Re: Neo1973 Update!
Lars Hallberg wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev: the GPS daemon would need to be updated to allow for kallman filtering using those accelerometers, so that the GPS apps could continue pointing the phones location inside tunnels and stuff Unfortunately not. As already pointed out on that list, the accelerometers error would add up itself. But if it's as good as GPS for 10-15 sec it should be possible to interpolate 10 - 15 GPS measurements while on the move. Must move fast enough so the start vector can be known. But while moving so fast the accelerometers can be calibrated over time by GPS data cramming absolutely maximum accuracy from them! Maybe detect moving in and out of GPS echoes and compensate the results to. One 3 axis accelerometer - tied down in a car-holder, with the best of the $5-10 accelerometers, gives interesting navigation possibilities. You can basically use the fact that you know that where the car is pointing is where it's going, and that any lateral accelerations are turns. (this breaks down with banked roads, or drifting the vehicle). But an error of around a milligee gives only an error of around 5m after 30s, which isn't at all useless. (around half a kilometer after 5 min) However, the tiny baseline of the phone means that the differential accelerations are tiny. In the non-tied-down case, where you can't tell anything about the phones orientation, you can do almost no navigation. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals The differential accelerations are so small that with the best availble accelerometers, you cannot tell the important parameter - roll about 'down' - the noise makes the roll reading spin randomly round and round every few seconds. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev: the GPS daemon would need to be updated to allow for kallman filtering using those accelerometers, so that the GPS apps could continue pointing the phones location inside tunnels and stuff Unfortunately not. As already pointed out on that list, the accelerometers error would add up itself. But if it's as good as GPS for 10-15 sec it should be possible to interpolate 10 - 15 GPS measurements while on the move. Must move fast enough so the start vector can be known. But while moving so fast the accelerometers can be calibrated over time by GPS data cramming absolutely maximum accuracy from them! Maybe detect moving in and out of GPS echoes and compensate the results to. It will also add real time info on acceleration making it easier to detect shift of line, change in speed (warn if a speed limit is up ahead). While still or moving slowly - orientation will be lost :-( But for car navigation it will be a boost! And for games... Think flipper with tilt :-) Besides: Its only two accelerometers. You can do 2-dimensional 'navigating' with that, no more. No tilting/rotating. Thats assuming each accelerometer is a single point. But if the tree axes is measured with a small offset from each other? That would give more info so thats how I guess they are built. /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
el jefe delito wrote: Could someone please explain to me the difference between Phase 1 and Phase 2 phones, from an availability standpoint? Will it be the Phase1 being released in September, and Phase2 sometime in 2008? Or is Phase1 a design prototype and Phase2 closer to the for-sale unit available about September? I just hope this thing ain't gonna repeat the osborne effect : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973 Update!
Including more than one accelerometer doesn't really make sense I think because there are rotation sensors for detecting rotation. I have one in my DS Motion ( ndsmotion.com ) which can detect rotation around one axis. Include 3 of those (or probably a combined one) and you are good to go. In addition it would also make sense to include an electronic compass. Combined with the GPS, you should then always know where on earth you are and which direction you are facing. Ortwin On 6/5/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 7:52, Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro So are you saying that 3 3d accelerometers in a line with 2 on the end and 1 in the middle will allow you to distinguish between rotation around the center axis, etc? It would seem to me that there are some realistic assumptions which can be made to reduce error under normal usage. In addition, in a navigation sense it would seem that you can use gps to provide error correction and thus be at least as precise (or maybe not far from it) as the gps between times when you are out of gps signal (I.e. Tunnel) etc. Other than a navigation use, accelerometers will be useful for manipulating applications, but without a compass module, pointing or other types of external information apps might not be possible anyway. If that's true, then each program will have some assumptions built in for normal usage. Errors can be mostly ignored since what will usually matter will be the differences between vectors in very short timeframes OR the difference between the start vectors and the current vectors. If the phone is suddenly dropped or thrown that's probably detectable as an extreme motion and maybe ignorable. /shrug --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Why the Neo is going to have 2 tri-axis accelerometers is beyond me. The only reason you would want to use 2 3d accelerometers is if you want higher accuracy in rotation measurements, but for the type of application I see little gain in the extra accuracy. The Nintendo Wiimote only uses 1 3d accelerometer and the sensitivity is good enough. Here is a pdf that shows you what I'm talking about: http://kionix.com/App-Notes/AN005%20Tilt.pdf Notice how in figure 6 the angle of the different axis effect the tilt sensitivity. - David Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
I think the reason for using accelerometers not solid state gyros is cost. Sean quoted $3 for accels on the list a while back, while 3 axis gyros with SPI were closer to $20 last I looked, and that was for one that wasn't available yet. Production will ramp up, prices will fall and a future OpenMoko will probably use an accel and a gyro, but for now 2 accels gets you most of the way there for several $ less. Compass would be interesting, to me at least. On Tuesday 05 June 2007 17:54, Ortwin Regel wrote: Including more than one accelerometer doesn't really make sense I think because there are rotation sensors for detecting rotation. I have one in my DS Motion ( ndsmotion.com ) which can detect rotation around one axis. Include 3 of those (or probably a combined one) and you are good to go. In addition it would also make sense to include an electronic compass. Combined with the GPS, you should then always know where on earth you are and which direction you are facing. Ortwin On 6/5/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 7:52, Mauro Iazzi wrote: On 05/06/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. Probably is the key here. with two 3d (linear) accelerometers you cannot sense rotation around the axis between the two in an inertial frame of reference. Moreover you cannot distinguish if the Neo is laying face down or pushed downwards with 2mg force. This example is somewhat artificial, but means that you can probably find more realistic (though complicated) movements that are not distinguishable with only two accelerometers. You must then consider the errors which sum up, if you try to track. A rough mental estimate gives that you can sum up as much as 1 meter of error in ten seconds if you have a precision of 10^-3g over acceleration measure. (it does not mean that you are 1 meter away from the real position, it means that you can only be sure that you are at most 1 meter away from that). Most of the time you will need good assumptions to get any information from raw data: http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Motion_analysis can be of some help. No linear accel, no rotation, no tilt, are assumptions which can give some meaning to the data and can be done for single application, where you can assume the user will have some particular behaviour (or you require it). Still absolute tracking won't probably be anyhow realizable. --mauro So are you saying that 3 3d accelerometers in a line with 2 on the end and 1 in the middle will allow you to distinguish between rotation around the center axis, etc? It would seem to me that there are some realistic assumptions which can be made to reduce error under normal usage. In addition, in a navigation sense it would seem that you can use gps to provide error correction and thus be at least as precise (or maybe not far from it) as the gps between times when you are out of gps signal (I.e. Tunnel) etc. Other than a navigation use, accelerometers will be useful for manipulating applications, but without a compass module, pointing or other types of external information apps might not be possible anyway. If that's true, then each program will have some assumptions built in for normal usage. Errors can be mostly ignored since what will usually matter will be the differences between vectors in very short timeframes OR the difference between the start vectors and the current vectors. If the phone is suddenly dropped or thrown that's probably detectable as an extreme motion and maybe ignorable. /shrug --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Accelerometer Fundamentals (was Re: Neo1973 Update!)
I think the reason for using accelerometers not solid state gyros is cost. Sean quoted $3 for accels on the list a while back, while 3 axis gyros with SPI were closer to $20 last I looked, and that was for one that wasn't available yet. Production will ramp up, prices will fall and a future OpenMoko will probably use an accel and a gyro, but for now 2 accels gets you most of the way there for several $ less. Compass would be interesting, to me at least. Below being posted on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals In many environments, 1 accel + 3 axes compass would be good enough, and significantly better performing than the 2 accel solution. (compass chips are $10 or so for 3 axes) I note that that's a single axes gyro, the gold standard would be 3 axes accel, and 3 axes gyro, which will likely run $70 or so at 1K. snip Sigh - this wasn't the post I meant to comment on - but it'll do as it's late - I wrote this and the webmail system timed out, and I can't find the original post - anyway. This discusses the possibilities of two 3-axis accelerometers. Actual neo-based conclusions, and what you don't need two for are at the end. What can be done with absolutely perfect devices? Imagine two three axis accellerometers rigidly placed on each end of an arrow. How much information do you get out of these? A few moments thought should reveal that the orientation of the sensors does not matter. You can resolve the three signals into one vector and magnitude. This does not change however the devices are oriented - there is no benefit in for example skewing one 45 degrees. Considering the case in deep-space - the maths are simpler. (not a common use-case, but simpler to analyse) Holding the orientation steady, you can do perfect inertial navigation, and determine exactly where you are at all times. (in a flat space-time, but meh) What happens when we vary the orientation? Well - it's obvious that you can subtract any common accelleration that's measured by both sensors - this does not change the orientation. Remembering that we can skew the sensors against each other, and this has no effect, let's specify that they are oriented with X and Y lined up, and Z pointing in the direction of the arrow. This reveals a problem. Spin the arrow on its axis, and none of the accelererometers measure anything at all - they do not move, so they do not accelerate. (you can't get round this by moving them off-axis, as you can draw an imaginary arrow between the two accelerometers which has the same problem) Spin the arrow around its centre (it must spin around its centre logically if you've subtracted the overall acceleration) you can pick up pitch and yaw. Now, what if we add gravity in? With perfect accelerometers again, with Z axes pointing to the arrow tip. As long as the Z axes does not point in the same direction as gravity + current acceleration, then you can determine roll, pitch, yaw, and XYZ acceleration. If the Z axes does point to the acceleration vector, then you lose track of roll. In theory - with perfect accelerometers, this does not matter. Because you can never line it up perfectly. In practice, with real ones, it gets more complex. Roll signal/noise will drop as the acceleration vector closes on the Z axes, and be useless once it gets within the noise. I suppose I'd better back this up with numbers. I'm assuming specs similar to the ADXL330 - simplified a little. Assumptions: The Neo is a rigid object, and the accelerometers are rigidly fixed to it. The A/D has no noise. The accellerometer is perfect, other than a noise of 300uG/sqrt(Hz), and a temperature sensitivity of +-.1mG/C. I'm neglecting cross-axis sensitivity - which will need calibrated out, and non-linearity. For interactive use. High-pass filtering the accelerometer with a bandwidth of 10Hz - you can't filter it much more than that or you lose important 'wobbles', because you need to integrate them to come up with a position - leads to a noise floor of 300uG/sqrt(Hz) *sqrt(10Hz) = 1mG. (RMS (No, not that RMS)) Neglecting roll for the moment. 1mG is an accelleration of 1cm/s^2. If the accelerometers are spaced 10cm apart, then the radius between each and the center is 5cm, meaning the circumference of the circle is 30cm. Integrating over 1s, noise is around 3cm/s^2. After 1s, if you happen to hit an average noise peak in each accellerometer at the opposite point - something that'll happen once every 5-10 seconds or so, (absolute peaks are much worse) what happens to the pointing? Well - the velocity reads out as 6cm/s^2 wrong, which means that the position is now out by 3cm, or 10 degrees. What does this mean though? Well, if we are more or less stationary, we have 'down' very accurately. But that's almost all we have. Without roll, you cannot tell pointing. However, in the best case - phone on its back, accelleration vector down, and turning in a vehicle, you may be able to tell sharp turns, not
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Dnia niedziela, 3 czerwca 2007, Oleg Gusev napisał: Am Sonntag, 3. Juni 2007 17:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator This one needs more clarification. I doubt that it will be some ATI chipset. Looking at recently released code from coreteam it will be SMedia chip. And as user of ATI gfx cards I am happy that they do not use ATI chipsets as they (ati) have no idea how opensource way works - I see it each time when want to update X.org drivers (free one or propertiary one). -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Am Montag, 4. Juni 2007 09:09 schrieb Marcin Juszkiewicz: Looking at recently released code from coreteam it will be SMedia chip. Yes, having such chip http://www.smediatech.com/product3370.htm would be really nice. And as user of ATI gfx cards I am happy that they do not use ATI chipsets as they (ati) have no idea how opensource way works - I see it each time when want to update X.org drivers (free one or propertiary one). ATI is even more secretive about their Imageon line ;-) Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
On Sunday 03 June 2007 19:47, kenneth marken wrote: 3dacceleration? That means 3D desktop can be done now? Or what should we think of that? My guess is that the primary application of that chip will be audio/video reproduction, and perhaps some blitting improvements, the 3D part is just bonus/eyecandy material. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
My guess is that the primary application of that chip will be audio/video reproduction, and perhaps some blitting improvements, the 3D part is just bonus/eyecandy material. I do not agree with you: the neo currently struggles with 2D drawing; a real (understand: usable) zooming user interface has to achieve fluid un/zooming, so that the zooming metaphor applies to our analogical sense of space. I hope the chip will enable ZUIs, together with the accelerometers, not just eye-candy ! Anyway, these are great news !!! Cheers Florent ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. (Has anyone heard any updates concerning possible multi-touch-abilities of the neo yet?) the GPS daemon would need to be updated to allow for kallman filtering using those accelerometers, so that the GPS apps could continue pointing the phones location inside tunnels and stuff ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
On Monday 04 June 2007 11:03, Florent THIERY wrote: My guess is that the primary application of that chip will be audio/video reproduction, and perhaps some blitting improvements, the 3D part is just bonus/eyecandy material. I do not agree with you: the neo currently struggles with 2D drawing; a real (understand: usable) zooming user interface has to achieve fluid un/zooming, so that the zooming metaphor applies to our Most of the time blitting = 2D :) But seriously, even window zooming isn't real 3D, and I'm not sure that you want an extra chip there just for aqua/beryl-like eyecandy. Of course, if you already have that chip there for other reasons, like image processing, H264, hardware MP3/AAC and blitting) it wont hurt to add some extra coolness :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
On Monday 04 June 2007 12:48, Frank Coenen wrote: H264 will probably not work. If you look at the website: http://www.smediatech.com/product3370.htm The chip used by the GTA_02 will probably be the 3362-version. That supports VGA displays, but does not support H264. At least it lists MPEG4, so not all is lost :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
From official SMedia press release for Glamo3662 [1]: * MPEG4 full hardware codec function * 5M pixel high resolution picture Glamo3362 supports up to 5M pixel resolution picture function, including auto focus, auto white balance and auto exposure that are reaching the image quality of a digital camera. Presently there are three types of auto focus lenses: VCM, Piezo and Stepping Motor --- DIY camera (expansion pack...) ? * OpenGL-ES: for 3D GPS navigation software: Glamo3362 product has the pipeline structured pure hardware accelerator, and is complied with OpenGL-ES specification, so that 3D GPS can be realized inside the handheld mobile device. Together with the acceleration sensors update, this update pre-announcement looks very promising ! Just a thought: on macbooks, apple uses the hard drive's acceleration sensors (normally, safety function) as input device. Wanna tilt your neo? :) [1] http://www.smediatech.com/press8.htm ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
On Monday 04 June 2007 10:31, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the GPS daemon would need to be updated to allow for kallman filtering using those accelerometers, so that the GPS apps could continue pointing the phones location inside tunnels and stuff Unfortunately not. As already pointed out on that list, the accelerometers error would add up itself. Besides: Its only two accelerometers. You can do 2-dimensional 'navigating' with that, no more. No tilting/rotating. In his presentation (already posted but see link below) Sean says it has 2 3D accels so tilt and rotate should be available. Still no good for inertial navigation though ;-) http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8574715471341709984 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Florent THIERY wrote: Just a thought: on macbooks, apple uses the hard drive's acceleration sensors (normally, safety function) as input device. Wanna tilt your neo? :) Someone wrote a programme that'll emit star wars light saber noises when you swing your laptop around. It'd be cool to have something like that for the openmoko. :) Rory signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Wow, that all sounds really awsome! But there's one thing I don't understand: I expected the Phase 2 Hardware to be the same as in Phase 1+. So does this new informations mean P1+ will get this fantastic hardware upgrade, too or is it just for P2 which will be different to P1+ then? The Neo seems to become more and more the ultimate killer phone. :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
How does Phase1 and Phase2 differ for the user (non-dev) who will be buying in September (or whenever the release date is)? Will the first public release of these phones be Phase2 or Phase2+? Should we be hyping the wifi on the Neo1973 when discussing the phone with others, or should we be telling them that yeah the Neo1973 phone will be awesome, but *you* should wait until 2008...? I am hoping for the former, e.g. that wifi will be available on all publicly-released phones. But, I really don't know... I want the Neo1973 so much! :) -- start using Free software http://www.linux.org http://www.fsf.org It's a matter of Liberty not Price: Free Software exists to free you from the artificial constraints set by Apple and Microsoft. Free software is Unrestricted software. Get Free. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
Florent THIERY wrote: My guess is that the primary application of that chip will be audio/video reproduction, and perhaps some blitting improvements, the 3D part is just bonus/eyecandy material. I do not agree with you: the neo currently struggles with 2D drawing; a real (understand: usable) zooming user interface has to achieve fluid un/zooming, so that the zooming metaphor applies to our analogical sense of space. I hope the chip will enable ZUIs, together with the accelerometers, not just eye-candy ! You bet! After we feel comfortable enough with the software enabling the GTA01 to work as a concept/prototyping/development device, this is where I'd like to focus on (if my I'm allowed to, that is ;) -- - Michael Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Hmm. Are there any existing devices or eval boards that have this chip? On 6/4/07, Florent THIERY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From official SMedia press release for Glamo3662 [1]: ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
I imagine some creative programmer could offload some GPS calculations into 3D space... just an idea if the GPU is very efficient. ~Bradley Attila Csipa wrote: On Monday 04 June 2007 11:03, Florent THIERY wrote: My guess is that the primary application of that chip will be audio/video reproduction, and perhaps some blitting improvements, the 3D part is just bonus/eyecandy material. I do not agree with you: the neo currently struggles with 2D drawing; a real (understand: usable) zooming user interface has to achieve fluid un/zooming, so that the zooming metaphor applies to our Most of the time blitting = 2D :) But seriously, even window zooming isn't real 3D, and I'm not sure that you want an extra chip there just for aqua/beryl-like eyecandy. Of course, if you already have that chip there for other reasons, like image processing, H264, hardware MP3/AAC and blitting) it wont hurt to add some extra coolness :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
If I well understand, three accelerometers are necessary to fully define all phone's movements. Isn't it? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-May/005216.html So, what's the reason to have only two, and not three 3D accelerometers? - the cost?... 3 $US (But I don't know if it's a 2D or 3D chip). http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002085.html - the lack of free space? - ... Is-it a 3D or a 2D chip? Regards, Le dimanche 03 juin 2007 à 17:00 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. snip ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
There are two 3D accelerometers according to the talk at Tossug. -Steven On 6/4/07, kkr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I well understand, three accelerometers are necessary to fully define all phone's movements. Isn't it? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-May/005216.html So, what's the reason to have only two, and not three 3D accelerometers? - the cost?... 3 $US (But I don't know if it's a 2D or 3D chip). http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002085.html - the lack of free space? - ... Is-it a 3D or a 2D chip? Regards, Le dimanche 03 juin 2007 à 17:00 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. snip ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
If your tracking movement with 2 3D accelerometers... What would another one provide. As far as I can tell (I am not an expert...) Tracking all 6 vectors will tell you absolute movement in space. I.e, when 2 vectors point in the same direction with the same magnitude at approximately the same acceleration as gravity.. Its probably laying or positioned flat on that side. If they vary and you have 4 vectors.. (Necessary when its tilted beyond the error amount...) You can figure out its orientation and angle. If its spinning around its center (and assuming that the accelerometers are on opposite ends...) Then at least 4 vectors will point away from each other at approximately the same magnitude as its opposite but matched vector. (The other 2 may point down or up depending on if its spun flat or thrown or dropped. But they should be the same for a flat spin..) All vectors should be able to tell you the moment of movement and the phones basic translation in space... Especially if you keep track of the last known states... Right? I mean if we know the rest orientation and then suddenly get pointed at something it would seem like the 3d vectors will show a specific values and directions for the 2 ends of the phone depending on the center of the arc or movement that acted on the phone. I would say that we can get yaw, pitch and roll just fine.. But again, I am no expert. --Tim On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 18:38, kkr wrote: If I well understand, three accelerometers are necessary to fully define all phone's movements. Isn't it? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-May/005216.html So, what's the reason to have only two, and not three 3D accelerometers? - the cost?... 3 $US (But I don't know if it's a 2D or 3D chip). http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002085.html - the lack of free space? - ... Is-it a 3D or a 2D chip? Regards, ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973 Update!
Hi list, I got some news to share with you. As of Mickey's OpenMoko-talk at the Berliner LinuxTag (LinuxDay) there are some new hardware information: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. (Has anyone heard any updates concerning possible multi-touch-abilities of the neo yet?) Additional IRC-info I got: :) [16:14:29] Elrond ... is GTA02's gsm module now connected to the PMU, so that we have full control over the GSM? [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: yes [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: We can fully shutdown GSM [16:14:29] mickey|berlin that, and we can finally measure the current [16:14:29] mickey|berlin no more uncontrolled sucking from the battery [16:14:29] mickey|berlin at least we know how much pwr we consume then (via [EMAIL PROTECTED]) tim/minime ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo1973 Update!
... so excited that I completly forgot to give you my source: http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html tim/minime ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh oh ye flippin gods! yes, now we are talking phone! im seriously looking forward to seeing what people can make of this device :D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Samsung S3C2442/400 does 400 mHz, right? That almost beats the ancient and huge PC I am typing this on right now. (Just 50 mHz short). And if we count bluetooth, touch screen and form factor, that PC is now useless except as a file server! (Well, assuming the graphics accelerator is nice. It could be neat to operate a program like Wings3D on there). As for multitouch... unless it can be done without much added cost, I for one see little benefit. How practical is it, really, to use more than one finger on a screen of this size? It is a neat idea for gestures, but beyond that there is not much. Okay, I'll admit that my opinion would immediately change with the inclusion of multitouch, but for now there is a way to cope with not having it :) Thanks for the update! Bye, -Dylan McCall On 6/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi list, I got some news to share with you. As of Mickey's OpenMoko-talk at the Berliner LinuxTag (LinuxDay) there are some new hardware information: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. (Has anyone heard any updates concerning possible multi-touch-abilities of the neo yet?) Additional IRC-info I got: :) [16:14:29] Elrond ... is GTA02's gsm module now connected to the PMU, so that we have full control over the GSM? [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: yes [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: We can fully shutdown GSM [16:14:29] mickey|berlin that, and we can finally measure the current [16:14:29] mickey|berlin no more uncontrolled sucking from the battery [16:14:29] mickey|berlin at least we know how much pwr we consume then (via [EMAIL PROTECTED]) tim/minime ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
An one more thing.. Is there a camera for the phone too? Just because I saw on the Samsung's website that it has a camera support: Camera Interface supporting up to 4096 x 4096 resolution (2048 x 2048 pixel input support for scaling) http://www.samsung.com/products/semiconductor/MobileSoC/ApplicationProcessor/ARM9Series/SC32442/SC32442.htm Dan On 6/3/07, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh oh ye flippin gods! yes, now we are talking phone! im seriously looking forward to seeing what people can make of this device :D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community (i forwarded them both as they looked like they where aimed at the group in general rather then to me specific. note that when you hit reply it only sends to the original sender, not the group as a whole!) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
3dacceleration? That means 3D desktop can be done now? Or what should we think of that? Dan On 6/3/07, kenneth marken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh oh ye flippin gods! yes, now we are talking phone! im seriously looking forward to seeing what people can make of this device :D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
Hmm, does that list mean that the GTA-02 will lose the GPS and the bluetooth? Also, it would be nice to know when GTA-02 has been pushed back to. Does anyone have any information on that? Thanks. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
Does this mean the Neo 1973 has this hardware? That would just be fantastic :) When will Phase 2 be ready? 3d desktop would be really cool too, but I think the desktop at the moment is best for such a small screen.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh That would be f%%%ing great =) And what's about price of GTA-02? =#=-===-===#=--- - -- -=#=-- - - - - Best regards, Denis ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Excellent news. I'm looking forward do doing development on such a rich platform, in terms of both the hardware and software. Any word on what specific chip the graphics acceleration will be? Also, I know people have been asking a lot for Wifi, which is definitely a good feature considering the Neo's competition. I'm curious if anyone has compiled a listing of the hardware spec changes into one place. I'd like to find out what the hardware revision history is like. If its on the Wiki, or somewhere obviously, I apologize in advance. Also, how open is FIC being with the hardware design? Are PCB layouts available? Thanks, ~Zack ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
No... Look at the rest ;-) That would also mean that GTA02 doesn't have a gsm-chip :-p The GTA02 part simply says what it has extra to the GTAb_v4 On 6/3/07, Richard Boehme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, does that list mean that the GTA-02 will lose the GPS and the bluetooth? Also, it would be nice to know when GTA-02 has been pushed back to. Does anyone have any information on that? Thanks. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Sounds great! Now I have to figure out if I wait for phase 2 or get a phase 1 device ASAP and upgrade later... I really need a phone NOW but I also need a phone with Wifi, Accelerometers and more raw power! B) Ortwin On 6/3/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi list, I got some news to share with you. As of Mickey's OpenMoko-talk at the Berliner LinuxTag (LinuxDay) there are some new hardware information: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh And the finally thing everybody has been asking for: 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it. (Has anyone heard any updates concerning possible multi-touch-abilities of the neo yet?) Additional IRC-info I got: :) [16:14:29] Elrond ... is GTA02's gsm module now connected to the PMU, so that we have full control over the GSM? [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: yes [16:14:29] stefan_schmidt Elrond: We can fully shutdown GSM [16:14:29] mickey|berlin that, and we can finally measure the current [16:14:29] mickey|berlin no more uncontrolled sucking from the battery [16:14:29] mickey|berlin at least we know how much pwr we consume then (via [EMAIL PROTECTED]) tim/minime ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Am Sonntag, 3. Juni 2007 17:00 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator This one needs more clarification. I doubt that it will be some ATI chipset. Oleg. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
2007/6/3, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh Well, GTA-01 is now definitely dead on arrival. Without finished software is hasn't any chance. My bet: it won't be sold at all, nobody would buy it now. GTA-02 will be the first model on sale. Am I correct? -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
2007/6/3, Tomasz Zielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2007/6/3, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh Well, GTA-01 is now definitely dead on arrival. Without finished software is hasn't any chance. My bet: it won't be sold at all, nobody would buy it now. GTA-02 will be the first model on sale. Am I correct? It's not correct. Harald Welte's blog [1] from yesterday says The first couple of hundred GTA01Bv4 phnes have been produced by the FIC's mass production factory in mainland china. I'll personally do QA on 10% of those phones throughout the second week of June. We want to make sure we don't have any mishaps with our first customers, do we? Hans [1] http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/02/#20070602-busy-busy-busyhttp://gnumonks.org/%7Elaforge/weblog/2007/06/02/#20070602-busy-busy-busy ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Developers, developers, developers!!! (Steve Balmer style, if you know what I mean). It will be a while for GTA_02 to come out. The GTA_01 batch will probably be sold to (community)developers. Hardware will of course be continually upgraded, but you have to start somewere with the software. There has been much talk on this list for a discount on the GTA-02 device, if you already bought a gta-01. Remember: The first GTA-02 samples have just hit the FIC office in Taiwan. It will be a while until they will be massproduced. These are just the prototypes. On 6/3/07, Tomasz Zielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2007/6/3, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature: -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator -256MByte of Flash Memory -WiFi -updated battery: 1700mAh Well, GTA-01 is now definitely dead on arrival. Without finished software is hasn't any chance. My bet: it won't be sold at all, nobody would buy it now. GTA-02 will be the first model on sale. Am I correct? -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
Well, GTA-01 is now definitely dead on arrival. Without finished software is hasn't any chance. My bet: it won't be sold at all, nobody would buy it now. GTA-02 will be the first model on sale. Am I correct? Not a chance. It's a common mistake (sometimes called The Osborne Mistake after Osborne self-cannibalized (around 1982) by releasing upgrade specs for a future machine that they didn't survive long enough to sell) but it isn't one that applies here: * the GTA-01 is late enough that noone is going to expect the GTA-02 before 2008 (or maybe 2009 :-} ) * the market for the early-adopter -01 wasn't that big anyway, and they'll probably still sell every unit they make, because they haven't made that many - but they'll sell to the right people to make the next models more interesting to the broader audience * people we trust on this list have been very forthcoming about the process (after all, if we *didn't* expect a much improved GTA-02 why would anyone take the GTA-01 seriously as a platform?) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 Update!
On 6/3/07, Tomasz Zielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Well, GTA-01 is now definitely dead on arrival. Without finished software is hasn't any chance. My bet: it won't be sold at all, nobody would buy it now. GTA-02 will be the first model on sale. /snip Actually, I think this is great news for developers... personally, I was a little worried about getting my own phone since so many power users would be vying for them... what the openmoko team has done is created a great base platform for the developers to start working on, and given those power users something to hold out for... and this means less competition for the p1 phones for those of us that are going to be making the system software work for the rest of the community... Sean... you rock! -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
