong about many things, including being dead wrong about Sun. well it was not my intention to spread FUD, but since this is the Openmoko mailing list, it should be very clear what the degree of openness is. ./Sander ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. As for the comparison of JavaFX Mobile with the iPhone: Sure, at first it looks like a me too play, but I think this applies to the whole mobile industry. The iPhone was a major wake-up call to the industry and so I think you will see many iPhone knock-offs over the next 18 months simply because the iPhone is leading the way. However, JavaFX Mobile is distinctly different in that it will be an open system (not closed as the iPhone) and will be part of a multi-screen approach that delivers content across desktops, TV, and mobile. Only Java currently has that market reach so Sun would be ill-advised *not* to capitalize that. Cheers, -- Terrence Shawn Rutledge wrote: I'm very disappointed that Sun has put off hardware-accelerated Java devices and Java operating systems for so long (they could have done this at least 5 years ago, if not more). The much-vaunted Java Chips never materialized in significant quantities of devices. The Java Station had such disappointing performance (and why? it could have been much better). And now just because the iPhone is coming out Sun suddenly decided to present an impression of being on the ball. Coming out now, it just looks like a lame me too play. Of course its performance probably still sucks... it will be a pleasant and unexpected surprise if not. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community begin:vcard fn:Terrence Barr n:Barr;Terrence org:Sun Microsystems adr:;;Zettachring 10 A;Stuttgart;;70587;Germany email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded Community tel;work:+49 711 720 98185 url:http://www.mobileandembedded.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Terrence Barr - Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded wrote: Shawn, I have been very involved in this area at Sun now for a couple of years. Let me add come comments: Hardware accelerated Java is actually fairly common already, at least in the Java ME space using ARM's Jazelle technology. It does have some benefits in very constrained platforms but in general advanced VMs with dynamic adaptive optimizations, compilation, and improved garbage collection perform better than H/W acceleration and at reasonable incremental cost (memory footprint, in particular). I think what we are seeing here is a general trend in the IT industry as general-purpose processors become more and more powerful they displace dedicated hardware solutions because software solutions are more flexible and lower cost. A notable exception, of course, is graphics acelleration but Java implementations typically use those when available. Specifically to Sun's Java chips (picoJava/microJava): I worked on them and the performance was quite good. But it is very hard, if not impossible, to keep up with performance improvements of general purpose processors together with the increasing amount of memory available. That technology evolution relegates Java hardware acceleration to niche status. Many companies have invested in Java H/W acceleration and fell into that trap. It turns out to be difficult to make Java go really fast on specialized hardware. Java wasn't designed to be fast, it was designed to be 'safe' for large groups of programmers to use. You can get single order of magnitude speed-ups for some bytecode streams, but you won't see two. I (too) looked at doing a Java chip (very early, back in 1996 or so). Moore's law continues to march on, only now instead of (super)-linear speed-up on a single core, we're getting multiple cores. Java will be OK with 'multi-core', but won't survive the transition to 'manycore' ( 100 cores), nor will Python, PHP or Perl. This may not matter on a phone platform, but the desktop and server will distance themselves from co-operating sequential processes before too much longer. As for the comparison of JavaFX Mobile with the iPhone: Sure, at first it looks like a me too play, but I think this applies to the whole mobile industry. The iPhone was a major wake-up call to the industry and so I think you will see many iPhone knock-offs over the next 18 months simply because the iPhone is leading the way. The only question is if the rest of the industry 'woke up' enough to see the light of cracking the phone wide-open. If not, they are doomed. Bill Joy explained it a long time ago. Lemma 1: # smart employees = log(# of employees) -- there are more smart people outside your organization than inside it Lemma 2: Innovation will occur Lemma 1 tells us that it will occur elsewhere. Question: How do you take advantage of innovation that occurs outside the organization? Answer: Open Source Of course, FOSS is one answer, there are others, but stating the answer without knowing the question is Jeopardy! However, JavaFX Mobile is distinctly different in that it will be an open system (not closed as the iPhone) and will be part of a multi-screen approach that delivers content across desktops, TV, and mobile. Only Java currently has that market reach so Sun would be ill-advised *not* to capitalize that. Even then, Java, even JavaFX is not the web. http://shaver.off.net/diary/2007/05/10/the-high-cost-of-some-free-tools/ Jim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
2007/5/8, Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 08/05/07, Marco Miani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I've just read this http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19entry_id=16310 about sun JavaFx and a mockup of a phone that will be presented soon WTF it's a Neo Now that's funny... But as the text says: even as he released a photo of a mockup (left) And: We're not introducing a phone. We're introducing software to make this possible. So I suppose they just made a screenshot of the software and pasted it onto a picture of the Neo1973... Nice! As it said here[1] it is real: What is it? It's a phone running Sun's new JavaFX Mobile software, a member of the JavaFX product family we announced this morning [1] http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/when_not_where -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.net msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Stefano Sanna wrote: Marco Miani wrote: Hi I've just read this http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19entry_id=16310 about sun JavaFx and a mockup of a phone that will be presented soon WTF it's a Neo somebody knows something more ? I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). That's correct. This is going to be very cool stuff. And the Neo is definitely very high on the list of devices I want to see this running on. -- Terrence Cheers, Stefano. -- Terrence Barr Technical Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded Community Phone: +49 711 720 98185 http://www.mobileandembedded.org, http://www.sun.de, http://www.sun.com Registered Office: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Germany Commercial register of the Local Court of Munich: HRB 161028 Managing Directors: Marcel Schneider, Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Martin Haering NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. begin:vcard fn:Terrence Barr n:Barr;Terrence org:Sun Microsystems adr:;;Zettachring 10 A;Stuttgart;;70587;Germany email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Evangelist, Java Mobile Embedded Community tel;work:+49 711 720 98185 url:http://www.mobileandembedded.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sun JavaFx
Marco Miani wrote: Hi I've just read this http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19entry_id=16310 about sun JavaFx and a mockup of a phone that will be presented soon WTF it's a Neo somebody knows something more ? I think (hope?) it is the new appearance of Savaje platform (+ JavaFX scripting). Cheers, Stefano. -- Stefano Sanna - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal web site: http://www.gerdavax.it AIM: gerdavax - Skype: gerdavax - Callsign: IS0DZE ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
