Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  "Robin Paulson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 13/11/2007, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > My requirements are:  640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies),
> > >

> some of us have been talking off list about a module from Compulab
> that may be suitable. it is an ARM device, has a ready to go Angstrom
> linux image, 640 x 480 screen, gprs, wi-fi, bluetooth and gps. all it
> needs is a case. see:
> 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270

Yeah, I've been following what's been mentioned about that.  Pretty
interesting, but pricey, even if a volume purchase can be worked out
(~$750).  Odd that it's only 11b.   I could justify cobbling together a
case of my own making, but I think the price of the device is simply too
much to justify it.

I don't know much about the availability of GPRS devices et al, but
would it be possible to retrofit one to an existing device?
Alternatively, CDMA modems are avilable in PCMCIA devices - how
about a MiniPCI version on a device.  This is all guess work.

-- 
Peter Naulls - [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.chocky.org/

Linux hints wiki - http://www.linuxhints.info/

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[hank williams]

>
> Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does
> the UTC universal.
> I wouldn't have posted here after all and named those two phones
> otherwise.
> The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category?  Of
> course, I do want
> to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to
> make it do so if
> it already runs linux.
>
> >
> > And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This
> > does nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more
> > friendly and tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people
> > will probably be more friendly to you.
> >
> >
> With respect, you seem to be a bit confused and your reasoning is
> backwards.  The initial responses I got were clearly trolls (by
> definition _they_ unfriendly and annoying people). I made an effort to
> be clear about what I was
> asking and haven't demanded anything, and the first responders had made
> no effort to really read what I said.  Save your criticism for them.
>
> Unfortunately, it just looks like to outsiders that people are getting
> overly defensive it if looks like I
> might be trying to criticize OpenMoko/Neo.  Let's try and restrict our
> opinions to what I'm really asked.
>
> No, Peter, honestly, you do sound really mean and super aggressive. I am
trying to say this in a way that does not further incite your testosterone,
but the fact that several people on this generally respectful list are
saying the same thing (and this doesn't come up often) should be an
indicator. I have no reason to say this other than that your tone is
distinctly different from the rest of the list. And by the way I am plenty
critical of openmoko re 850mhz. This has nothing to do with being defensive.
I am just calling it like I see it.

Regards
Hank
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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Robin Paulson]

On 13/11/2007, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My requirements are:  640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies),
> >
> [snip broken up requirements]
>
> Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does
> the UTC universal.
> The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category?  Of
> course, I do want
> to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to
> make it do so if
> it already runs linux.

some of us have been talking off list about a module from Compulab
that may be suitable. it is an ARM device, has a ready to go Angstrom
linux image, 640 x 480 screen, gprs, wi-fi, bluetooth and gps. all it
needs is a case. see:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Compulab_EM-X270

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Ortwin Regel]

On Nov 13, 2007 1:12 AM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ortwin Regel wrote:
> > On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480,
> > it's still tiny)
> >
> > The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text
> > input but there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around
> > to solve that.
> How about in terms of viewing movies or graphics - is that sensible; the
> pixels are surely minuscule?
>
It's quite hard to see the individual pixels but as far as I'm concerned
this is a good thing. Things look very sharp. Of course, some pictures and
videos might have to be scaled up to fit the screen. The Neo is not the best
virtual picture frame or movie theatre but it should be great for viewing
high res videos and photos (high res for a mobile device) on the go.
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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

Ortwin Regel wrote:
On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480,
it's still tiny)

The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text 
input but there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around 
to solve that.
How about in terms of viewing movies or graphics - is that sensible; the 
pixels are surely minuscule?



and the ruggedness of the device

I can't say too much about that but it seems pretty solid to me. I 
read about other people's buttons breaking and that sounds like a 
realistic issue if you use them a lot. You should get some sort of 
protector foil for the screen as the danger of damaging it is always 
big, especially with touchscreens.


My requirements are:  640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies),


[snip broken up requirements]

Yes, I'm quite aware that the GTA02 meets these requirements, as does 
the UTC universal. 
I wouldn't have posted here after all and named those two phones 
otherwise. 
The question is, do any _other_ phones also fall into this category?  Of 
course, I do want
to run OpenMoko, and will do the necessary work if really required to 
make it do so if
it already runs linux. 



And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This 
does nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more 
friendly and tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people 
will probably be more friendly to you.



With respect, you seem to be a bit confused and your reasoning is 
backwards.  The initial responses I got were clearly trolls (by 
definition _they_ unfriendly and annoying people). I made an effort to 
be clear about what I was
asking and haven't demanded anything, and the first responders had made 
no effort to really read what I said.  Save your criticism for them. 

Unfortunately, it just looks like to outsiders that people are getting 
overly defensive it if looks like I
might be trying to criticize OpenMoko/Neo.  Let's try and restrict our 
opinions to what I'm really asked.


Thanks for your feedback.



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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[justin daly]

careful mike, don't feed the trolls.

http://peternaullsappreciationsociety.blogspot.com/

i hope we can all appreciate mr naulls and his brief foray down at the very
level of the perceived trollish abuse he experience: inflicting it back on a
respected and valued member of our community. hatred + hatred = ???.
hopefully this equation doesn't go exponential!

but after seeing the picture of his son, i hope he just had a bad day!

ickle baby naulls! :D

p.s., me, i like the june 12th blog post. sic: "A respectful culture - We
treat each other with respect"

xo
j

On Nov 12, 2007 12:39 AM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mike Hodson wrote:
> > On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> And yet some people are dissatisfied with its specifications and are
> >> discussing other phones, so I can easily conclude that your (sic)
> >> a troll.
> >
> > Yet by your condescending attitude you appear to be more troll-like than
> him.
>
> Well deserved; I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation.  Was
> there any value to your content-free posts?  No.  Then you'd also
> do well to say nothing instead of throwing around more accusations.
>
> I seem to have confused this list with one where open and intelligent
> discussion takes place regarding the merits or otherwise of OpenMoko
> and its hardware targets.  Clearly you aren't interested in discussing
> those.
>
>
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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Ortwin Regel]

On Nov 11, 2007 6:33 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480,
> it's still tiny)

The screen is small but usable. The biggest problem I see is text input but
there are some interesting projects and ideas flying around to solve that.

and the ruggedness of the device

I can't say too much about that but it seems pretty solid to me. I read
about other people's buttons breaking and that sounds like a realistic issue
if you use them a lot. You should get some sort of protector foil for the
screen as the danger of damaging it is always big, especially with
touchscreens.

My requirements are:  640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies),

>From my experience with devices, the GTA02 hardware should do that pretty
easily. I have not idea how long it will take until the necessary software
is written/ported, though.


> runs Linux

It obviously does that.

wireless access

 Do you mean WLAN? The GTA02 will have the hardware and probably the
software after a short while.

can make occasional phone calls.
>
The GTA01 already makes phone calls.

And a general note: Your tone is very agressive and demanding. This does
nothing but annoy people. I'd recommend you try to be more friendly and
tolerant of seemingly unnecessary comments and people will probably be more
friendly to you.

Ortwin
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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Stroller]

On 11 Nov 2007, at 18:06, Giles Jones wrote:

On 11 Nov 2007, at 17:33, Peter Naulls wrote:


For price comparison, the UTC is about $350 and Neo is $450.


HTC Universal?

If you want one of these get one, but OpenMoko is far from being as  
reliable and complete as the Windows Mobile OS on it.


I had one of these (an O2 branded XDA IIi, I think) and it was TERRIBLE.

Mine would reboot for no reason - typically when I pressed the button  
to answer a call - and generally reminded me of Windows 95 in  
stability terms. A friend had an Orange-branded model and had noticed  
that he'd received few calls the last couple of days when someone  
managed to get him on his landline to say his mobile wasn't working -  
it turned out that, whilst the GUI and organiser functions were  
working fine, the phone software had crashed and required a reboot.


It'll be a long time before I again buy a device running Windows  
Mobile - I didn't realise that Linux work on this platform was so far  
advanced as to make it a realistic possibility - but one of my  
reasons for desiring a Neo (or an openMoko-compatible device,  
generally) is that I can be optimistic that if problems such as these  
arise then they will get fixed. For me, this is the joy of OSS.


Stroller.

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

Mike Hodson wrote:

On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And yet some people are dissatisfied with its specifications and are
discussing other phones, so I can easily conclude that your (sic)
a troll.


Yet by your condescending attitude you appear to be more troll-like than him.


Well deserved; I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation.  Was 
there any value to your content-free posts?  No.  Then you'd also

do well to say nothing instead of throwing around more accusations.

I seem to have confused this list with one where open and intelligent
discussion takes place regarding the merits or otherwise of OpenMoko
and its hardware targets.  Clearly you aren't interested in discussing
those.


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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Mike Hodson]

On Nov 11, 2007 6:55 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And yet some people are dissatisfied with its specifications and are
> discussing other phones, so I can easily conclude that your (sic)
> a troll.

Yet by your condescending attitude you appear to be more troll-like than him.

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Mike Hodson]

On Nov 11, 2007 6:50 PM, Peter Naulls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Giles Jones wrote:
> > HTC Universal?
>
> Yes, you snipped that part.

He snipped out you calling it a UTC Universal.

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

andy selby wrote:

Anyone willing to placate my concerns, or point out other phones that
meet my requirements (must fill _all_ the requirements I listed, so
please check carefully).


Since your asking on the openmoko list I'd be surprised if anyone
recommends anything but the neo1973


And yet some people are dissatisfied with its specifications and are
discussing other phones, so I can easily conclude that your (sic)
a troll.


As a final point, I'll note I'm a long (long)
time embedded and ARM linux developer, so don't mind doing occasional
work to improve either kernel or userspace stuff.


Yes I can definatly recommend you buy a neo1973


That doesn't follow at all.  What is your justification here of the Neo
over the HTC Universal in this respect?


Also, if you're following up, please don't unnecessarily quote
signatures, taglines and bits you aren't responding to.


O.K. I wont


Thanks, but also not snipping attribution lines would be appreciated.

If anyone has anything _constructive_ to reply with and isn't just 
replying for the sake of making noise, I'd like to hear it.   If not,

then please don't annoy others with pointless posts.





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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

Giles Jones wrote:


On 11 Nov 2007, at 17:33, Peter Naulls wrote:


For price comparison, the UTC is about $350 and Neo is $450.



HTC Universal?


Yes, you snipped that part.

If you want one of these get one, but OpenMoko is far from being as 
reliable and complete as the Windows Mobile OS on it.


I have little interest in Windows Mobile, which is another part you
snipped.  I want Linux, probably OpenMoko.

It's a rather large phone, not exactly a fast device (it's a few years 
out of date now) and the final Neo device will be faster in numerous ways.


Well, that's the one helpful thing you posted.  But what are we talking?
Either a subjective comparison or detailed technical comparison
of processor, graphics and bus, memory speeds would be fine.


Perhaps a Nokia N800 or N810 is what you need at this time?


Or not, not having phone capabilities, which is another requirement
you snipped (Skype notwithstanding).




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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[andy selby]

> Anyone willing to placate my concerns, or point out other phones that
> meet my requirements (must fill _all_ the requirements I listed, so
> please check carefully).

Since your asking on the openmoko list I'd be surprised if anyone
recommends anything but the neo1973

> As a final point, I'll note I'm a long (long)
> time embedded and ARM linux developer, so don't mind doing occasional
> work to improve either kernel or userspace stuff.

Yes I can definatly recommend you buy a neo1973

> Also, if you're following up, please don't uneccesarily quote
> signatures, taglines and bits you aren't responding to.

O.K. I wont

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Re: OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Giles Jones]

On 11 Nov 2007, at 17:33, Peter Naulls wrote:


For price comparison, the UTC is about $350 and Neo is $450.



HTC Universal?

If you want one of these get one, but OpenMoko is far from being as  
reliable and complete as the Windows Mobile OS on it.


It's a rather large phone, not exactly a fast device (it's a few years  
out of date now) and the final Neo device will be faster in numerous  
ways.


Perhaps a Nokia N800 or N810 is what you need at this time?


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OpenMoko phone comparisons

[Peter Naulls]

I, like many others have been following the Neo development with
interest, but I still have some reservations.   No, it's not about the
quad band issue that so many here in the US feel compelled to complain
about - I'm in Southern California and would be using T-Mobile.

I am however in the aproximately 1% (allow me some exageration here) of
the population of the Western world lacking a mobile phone.  For me to
get one requires considerable justification.  For one, the extortionate
situation in the US is a considerable barrier, although I'd almost
certainly use T-Mobile pay-as-you-go which would cost me about $100/year
(I make very few calls).

On the other hand, the Neo does provide some considerable justification,
but I have concerns about the screen size (even though it's 640x480,
it's still tiny) and the ruggedness of the device and of course the
device. The other phone I'm considering in preference which also runs
OpenMoko is the UTC universal (plenty of options under 'Jasjar' on
ebay).

My requirements are:  640x480 (for suitably transcoded movies), runs
Linux, wireless access and can make occasional phone calls.

The UTC has the benefit of a physical keyboard, although the phone is
relatively large - also means a larger screen.   Also, its wireless is
limited to 11Mbit (that's not such an issue though).  One downside is
although the device has near comprehensive Linux driver support, it
isn't open hardware, and there could be issues (not that the Neo doesn't
at present but those are being worked on).

For price comparison, the UTC is about $350 and Neo is $450.

Anyone willing to placate my concerns, or point out other phones that
meet my requirements (must fill _all_ the requirements I listed, so
please check carefully).  As a final point, I'll note I'm a long (long)
time embedded and ARM linux developer, so don't mind doing occasional
work to improve either kernel or userspace stuff.

Also, if you're following up, please don't uneccesarily quote
signatures, taglines and bits you aren't responding to.

Thanks in advance.


-- 
Peter Naulls - [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.chocky.org/

RISC OS Community Wiki - add your own content   | http://www.riscos.info/

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