Re: [Gta04-owner] [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On 30/12/11 07.39, Alishams Hassam wrote: Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. Me2 ;-) 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: When GTA02 was sold and someone needed an ARM testboard, I recommended GTA02 and http://www.embeddedartists.com/ boards to people on news://comp.arch.embedded news://linux.debian.ports.arm and news://comp.sys.arm , that wanted a fast ARM board to play with. The reason is that with GTA02 you might end up with a useable access point or phone - instead of a standard board. Bonus: GTA02 has wi-fi and GSM modem! A complete GTA04 has a lot more! It even has built-in UPS! - In the same sense a complete GTA04 could be marketed as a open ARM-based test phone (almost no NDA needed) to technical department of universities, colleges and other teaching schools. - But the schematic and chip specifications/documentation should be very easily accessible (direct updated links), so hard core freaks can evaluate the ARM board in an instant. A lot of easy low-level software (not only Linux, but e.g. also FreeRTOS or a short C or C++ program demonstrating GTA04 funtionality here is how the LED/wi-fi/IR/USB/SD-card/LCD/camera turns on/is used, like embedded(-)artists...), must be available so technically oriented people can wrestle with it by themself or in education. - Then you/we will have a lot more technically oriented people working with the phone hardware and software and with more suggestions. Glenn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Hi, Am 30.12.2011 um 23:14 schrieb Gerald A: For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan This takes approx. 15 minutes. Rarely more. And we have an installation service if you don't want to DIY (I would appreciate if there will come up local resellers or hacking groups in your area). Does this 15 minutes require soldering skills? (I think it does). No it doesn't. It is just some mechanical adaptations. I think Sean some years ago encouraged to open the Freerunner and take a look inside... I personally am not averse to trying to solder -- it's something I want to learn more about. But your average linux geek probably doesn't want to. But they still might be enamored by the prospect of an open phone. The most tricky part is to peel off the LCD module from the PCB without breaking the glass or disrupting the fine cables. An alternative is to glue a new to the GTA04 board and just swap the complete GTA02-module with a GTA04 module. A complete description of the steps is in chapter 4 of the GTA04 manual: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Manual Nikolaus___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On Saturday 31 December 2011 13:08:47 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 30.12.2011 um 23:14 schrieb Gerald A: For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan This takes approx. 15 minutes. Rarely more. And we have an installation service if you don't want to DIY (I would appreciate if there will come up local resellers or hacking groups in your area). Does this 15 minutes require soldering skills? (I think it does). No it doesn't. It is just some mechanical adaptations. I think Sean some years ago encouraged to open the Freerunner and take a look inside... I personally am not averse to trying to solder -- it's something I want to learn more about. But your average linux geek probably doesn't want to. But they still might be enamored by the prospect of an open phone. The most tricky part is to peel off the LCD module from the PCB without breaking the glass or disrupting the fine cables. An alternative is to glue a new to the GTA04 board and just swap the complete GTA02-module with a GTA04 module. A complete description of the steps is in chapter 4 of the GTA04 manual: I can second the ease with which the boards are changed. To get an idea of the level: I have opened a few telephones before: to swap displays or put photos behind the LCD when the LCDs didn't offer background images yet. I can not say that it is in any respect a dayly routine for me to work on telephone hardware. The manual is quite to the point: the procedure seems quite elaborate, but that is because every step got a photo showing where to put your fingers and other tools. The display is indeed the trickiest part: there are those conductive pads between the display and the motherboard, that do not stick but get in the way anyway while cutting through the double sided tabe that holds the display in place. The wires are fine, but not more so than you'd expect from such a device. I might have taken half an hour, but not much longer. If I did it a second time, it would be much closer to 15 minutes. There is really not so much to it, all parts are made to fit easily and are also taken apart quite easily. Boudewijn smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Great Thanks! Although i have some professional background in product management/marketing I simply have no time left to care for marketing... And marketing communication without a product is pointless. So I did devote my time mostly on getting the product into our hands. So if we find enough volunteers to take care of spreading the word outside of this community, this would be great for all of us. Nikolaus Am 30.12.2011 um 07:39 schrieb Alishams Hassam: Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. I only wish to throw ideas out there and implement what I have time for. If there are any marketing experts on the list (heck, if you're even just interested), please speak up! The only experience you really need is the ability to write in your native language. I'm only familiar with English sources but anything will work. Let's coordinate efforts on the wiki, I'm sure Openmoko won't mind us piggybacking off their wiki ;p http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? 2. The GTA04 has vastly improved on every area of the FR. 3. The GTA04 is made in a proper factory in the EU, and of quality parts, in small runs - hence the price tag. This will appeal to those of us who want things done right, not cheap. 4. Though there are non-free chunks, harm has been reduced as much as possible. Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. Areas to Attack: 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: We need to get the word out about the GTA04. I find myself agreeing with the claim that he GTA04 isn't well known about. This appeared on Slashdot early this month http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/01/1910213/openmokos-freerunner-rises-from-the-ashes No mention of a pre-order. There was an article in late July on the Salon blog: http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/ Phornix also did an article on Openmoko just a few days ago, but only one line about the GTA04 : People are not excited, so let's make some noise! There are many other tech news sites out there. Ars Technica comes to mind, Lifehacker and Make would get a kick out of the board switching procedure, Wired is an older popular magazine, Phoronix I'm sure will do one focused on the GTA04 and 2600 for the geeks who like print (someone please write a cool article for those guys - I promise you they'll publish it)! Jeez, I almost forgot to mention http://lwn.net/ Someone here, who has a good wire to www.linuxfordevices.com? Traditionally a press release is sent out. I've never written one before and don't particularly want to start with this. Is there anyone who has written one before? 2. Mailing lists of FOSS projects: This area cannot be done with a press release blast. Well it can, but I don't think the subscribers will appreciate spam. Ideally each of us can write a post about the GTA04 on any other FOSS lists we are on. I'll get the ball rolling with a post to the Debian user list soon.The other big relevant list to hit is the LXDE related mailing lists: lxde-list lxde-l...@lists.sourceforge.net, lubuntu-desktop lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net Plasma active could be another one, assuming it runs on the hardware, as with gnome-shell gnome-shell-l...@gnome.org Let's get a list of mailings lists going on a wiki page. 3. Free Geeks Free Geek's are organizations dedicated to ethical recycling. They are all independently run so let's gather a list of each one's main mailing list and start a discussion. Starting points include how replacing a board is much more ecological than full new cell phone. The challenges with such an approach, and perhaps how FOSS helps to ensure old devices see much more support than their counterparts. I'll be updating the wiki with some adresses as I collect them. For now, Free Geek Vancouver: fg-gene...@lists.freegeekvancouver.org 4. Hack Spaces Hackers love linux and tinkering! We can organize with Hack Spaces to help less hardware oriented users like myself with supervision/teaching of the board swap. I'll also be adding them to the wiki, please help collect addresses if you're too shy to post. Vancouver Hack Space: vhs-gene...@lists.hackspace.ca 5. LUGS Linux User Groups are *not* dead. They're less active than they used to be, however at Linux Con North America, the president of the CLUG (Calgary LUG), gave a speech and is trying to reinvigorate things. This is usually full of people who have disposable income and love to have cool geeky things. The VanLUG address van...@robomod.net 6. Kickstarter / similar services Perhaps funding for a case
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On Thursday 29 December 2011 22:39:01 Alishams Hassam wrote: Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? This isn't strictly true. The FR/Neo1974 is certainly the easiest way to get screen, case, antennae, speakers, vibro-motor etc. but suitable parts can be sourced separately and a case made. It may be worth supplying a list of suitable alternative parts and sources, or even a parts kit, to make it easier for people without a donor phone. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Hi, I have a GTA02 which I am using only for NeronGPS. I need a mobile for a few calls and SMS a month. Some months ago it did not receive an SMS and I have no idea why. I bought a 20€ Samsung phone, put the chip in, and got the SMS. So, why should I be excited to buy a GTA04 for the price tag of a full android? I don't even know if I will be able to reliably receive the occasional SMS? Just a question, no ranting. BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. Regards, Fernando On Dec 30, 2011 06:39 Alishams Hassam alishams.has...@gmail.com wrote: Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. I only wish to throw ideas out there and implement what I have time for. If there are any marketing experts on the list (heck, if you're even just interested), please speak up! The only experience you really need is the ability to write in your native language. I'm only familiar with English sources but anything will work. Let's coordinate efforts on the wiki, I'm sure Openmoko won't mind us piggybacking off their wiki ;p http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? 2. The GTA04 has vastly improved on every area of the FR. 3. The GTA04 is made in a proper factory in the EU, and of quality parts, in small runs - hence the price tag. This will appeal to those of us who want things done right, not cheap. 4. Though there are non-free chunks, harm has been reduced as much as possible. Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. Areas to Attack: 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: We need to get the word out about the GTA04. I find myself agreeing with the claim that he GTA04 isn't well known about. This appeared on Slashdot early this month http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/01/1910213/openmokos-freerunne r-rises-from-the-ashes No mention of a pre-order. There was an article in late July on the Salon blog: http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/ http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/%20 Phornix http://www.phoronix.com/ also did an article http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAzNDE on Openmoko just a few days ago, but only one line about the GTA04 : People are not excited, so let's make some noise! There are many other tech news sites out there. Ars Technica http://arstechnica.com/comes to mind, Lifehacker http://lifehacker.com/ and Make http://makezine.com/ would get a kick out of the board switching procedure, Wired is an older popular magazine, Phoronix http://www.phoronix.com/ I'm sure will do one focused on the GTA04 and 2600 http://www.2600.com/for the geeks who like print (someone please write a cool article for those guys - I promise you they'll publish it)! Jeez, I almost forgot to mention http://lwn.net/ Traditionally a press release is sent out. I've never written one before and don't particularly want to start with this. Is there anyone who has written one before? 2. Mailing lists of FOSS projects: This area cannot be done with a press release blast. Well it can, but I don't think the subscribers will appreciate spam. Ideally each of us can write a post about the GTA04 on any other FOSS lists we are on. I'll get the ball rolling with a post to the Debian user list soon.The other big relevant list to hit is the LXDE related mailing lists: lxde-list lxde-l...@lists.sourceforge.net, lubuntu-desktop lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net Plasma active could be another one, assuming it runs on the hardware, as with gnome-shell gnome-shell-l...@gnome.org Let's get a list of mailings lists going on a wiki page. 3. Free Geeks Free Geek's are organizations dedicated to ethical recycling. They are all independently run so let's gather a list of each one's main mailing list and start a discussion. Starting points include how replacing a board is much more ecological than full new cell phone. The challenges with such an approach, and perhaps how FOSS helps to ensure old devices see much more support than their counterparts. I'll be updating the wiki with some adresses as I collect them. For now, Free Geek Vancouver: fg-gene...@lists.freegeekvancouver.org 4. Hack Spaces Hackers love linux and tinkering! We can organize with Hack Spaces to help less hardware oriented users like myself with supervision/teaching of the board swap. I'll also be adding them to the wiki, please help collect addresses if you're too shy to post. Vancouver Hack Space: vhs-gene...@lists.hackspace.ca 5
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
El día Friday, December 30, 2011 a las 01:43:12PM +, Fernando escribió: BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. I strongly disagree. Most of the times Marketing is done by companies without having a full featured product, sometimes even without having a product at all, but just an idea and just to test the market; I'm used to say to those markeing guys: Hey, I have the money here with me, can I take your gadget withme right now? :-) matthias -- Matthias Apitz e g...@unixarea.de - w http://www.unixarea.de/ UNIX since V7 on PDP-11, UNIX on mainframe since ESER 1055 (IBM /370) UNIX on x86 since SVR4.2 UnixWare 2.1.2, FreeBSD since 2.2.5 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Am 30.12.2011 um 10:27 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org: Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. If you are refering to how it was made impossible to replace the non-free firmware by a free one, then I wouldn't advertise this too loudly :) ??? It appears that there is a common misunderstanding about the GTA04 capabilities and WiFi firmware. Let me clarify at least for these two lists. You can always replace the libertas firmware. It is stored in /lib/firmware and loaded by the MMC/SDIO driver kernel module as soon as it identifies that the WiFi chip needs the libertas driver. What you are probably referring to was a proposal by RMS/FSF to isolate that in hardware for a special variant that FSF could endorse (maybe with a different name). There did no appear a volunteer to build a prototype and demonstrate that it is working, useful and improves freedom at all. Without a prototype, we can't even think about adding such a thing to hardware and give it to FSF for promotion. And, it was never intended to become part of the standard GTA04 which can live IMHO very well without a FSF endorsement, although an FSF endorsement would automatically give much more public attention. The better technological way was and is to write an open source replacement for the firmware and store it as usual in the file system. Unfortunately, that firmware discussion had gained its own life on some forums we don't read regularily and was based on assumptions and prejudices instead of ever asking the project team about the status... So the story was out and impossible to retract. So please help that others (outside the community) are correctly understanding this aspect. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On Dec 30, 2011 13:53 Matthias Apitz g...@unixarea.de wrote: El día Friday, December 30, 2011 a las 01:43:12PM +, Fernando escribió: BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. I strongly disagree. Most of the times Marketing is done by companies without having a full featured product, sometimes even without having a product at all, but just an idea and just to test the market; I'm used to say to those markeing guys: Hey, I have the money here with me, can I take your gadget withme right now? :-) matthias What would be the sales pitch then? An Arduino-like product for people to make their own custom mobiles? Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
+1 We need to offer complete working smartphone before doing massive marketing to public. #1 mistake of Openmoko Inc. was unstable software stack, switching toolkits (GTK+, Qt, EFL) and hardware bugs. I think, we should provide stable and tested development platform (stable distribution, SDK and nice documentation), then write on various MLs and attract mobile developers, come up with some fancy product name (GTA04 is just codename) and then start broader marketing on various news websites. Best Regards, Martix Dne 30.12.2011 14:43, Fernando napsal(a): Hi, I have a GTA02 which I am using only for NeronGPS. I need a mobile for a few calls and SMS a month. Some months ago it did not receive an SMS and I have no idea why. I bought a 20EUR Samsung phone, put the chip in, and got the SMS. So, why should I be excited to buy a GTA04 for the price tag of a full android? I don't even know if I will be able to reliably receive the occasional SMS? Just a question, no ranting. BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. Regards, Fernando On Dec 30, 2011 06:39 Alishams Hassam alishams.has...@gmail.com mailto:alishams.has...@gmail.com wrote: Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. I only wish to throw ideas out there and implement what I have time for. If there are any marketing experts on the list (heck, if you're even just interested), please speak up! The only experience you really need is the ability to write in your native language. I'm only familiar with English sources but anything will work. Let's coordinate efforts on the wiki, I'm sure Openmoko won't mind us piggybacking off their wiki ;p http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? 2. The GTA04 has vastly improved on every area of the FR. 3. The GTA04 is made in a proper factory in the EU, and of quality parts, in small runs - hence the price tag. This will appeal to those of us who want things done right, not cheap. 4. Though there are non-free chunks, harm has been reduced as much as possible. Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. Areas to Attack: 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: We need to get the word out about the GTA04. I find myself agreeing with the claim that he GTA04 isn't well known about. This appeared on Slashdot early this month http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/01/1910213/openmokos-freerunner-rises-from-the-ashes No mention of a pre-order. There was an article in late July on the Salon blog: http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/ http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/%20Phornix http://www.phoronix.com/ also did an article http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAzNDE on Openmoko just a few days ago, but only one line about the GTA04 : People are not excited, so let's make some noise! There are many other tech news sites out there. Ars Technica http://arstechnica.com/comes to mind, Lifehacker http://lifehacker.com/ and Make http://makezine.com/ would get a kick out of the board switching procedure, Wired is an older popular magazine, Phoronix http://www.phoronix.com/ I'm sure will do one focused on the GTA04 and 2600 http://www.2600.com/for the geeks who like print (someone please write a cool article for those guys - I promise you they'll publish it)! Jeez, I almost forgot to mention http://lwn.net/ Traditionally a press release is sent out. I've never written one before and don't particularly want to start with this. Is there anyone who has written one before? 2. Mailing lists of FOSS projects: This area cannot be done with a press release blast. Well it can, but I don't think the subscribers will appreciate spam. Ideally each of us can write a post about the GTA04 on any other FOSS lists we are on. I'll get the ball rolling with a post to the Debian user list soon.The other big relevant list to hit is the LXDE related mailing lists: lxde-list lxde-l...@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:lxde-l...@lists.sourceforge.net, lubuntu-desktop lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net mailto:lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net Plasma active could be another one, assuming it runs on the hardware, as with gnome-shell gnome-shell-l...@gnome.org mailto:gnome-shell-l...@gnome.org Let's get a list of mailings lists going on a wiki page. 3. Free Geeks Free Geek's are organizations dedicated to ethical recycling. They are all independently run so let's gather a list of each one's main mailing list and start a discussion
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Am 30.12.2011 um 14:53 schrieb Matthias Apitz: El día Friday, December 30, 2011 a las 01:43:12PM +, Fernando escribió: BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. I strongly disagree. Most of the times Marketing is done by companies without having a full featured product, sometimes even without having a product at all, but just an idea and just to test the market; I'm used to ^ This needs to have a different product selling very well, so that there is a big marketing budget available to burn. The other strategy is the one taken by Apple. They have a very low marketing budget compared to other companies. And the media are still happy to report every small move at no cost... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Marketing strategies can also be planned for two different targets: 1st: developers, skilled users, hackers, geeks, etc, etc. In this phase marketing is mean to publish, inform and possible sale the product to those interested in the above activities 2nd: once the product will be stable enough and usable for an average iphone user, then a marketing strategy could be planned to reach the big market. In my opinion, without the first, it would be much more difficult for our community to compete (ok, I know this is such a big word..) with mainstream products. IF the intention is really to get a phone comparable with other well known products, there's the need of something stable and usable, and this can be reached only with the mass help of developers testers, etc. But if they don't know about it... Mybe talking properly about marketing for the first phase isn't strongly right, however the meaning is to spread the voice, inform, publish to that target which could be interested at the beginning. Therefore I agree with Hassam when he talks about marketing strategies. I just wanted to point out something. imho, urodelo On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:09:10 +0100, Martix martix...@gmail.com wrote: +1 We need to offer complete working smartphone before doing massive marketing to public. #1 mistake of Openmoko Inc. was unstable software stack, switching toolkits (GTK+, Qt, EFL) and hardware bugs. I think, we should provide stable and tested development platform (stable distribution, SDK and nice documentation), then write on various MLs and attract mobile developers, come up with some fancy product name (GTA04 is just codename) and then start broader marketing on various news websites. Best Regards, Martix Dne 30.12.2011 14:43, Fernando napsal(a): Hi, I have a GTA02 which I am using only for NeronGPS. I need a mobile for a few calls and SMS a month. Some months ago it did not receive an SMS and I have no idea why. I bought a 20EUR Samsung phone, put the chip in, and got the SMS. So, why should I be excited to buy a GTA04 for the price tag of a full android? I don't even know if I will be able to reliably receive the occasional SMS? Just a question, no ranting. BTW, I don't think it makes much sense to invest in marketing without a full product. It seems a too expensive proposition for a small market of GTA02 and without high confidence of still getting a reliable phone. Regards, Fernando On Dec 30, 2011 06:39 Alishams Hassam alishams.has...@gmail.com mailto:alishams.has...@gmail.com wrote: Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. I only wish to throw ideas out there and implement what I have time for. If there are any marketing experts on the list (heck, if you're even just interested), please speak up! The only experience you really need is the ability to write in your native language. I'm only familiar with English sources but anything will work. Let's coordinate efforts on the wiki, I'm sure Openmoko won't mind us piggybacking off their wiki ;p http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? 2. The GTA04 has vastly improved on every area of the FR. 3. The GTA04 is made in a proper factory in the EU, and of quality parts, in small runs - hence the price tag. This will appeal to those of us who want things done right, not cheap. 4. Though there are non-free chunks, harm has been reduced as much as possible. Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. Areas to Attack: 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: We need to get the word out about the GTA04. I find myself agreeing with the claim that he GTA04 isn't well known about. This appeared on Slashdot early this month http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/01/1910213/openmokos-freerunner-rises-from-the-ashes No mention of a pre-order. There was an article in late July on the Salon blog: http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/ http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/%20Phornix http://www.phoronix.com/ also did an article http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAzNDE on Openmoko just a few days ago, but only one line about the GTA04 : People are not excited, so let's make some noise! There are many other tech news sites out there. Ars Technica http://arstechnica.com/comes to mind, Lifehacker http://lifehacker.com/ and Make http://makezine.com/ would get a kick out of the board switching procedure, Wired is an older popular magazine, Phoronix http://www.phoronix.com/ I'm sure will do one focused on the GTA04 and 2600 http://www.2600.com/for the geeks who like print (someone please write a cool article for those guys - I promise you they'll publish it)! Jeez
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? This isn't strictly true. The FR/Neo1974 is certainly the easiest way to get screen, case, antennae, speakers, vibro-motor etc. but suitable parts can be sourced separately and a case made. It may be worth supplying a list of suitable alternative parts and sources, or even a parts kit, to make it easier for people without a donor phone. Or to make it possible to use the gta04 while keeping the old gta02 ! :) What I really would like to is a hardware shopping list + some sort of tutorial on how to make use of the gta04 as a dev board (not a working phone), much like one would use a beagleboard or pandaboard. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
-[ Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 02:56:50PM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller ] Am 30.12.2011 um 10:27 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org: Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. If you are refering to how it was made impossible to replace the non-free firmware by a free one, then I wouldn't advertise this too loudly :) (... badly needed explanations ...) So please help that others (outside the community) are correctly understanding this aspect. Thank you very much for taking some time to clarify this issue. I will redirect people to this post whenever I heard about this again in the future. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: The other strategy is the one taken by Apple. They have a very low marketing budget compared to other companies. And the media are still happy to report every small move at no cost... ... which is because Apple is super secretive, so even rumors become big news. While this is a great strategy, it becomes difficult to achieve if you are trying to have everything open. What I think is lost in all of this is the question: Who is the intended customer? I've seen some people talk about linux geeks, etc etc. However, at least for the first rev of the GTA04, it's _hardware_ geeks, and hardcore ones at that, which is the focus. There are lots of unix-heads that would love a phone that is free-er then Android or Apple let you be. But having to buy a phone, then cannibalize it with another kit you buy? It's definitely outside the mainstream. Now, it's not that I don't want this project to succeed. I think it's a great cause -- I was one of the early GTA01 (neo) buyers. For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan some assembly required, which gave you the right idea. I thought that it just needed a good software stack to make things great. (I still do). What might work is having people invest, rather then buy something. That's something I could wrap my head around. Make the open phone happen -- Invest now. Don't make it complicated or expensive. $10 in one 'block' kind of thing. Maybe 40 blocks would allow the investor to see a completed phone, if one was to ever be produced. Make the risks clear -- the open phone might never come to market, but if we get 5000 blocks sold, we then have the muscle to negotiate with the big boys. The issue here is what is in it for the little guy, and I'd be a bit fuzzy. 40 blocks gets a phone, but what if I buy 2? Do I get the use of a phone for a week? :P I also don't know the legal side of calling it an investment (rather then a donation or a purchase). But this would be simpler to market, and would have better funding potential then selling the kit. As an aside -- if I have extra cash, I might be willing to buy a kit or two -- but they would either end up as donations to others, or as a dust collector. So it's not that I'm not willing to put money into it. But I also realize that one or two more kits won't make this happen in isolation. Thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On 12/30/2011 06:59 PM, Gerald A wrote: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com mailto:h...@goldelico.com wrote: The other strategy is the one taken by Apple. They have a very low marketing budget compared to other companies. And the media are still happy to report every small move at no cost... ... which is because Apple is super secretive, so even rumors become big news. While this is a great strategy, it becomes difficult to achieve if you are trying to have everything open. What I think is lost in all of this is the question: Who is the intended customer? I've seen some people talk about linux geeks, etc etc. However, at least for the first rev of the GTA04, it's _hardware_ geeks, and hardcore ones at that, which is the focus. There are lots of unix-heads that would love a phone that is free-er then Android or Apple let you be. But having to buy a phone, then cannibalize it with another kit you buy? It's definitely outside the mainstream. Now, it's not that I don't want this project to succeed. I think it's a great cause -- I was one of the early GTA01 (neo) buyers. For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan some assembly required, which gave you the right idea. I thought that it just needed a good software stack to make things great. (I still do). What might work is having people invest, rather then buy something. That's something I could wrap my head around. Make the open phone happen -- Invest now. Don't make it complicated or expensive. $10 in one 'block' kind of thing. Maybe 40 blocks would allow the investor to see a completed phone, if one was to ever be produced. Make the risks clear -- the open phone might never come to market, but if we get 5000 blocks sold, we then have the muscle to negotiate with the big boys. The issue here is what is in it for the little guy, and I'd be a bit fuzzy. 40 blocks gets a phone, but what if I buy 2? Do I get the use of a phone for a week? :P I also don't know the legal side of calling it an investment (rather then a donation or a purchase). But this would be simpler to market, and would have better funding potential then selling the kit. As an aside -- if I have extra cash, I might be willing to buy a kit or two -- but they would either end up as donations to others, or as a dust collector. So it's not that I'm not willing to put money into it. But I also realize that one or two more kits won't make this happen in isolation. Thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community My thoughts too, set up a kind of micro credit, where people can lent money, lets say 100 euro, and with that money build the phones. Once the phones are made, more developers can develop different aspects of the phone and people will see the GTA04 become more mature. I think success stories with video clips on youtube will convince more people to buy a GTA04 then good stories on paper. And the microcreditters can either get their money back once all phones are sold, or can get a 110 euro discount when they buy a GTA04. Just my thoughts.. Kind regards, Ed PS i guess you must be Dutch to come up with a micro credit plan in west-europe ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Hi Gerald, Ed (I try to merge thoughts a little...) Am 30.12.2011 um 19:22 schrieb Ed Kapitein: On 12/30/2011 06:59 PM, Gerald A wrote: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: The other strategy is the one taken by Apple. They have a very low marketing budget compared to other companies. And the media are still happy to report every small move at no cost... ... which is because Apple is super secretive, so even rumors become big news. While this is a great strategy, it becomes difficult to achieve if you are trying to have everything open. What I think is lost in all of this is the question: Who is the intended customer? Currently: those who own a GTA01 and GTA02 or are willing to give it away. There are approx. 18000 units out there waiting for a potential upgrade to a GTA04 board. And we just have 56 group tour orders within 6 weeks. This is 0,3 %... I've seen some people talk about linux geeks, etc etc. However, at least for the first rev of the GTA04, it's _hardware_ geeks, and hardcore ones at that, which is the focus. Not necessarily. The hardware is done and has almost been proven to work. There may be bugs inside we will learn about only in the future, but there is a core team to iron this out. Not the community nor the owner has to do that. The main complaint with the GTA01 and GTA02 was that the processor is very slow and the Glamo is crap. And, there is no UMTS. And it has no USB 2.0. Now we finally have the GTA04: a motherboard replacement just doing that with 800 MHz Arm-Cortex A8, 3D graphics accelerator, integrated DSP coprocessor, and 14 MBit UMTS. Ready to be used by the linux geeks... So it is a solution to the main complaints with the GTA01/02. There are lots of unix-heads that would love a phone that is free-er then Android or Apple let you be. But having to buy a phone, then cannibalize it with another kit you buy? It's definitely outside the mainstream. Only those who don't own a GTA01 or GTA02 yet have to buy something (either a used GTA01/02 or hopefully soon a case kit). All others don't really have a reason to keep their GTA01/02 and have a GTA04 in parallel. Now, it's not that I don't want this project to succeed. I think it's a great cause -- I was one of the early GTA01 (neo) buyers. For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan This takes approx. 15 minutes. Rarely more. And we have an installation service if you don't want to DIY (I would appreciate if there will come up local resellers or hacking groups in your area). some assembly required, which gave you the right idea. I thought that it just needed a good software stack to make things great. (I still do). There is a lot of progress towards this. Neil Brown has almost everything working in a Linux 3.2 kernel. And QtMoko brings almost everything to the User Interface. So what is missing? Just some weeks of ironing out the final bugs. And more OS options to be ported. If the developers keep the speed (these activities did not start before October this year!), it will be perfect when the Group Tour devices are ready to ship... What might work is having people invest, rather then buy something. That's something I could wrap my head around. Make the open phone happen -- Invest now. Don't make it complicated or expensive. $10 in one 'block' kind of thing. Maybe 40 blocks would allow the investor to see a completed phone, if one was to ever be produced. Make the risks clear -- the open phone might never come to market, but if we get 5000 blocks sold, we then have the muscle to negotiate with the big boys. The issue here is what is in it for the little guy, and I'd be a bit fuzzy. 40 blocks gets a phone, but what if I buy 2? Do I get the use of a phone for a week? :P I also don't know the legal side of calling it an investment (rather then a donation or a purchase). But this would be simpler to market, and would have better funding potential then selling the kit. As an aside -- if I have extra cash, I might be willing to buy a kit or two -- but they would either end up as donations to others, or as a dust collector. So it's not that I'm not willing to put money into it. But I also realize that one or two more kits won't make this happen in isolation. Well, to me it looks as if you own a GTA01 that is not used? Maybe you could think about donating it to someone who urgently wants to have a new case for a GTA04? Thanks My thoughts too, set up a kind of micro credit, where people can lent money, lets say 100 euro, and with that money build the phones. Once the phones are made, more developers can develop different aspects of the phone and people will see the GTA04 become more mature. I think
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:22:55 +0100 Ed Kapitein e...@kapitein.org wrote: On 12/30/2011 06:59 PM, Gerald A wrote: On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com mailto:h...@goldelico.com wrote: The other strategy is the one taken by Apple. They have a very low marketing budget compared to other companies. And the media are still happy to report every small move at no cost... ... which is because Apple is super secretive, so even rumors become big news. While this is a great strategy, it becomes difficult to achieve if you are trying to have everything open. What I think is lost in all of this is the question: Who is the intended customer? I've seen some people talk about linux geeks, etc etc. However, at least for the first rev of the GTA04, it's _hardware_ geeks, and hardcore ones at that, which is the focus. There are lots of unix-heads that would love a phone that is free-er then Android or Apple let you be. But having to buy a phone, then cannibalize it with another kit you buy? It's definitely outside the mainstream. Now, it's not that I don't want this project to succeed. I think it's a great cause -- I was one of the early GTA01 (neo) buyers. For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan some assembly required, which gave you the right idea. I thought that it just needed a good software stack to make things great. (I still do). What might work is having people invest, rather then buy something. That's something I could wrap my head around. Make the open phone happen -- Invest now. Don't make it complicated or expensive. $10 in one 'block' kind of thing. Maybe 40 blocks would allow the investor to see a completed phone, if one was to ever be produced. Make the risks clear -- the open phone might never come to market, but if we get 5000 blocks sold, we then have the muscle to negotiate with the big boys. The issue here is what is in it for the little guy, and I'd be a bit fuzzy. 40 blocks gets a phone, but what if I buy 2? Do I get the use of a phone for a week? :P I also don't know the legal side of calling it an investment (rather then a donation or a purchase). But this would be simpler to market, and would have better funding potential then selling the kit. As an aside -- if I have extra cash, I might be willing to buy a kit or two -- but they would either end up as donations to others, or as a dust collector. So it's not that I'm not willing to put money into it. But I also realize that one or two more kits won't make this happen in isolation. Thanks My thoughts too, set up a kind of micro credit, where people can lent money, lets say 100 euro, and with that money build the phones. Once the phones are made, more developers can develop different aspects of the phone and people will see the GTA04 become more mature. I think success stories with video clips on youtube will convince more people to buy a GTA04 then good stories on paper. And the microcreditters can either get their money back once all phones are sold, or can get a 110 euro discount when they buy a GTA04. Just my thoughts.. Kind regards, Ed PS i guess you must be Dutch to come up with a micro credit plan in west-europe ;-) Perhaps Kickstarter[1] would be an option here. It's a crowdsource funded site where creative projects of many kinds, including open hardware[2], can get the funding needed to keep them alive. I'm not suggesting it's a panacea for all the hurdles involved but there are quite a few success stories. I think the OM community probably has an edge in competing for funding due to it's age and the fact that the new hardware already exists. It would be nice to see at the very least a 'hardware hacker kit' with the basics as suggested here by Neal: I suspect that people who are buying a GTA04 at this stage are not looking to use it as a phone immediately--they probably want to hack on it. These people don't need a phone case. But, they do need an LCD to get the experience. My proposal would be to create a hackers package: a GTA04 board, LCD and a big bulky case that could be placed next to a workstation. Even better would be if there is a commitment to provide a case once it is ready (do you have a time frame for this?). Eventually the project could graduate to a fully complete phone with a case based upon the old one or ideally a new case with a better LCD and qwerty keyboard. Brian [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstarter [2]http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/open%20hardware?ref=sidebar ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Hi Nikolaus, On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 30.12.2011 um 19:22 schrieb Ed Kapitein: On 12/30/2011 06:59 PM, Gerald A wrote: What I think is lost in all of this is the question: Who is the intended customer? Currently: those who own a GTA01 and GTA02 or are willing to give it away. There are approx. 18000 units out there waiting for a potential upgrade to a GTA04 board. And we just have 56 group tour orders within 6 weeks. This is 0,3 %... Well, 18000 is a pittance of the 4.6 billion cell phones, and a fraction of the 500,000 smart phones. Since part of the issue seems to be attracting numbers, I was thinking of ways to attract people who might otherwise might not be interested or be able to. For me, I don't have time right now to assemble a Freerunner and a GTA04 to get a working phone with possibilities. I want the completed package, then end result. The neo was shipped with the slogan This takes approx. 15 minutes. Rarely more. And we have an installation service if you don't want to DIY (I would appreciate if there will come up local resellers or hacking groups in your area). Does this 15 minutes require soldering skills? (I think it does). I personally am not averse to trying to solder -- it's something I want to learn more about. But your average linux geek probably doesn't want to. But they still might be enamored by the prospect of an open phone. Well, to me it looks as if you own a GTA01 that is not used? Maybe you could think about donating it to someone who urgently wants to have a new case for a GTA04? I actually do hack on it once in a while. I had written lots of primitive utilities for it, but never got it working as an actual phone. My thoughts too, set up a kind of micro credit, where people can lent money, lets say 100 euro, and with that money build the phones. Once the phones are made, more developers can develop different aspects of the phone and people will see the GTA04 become more mature. i guess you must be Dutch to come up with a micro credit plan in west-europe ;-) I'm not Dutch, but I like the idea of micro-funding, and I am aware of micro-credit. Well, the problem is not to get a credit to produce the devices in advance. My block system, which is really close to the micro-funding that someone referred to on Kickstarter. But what about this idea: Group Tour orders with partial payment. My idea/kickstarter would allow something like this -- here, let me give you some money, and return 'something' of value in the future. It allows even smallish donations -- in kickstarters case, they give you a keychain. I'd rather allow it to be used against a future product, like a complete phone. I guess you could sell power adapters for ~$10, which if people didn't top up you could give away. What do those of you think, who still hesitate to subscribe to the group tour to upgrade your existing GTA01 or GTA02? PS: Taking too much credit is what the Greek state did do wrong. They are no longer able to pay back neither the interest rates nor the credit without subscribing to another credit. The Group Tour is now advertising a price of 474Euro (approx $600CDN). For this, I'm getting some neat upgrade bits, and I have to pitch in my $300+ Neo. For this price, I could buy two non-open but complete iPads. It's just passing through the holidays and things are tight budget wise here, so I'm still waiting to see. However, I'd pledge $100 for a more complete device later, even though it might never get to completion. As for your Greek example -- almost every country in the world uses credit to finance their Government. And this goes for business too -- in one way or another, most businesses use credit. Politics aside, just as you have to manage how much power your chips consume, just as you manage the number and purpose of your chips, credit has to be used wisely. And wisely used, both chips and credit can yield wonderful results. My idea wasn't pure credit, though -- it was a kind of investment in a future device, rather then the kit of today. My thought process was to move the game forward, the kit is the first step, but the eventual phone is what people are after. If you let people pledge towards what they want, you can fund what you need to get there. I thank you for your ideas and response -- and I hope that we'll get your kit out the door, either with or without my idea. Thanks! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[Marketing] Ideas / Plan
Hello All, Firstly note that I am not a marketing expert by any means. I only wish to throw ideas out there and implement what I have time for. If there are any marketing experts on the list (heck, if you're even just interested), please speak up! The only experience you really need is the ability to write in your native language. I'm only familiar with English sources but anything will work. Let's coordinate efforts on the wiki, I'm sure Openmoko won't mind us piggybacking off their wiki ;p http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 Things to mention: 1. The GTA04 *requires* an FR / NEO1974. This should serve as a request to get people who have these collecting dust, selling them online. Maybe this should be made more explicit? 2. The GTA04 has vastly improved on every area of the FR. 3. The GTA04 is made in a proper factory in the EU, and of quality parts, in small runs - hence the price tag. This will appeal to those of us who want things done right, not cheap. 4. Though there are non-free chunks, harm has been reduced as much as possible. Talking about how the wifi firmware has been isolated so it cannot interfere with the O/S is a great example. Areas to Attack: 1. Online and print magazines, news websites: We need to get the word out about the GTA04. I find myself agreeing with the claim that he GTA04 isn't well known about. This appeared on Slashdot early this month http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/12/01/1910213/openmokos-freerunner-rises-from-the-ashesNo mention of a pre-order. There was an article in late July on the Salon blog: http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/ http://blog.slyon.de/2011/07/26/openmoko-gta04-is-getting-reality/%20 Phornix http://www.phoronix.com/ also did an articlehttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTAzNDEon Openmoko just a few days ago, but only one line about the GTA04 : People are not excited, so let's make some noise! There are many other tech news sites out there. Ars Technica http://arstechnica.com/comes to mind, Lifehacker http://lifehacker.com/ and Make http://makezine.com/ would get a kick out of the board switching procedure, Wired is an older popular magazine, Phoronix http://www.phoronix.com/ I'm sure will do one focused on the GTA04 and 2600 http://www.2600.com/for the geeks who like print (someone please write a cool article for those guys - I promise you they'll publish it)! Jeez, I almost forgot to mention http://lwn.net/ Traditionally a press release is sent out. I've never written one before and don't particularly want to start with this. Is there anyone who has written one before? 2. Mailing lists of FOSS projects: This area cannot be done with a press release blast. Well it can, but I don't think the subscribers will appreciate spam. Ideally each of us can write a post about the GTA04 on any other FOSS lists we are on. I'll get the ball rolling with a post to the Debian user list soon.The other big relevant list to hit is the LXDE related mailing lists: lxde-list lxde-l...@lists.sourceforge.net, lubuntu-desktop lubuntu-desk...@lists.launchpad.net Plasma active could be another one, assuming it runs on the hardware, as with gnome-shell gnome-shell-l...@gnome.org Let's get a list of mailings lists going on a wiki page. 3. Free Geeks Free Geek's are organizations dedicated to ethical recycling. They are all independently run so let's gather a list of each one's main mailing list and start a discussion. Starting points include how replacing a board is much more ecological than full new cell phone. The challenges with such an approach, and perhaps how FOSS helps to ensure old devices see much more support than their counterparts. I'll be updating the wiki with some adresses as I collect them. For now, Free Geek Vancouver: fg-gene...@lists.freegeekvancouver.org 4. Hack Spaces Hackers love linux and tinkering! We can organize with Hack Spaces to help less hardware oriented users like myself with supervision/teaching of the board swap. I'll also be adding them to the wiki, please help collect addresses if you're too shy to post. Vancouver Hack Space: vhs-gene...@lists.hackspace.ca 5. LUGS Linux User Groups are *not* dead. They're less active than they used to be, however at Linux Con North America, the president of the CLUG (Calgary LUG), gave a speech and is trying to reinvigorate things. This is usually full of people who have disposable income and love to have cool geeky things. The VanLUG address van...@robomod.net 6. Kickstarter / similar services Perhaps funding for a case for the phones can come form these? Phew, that's all I can think of for now. I'll be updating http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 as time permits. Please reply to the thread, submit ideas, constructive criticism, or just show you're listening! http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Marketing_GTA04 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http
OpenMoko Viral Marketing in the South Pacific
Hello, Just a quick note that the Neo1973 seems to have started its viral marketing campaign in the South Pacific - i.e. in NZ's largest national newspaper[1]. The article is a bit misleading, though, as it refers to the Neo in an image but is actually discussing the 'GooglePhone' - oh well c'est la vie. -Tim Knapp [1] http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5objectid=10455627 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
Adam Krikstone wrote: AGPS is where focus needs to be. This natural (and free) comparative advantage needs to be developed to attract new developers and customers. Of these, I think only the following are not on wiki: 7. Neo ping - wifi/bt in conjunction with accelerometers able to find location phones when aGPS is unavailable. short distance This can't be done. See Accelerometer_Fundamentals on the wiki 10. Weather tracker - gives estimate of how long before front/severe weather will reach current location. Might give false positives/inaccurate time. Highlight areas that are flooded and map around. You can practically only pull from public services - so you're utterly reliant on them, this isn't a display, but a data problem. 12. Coverage mapper - ability to remember when phone loses GSM coverage, warn next time about dead spot or have ability for all users to submit data to compile more realistic coverage maps Now that's hadny. 15. Crime geocode - warns when entering high crime area, reminds to lock doors, etc. Again, data-driven, if you can get the data... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: Hello, On 7/21/07, Krzysztof Kajkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! That's a wonderful list you made! I have one doubt though - how well would that AGPS chip work, especially in buildings. I have Garmin GPS which does not get signal reception if anything is between it and GPS satellite so it does not work in my appartment or shows locations with massive error. Does anyone tested AGPS yet? Not tested, but I read on a Norwegian mobile phone news site about someone with a Nokia phone with GPS. Recently Nokia had enabled the AGPS functionality in the phone through a software update, and after that this person was able to get a GPS fix inside his apartment. Before (without AGPS) he hadn't been able to get a fix inside at all. I guess it depends on the hardware. A _BIG_ part of it is the software. One major benefit of AGPS in some modes is that the AGPS server has perfect knowledge of the satellite broadcast. This can be used to great advantage, as the server can intepret the signal as basically a 'best guess', rather than actually needing to decode each bit. Think of seeing something through trees, and trying to work out what it is, compared to being asked to locate a known object in the same scene. Sufficiently clever software may be able to get a substantial portion of the benefits. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
On 7/21/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think most people are jumping way too far ahead.. agree If this is to be used by anyone other than linux geeks it has to have windows support. completely agree It has to synch with outlook. If it does not work seemlessly with windows, it will never have mass appeal (and maybe thats the goal??) Ok, you're right. Users need to be able to drag and drop files between the device and windows. Stop. No, here is your error. Out of 20 avarege users, only 5 _know_ that there exxists something like drag and drop. It's important that it's there, for every mac user, for every advanced user or even for every enthusistic teen, but for the avarage user, a interface liek the upload of a file on a homepage is the best (clock here, selet file, clock ok, click upload). The alternative is that it shows up as a hard disc, like Iomega did for their Network hard drives. We should provide more solutions for one problem, so that we allow the idiot but also the genius (sorry for the terms to use AND customize it. Wanna new interface look? same procedure as for copying a song on the phone. Or syncing with exchange. Mp3's, pictures, and to some degree videos need to be user friendly to move between the 2.. Videos need atleast a converter app to run on windows to resample to something the neo can handle with the simple push of 1 button.. Ok, agree. Would even be better without converter. People don't like seeming their things converted. The ability to customize this forever is a good thing, it needs to be available. But i think to the end user it has to be hidden. Oh, no. The user shoudl be able to customize the aesthetics. And this should be really easy. No average joe wants to spend 5 hours a day re-building the tip of the kernel so he can ftp the latest new kids on the block track to his phone, and then ssh in to start it playing No, but some geeks want to. And he should have the possibility to. Avarege Joe should have a nice grphical frontend that says (Wanna update your phone, copy your newest song on it and have a caffe meanwhile?) (ok, i think we need soem sort of coffe interface). All of these apps and ideas are awesome. I hope to be active in writing some of these.. But for this to be more than a science experiment and become a viable product for the masses, it all has to be dumbed down and point and click and work without thinking about it.. Agree 100% Maybe I stated the obvious, but I would like this phone to be a success and thats how i see it happening.. start with the basics... Agree 120%. have a functiong dialer and sms service. then talk of everything else. -- My corner of the web: http://ramsesoriginal.wordpress.com My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Torfinn Ingolfsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : Isn't SyncML[1] aka OMA[2] standard on Windows? Standard as in there exists a SyncML application for windows thgat allows you to sync with Outlook ...? and if SyncML / OMA is standard, can't we just use that? 1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncml 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMA_Device_Management I know for a fact there's a way of syncronising with Outlook when Outlook is running. Google Desktop uses it and some other search solutions do as well. We shouldn't however go after solutions for Outlook, IE at the expense of Firefox and other open source applications. Also consider that we need viewers for Word, Open document format? --- G O Jones ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Hello, On 7/21/07, Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. Don't do rthat then. As in don't limit the marketing to only focus on the Open part. The Open part will only get to the people who are really, interested anyway. I guess reading the article before commenting on it would be too much to ask? Well, I *did* read the article. I don't agree with the author. He speaks of people's values - we should not focus too much on that, instead we should focus on finding the next must have uses for the phone. Values like fair trade are like fashions - they change every three to six months. IMHO. -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
Hello, On 7/21/07, Krzysztof Kajkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! That's a wonderful list you made! I have one doubt though - how well would that AGPS chip work, especially in buildings. I have Garmin GPS which does not get signal reception if anything is between it and GPS satellite so it does not work in my appartment or shows locations with massive error. Does anyone tested AGPS yet? Not tested, but I read on a Norwegian mobile phone news site about someone with a Nokia phone with GPS. Recently Nokia had enabled the AGPS functionality in the phone through a software update, and after that this person was able to get a GPS fix inside his apartment. Before (without AGPS) he hadn't been able to get a fix inside at all. I guess it depends on the hardware. -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
On 7/21/07, Krzysztof Kajkowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/7/21, Adam Krikstone [EMAIL PROTECTED]: AGPS is where focus needs to be. This natural (and free) comparative advantage needs to be developed to attract new developers and customers. 5. Auto sync location dependent - arrive at home wifi/bt turn on and attempt to sync, sync when movement is sensed in the morning Hi! That's a wonderful list you made! I have one doubt though - how well would that AGPS chip work, especially in buildings. I have Garmin GPS which does not get signal reception if anything is between it and GPS satellite so it does not work in my appartment or shows locations with massive error. Does anyone tested AGPS yet? You can see it working inside a building (FIC headquarters) on YouTube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5D6i6vLlhGA Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Marketing...
People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read this article: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/ just_because_it_saves_the_world.php It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Make it simple and relate value to the consumer. Nothing really new. Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes a cached US map from an SD card. Show them what that can do for them in a course of a day. Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be free. You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to explain openmoko. If people are still hesitant, show them the application and formats supported that are available through the community that would relate to their use. Ted Lemon wrote: People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read this article: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/just_because_it_saves_the_world.php It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Raphaël Jacquot wrote: Adam Krikstone wrote: Make it simple and relate value to the consumer. Nothing really new. Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes a cached US map from an SD card. Show them what that can do for them in a course of a day. Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be free. You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to explain openmoko. If people are still hesitant, show them the application and formats supported that are available through the community that would relate to their use. bleh, why limit this to the US when most of the map of the UK is available for free at openstreetmap.org ? No, it's not. A tiny fraction of the UK is available for free at openstreetmap.co.uk. There are a few dozen highly mapped areas, but the rest is from sparse to damn-near-nonexistant. My local city of 140K had one road. My local town of 40K was entirely absent. (I've since added) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
It was an example. Just replace US with insert your country here. Raphaël Jacquot wrote: Adam Krikstone wrote: Make it simple and relate value to the consumer. Nothing really new. Design a stable openmoko platform with a aGPS application that geocodes a cached US map from an SD card. Show them what that can do for them in a course of a day. Then tell them the GPS is free and will always be free. You should have no problem selling units and you don't have to explain openmoko. If people are still hesitant, show them the application and formats supported that are available through the community that would relate to their use. bleh, why limit this to the US when most of the map of the UK is available for free at openstreetmap.org ? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
I am not even sure they need to know about Open if only they are aware
of the Moko.
Look at this other buzz word: Linux, MMme Dupond do not really
understand what it relates to. (Unix, free, freedom, even Mac
sometimes...;-)
_We_ need to know that it's actually Linux, or sometimes
{Free,Open,Net}BSD or X.org or GNU or etc.
I suspect we should only ask the average people to follow us [1], not to
understand the full software stack. That may even be beneficial in the
end.
Rodolphe
[1] Or possibly question the motivations of our participation more than
the various interpretations, a reaction that could prove even more
challenging if average Joe or Jane is really interested... ;-)
Le vendredi 20 juillet 2007 à 08:34 -0700, Ted Lemon a écrit :
People who are interested in marketing OpenMoko might want to read
this article:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/
just_because_it_saves_the_world.php
It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing
OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in
OpenMoko as something they care about.
___
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http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
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Re: Marketing...
co On 20 Jul 2007, at 19:48, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote: I am not even sure they need to know about Open if only they are aware of the Moko. Look at this other buzz word: Linux, MMme Dupond do not really understand what it relates to. (Unix, free, freedom, even Mac sometimes...;-) If the phone is in a shop then people will buy on looks and any POS literature. If they are buying the phone online then the marketing will help, but still the phone's appearance will matter still. A lot of people want a good looking device. I think the Neo1973 looks ok, but I've yet to see one in the flesh. The fact that it is missing a camera will eliminate some buyers straight away. But people rate battery life, reception and sound quality more than camera when it comes to priorities (The Register did a survey). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
On Jul 20, 2007, at 11:48 AM, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote: I suspect we should only ask the average people to follow us [1], not to understand the full software stack. That may even be beneficial in the end. This is precisely why I suggest reading the article. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
On 20 Jul 2007, at 20:29, Jeff Andros wrote: On 7/20/07, Giles Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip If the phone is in a shop then people will buy on looks and any POS literature. snip I just think back to when the razr went on sale... people went to stores JUST to buy one... somehow we just have to generate that kind of buzz (is there someone who knows a celeb or two who's willing to be seen using our phone?) If the phone looks nice many people buy it, if it looks average but the software is amazing then geeks buy it. If it looks good and the software is amazing then everyone buys it :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Hello, On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. Don't do rthat then. As in don't limit the marketing to only focus on the Open part. The Open part will only get to the people who are really, interested anyway. So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then? Easy; think up (or invent if you like) design and implement at least three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so these killer apps are so easy to use as possible. Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone before. Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples): - camera - bluetooth headset - bluetooth remote control (I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that they aren't killer apps anymore) A few things that might work: - good GPS functionality - getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth (from your camera for example) - a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to only a very narrow group) And my personal favorite: - allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which inlcludes the users current location as a POI / waypoint. If the other user have another phone, he or she will only get a standard SMS message. If she or he has a Neo, they can (automatically) loookup that location on a map. I'm sure you all can think of a few others. -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
Keep it simple. Users don't want to know it's got hammerhead GPS, or runs on Linux. They want to know that it is reliable, cna do for them what their current phone does - and be aware of how the extra stuff can benefit them. I like the idea of sending a quick sms with your coordinates, that gets read on a neo and places someone on a map - but I think that this would need to be a unique procedure - rather than embedded with a normal sms. Good Idea though. I'm getting excited more and more about the potential for the neo - even with the hardware it currently has the ability to create mash-up software of all of these different functionalities is fantastic, but at the end of the day it's about selling it to the end users. I think the focus should be on the integration of utilities in a way that _you_ choose. People might think 'ooh that GPS location message is a good idea, for only the costs of a single text. wouldn't it be good if...' The job of the marketing group is to build on that if... to provide people with a sense of individuality as well as being part of a bigger picture. Since 1973, phones have been generic and very 'industrial.' Customisation has been lax. Phones are now a personal item, so the ability to customise is paramount in many peoples minds. We need to make this clear. It's not just a Penguin Phone.. it's your Penguin Phone. Andy Loughran www.zrmt.com m: 07921076319 - Original Message - From: Torfinn Ingolfsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OpenMoko community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: 21 July 2007 00:25:33 o'clock (GMT) Europe/London Subject: Re: Marketing... Hello, On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. Don't do rthat then. As in don't limit the marketing to only focus on the Open part. The Open part will only get to the people who are really, interested anyway. So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then? Easy; think up (or invent if you like) design and implement at least three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so these killer apps are so easy to use as possible. Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone before. Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples): - camera - bluetooth headset - bluetooth remote control (I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that they aren't killer apps anymore) A few things that might work: - good GPS functionality - getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth (from your camera for example) - a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to only a very narrow group) And my personal favorite: - allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which inlcludes the users current location as a POI / waypoint. If the other user have another phone, he or she will only get a standard SMS message. If she or he has a Neo, they can (automatically) loookup that location on a map. I'm sure you all can think of a few others. -- Regards, Torfinn ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. Don't do rthat then. As in don't limit the marketing to only focus on the Open part. The Open part will only get to the people who are really, interested anyway. I guess reading the article before commenting on it would be too much to ask? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing...
On Jul 20, 2007, at 5:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe I stated the obvious, but I would like this phone to be a success and thats how i see it happening.. start with the basics... Like the iPhone, you mean? :') Of course it would be great to be able to sync with Microsoft Exchange, and if someone takes that on it'll be great, but you can't legislate volunteer effort. Something like that is a royal pain in the neck, so it probably won't happen if it's not funded. If you care about it, you might want to take it on. But even if you don't, we have the example of the iPhone - you can sell at least a half million units without Exchange support! ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
AGPS is where focus needs to be. This natural (and free) comparative advantage needs to be developed to attract new developers and customers. 1. Silent/loud/vibrate depending on location, programmable or based on courtesy settings-- max goes silent near schools, libraries, etc. 2. shopping list/reminder if you drive walk by something, walk into costco/supermarket weekly sales paper appears 3. Lost phone mode - send a text to your phone, get coordinates back, remote change silent to ring mode. 4. Stolen phone mode - broadcast alarm when ever turned on or gives location for police. Remotely retrieve SIM/IEMI/phone book for identification. 5. Auto sync location dependent - arrive at home wifi/bt turn on and attempt to sync, sync when movement is sensed in the morning 6. Neo tracking - family plan able to track users at a distance or locally. Maybe an alert when within wifi range, sms/alert when phone deviates from expected location or arrives. 7. Neo ping - wifi/bt in conjunction with accelerometers able to find location phones when aGPS is unavailable. short distance 8. Vanilla GPS mapping - POI, trip tip, traffic, follow me, statistics of trip (rate of travel, mph...), sight seeing, etc. aGPS updated via SMS/WiFi/GPRS. Maps cached to SD card. 9. Broadcast - friends want to meet somewhere or where you currently are, you can select gps location or current location to broadcast to people you select in contacts menu. Maybe mute, end call, and accept/send gps buttons while in call. 10. Weather tracker - gives estimate of how long before front/severe weather will reach current location. Might give false positives/inaccurate time. Highlight areas that are flooded and map around. 11. Business Phone number ping - gets phone numbers of businesses in current location, may also opt for website instead. 12. Coverage mapper - ability to remember when phone loses GSM coverage, warn next time about dead spot or have ability for all users to submit data to compile more realistic coverage maps 13. Gas prices/Highway driving - calculates best/safest/cheapest rest areas or exits for gas. Able to input car MPG and let neo tell you which exits to get off for gas. Maybe interface with gasbuddy on the fly to get the cheapest gas. Maybe suggest more efficient routes after comparing month of driving data. 14. Language/currency/dialing codes - changes as you drive, of course it can be locked to your language. Might help visitors as they travel, helpful phrases/translation, current currency conversion--how much, normal prices, etc. 15. Crime geocode - warns when entering high crime area, reminds to lock doors, etc. 16. WiFi mapper - remembers past locations or finds new ones and where coverage ended/began 17. Public transport - sync with train/bus/subway schedule, realtime updates or just provide normal times. 18. Panic mode - disables power off switch, dims LCD, and locks keybad, dials 911/sends coordinates/emergency number, must have battery removed to stop and should give time enough for automated dialing of help---might get abused. 19. Sports mode - for runners, bikers, etc. Follow me, journey statistics, pace, laps, etc. 20. Charging patterns - remembers where battery dies, suggests to charge when stopped after calculating when/where your neo usually dies after last stop. 21. Social - IM, games, etc when near other neos. 22. Adhoc wifi/bt VoIP/PTT connection - GSM disabled when reaching certain sites, maybe construction/fleet, phones would only be able to VoIP/PTT between phones--limited use and range without AP/repeater Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: Hello, On 7/20/07, Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It speaks to exactly the problem that we will have marketing OpenMoko: how to get Joe and Jane Average to think of the Open in OpenMoko as something they care about. Don't do rthat then. As in don't limit the marketing to only focus on the Open part. The Open part will only get to the people who are really, interested anyway. So how do we get all the Jane's and Joe's hooked then? Easy; think up (or invent if you like) design and implement at least three killer apps (think functionality here) before the phone is launched for the masses. Make sure that we have enough feedback so these killer apps are so easy to use as possible. Oh, and these killer apps must be something new; not seen on a phone before. Which means that none of the following will do it (just examples): - camera - bluetooth headset - bluetooth remote control (I'm not saying that these should be left out, I'm just saying that they aren't killer apps anymore) A few things that might work: - good GPS functionality - getting pictures / other data from another device via bluetooth (from your camera for example) - a MythTV remote control via WLAN (but MythTV is probably known to only a very narrow group) And my personal favorite: - allow the user to send a message (SMS) to another person which inlcludes
Re: Marketing... aGPS uses
On 7/20/07, Adam Krikstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AGPS is where focus needs to be. This natural (and free) comparative advantage needs to be developed to attract new developers and customers. Holy schnikees! What a list o_0 Joe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
David Pinto wrote: Expect the large carriers to do whatever they can to prevent from open platforms to gain market share. One of their biggest concerns is turning from *Cellular Service Providers* into *Wireless Network Providers* (which is exactly what Neo will catalyze). There are suggestions being currently made in the cellular industry to start charging a premium for accessing certain URLs from cellphones (e.g., Skype :)), as well as other mid-evil times ideas. There are about 180 wireless providers in the US (http://www.ctia.org/research_statistics/index.cfm/AID/10202). One way of getting traction is with the smaller MVNO, which will see the Neo/OpenMoko as a business opportunity rather than a threat. It all depends on the terms of service of the upstream connection of the MVNO. If the real networks they are hosted on can impose conditions on the virtual operators, then smaller operators are only helpful until the larger companies react. Of course, this may raise competition issues, and inspire legal action, which could go very wrong for the larger companies. They may simply choose to raise the prices to virtual operators. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
Ian - I totally agree with your points, which present yet more reasons to start at the MVNO level. DP -Original Message- From: Ian Stirling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation David Pinto wrote: Expect the large carriers to do whatever they can to prevent from open platforms to gain market share. One of their biggest concerns is turning from *Cellular Service Providers* into *Wireless Network Providers* (which is exactly what Neo will catalyze). There are suggestions being currently made in the cellular industry to start charging a premium for accessing certain URLs from cellphones (e.g., Skype :)), as well as other mid-evil times ideas. There are about 180 wireless providers in the US (http://www.ctia.org/research_statistics/index.cfm/AID/10202). One way of getting traction is with the smaller MVNO, which will see the Neo/OpenMoko as a business opportunity rather than a threat. It all depends on the terms of service of the upstream connection of the MVNO. If the real networks they are hosted on can impose conditions on the virtual operators, then smaller operators are only helpful until the larger companies react. Of course, this may raise competition issues, and inspire legal action, which could go very wrong for the larger companies. They may simply choose to raise the prices to virtual operators. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
Wu claims wireless carriers [are] aggressively controlling product design and innovation in the equipment and application markets, to the detriment of consumers. -EE Times For those that haven't seen it yet, Skype is getting in on the action and petitioning the FCC to apply the 1968 Carterfone decision to cell phones too and let consumers buy phones and software of their choosing. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070221-8895.html Skype yesterday petitioned the FCC to lay the smack down on wireless phone carriers who limit subscribers' right to run software communications applications of their choosing (read: Skype software). Skype wants the agency to more stringently apply the famous 1968 Carterfone decision that allowed consumers to hook any device up to the phone network, so long as it did not harm the network. In Skype's eyes, that means allowing any software or applications to run on any devices that access the network. ... Now, while I'm not fan of Skype with their anti-open standards stance (with their proprietary and secret signaling), I do see this action as a good thing for the open source community. Skype is the 800 lb. gorilla of voice over the Internet. With Ebays billions available to them, perhaps they will be able to convince the FCC to change the current stranglehold carriers have over phones and software. -wolfgang ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock Usually this kind of lock can be removed one way or another. The issues of hardware crippling and data limiting/steering can be harder to remediate. Hope this helps. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gabriel Ambuehl Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:42 PM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation On Thursday 22 February 2007 18:21:51 Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote: Now, while I'm not fan of Skype with their anti-open standards stance (with their proprietary and secret signaling), I do see this action as a good thing for the open source community. Skype is the 800 lb. gorilla of voice over the Internet. With Ebays billions available to them, perhaps they will be able to convince the FCC to change the current stranglehold carriers have over phones and software. Do US GSM carriers *really* stop you from using your SIM in a phone you bought yourself? I could see it applying to CDMA but that's another issue, really. NOTICE: This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information of Motricity. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
On Thursday 22 February 2007 19:43:26 Sam Kome wrote: Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock Still, nobody really forces you to buy SIM locked phone for all I know. If you want cheap phones, that is usually the price... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
On Thursday 22 February 2007 2:22 pm, Jeff Andros wrote: On 2/22/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 22 February 2007 19:43:26 Sam Kome wrote: Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock Still, nobody really forces you to buy SIM locked phone for all I know. If you want cheap phones, that is usually the price... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community in the U.S. carriers are basically the only real source of phones... and they only sell one kind. it's also next to impossible to buy a plan without purchasing a phone as well(albeit a heavily subsidized one). while there are retailers that sell sim-unlocked phones most of these are either internet order or slightly shady. as I understand it, most other places this is not the case but it's the reality here when Sean's dad, or other normal consumers go out to purchase a phone, the only trustworthy source they can really find is from the carrier... so it's a self-perpetuating ecosystem My experience has been somewhat different. I purchased my last phone, under a contract, from CellularOne in the US. It's a gsm quad-band Motorola V400. It was unlocked at the time of purchase. I've been off contract for over a year now and have successfully used sims from other carriers. The store from which I purchased the phone has told me that CellOne does not lock its phones. Before I found out about the Neo, I was planning on purchasing my next phone from Nokia's company-owned NYC store, where I got my N800. All of their phones are unlocked. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Thursday 22 February 2007 18:21:51 Wolfgang S. Rupprecht wrote: Now, while I'm not fan of Skype with their anti-open standards stance (with their proprietary and secret signaling), I do see this action as a good thing for the open source community. Skype is the 800 lb. gorilla of voice over the Internet. With Ebays billions available to them, perhaps they will be able to convince the FCC to change the current stranglehold carriers have over phones and software. Do US GSM carriers *really* stop you from using your SIM in a phone you bought yourself? I could see it applying to CDMA but that's another issue, really. They do disable phones to only work with their network, which has spawned a side industry of people who will 'unlock' your phone for you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
* Sam Kome [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070222 20:50]: Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock Well, that's not the carrier stoping you, it's the phone. You know, there are sources for unlocked phones, like stores selling them. They just happen to be a little bit more expensive, because you have to pay the full price, instead of the carrier paying the majority of the cost. ;) A complete different thing would be if the networks would be checking serial numbers and disallow using a 3rd party phone. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation
Clearly, before the September mass market release, we should have regionally oriented wikis that accurately list the Neo1973/OpenMoko friendly carriers and connectivity options. I also floated an idea recently about an Neo/OpenMoko Friendly barnding program that falls in along the same subject here. For what it's worth, I got back an email from T-Mobile customer service and they indicated that they had no plans at this time for the Neo1973. But they also seemed confused about my question in other ways. I imagine that until one of us gets a chance to talk to their VP of 'Keeping The Customer Locked In Our Walled Garden', we'll never know if they see this change/opportunity coming. The Neo/OpenMoko platform, if it takes off, **will** change how the major carriers operate here in the U.S. They will have to morph into something more resembling their european cousins, and stop trying to grab market share by using the latest fashion phone as bait, and instead, focus on being competitive, low access barrier service providers and if they have any sense at all, they will add value by enabling and supporting 'Mobile Connectivity Computing' (MCC) by distributing and supporting MCC oriented software. Alan Original Message: - From: Michael Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:51:47 -0500 To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Marketing fodder for Neo: FCC presentation On Thursday 22 February 2007 2:22 pm, Jeff Andros wrote: On 2/22/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 22 February 2007 19:43:26 Sam Kome wrote: Yes, if the phone in question has been locked to another carrier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy_lock Still, nobody really forces you to buy SIM locked phone for all I know. If you want cheap phones, that is usually the price... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community in the U.S. carriers are basically the only real source of phones... and they only sell one kind. it's also next to impossible to buy a plan without purchasing a phone as well(albeit a heavily subsidized one). while there are retailers that sell sim-unlocked phones most of these are either internet order or slightly shady. as I understand it, most other places this is not the case but it's the reality here when Sean's dad, or other normal consumers go out to purchase a phone, the only trustworthy source they can really find is from the carrier... so it's a self-perpetuating ecosystem My experience has been somewhat different. I purchased my last phone, under a contract, from CellularOne in the US. It's a gsm quad-band Motorola V400. It was unlocked at the time of purchase. I've been off contract for over a year now and have successfully used sims from other carriers. The store from which I purchased the phone has told me that CellOne does not lock its phones. Before I found out about the Neo, I was planning on purchasing my next phone from Nokia's company-owned NYC store, where I got my N800. All of their phones are unlocked. Michael ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community mail2web.com What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Marketing the NEO
Howard Lowndes wrote: Does anyone know what plans are in place for marketing the NEO, esp. outside of the US (I am in Australia)? FIC are currently (and understandably) keeping their marketing plans close to their chest - but I suspect there will be plenty of scope for community involvement once the Neo has launched! Maybe worth keeping an eye on the lists till then. Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: AGPS or: Global Locate's Marketing debunked
You are right, and i am sorry if my email started a bad flame.. But my point of view is that it was really time that the opensource idea came to the ultra closed phone market, and i really would like to see openmoko grow. But a good software on a bad hardware could be a big mistake for the very life of the project.. Developers could be demoralized by seeing little feedback to their efforts and the community could loose at least some of its potential.. If for example i was the marketing manager of a commercial software house for the phone market i would encourage the developing of the first opensource initiative over a loosy hardware platform, because the failing of it would probably mean the failing of all the open project, and of consequence the grow for my software. just my opinion and sorry for the bad english.. Roberto - Original Message From: Richard Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OpenMoko community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:54:34 AM Subject: Re: AGPS or: Global Locate's Marketing debunked Did I miss something, or are tempers actually flaring here? It's a phone, folks. But let us not make things more difficult and ugly by being immature and throwing around phrases like arrogant jerks, and antagonising the very companies working with FIC on this project in the first place. I don't see how that can be constructive. The airing of grievances has concluded, Happy Festivus! ;-) Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
AGPS or: Global Locate's Marketing debunked
The neo1973 will come with a Global Locate GPS chip. In the following I will try to explain the disadvantages of that situation. First thing to keep in mind is that all the tomtom PDAs do pretty well without any A-GPS at all!! So what is that A-GPS good for? --- There are two points: * TTFF - time to first fix after cold or warm start * precision of position during the first minutes of navigation How is that achieved? - This is achieved simply by preloading the GPS-chip with the ephemeris data, meaning that a satellite can immediately be used for getting a fix at the moment it comes in sight instead of waiting 30secs while downloading the data. The ephemeris data contains the precise position of a satellite and outdates within two hours. However it is only 1500 bits long (times 12 satellites over your head) so can be quickly downloaded via i.e. GPRS. The ephemeris data is available here: http://igscb.jpl.nasa.gov/components/prods_cb.html The SiRF chipsets do allow for preloading the data and the protocol specs are published by SiRF, however nobody has even bothered yet to write the few lines of code to extend the gpsd (gpsd.berlios.de). Now what's the problem with Global Locate? -- The problem is that the protocol specs for communicating with the GPS chip are only available under NDA. Their whole marketing is based on this and they never mention ephemeris data. This allows them to paraphrase it over and over again and pretend they have something unique. Some examples (taken from http://www.globallocate.com/NETWORK/NET_WWRN_frameset.htm ): Full GPS-constellation data Satellite assistance data provided for 100% of satellites. - means: they have ephemeris data Strategically located Each GPS satellite is monitored by several RSs at all times to ensure no coverage gaps. - means: nothing. just marketing blurb. Their 'WWRN' of RSs (worldwide network of reference stations) is what others call CORS (continously operating reference stations) http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/ No missing satellites Unlike regional RS solutions that leave the handset with a critical shortage of assistance data, WWRN data includes assistance data for rising satellites. - means: they have ephemeris data (we heard that already, didn't we?) Highest likelihood of E911/E112 location fix Important in the typical obstructed environment, handset is assured of having assistance data for all visible satellites. - means: they have ephemeris data (we heard that already, didn't we?) Assistance data always current Changes in orbital navigation data or health status broadcast by the satellites is processed in real-time by the WWRN. - means: they have ephemeris data (oh, really?) Minimizes requests to A-GPS server No additional network assistance required as new satellites come into view. - means: they have ephemeris data (it starts to get boring) Shared infrastructure Full GPS-constellation data enables single A-GPS server to support handsets in multiple networks worldwide. - means: they have ephemeris data - yaaawwnnn and on and on and on like this, paraphrasing over and over again that they have ephemeris data. They are selling H20 in bottles. * Conclusion * == Global Locate: You should just publish the specs for the binary protocal of your chip. We do the rest for ourselves. If they don't do that, please Sean, follow your Mantra for an open plattform and substitute their chip with a more open one. A word of advice for Global Locate: actually the OSS community likes underdogs and compared to the market leader SiRF you are exactely that. But don't show up as arrogant jerks on mailing lists pretending to be an engineer but talking like a marketing droid. Marcus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Stefan Schmidt wrote: On Tue, 2006-11-21 at 17:12, Ben F-W wrote: Stefan Schmidt wrote: Nothing. It's exactly what FIC want. Could you explain this? How would it benefit FIC for a rival manufacturer to take a program developed for the OpenMoko platform and adjust it to work on their own, closed, Linux implementation on their phones? Porting the apps from OpenMoko over to Qtopia is a real pita. No new kernel features, X instead of framebuffer, gtk instead of qt. Writing it from scratch seems easier for me. Ah, now I understand what you mean! So the restrictions on a rival taking our putative 'killer app' and putting it onto their own Linux-based mobile are not legal, but technical. That makes much more sense to me. What I was essentially getting at here is what's called 'sustained competitive differentiation' in marketing-speak. That means that to break into this market, FIC would have to have a long-term advantage over rivals that they were unable to copy - or which, by the time they've copied it, is out of date. What concerned me about the GPL'd 'killer app' is that there was nothing to stop a rival company just taking the program and putting it onto their own handset - which wouldn't contravene the GPL as I understand it. Competitive differentiation lost. However, if what you say is true, there would be a major effort required by the rival in converting the app over to their handset (if it runs Qtopia). That doesn't mean that they couldn't do it, but it's a lot harder. And you should not forget that the company has to do it alone. No community jumps in and help. And this is the second part of the solution. By the time the rival company had taken a GPL'd program and adapted it for their own system, the program they had forked would have been improved: bugs fixed, features added and so on. So they'd have to keep maintaining the forked program themselves - without the savings offered by the help from the community. Competitive differentiation maintained. This does rest on the assumption that the rival's system isn't based on X and GTK and so on, which would mean there could still be a problem. But it's a lot less likely in the short term. Really open your platform and you get lots of brilliant software engineers for free. No need to pay yopur own devs for writing apps. More apps makes it more interesting for users. As you can see I don't know the business plan from FIC. I only think that I share the point of view with Sean on most of the parts. �ave a real open platform on linux smartphones was the reason I joined OpenEZX. And I'm eager to see OpenMoko running on it as software stack. :) Fully agree with all of the above! Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
On Wednesday 22 November 2006 22:34, Ben F-W wrote: Taking account of this, I wonder if it would be possible/useful to be able to 'skin' the user interface? Not just in a visual way, but so that people could switch their phone from operating like a Nokia to operating like a Motorola to a Sony Ericsson to...? So when you get it out of the box, you can tell it what interface your last phone had, and all the 'keys' would operate exactly like you're used to. Well there's the benq Blackbox concept out there which is essentially a phone that has a touchscreen all over that does show context sensitive buttons. However, I'm not entirely sure if the average user would even WANT to deal with touchscreens over a real keypad. Many even complain over the Razr style touchpads... In Asia that's not much of an issue but I imagine in the West ist might very well be. For one thing, my parents never cared for the touchscreen in my P900 PDA phone... pgpBQduHB3R4w.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Hello. On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 21:34, Ben F-W wrote: Stefan Schmidt wrote: Porting the apps from OpenMoko over to Qtopia is a real pita. No new kernel features, X instead of framebuffer, gtk instead of qt. Writing it from scratch seems easier for me. Ah, now I understand what you mean! Nice. (/me makes another dash on his explain-people-the-open-source-way-of-thinking list). ;) What I was essentially getting at here is what's called 'sustained competitive differentiation' in marketing-speak. That means that to break into this market, FIC would have to have a long-term advantage over rivals that they were unable to copy - or which, by the time they've copied it, is out of date. What concerned me about the GPL'd 'killer app' is that there was nothing to stop a rival company just taking the program and putting it onto their own handset - which wouldn't contravene the GPL as I understand it. Competitive differentiation lost. That's the way most business people thinking. After a better understanding of the facts companies are still able to have a good business with open source software on their devices. This does rest on the assumption that the rival's system isn't based on X and GTK and so on, which would mean there could still be a problem. At this point the company would think twice why they not just use OpenMoko. And FIC is interested in other companies using OpenMoko. regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
For example - I'm not hearing much about middleware in the OpenMoko API - how different applications can collaborate, create metadata (e.g. for usage-prediction), and share resources or data - I suspect (although I'd love to be wrong) that there isn't much support for such things. Component-based adaptive Middleware for Mobile Distributed Systems? That rings a bell... now where did i hear that? Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Stefan Schmidt wrote: Ah, now I understand what you mean! Nice. (/me makes another dash on his explain-people-the-open-source-way-of-thinking list). ;) To be fair, we're now some way from your original comment. We've gone from rival companies copying GPL'd programs is exactly what FIC want to rival companies wouldn't be *able* to copy GPL'd programs because the porting cost would be prohibitive. The first comment I disagreed with, the second I'm in full agreement. And I'm glad we talked it over! snip After a better understanding of the facts companies are still able to have a good business with open source software on their devices. And I very much look forward to FIC building good business on open source software! Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A marketing angle
Salve Ben! just as a remark - I'm just a student, loving the OpenMoko/Neo1973 project... On Tue, 21 Nov 2006, Ben F-W wrote: I agree that it's likely to become very popular with a limited market: the developers. What I was trying to decide in my email was whether that would be enough to guarantee future investment in the platform by FIC - Of course there will be no guarantee - but see again the slides of Sean presentation - or think how a mainboard and Laptop producer (FIC) could start with a business where the first companies give up (Siemens). Of course not with the traditional concepts... and if not, how likely the product was to make it to a larger market. Over time, of course, the developers are likely to make interesting enough applications to attract the larger market automatically. However, when developers are scratching a personal itch (as many of these will be) the initial result tends not to be easy enough to use for the mass market. Right, with vim, mutt and elinks; together with a touchscreen or external keyboard, we would not reach a mass market :) Just being so good as other phones (but with ogg/vorbis audio support) will be no help, as well. But when we concentrate on the core functions, to make them very usable - and add some new/fresh ideas like 8 ways to answer a phone (now, mailbox sorry I'm busy call me in 15 minutes again) then will become the OpenMoko plattform interesting for the mass market and of course for FIC, too ;) Your point is very important to understood who will be the regular buyer beside developers... and what will be the core functions for this people. - phoning - organizer - email - entertainment (audio, video?) - navigation - mobil office - special software To build an instrument with two pianorows on both screen side to be able to play syntie on the road creating midi files, use them to have a note layout and print this notes will be nice, but will not help to create a mass market - so excuse my many ideas, especialy what would be possible with... ;) So a good question would be - What does I dislike with my mobile most - What does the the Neo GSM/GPRS+AGPS make possible that I can't do with a close source phone, nor with a Linux PDA? This could be accu management or call managment One silly thing of the Siemens phones... you can programm a date/time to switch of the phone automaticaly but not to switch on. Imagine you had to work in a nightshift. You want to sleep till 15h, must be reachable after 13h so what will you do? Switch of the phone? Or use a alarm clock at 13h switch it on manualy and sleep further? Every phone on the market does have some stupid restriction like that. Do you know any phone with an answering machine on it with the chance that the caller could use a calling meneu? IMHO just making phoning function better have a great potential :) well. And then it could be sold like a PDA, a Linux distribution, or any other PC. You're right that over time, of course, the developers are likely to make interesting enough applications to attract the larger market automatically. Beleave it or not, my greatest motivation are to make the phoning functions better ;) However, when developers are scratching a personal itch (as many of these will be) the initial result tends not to be easy enough to use for the mass market. Good warning - no that wouldn't be good Perhaps one route to mass market would be the home interface setup - which seems to be what the majority of suggestions have centred around on this list. If Asterisk could be made simple enough to package into a 'black box' that consumers don't have to configure (in the same way MythTV is beginning to be), yes ;) asterisk cold be in the background, but its /etc/asterisk/extensions.conf should be hidden for the normal consumers Today, it could be less book more video tutorial, but for the mass market documentation would be *very* usefull, to educate the customers to use the power of the smartphone And make it easy with softwaresolutions *and* documention to understand, how it works and how they could use it. Can you give an example of a complicated product that has managed to reach the mass market by including a video tutorial? I can imagine that video tutorials are populare in the USA - not? I don't know but paper is expensive to print and to keep it up to date, a pdf on a cd-rom is not so handy and the Neo1973 should be usable without the help of internet or a PC. Reading ebooks could be unmotivating - so when there are some videoclips as tutorial on the device, the people could become familar with the device and it's software. For someone who never used AGPS or GPRS yet could it realy helpfull when an animation with a speaker explains what AGPS is and how it works. These clips mustn't be long but just showing how the systems could be used could realy help. And for realy unexperianced people we
