Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On 8/7/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because such a website, especially if it is to fulfill our security and privacy concerns, needs quite a bit of development time. There are several developers on the list with experience in ecommerce + supply cahin management. We are willing to help in building the wesite which will ease the delivery process (automate as many tasks as possible) and provide updated information to every user. All you need to do is ask for help. Regards VK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On Tue, Aug 14, 2007 at 07:20:47PM +0530, vivek khurana wrote: On 8/7/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because such a website, especially if it is to fulfill our security and privacy concerns, needs quite a bit of development time. There are several developers on the list with experience in ecommerce + supply cahin management. We are willing to help in building the wesite which will ease the delivery process (automate as many tasks as possible) and provide updated information to every user. All you need to do is ask for help. It is always a great deal more complicated than just asking for help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On 8/14/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is always a great deal more complicated than just asking for help. Well dear most of are working/have worked in projects which drain even last bit out. But we still manage deliveries and reduce the delays. I am not saying that openmoko team is not doing a good job but the delay in receiivng phones could reduced a bit. What i said in my mail is community could have helped in managing this As it has been pointed out problem is not delayed deliveries but lack of cimmunications. If core team cant find out time to develop such a system/website community membes wil be more tahn wiling to help them. Though they need to spel out there security concerns, so that a solution can be developed accordingly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month I think you are over enthusiastic. regards VK ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
Having my own business, I can begin to understand the position of FIC and their small team trying to process a seemingly endless list of emails on top of processing the standard orders. They don't have fringe departments, or employees for that matter. No one to sit down and just politely respond to order inquires all day, every day. They are overworked, strained, crazy (just like all of us here :) ) people that love what they do-and will do whatever they can to help us take back the mobile phone industry. Frankly, they deserve one helluva bonus at the end of this year, although they would probably be happier if a working Neo was in consumers' hands... Think about it for a second: all of us who are part of an organization that use email as an official means of communication essentially check/answer our emails almost every day, and it takes ridiculously long. How many emails have _you_ received today from someone asking about an update? On the other hand, I can understand the gotta-have-it-right-now feeling of everyone who does not have a Neo. Many are itching and screaming for their uber-geek handheld, so an update every other day or so isn't out of the question. Andy makes a good point about how some are feeling: People just want some sort of information or report on what is *generally* happening with regard to orders. Indeed, to paraphrase Michael J Fox,: ...They're so thirsty for it, they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand.. And, as Harald said, we are all developers (FIC employees included) trying to work together, so let's try to act as such... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
Steven ** wrote: snip To summarize: The current delay is not getting phones manufactured. It is dealing with all the orders and status requests they are receiving. No news is good news! I suspect that 99% of people would be completely satisfied with a one-line status message from each core-team member, each week. We do not expect rapid updates, or lengthy emails. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
Hi all! I tried to stay out of this entire discussion (like most non-technical discussions) for a long time. But I think there is just a big misconception of how and what at least certain people percieve and what is actually going on. First of all, OpenMoko is a very small company. We have 19 full-time employees in Taipei, plus something like seven external people, mostly developers, not all of them full time. Now think about this. 19 people to do everything, from sales through software RD, distribution, logistics, webshop, system administration, handling all external inquiries, business development, and so on. This does not include the hardware RD team inside FIC Mobility, which is smaller than OpenMoko. Everybody in that team works overtime, for many months - even way before starting the 'phase 1' sales. So starting to sell those developer previews is something that drains every last resource that we have (and don't have). So please remember, this is an extremely small team, everyone doing the best he can, trying to create a completely new class of mobile device. Starting to sell those units to _interested developers_ who want to help building this device is something that puts a lot of additional load on us. The community has been pressing us to release those devices as early as possible, and that's what we did (after many mostly hardware RD delays). So if you have any kind of inquiry, remember that you are one of more than 1000 other people who ordered in a very short timeframe. It's almost impossible to give any reasonable response. And if every of those 1000 people inquire on the status of their order every day, then we don't get anything done (especially not processing the actual orders) but to respond to those status inquiries. I know this is a very insatisfactory situation. But please step back for a minute and think about this consumer-like attitude of complaints like oh, you don't have the business process to handle orders. Yes, we don't have the business process. Yes, we don't have the people and/or resources. But: Yes, we're still doing it. Selling unfinished products to interested developers. Developers who have an idea how difficult this project is, and who want to help us moving forward with this project. But please don't think you're dealing with a multi-billion international company with a sales and customer support department. You are dealing with a bunch of [mostly technical] people who have a strange idea about what kind of difference they could achieve in the world of mobile devices. We have something like 700 of your inquiries that nobody hasn't even had a time to look at yet. I'm not even talking about the 800 inquiries that are somewhere being processed and have at least received one response. Oh, and don't think that hiring more people will help. Think about how long it takes for any new person to understand the process, and how much time you need to spend to teach them. The outcome would be visible at a time that phase-1 for GTA01 has long been finished. We're crazy because we're trying to do the impossible, with an impossibly small amount of resources, and an impossibly small team. So please understand that it's also impossible for us to respond to individual inquiries. You can place an order, you will get an order confirmation. We charge the credit card, you will get a confirmation that the payment has received. And you will get another message as soon as your shipping has been made. You can cancel at any point in time before the item is shipped by mailing CANCEL on an otherwise empty line to your ticket. But please don't try to change addresses, inquire about the status (which is clear based on the last mail you received), change the product quantity, credit card number, or whatever. Any such inquiry is bound to be responded in a way longer than acceptable timeframe, and will probably not have a satisfactory answer anyway, plus it will delay everythign else. Yes, this is no industry standard customer care. But hell, we are selling to developers inside our own community, not to end-users !?! Thanks for your understanding. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On 07/08/07, Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all! I tried to stay out of this entire discussion (like most non-technical discussions) for a long time. But I think there is just a big misconception of how and what at least certain people percieve and what is actually going on. First of all, OpenMoko is a very small company. We have 19 full-time employees in Taipei, plus something like seven external people, mostly developers, not all of them full time. Now think about this. 19 people to do everything, from sales through software RD, distribution, logistics, webshop, system administration, handling all external inquiries, business development, and so on. This does not include the hardware RD team inside FIC Mobility, which is smaller than OpenMoko. Sounds like a herculean task - I'll continue to wait quietly. Keep up the good work. -Pete Everybody in that team works overtime, for many months - even way before starting the 'phase 1' sales. So starting to sell those developer previews is something that drains every last resource that we have (and don't have). So please remember, this is an extremely small team, everyone doing the best he can, trying to create a completely new class of mobile device. Starting to sell those units to _interested developers_ who want to help building this device is something that puts a lot of additional load on us. The community has been pressing us to release those devices as early as possible, and that's what we did (after many mostly hardware RD delays). So if you have any kind of inquiry, remember that you are one of more than 1000 other people who ordered in a very short timeframe. It's almost impossible to give any reasonable response. And if every of those 1000 people inquire on the status of their order every day, then we don't get anything done (especially not processing the actual orders) but to respond to those status inquiries. I know this is a very insatisfactory situation. But please step back for a minute and think about this consumer-like attitude of complaints like oh, you don't have the business process to handle orders. Yes, we don't have the business process. Yes, we don't have the people and/or resources. But: Yes, we're still doing it. Selling unfinished products to interested developers. Developers who have an idea how difficult this project is, and who want to help us moving forward with this project. But please don't think you're dealing with a multi-billion international company with a sales and customer support department. You are dealing with a bunch of [mostly technical] people who have a strange idea about what kind of difference they could achieve in the world of mobile devices. We have something like 700 of your inquiries that nobody hasn't even had a time to look at yet. I'm not even talking about the 800 inquiries that are somewhere being processed and have at least received one response. Oh, and don't think that hiring more people will help. Think about how long it takes for any new person to understand the process, and how much time you need to spend to teach them. The outcome would be visible at a time that phase-1 for GTA01 has long been finished. We're crazy because we're trying to do the impossible, with an impossibly small amount of resources, and an impossibly small team. So please understand that it's also impossible for us to respond to individual inquiries. You can place an order, you will get an order confirmation. We charge the credit card, you will get a confirmation that the payment has received. And you will get another message as soon as your shipping has been made. You can cancel at any point in time before the item is shipped by mailing CANCEL on an otherwise empty line to your ticket. But please don't try to change addresses, inquire about the status (which is clear based on the last mail you received), change the product quantity, credit card number, or whatever. Any such inquiry is bound to be responded in a way longer than acceptable timeframe, and will probably not have a satisfactory answer anyway, plus it will delay everythign else. Yes, this is no industry standard customer care. But hell, we are selling to developers inside our own community, not to end-users !?! Thanks for your understanding. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On Tuesday 07 August 2007 08:27, Harald Welte wrote: Hi all! I tried to stay out of this entire discussion (like most non-technical discussions) for a long time. But I think there is just a big misconception of how and what at least certain people percieve and what is actually going on. No offence Harald, but you seem to have missed the point of the complaints. It's not that people haven't received their Neo's it's that there has been virtually no communication from anyone with regard to general order status. People just want some sort of information or report on what is *generally* happening with regard to orders. Indeed, to paraphrase Michael J Fox,: ...They're so thirsty for it, they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand.. It must have taken you 20 minutes to type your email and I don;t think you addressed any of the most basic questions people have asked. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 10:47:19AM +0200, Sébastien Lorquet wrote: Simple suggestion, I don't even known if it's feasible or not: Why not having a simple website to track order status? Because such a website, especially if it is to fulfill our security and privacy concerns, needs quite a bit of development time. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
You hit the nail right on the head Andy. It doesn't take much to keep people informedergo then you wouldn't have 800 enquiries a day Harold. Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Powell Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2007 4:29 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception It must have taken you 20 minutes to type your email and I don;t think you addressed any of the most basic questions people have asked. Andy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Phase 1 sales / order process / misconception
On 8/7/07, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 07 August 2007 08:27, Harald Welte wrote: Hi all! I tried to stay out of this entire discussion (like most non-technical discussions) for a long time. But I think there is just a big misconception of how and what at least certain people percieve and what is actually going on. No offence Harald, but you seem to have missed the point of the complaints. It's not that people haven't received their Neo's it's that there has been virtually no communication from anyone with regard to general order status. People just want some sort of information or report on what is *generally* happening with regard to orders. He just told you what is *generally* happening. They have a very small team processing 1000+ orders with people constantly emailing them wanting to know the status. Which just makes it even harder to process all the orders. I think the problem is people are assuming the worst. And by doing so, they only contribute to making their nightmare happen. You will hear if they run out of phones. Right now, they have plenty of phones to ship. Maybe they don't have as many phones sitting on their desk as they have orders. But they will by the time they get through processing the orders for which they have phones. To summarize: The current delay is not getting phones manufactured. It is dealing with all the orders and status requests they are receiving. No news is good news! -Steven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
