Re: Mono development in openmoko
Am Fr 1. Februar 2008 schrieb Brandon Kruse: I am not bashing on enthusiasm, but why do you guys chose to develop in a language that hates freedom? Especially on this platform :/ My experience with Mono: 10.1-YaST-sw-management adopted red carpet, and came to a grinding halt. top: yast uses Mono libs (plus some *.exe !?!? :-O ), Mono eats up more than 500MB VSS(!!!), and always there are some zombies. I don't think i'll learn to love C# or Mono. It's an ill concept. j ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Mono development in openmoko
Hi all, I am very interesting in developing something for openmoko in mono, but I think that is not very popular at the moment, at least there aren´t so many comments about this theme in the list or the wiki. I would like to know if some of you have tried to develop anything using Mono. And if you need any special plugin or framework to do that. At least from my point of view the use of C# could be as interesting as the use of C or C++ and tools should be faster than python or java. Thanks Best Regards. -- JuanLu ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Hi Juan, From technology side Java and C# is so similar that they should do the same performance. It is only Microsoft who is hyping that C# performs better. The only difference I know and has performance effect is the presence of structures in C# but not many programs would make an advantage of that. The performance of a specific implementation is a different question... I have no clue how Cacao compares to Mono. It would worth measuring... I have some experience with both languages as I am developing a map viewer application (http://yamamap.wiki.sourceforge.net/) that has a Mono and a Java version as well. The software is intended to work on OpenMoko. Both Mono and Java are available for OpenMoko. These are my own experiences: Mono: I have no phone yet, but David Roetzel has tried to run the yama application on the phone and it worked. In the mail there is a link to the original post, where Cliff Brake announces that the mono framework is ported for OpenMoko: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-December/012125.html Java: The Jalimo (https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Main_Page) project addresses porting Java SE to the phone. The JVM is Cacao and the classpath is the GNU classpath (Sebastian Mancke has written some guidelines for Java development on OpenMoko: http://lists.evolvis.org/pipermail/jalimo-info/2008-January/28.html). Cacao is compatible with Java 6 binaries and the GNU classpath is aiming the Java5 classpath. There are some details missing yet but it is possible to get a general purpose application that works with them. Latest versions of Yama works with GNU classpath but it was not tested on a GTA01 phone yet. So both Mono and Java is available on the phone. What I wanted to suggest is to consider using Java in case you know both technologies. I am so curious, may I ask you what are you planning to develop for the OpenMoko platform? Hope I could help you Schmidt András Juan Luis Prieto Martinez wrote: Hi all, I am very interesting in developing something for openmoko in mono, but I think that is not very popular at the moment, at least there aren´t so many comments about this theme in the list or the wiki. I would like to know if some of you have tried to develop anything using Mono. And if you need any special plugin or framework to do that. At least from my point of view the use of C# could be as interesting as the use of C or C++ and tools should be faster than python or java. Thanks Best Regards. -- JuanLu ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Hello Schmidt, For me it is not a problem to use Java in stead of Mono, I use to develop in Java but my curiosity for Mono is only to learn it, just that. About what I want to develop I am not sure at all, may be I should start joining an existent project at least to learn how to develop for this device. Actually I am usign the emulator because I don´t have a neo either. Cheers 2008/2/1, Schmidt András [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Juan, From technology side Java and C# is so similar that they should do the same performance. It is only Microsoft who is hyping that C# performs better. The only difference I know and has performance effect is the presence of structures in C# but not many programs would make an advantage of that. The performance of a specific implementation is a different question... I have no clue how Cacao compares to Mono. It would worth measuring... I have some experience with both languages as I am developing a map viewer application (http://yamamap.wiki.sourceforge.net/) that has a Mono and a Java version as well. The software is intended to work on OpenMoko. Both Mono and Java are available for OpenMoko. These are my own experiences: Mono: I have no phone yet, but David Roetzel has tried to run the yama application on the phone and it worked. In the mail there is a link to the original post, where Cliff Brake announces that the mono framework is ported for OpenMoko: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-December/012125.html Java: The Jalimo (https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Main_Page) project addresses porting Java SE to the phone. The JVM is Cacao and the classpath is the GNU classpath (Sebastian Mancke has written some guidelines for Java development on OpenMoko: http://lists.evolvis.org/pipermail/jalimo-info/2008-January/28.html). Cacao is compatible with Java 6 binaries and the GNU classpath is aiming the Java5 classpath. There are some details missing yet but it is possible to get a general purpose application that works with them. Latest versions of Yama works with GNU classpath but it was not tested on a GTA01 phone yet. So both Mono and Java is available on the phone. What I wanted to suggest is to consider using Java in case you know both technologies. I am so curious, may I ask you what are you planning to develop for the OpenMoko platform? Hope I could help you Schmidt András Juan Luis Prieto Martinez wrote: Hi all, I am very interesting in developing something for openmoko in mono, but I think that is not very popular at the moment, at least there aren´t so many comments about this theme in the list or the wiki. I would like to know if some of you have tried to develop anything using Mono. And if you need any special plugin or framework to do that. At least from my point of view the use of C# could be as interesting as the use of C or C++ and tools should be faster than python or java. Thanks Best Regards. -- JuanLu ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- JuanLu ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Schmidt András wrote: Hi Juan, From technology side Java and C# is so similar that they should do the same performance. It is only Microsoft who is hyping that C# performs better. The only difference I know and has performance effect is the presence of structures in C# but not many programs would make an advantage of that. I can not belive that a Mono GTK app can be the same speed on java/swing. And any step to integrate your app into the system, leads you to things like D-Bus and gconf. Sure, you can make JNI bindings for all of them. But i have never seen any. Mono has them... Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
I am interested in Mono development on OM as well. I believe Ahead of Time precompile is available for ARM in SVN, not sure if it's 2.0 though. Joe On Feb 1, 2008 4:05 AM, Juan Luis Prieto Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I am very interesting in developing something for openmoko in mono, but I think that is not very popular at the moment, at least there aren´t so many comments about this theme in the list or the wiki. I would like to know if some of you have tried to develop anything using Mono. And if you need any special plugin or framework to do that. At least from my point of view the use of C# could be as interesting as the use of C or C++ and tools should be faster than python or java. Thanks Best Regards. -- JuanLu ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Hi, Juan! Juan Luis Prieto Martinez wrote: Hello Schmidt, Actually in hungarian we write our last name first :-). So my first name is András. I shoud have written it in english as András Schmidt. I just mentioned it because I found this combination funny :-). For me it is not a problem to use Java in stead of Mono, I use to develop in Java but my curiosity for Mono is only to learn it, just that. About what I want to develop I am not sure at all, may be I should start joining an existent project at least to learn how to develop for this device. Actually I am usign the emulator because I don´t have a neo either. When developing in Java or .NET there is not much difference between a PC or a PDA. You have to design your UI to be usable on a small touch screen without a stylus. You also have to restrict yourself to use less resources of course. The APIs are the same as on PC (the only difference I know is the .NET binding for mokoui) and also the same binaries should work. So I am just testing the application on my PC. And as testers have experienced it just works on the phone. The project I have initiated is a map viewer application for the OpenMoko platform. Currently I am developing it alone. If you find it interesting you could join the project. There are many nice features that can be implemented if you like. You can also compile the OSM map of your area or even a Garmin map. I would be very happy if you found it interesting :-). Check it! http://yamamap.wiki.sourceforge.net/ and http://sf.net/projects/yamamap - The source code can be checked out from the sourceforge SVN and there is a working demo (with a piece of OSM map) on sourceforge's download. There are not many howto's for map compilation and development environment setup (they are Eclipse projects on SVN and they depend on apache command line parser jar) yet. But I am plannig to create them (next week if you are interested). For the Mono-Java question: In my opinion the .NET language is a little bit better (structures and maybe ) than Java. But Java has a great open source community and many tools available. Working with Eclipse and with Monodevelop is chalk and cheese. That's why I prefer Java to .NET. I have no OpenMoko phone yet and wanted to see my program working with a real GPS. That's why I have ported the application to Mono. But it is too much work (but it works! I can send you instructions if you have a PDA with GPS a recent WinME) to maintain two versions of the code that's why I will abandone the Mono version even if that means it will not work on Windows PDA's. If you do something different in mono and you have a Windows based PDA you can compile it on Linux too. If you are interested in this there is some instruction here: (http://yamamap.sourceforge.net/documentation-html.html#SECTION00542000). Anyway next week you can contact me on jabber ([EMAIL PROTECTED] - can contact with gtalk) or MSN ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you like. I will not be online until then. Happy hacking! András Schmidt ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Tilman Baumann wrote: I can not belive that a Mono GTK app can be the same speed on java/swing. And any step to integrate your app into the system, leads you to things like D-Bus and gconf. Sure, you can make JNI bindings for all of them. But i have never seen any. Mono has them... Just my 2 Eurocents The lack of GTK and D-Bus binding is heavy argument I admit. Though Jalimo can use SWT that is also native binding to GTK. Also I am a Java fan and I will remain until MonoDevelop will be as usable as Eclipse is :-). Cheers Andrew ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Sorry I wanted to send that in private. Schmidt András wrote: Hi, Juan! ... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
We are developing for OpenMoko within mono. So far so good! We are currently command line (no gui yet). But it definitely is a nice environment to use. Startup time is a little slow, so AOT compilation would probably help out there. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
I'm a .net developer professionally, so I prefer to develop in Mono as a hoby. But why do you say Mono hates freedom? I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that mono is an ECMA open standard, and all of the compilers and tools are all open source. Microsoft's compilers and tools of course aren't open source, but we're not talking about .net on Windows, we're talking about mono on Linux. On Feb 1, 2008 11:10 AM, Brandon Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not bashing on enthusiasm, but why do you guys chose to develop in a language that hates freedom? Especially on this platform :/ Brandon Kruse (bkruse) On Feb 1, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are developing for OpenMoko within mono. So far so good! We are currently command line (no gui yet). But it definitely is a nice environment to use. Startup time is a little slow, so AOT compilation would probably help out there. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Well, the problem is, that .NET is owned by Microsoft and (partly?) available under a shared-source-license that allows to see the code, but not to use it. Microsoft has patents on .NET and even if Mono is free - it implements .NET and there might be problems if Microsoft decides to use their patents against mono-users/programmers. Unfortunately so called open standards doesn't mean open-source - it means you can get a license for using Microsoft's ECMA-standardized functions for a adequate fee. You may want to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software)#Mono_and_Microsoft.E2.80.99s_patents On 2/1/08, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a .net developer professionally, so I prefer to develop in Mono as a hoby. But why do you say Mono hates freedom? I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that mono is an ECMA open standard, and all of the compilers and tools are all open source. Microsoft's compilers and tools of course aren't open source, but we're not talking about .net on Windows, we're talking about mono on Linux. On Feb 1, 2008 11:10 AM, Brandon Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not bashing on enthusiasm, but why do you guys chose to develop in a language that hates freedom? Especially on this platform :/ Brandon Kruse (bkruse) On Feb 1, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are developing for OpenMoko within mono. So far so good! We are currently command line (no gui yet). But it definitely is a nice environment to use. Startup time is a little slow, so AOT compilation would probably help out there. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
I am not bashing on enthusiasm, but why do you guys chose to develop in a language that hates freedom? Especially on this platform :/ Brandon Kruse (bkruse) On Feb 1, 2008, at 9:34 AM, Jae Stutzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are developing for OpenMoko within mono. So far so good! We are currently command line (no gui yet). But it definitely is a nice environment to use. Startup time is a little slow, so AOT compilation would probably help out there. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mono development in openmoko
Tilman Baumann schrieb: Schmidt András wrote: Hi Juan, From technology side Java and C# is so similar that they should do the same performance. It is only Microsoft who is hyping that C# performs better. The only difference I know and has performance effect is the presence of structures in C# but not many programs would make an advantage of that. I can not belive that a Mono GTK app can be the same speed on java/swing. You may be right, but Java does not ever imply using Swing. Our SWT libraries also use a GTK backend. In addition to that, the pure java-gkt bindings are evolving very well. And any step to integrate your app into the system, leads you to things like D-Bus What's wrong with the java-dbus bindings? We already have an OE recipe for them. and gconf. Gnu classpath uses gconf as backend for the standard Java configuration API (Java Preferences). Sure, you can make JNI bindings for all of them. But i have never seen any. Mono has them... Just my 2 Eurocents Tilman ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- tarent Gesellschaft für Softwareentwicklung und IT-Beratung mbH Heilsbachstr. 24, 53123 Bonn| Poststr. 4-5, 10178 Berlin fon: +49(228) / 52675-0 | fon: +49(30) / 27594853 fax: +49(228) / 52675-25| fax: +49(30) / 78709617 durchwahl: +49(228) / 52675-17 | mobil: +49(171) / 7673249 Geschäftsführer: Boris Esser, Elmar Geese, Thomas Müller-Ackermann HRB AG Bonn 5168 Ust-ID: DE122264941 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
