Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
On Friday 02 February 2007 13:43:52 Dave Crossland wrote: For the recipients who are on Jabber (such as Jabber conversant phones) this is a good idea. For everyone else, MMS as the least preferred but available option is quite neccessary. Tho I do wonder how much GPRS traffic it would generate to constantly be connect to a Jabber server? For people who have flatrate GPRS, this is obviously a very nice solution but for the rest of us it might turn out to be rather expensive? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
On 02/02/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 02 February 2007 13:43:52 Dave Crossland wrote: For the recipients who are on Jabber (such as Jabber conversant phones) this is a good idea. For everyone else, MMS as the least preferred but available option is quite neccessary. Tho I do wonder how much GPRS traffic it would generate to constantly be connect to a Jabber server? I imagine that low bandwidth proxies will emerge for all kinds of protocols both as the developed-world power users like OpenMoko owners want cheap omnipresence, and as the developing world wants to make best use of very limited bandwidth available. www.loband.org is a web proxy that does this, designed for the 3rd world, and I use it on my mobile often. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
On Friday 02 February 2007 14:13:32 Dave Crossland wrote: I imagine that low bandwidth proxies will emerge for all kinds of protocols both as the developed-world power users like OpenMoko owners want cheap omnipresence, and as the developing world wants to make best use of very limited bandwidth available. Well for instant messaging, a very important part of the BW consumed could be keep alive packets for the TCP session for which low bandwith proxies can't really help much and you're at mercy of the NAT timeout of your GPRS provider... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
I think a good Jabber client could totally supplant MMS - it support file transfers, which is all MMS really does (I think), as well as things MMS never dreamed of like encryption and presence and etc. Putting a good mobile-UI on, say, Psi or one of the other open source Jabber clients shouldn't be too difficult. Unless there's already one that I don't know about? Another feature could actually be an SMS-to-Jabber gateway that runs on your phone, so as long as your phone has power (and permission to get on the net, etc) your SMSs will get gatewayed to Jabber so you don't miss them if you happen to leave your phone at home. --pj On Thursday, Feb 1, 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz writes: On 2/1/07 4:30 AM, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, who uses MMS? Only pretty much the majority of actual cellphone users in Europe, based on the market research and carrier requirements I've read... IMHO, only because nobody has given us anything better. We're trying to do that. So I asked the guys to ignore MMS for the now. If this is an issue I'll put resources on this in the future. Right now, I'd much prefer to see solutions that use GPRS such an IM / Email / ... Seems like the typical user would just email and attach media and/or just s/ftp Typical _Linux_ user, maybe. This is the sort of thing which (in my view) represents something of a disconnect between the goals of having as open a phone as possible and selling a lot of phones... You might be right. But I personally feel that MMS is fundamentally flawed. Costs aside, it's just not the way I think media should be transferred. The benefits are just too low for the end user. We're trying to fix this. Really guys, we're trying to rethink lots of things with OpenMoko. I don't want to do the same things just running under FOSS. We'd be missing out on a huge invitation to innovate both as a company and a community. Why not use the flexibility and rethink how we want these devices to work -- as end users -- not just for geeks but for everyone? I'm not saying we'll get things right the first time. Just that we're going to try our best ;-) _This_ opportunity is what makes me excited about OpenMoko. Not (simply) the fact that it's FOSS based. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
On Thu, Feb 01, 2007 at 08:48:15AM -0600, Jonathon Suggs wrote: That sounds very interesting. I very much like the concept and look forward to seeing how it is implemented. Although it is an overall travesty, Windows Mobile has a single messaging program that you can configure all of your different inboxes in (SMS, MMS, POP, IMAP, etc) but they are all separate entities. When sending, you still have to choose which account you are sending from (but that is not a bad thing IMHO). After reading this e-mail list, it seems to me that no one here wants a different inbox or handler interface for each type of message (I know it annoys me), so having something that unifies all text-based communications protocols would be a good idea. And from what I've seen, on other phone platforms, unless they're trying to up-sell you on particular communications mediums (e.g. e-mail is an add-on), they like to keep their messaging in one app. As for sending messages, I would think it would only need to prompt you when you're sending a new message (Maybe in the recipient lookup window, when you select a recipient, it displays all the ways it knows of to send the message to that person and you pick one). If you're replying to an existing message, it should be able to discern what communications channel to use based on the one that the incoming message arrived through (I know some e-mail clients do this now; replying with the e-mail address the original sender used, so long as it is configured as an account in the program). But personally, I would like an option to switch a reply to a different communication channel (e.g. switch to MMS if receiver supports it and I don't want my message split every 160 chars; or switch to e-mail or IM if I have that capability on the phone/plan and the appropriate contact info listed for the recipient), but for most users, just replying on the same channel that the message came in on would be sufficient. On the other hand, I see some very big hurdles. First, you would have to know a lot (not really, but just follow) about your contact as SMS, IM and email are different protocols owned/managed by different entities (SMS/MMS=carrier, IM=aim,yahoo,google,etc, email=email provider). Also, this messaging client would have to know how to talk over all of the IM protocols, SMS/MMS (has standards, but different carriers sometimes do different things), and email (pretty standard protocol, so no biggie). As someone pointed out to me this morning, half of that is taken care of, though it may still require some adaption. There is a FreeDesktop.org project called Telepathy (telepathy.freedesktop.org) which aims provide a unified framework for all forms of real time conversations, including instant messaging, IRC, voice calls and video calls. It uses DBus to provide that framework, and back-ends to talk to each communications channel. It is at least theoretically possible to write an SMS and/or MMS module, and possibly an e-mail module to provide the back-haul communications. This isn't to say that it can't be done, and I'm sure that it has all been thought through, but it ain't going to be easy to get people (especially carriers) to work with you. Agreed, which is why I would make the OpenMoKo messaging program as flexible as possible, so as to provide as much choice to the user and accomodate the carriers as much as possible (be a good sport). Not overly worried, but it is easy to get caught up in the excitement. I've seen quite a few posts about ideas that evolve around everyone all having a Neo... And that just isn't going to happen (especially in the near term). Just thought I would give a quick reality check. Neither am I, as at the end of the day, this IS an Open Source project, so anything can be changed if necessary, but (Like a lot of other people on this mailing list, I imagine), I want things to be designed RIGHT, so as to minimize the number of re-writes we have to go through before we get something that can work for the wide variety of people who WILL have a MoKo. Yes, if/when we get to a situation where there are a lot of MoKo devices running around, it can open a lot more possibilities, but there is no way in the foreseeable future that I will be able to get most of the people who are important to me to buy a Neo (Either because they're not on a GSM network and don't want to switch, or they don't want to pay that much for a phone). Getting the mobile industry to be a more open environment for everyone is a great idea and one that I support, but as they say Rome wasn't built in a day. In general, mobile carriers are some of the biggest control freaks, so needless to say, they aren't going to welcome these type of projects with open arms. As do I, but I see this as more difficult than trying to convince my family to switch carriers. As it is, even with a phone that is entirely supported by my carrier's network (But not purchased from them),
RE: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
Well, you're not wrong, certainly: people use MMS even though it _is_ horribly broken (and expensive, etc.) I guess the point I'm attempting to make here is that in addition to the challenges in just getting a working phone out the door, you sign up to take on what seems, to me, anyway, to be a pretty substantial educational exercise. If there's going to be a substitute or replacement for MMS that the average consumer will get, then I withdraw (most of) my comments around disconnects. My main point--which I think still stands--is that people have certain expectations of what cellphones will be able to do... -Original Message- From: Sean Moss-Pultz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 1/31/2007 5:46 PM To: David Schlesinger; Jon Phillips; Harald Welte Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org; Robert Michel; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Suresh Kumar Sugguna Subject: Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko On 2/1/07 4:30 AM, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, who uses MMS? Only pretty much the majority of actual cellphone users in Europe, based on the market research and carrier requirements I've read... IMHO, only because nobody has given us anything better. We're trying to do that. So I asked the guys to ignore MMS for the now. If this is an issue I'll put resources on this in the future. Right now, I'd much prefer to see solutions that use GPRS such an IM / Email / ... Seems like the typical user would just email and attach media and/or just s/ftp Typical _Linux_ user, maybe. This is the sort of thing which (in my view) represents something of a disconnect between the goals of having as open a phone as possible and selling a lot of phones... You might be right. But I personally feel that MMS is fundamentally flawed. Costs aside, it's just not the way I think media should be transferred. The benefits are just too low for the end user. We're trying to fix this. Really guys, we're trying to rethink lots of things with OpenMoko. I don't want to do the same things just running under FOSS. We'd be missing out on a huge invitation to innovate both as a company and a community. Why not use the flexibility and rethink how we want these devices to work -- as end users -- not just for geeks but for everyone? I'm not saying we'll get things right the first time. Just that we're going to try our best ;-) _This_ opportunity is what makes me excited about OpenMoko. Not (simply) the fact that it's FOSS based. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: You might be right. But I personally feel that MMS is fundamentally flawed. Costs aside, it's just not the way I think media should be transferred. The benefits are just too low for the end user. We're trying to fix this. I agree. I have never used MMS, and very rarely use SMS. I use email for just about any correspondence that I have (including to/from my phone). Now, that doesn't mean that I am a representation of the *average* user, but despite its drawbacks email is a much better means of transmitting written communication. Now, MMS and SMS are *very* popular. However, I think that is also due largely to the fact that you can only do some basic things with them...and most of the phones these days are only capable of doing basic things. So, Sean is correct that MMS is flawed and limited, but lets not shun the platforms. One thing to consider) is that even if we can do amazing things, we are still going to have to interact with people using normal/whatever phones. So even if SMS/MMS isn't going to be the ideal platform for sending messages we still need to be able to send/receive them. A *better* way to approach the situation is to be able to do something new and cool that other phones can't and then use that as a selling point for the OpenMoko/Neo. Really guys, we're trying to rethink lots of things with OpenMoko. I don't want to do the same things just running under FOSS. We'd be missing out on a huge invitation to innovate both as a company and a community. Why not use the flexibility and rethink how we want these devices to work -- as end users -- not just for geeks but for everyone? I'm not saying we'll get things right the first time. Just that we're going to try our best ;-) _This_ opportunity is what makes me excited about OpenMoko. Not (simply) the fact that it's FOSS based. True, but lets not get carried away either. FOSS doesn't make good software by default. A good user community behind the platform has a chance at making good hardware/software. But it is going to take time and a lot of effort to make great software, and Sean is right that we may not get it right the first time around... What I mean by not getting carried away is. I don't think that there will be many situations where you can walk into a room full of people all using the Neo's and...[insert cool idea]. There were over a billion mobile phones shipped out in 2006, and there will be many more in 2007. So even if we get a million of these devices in people's hands we are still at less than 1 percent market penetration. So, we can't create a self contained community that only looks to our selves for ideas. We *must* be able to easily/effectively communicate with those other %99+ of devices out there...even if they are inferior. Example: video calling could be sweet, but if you can't talk to anyone, then whats the point? All that to say, we've got to innovate within our realm, but we must also be conscious of how things are done outside of the project as well. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
Now, that doesn't mean that I am a representation of the *average* user... I promise you, you're not. A _person_ is intelligent; _people_ are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.--Tommy Lee Jones as K in _Men in Black_ We *must* be able to easily/effectively communicate with those other %99+ of devices out there...even if they are inferior. Indeed. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Please no crossposting! Re: Information regarding theMessaging Support in OpenMoko
On Wed, 2007-01-31 at 22:48 -0700, Richi Plana wrote: I, personally, do not use MMS. I'm not even sure if that service is available here in Calgary, AB with the carriers here. I've had a dinky, free phone since the start waiting for the right phone (this one) to come along. However, we should also keep in mind that which the majority of phones out there support, and right now (at least in Europe according to the research mentioned above), it seems to be MMS. I remember when I first got SMS on my phone way back in the day. No one seemed to care. But several years later, it actually made the news when some networks announced inter-network interoperability in the MMS arena, after it became rather obvious that people like shooting grainy, low-resolution camera phone pics and instantly sending them to their friends. Personally, I would rather use MMS for its ability to send up to 1000 characters per message, rather than the paltry 160 of SMS (And my network charges me per-message, not per-byte for either). Maybe I just write too much, but sometimes my phone breaks up a message into 3 (or more) SMS messages and it gets really aggravating if it coughs in the middle and fails to send because something went wrong with part 2 or 3. One approach we could use is to have the application layer (the GUI as seen by the user) designed right, and the underlying protocol would be the one to differ. So a user can compose some multimedia message and it could be sent out as MMS (possibly with a loss of formatting due to constraints in MMS). This would be a smart way to get users used to our application frontend so that when we switch to that better infrastructure you're dreaming of, it would make no difference to the users. They'll just notice that things have just gotten better. Once the current MMS users who've bought into OpenMoko have had a taste of what we can offer, they wouldn't want to go back. But we have to hook them in the first place. That was basically my thought as well. I would like to see is an integrated Messaging application that is capable of integrating all available messaging back-ends in one place and lets the user (Or the content or recipient address if it comes to that) decide the method to send the message. I believe some other phones do something like this already. But then again, I would also like to be able to store messaging preferences in the Contacts list, so I can do things like send specially-encoded messages to other MoKo owners (with things like formatting, encryption, etc) and send regular SMS or MMS messages to those unfortunate souls who have not yet joined us. -KW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
