Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:55:18 +0100 arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: And I can't see the need for gender-specific pronouns at all. well, since a lot of (most?) languages have those, there's certainly a need for that :-) I think it could be just historical. Nowadays, you should act the same regardless of the gender of the person you're talking to or about except in some situations. At least in a perfect world, where a worker/colleague of either gender is considered the same value. That could push the relationship zone back in the perfect world's internet age, though, because it would be the only reason to ask about someone's gender. Some people prefer no one to know they are interested in someone. The solution is to be gender-specific from the very beginning :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
I think it could be just historical. Nowadays, you should act the same regardless of the gender of the person you're talking to or about except in some situations. At least in a perfect world, where a worker/colleague of either gender is considered the same value. what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:12 PM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: I think it could be just historical. Nowadays, you should act the same regardless of the gender of the person you're talking to or about except in some situations. At least in a perfect world, where a worker/colleague of either gender is considered the same value. what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. To me it seems obvious that ones own impression of something is heavily based on the language you use (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). If you make a difference between two persons (by assigning them different genders) you will also put values on the difference even if it isn't your intention. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:30:13 +0100 Krister Svanlund adsumm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:12 PM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: [...] what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. To me it seems obvious that ones own impression of something is heavily based on the language you use (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). If you make a difference between two persons (by assigning them different genders) you will also put values on the difference even if it isn't your intention. [...] This is getting way off-topic, but love the discussion. I will make two observations: o Arne, I do agree with the point that you are making, but English (and other languages) uses the male pronoun by default, and I sympathise with people unhappy with that status quo. o I am not quite sure what to make of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. On one hand, I think that Chomsky, and people like Steven Pinker demonstrate quite conclusively that language is a basic human instinct, and not a cultural construct. On the other hand, it would seem obvious that the ideas, and language one grows up with influence one's outlook. On the whole, I lean towards Chomsky. Regards, Gora (who is still pondering the influence of languages like Hindi, which assign gender not only to animals, but also to inanimate objects) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:30:13 +0100 Krister Svanlund adsumm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 2:12 PM, arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: I think it could be just historical. Nowadays, you should act the same regardless of the gender of the person you're talking to or about except in some situations. At least in a perfect world, where a worker/colleague of either gender is considered the same value. what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. In different situations, I myself assign different values to people of different genders, yes. This is usually backed up by statistics - for example, I assume more men than women are capable of heavy lifting ;) Other people are likely to do the same. Aren't you? To me it seems obvious that ones own impression of something is heavily based on the language you use (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis). If you make a difference between two persons (by assigning them different genders) you will also put values on the difference even if it isn't your intention. That is what I meant. Moreover, I believe that all people impose different behavior on themselves depending on whether they're talking to a male or a female. Someone might unintentionally treat women more lightly or try to compete with men... these are only guesses, but I think that it's impossible to treat both males and females exactly the same in all situations. As for the influence of language, I think it's not the only influence. Most of the contacts people have are personal, and there is no reason not to differentiate genders. This should make people approach different genders differently regardless of the language they use. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. In different situations, I myself assign different values to people of different genders, yes. This is usually backed up by statistics - for example, I assume more men than women are capable of heavy lifting ;) Other people are likely to do the same. Aren't you? i don't really see, inhowfar difference necessarily must impose a hierarchy. my laptop's screen is certainly different from my parents tv -- but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 23:28:11 +0100 arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: what exactly has one's value to do with the gender or the pronoun you are using to refer to him or her? your proposition is based on the assumption that one gender is less valueable than the other, hence, using the male or female pronoun would express a judgement. In different situations, I myself assign different values to people of different genders, yes. This is usually backed up by statistics - for example, I assume more men than women are capable of heavy lifting ;) Other people are likely to do the same. Aren't you? i don't really see, inhowfar difference necessarily must impose a hierarchy. my laptop's screen is certainly different from my parents tv -- but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. I think you missed my point - it was only to stress that people see and treat genders differently. The difference in value I was referring to was suitability for some things. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
AFAIK, German has a neutral gender in addition to masculine and feminine, but I know even less about German than Spanish. german neutral pronoun es is very similar to english it (and not only etymologically), ie it is only used for nouns not being either mal or female (and diminutives like Mädchen which is a d'v of Maid/Magd, girl). it certainly is not applicable for the case in question. as in almost any other language the issue of male vs female came up not until the 60s/70s and there's no viable solution (if it is possible to find any). we use er/sie which equaly he/she but german even uses male vs femal in nouns like Schaffner (conductor) or Maurer (mason) -- which get a suffix in/innen (sing/pl) for the female form. thus, in most texts paying attention to gender it is written Maurer/in or MaurerIn (and now, zealots try to dinstinguish themselves by writing Maurer_in ... ) I wonder how this issue was solved in the past. Such a usual problem must have been solved centuries ago in the English literature, no? hasn't been an issue until recently -- no problem == no solution. in societies with clearly separated spheres of action for man and woman (ideologically, reality was often far more complex), the need never occured -- addressing a female doctor never was necessary: doctors simply were men. dr johnson probably wouldn't have understood the question at all ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 12:14:43 +0100 arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de wrote: AFAIK, German has a neutral gender in addition to masculine and feminine, but I know even less about German than Spanish. german neutral pronoun es is very similar to english it (and not only etymologically), ie it is only used for nouns not being either mal or female (and diminutives like Mädchen which is a d'v of Maid/Magd, girl). it certainly is not applicable for the case in question. I know for sure that Estonian language has a gender-neutral pronoun. In exchange, it doesn't have any gender-specific pronouns, what I find strange, being used to Polish, in which you can't virtually say anything without being gender-specific. as in almost any other language the issue of male vs female came up not until the 60s/70s and there's no viable solution (if it is possible to find any). we use er/sie which equaly he/she but german even uses male vs femal in nouns like Schaffner (conductor) or Maurer (mason) -- which get a suffix in/innen (sing/pl) for the female form. thus, in most texts paying attention to gender it is written Maurer/in or MaurerIn (and now, zealots try to dinstinguish themselves by writing Maurer_in ... ) It's been an issue in Polish language and culture recently, too - some of the functions in society had been traditionally assigned to one or the other gender, and some to both. The words not having other-gendered counterparts have to be coped with. Doktor is normally male, but can be used as (implicitly) female, and the use is widely accepted. However, most words can be made explicitly female - doktor would become doktorka. The most famous example of the latter is psycholog and psycholożka (psychologist), which are accepted by the Polish Language Board, but sound extremely cheesy in my opinion. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
Something I love about Turkish language, almost nothing is gender specific, and it is hard to be so. The only common gender specific words are the ones describing family relations. We have very precise words for sister of father or so but as I said, gender is irrelevant for the rest. In German, not only words related to people, but words themselves have genders, which I find annoying. The most funny example I remember is Das Meer(sea, neutral), Die See(sea, feminine), Der See(lake masculine). Doktor is normally male, but can be used as (implicitly) female, and the use is widely accepted. However, most words can be made explicitly female - doktor would become doktorka. The most famous example of the latter is psycholog and psycholożka (psychologist), which are accepted by the Polish Language Board, but sound extremely cheesy in my opinion. This is similar in Bulgarian, as all professions are male by default, and have female counterparts. Objects also have genders, and they are made plural etc. depending on their gender. Oops, I think this thread is drifting away, sorry. -- - Atilla Filiz Eindhoven University of Technology Embedded Systems, Master's Programme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
2010/1/19 omcomali@porcupinefactory.org: I know for sure that Estonian language has a gender-neutral pronoun. In exchange, it doesn't have any gender-specific pronouns, what I find strange, being used to Polish, in which you can't virtually say anything without being gender-specific. I am Estonian and yes we use the same word for both he and she. I think the same is in other finno-ugric languages too. And I can't see the need for gender-specific pronouns at all. 2010/1/15 Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com: Historically, yes, they and their are plural. But in real current (UK) English, they are being used more and more also as gender-independent singular. That might sound surprising, but it is the case. Regards, Neil So if someone says something about one certain person and you don't know who is he/she talking about and if that person is male or female, then you can ask who are they?? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
2010/1/19 Margo keegiv...@gmail.com: So if someone says something about one certain person and you don't know who is he/she talking about and if that person is male or female, then you can ask who are they?? Hmm, I'm not sure. I think I'd say who is that?. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
And I can't see the need for gender-specific pronouns at all. well, since a lot of (most?) languages have those, there's certainly a need for that :-) So if someone says something about one certain person and you don't know who is he/she talking about and if that person is male or female, then you can ask who are they?? the releavnt part is imo who -- and that is gender indifferent. who is [it/this/that]? would be the question here, i think. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: Re: gender-neutral English usage
On Tuesday 19. January 2010 17:55:18, arne anka anka wrote: well, since a lot of (most?) languages have those, there's certainly a need for that :-) And only the most important words have the privilege to have two or more genders. In Germany, it's the almighty Joghurt. It's allowed to use all three genders! (Really. [1]) ;) [1] http://www.duden.de/definition/joghurt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
