Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-14 Thread Sander van Grieken
On Friday 13 June 2008 21:22:12 Ben Burdette wrote:

 What would be cool would be a QVGA-to-VGA transition effect where a
 'blurry' QVGA app comes into focus as you transition to VGA mode.  So
 suppose you are in an application selection screen, you select an
 application and it 'zooms' to the app window - in QVGA mode.  But the
 app you selected is marked as a VGA app, so after the zooming happens,
 there is a fade from the QVGA appearance of the app (actually drawn in
 VGA now) to the VGA appearance.

Interesting proposal..

Might not be possible due to artifacts or noise when switching between the two 
modes, but it would be a leet hack :)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread Chris Wright
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:40:08 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:


 On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have
  suggested, is
  really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web
  pages are
  designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into
  2.8 is nigh
  madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor
  (imho) :)

 I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I
 mean, eccentric.

 I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I
 do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

 never said otherwise but the screen is physically small. very. put it at a
 normal usage distance and it covers a small fraction of the field of view a
 standard desktop screen does. web pages are normally designed for the field of
 view of a desktop screen. either you play zooming games to squeeze it down, or
 scrolling, or play re-formatting games. however you look at it - you won't get
 close to the same experience.

True...someone mentioned a month view for a calendar with a meaningful
amount of content as a use case for a higher resolution screen, but on
a three-inch display, you're not getting any significant amount of
data across without a magnifying glass.

Using a terminal emulator would be far more pleasant with the higher
resolution screen, but you're not going to get an 80x25 window in
there; with a 640x480 display plus an on-screen keyboard, you're going
to have either an 80x30 or so window in portrait mode and an
unreadable font, or you're going to get about 80x15 in landscape.

Video's going to scale anyway (which says more about processor / gpu
issues than about acceptable quality). Really, viewing photos is the
only thing that will suffer significantly. This isn't as much of an
issue since the Freerunner doesn't have a camera. But the GTA04
probably will, and the QVGA might be somewhat annoying.

Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and
processor, and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to
encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones. I have a phone
from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to
deal with much less than that.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread enaut


 True...someone mentioned a month view for a calendar with a meaningful
 amount of content as a use case for a higher resolution screen, but on
 a three-inch display, you're not getting any significant amount of
 data across without a magnifying glass.
I'm feeling reminded of those creditcard sized poket calendars we have
in germany. on those you have got the calendar information of a whole
year + the Information of hollidays and other special days. land
everything is readable and pretty clear to read. so the size is not the
problem. but rather the resollution as well as the clearness of the display.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread Chris Wright
2008/6/13 enaut [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 I'm feeling reminded of those creditcard sized poket calendars we have
 in germany. on those you have got the calendar information of a whole
 year + the Information of hollidays and other special days. land
 everything is readable and pretty clear to read. so the size is not the
 problem. but rather the resollution as well as the clearness of the display.

Those include no more text than numbers for the date. Which you can do
with qvga as well, I am certain, if it's one month. And you can also
include colors to indicate there's an event on that day, or it's a
holiday, or whatnot -- none of which requires a larger display.

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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread Ken Young
Chris Write wrote:

 Using a terminal emulator would be far more pleasant with the higher
 resolution screen, but you're not going to get an 80x25 window in
 there; with a 640x480 display plus an on-screen keyboard, you're going
 to have either an 80x30 or so window in portrait mode and an
 unreadable font, or you're going to get about 80x15 in landscape.

This is not correct.   The pssh application for a Palm Treo can
produce a 80x25 terminal emulator with a full on-screen keyboard.
It is hard to read, but definately usable.   I use it daily (although
almost always without the on-screen keyboard - then you get 80x47).
The Treo's screen is only 320x320, so the Freerunner should be able to
produce a 80x25 portrait window with on-screen keyboard and a fairly
nice font.

To those who argue that the ~150 DPI resolution one would get with
QVGA on the '03 is nearly indistiguishable from the VGA resolution
on a 2.8 screen I ask:   When was the last time you saw a 150 DPI
laser printer?   Why are they so hard to find?

Ken Young



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread Ben Burdette
What hasn't been entirely clear to me in this discussion is whether, 
with the current VGA screen, we are able to enter a QVGA mode and run as 
quickly as with a true QVGA screen.

If that is the case, then why not use the QVGA for some things, like 
application selection, the phone dialer, or games, and then use VGA for 
things like terminals, email, web browsing?  It would require a seamless 
transition on a per-application basis.  Perhaps you could specify 
whether a given app runs in VGA or QVGA on a configuration screen 
someplace.  You get the benefit here of apps being QVGA-ready for a time 
when openmoko is installed on a QGA-only phone. 

One complication would arise with applications that require different 
modes sharing the same screen.  If our interface is purely one app at a 
time using the whole screen, then its not really a problem. 

Another difficulty would be transitioning between modes in a seamless 
way.  If there are compute intensive effects present in QVGA mode, then 
those would have to be deactivated in VGA, then reactivated on the way 
back.  There may be significant technical barriers to this approach, 
don't know. 

Also, transitioning between flashy QVGA and stolid VGA might be kind of 
jarring to the user.  Maybe QVGA would be the default, and users that 
want to make the tradeoff can go in and reconfigure.  Certain apps might 
be VGA by default, like a photo viewer. 

What would be cool would be a QVGA-to-VGA transition effect where a 
'blurry' QVGA app comes into focus as you transition to VGA mode.  So 
suppose you are in an application selection screen, you select an 
application and it 'zooms' to the app window - in QVGA mode.  But the 
app you selected is marked as a VGA app, so after the zooming happens, 
there is a fade from the QVGA appearance of the app (actually drawn in 
VGA now) to the VGA appearance. 



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am Fr  13. Juni 2008 schrieb Chris Wright:
 Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and
 processor,

One last time:
...OR USING VGA IN QVGA MODE WITH SAME PROCESSOR, AND SWITCH TO VGA WHENEVER 
YOU NEED THIS RESOLUTION.

It's all about nothing else than just saving some 5 bucks on the screen (which 
probably will not apply whenever this comes to reality, because you have to 
buy QVGA-screens from antiquities collectors then), and the allegedly 
*better* (huh?) quality of QVGA when compared to a VGA in QVGA-mode. All of 
this are moot arguments!!!

 and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to 
 encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones.
And WTF is the rationale behind this??? You're suggesting we should use slower 
cpu for saving battery or what? Yeah our GTA04 will probably have 8bit cpu 
and a 7-segment display, but no screen at all, and 4000h of standby time. 
(btw: standby isn't related to cpu-power-consumption at all)

 I have a phone 
 from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to
 deal with much less than that.

Don't ask what I'm annoyed of!
Aaahrg, really sorry, but [ignore thread] now (last one of hw-dev leaving 
pointless discussion).
/j


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-13 Thread David Samblas Martinez
+1 to Joerg, but don't worry a lot of this speculation garbage about Freerunner 
or succesors capabilities and what have to do and what not will die onces the 
freerunner is aviable and used by a miriad of volunters.

Maybe will be another kind of speculation garbage but not this one :).

The idea of a 7 segment liquid cristal screen as an  usb lcd can be take in 
count for very critical battery applications that only need the hardware 
capabilites and some light feedback.

 
--- El vie, 13/6/08, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
 Para: community@lists.openmoko.org
 CC: Chris Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Fecha: viernes, 13 junio, 2008 9:52
 Am Fr  13. Juni 2008 schrieb Chris Wright:
  Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with
 a faster GPU and
  processor,
 
 One last time:
 ...OR USING VGA IN QVGA MODE WITH SAME PROCESSOR, AND
 SWITCH TO VGA WHENEVER 
 YOU NEED THIS RESOLUTION.
 
 It's all about nothing else than just saving some 5
 bucks on the screen (which 
 probably will not apply whenever this comes to reality,
 because you have to 
 buy QVGA-screens from antiquities collectors then), and the
 allegedly 
 *better* (huh?) quality of QVGA when compared to a VGA in
 QVGA-mode. All of 
 this are moot arguments!!!
 
  and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm
 inclined to 
  encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones.
 And WTF is the rationale behind this??? You're
 suggesting we should use slower 
 cpu for saving battery or what? Yeah our GTA04 will
 probably have 8bit cpu 
 and a 7-segment display, but no screen at all, and 4000h of
 standby time. 
 (btw: standby isn't related to cpu-power-consumption at
 all)
 
  I have a phone 
  from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it
 annoys me to
  deal with much less than that.
 
 Don't ask what I'm annoyed of!
 Aaahrg, really sorry, but [ignore thread] now (last one of
 hw-dev leaving 
 pointless discussion).
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread W.Kenworthy
Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03?

i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters


BillK



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:21:25 +0800 W.Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Is there an 'official' designation of the target market for the GTA03?
 
 i.e., freerunner is geeks/early adopters

don't know. there is only right now what the state of gta03 currently is in
terms of what the hardware side is working on for drivers and devices etc. like
anything, it can be subject to change.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
 see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.

 can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html

 see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.


I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing
decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If
the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy
it.

I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new
because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person
who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current
bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would 
 be
 utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is 
 the
 only way up into the future.


So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

 ouch. poor cpu.


Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
hardware.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:38:59 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
  see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.
 
  can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:
 
  http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html
 
  see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
 
 
 I guess it's not that bad. It's not bad enough to affect a purchasing
 decision alone so long as I only have to see it in the terminal. If
 the whole phone interface will be in that font, then I wouldn't buy
 it.
 
 I did not buy the otherwise wonderful Siemans M55 when it was new
 because of its terrible font. But then again, I'm the kind of person
 who has closed a bank account and switched banks because my current
 bank was blocking Firefox access to online banking.

hahah! no - that'd be nasty used everywhere, but for a terminal, when you need
it, it's a good way to get 80x24 on qvga (landscape). of course its not
beautiful :)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens
  would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga
  (800x480) is the only way up into the future.
 

 So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
 have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
 that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

 i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make
 compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for
 you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller
 phone?

No, I am not saying VGA or nothing. But you post looked to me like you
are worried about how to upgrade in the future, and that upgrading
would be easier for the manufacturer if the current hardware is less.
If that is not what you are saying, then you can disregard my
misunderstanding :)

  ouch. poor cpu.
 

 Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
 CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
 times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
 device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
 will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
 is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
 hardware.

 right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being
 open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics
 system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work
 and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the
 vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to 
 bring
 things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but
 that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or
 indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :)


I see. Thanks. I appreciate that the development of these devices is
much more complicated than it looks from here. Which is why I ask.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:48:10 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/11 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens
  would be utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga
  (800x480) is the only way up into the future.
 
 
 So you argue to put a lesser screen on the device now, so that you can
 have a lesser upgrade in the future? That is not the type of company
 that I want to deal with. Give us what is possible now, now.

i didn't say that. you have to remember not everything is possible. we make
compromises all the time. but you are saving that the only options we have for
you to be happy is vga or higher. no matter what. even if we make a smaller
phone? some people want big phones, some want small. we might have multiple
products and you choose the one that is best for you. some may go for the
smaller device that weight less, uses less pocket space and has a low-res small
screen, some may go for one that is the size of an n800 with a massive high-res
screen. these phones are not necessarily a linear progression from 1st to 2nd
to 3rd version. some may be, some may not be.

  ouch. poor cpu.
 
 
 Other than price, what are the constraints about using a more powerful
 CPU? And what is the price hit? If we are talking about having four
 times the screen resolution for an additional 30% of the price of the
 device, then I say that is worth it. The target market for this phone
 will buy it almost regardless of price. That is not to say that price
 is not important (it is) but it should be more flexible than the
 hardware.

right now - constraints vary from soc's we can actually buy in volume to being
open (eg nvidia have an soc... do we want that along with the closed graphics
system?), to just development time. a new soc means a whole lot of kernel work
and driver work normally - unless we stick to the kernel provided by the
vendor, and that means you have a kernel behind many versions. we want to bring
things to market as soon as we can. i'd love to see us improve our soc, but
that just takes time and development. that's no promises one way or another or
indications on whats going on - it's just where things are right now. :)

-- 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Jamie Allsop
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).

 Stroller.
 

 it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a sudden
 here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life i
 never see them... :)

   

Ok, time to clear up an obvious and totally incorrect assumption, higher 
resolution does not mean small fonts that are hard to read. It means 
that you have clearer, sharper fonts at the dpi you find comfortable 
reading at. In other words a VGA screen is just better, better for 
people with good eyesight and _much_ better for people with poor 
eyesight. I'd always go for a higher resolution every time.

Now some of you people out there may run windows on your desktop and 
only being able to reasonably change dpi between two settings (maybe 
this is different in Vista) means that a high resolution often does mean 
small fonts on the screen, some can't go to 120 dpi because maybe the 
apps they use don't support (yes that used to be quite common). On Linux 
this is not a problem as dpi is entirely variable and changing it 
doesn't break applications.  In that case the dpi is a simple personal 
preference and on higher res screens everything is sharper and easier to 
to read, reducing eye strain and so on.

For a small device where we will be trying to read things that are 
already small due to physical screen size a high res is a must to make 
that as comfortable as possible. VGA  will produce a much better user 
experience than QVGA and be a lot easier on everyone's eyes.

To summarise we have 3 orthogonal concerns:

1. Screen dimensions - fixed by manufacturer, relates to device target users
2. Screen resolution - fixed by manufacturer, higher is better for all 
tasks that require screen reading, for movies it really doesn't matter 
so much
3. DPI - user specified to reach a compromise between readability and 
effective use of screen real estate.

Any, that's my take on things, I vote VGA ;-)

Jamie



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Hugo Mills
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

   So how do we go about persuading _those_ people that such
high-effort, low-return UI designs are a bad thing? Who should be in
this particular conversation, so that we don't put you in the position
of fending off people on both sides?

   (When I speak of low return, I mean low return in terms of
usability -- you don't make user interfaces more usable by adding more
transparency, more rounded corners, and drop shadows, particularly on
restricted-size interfaces.)

   Hugo.

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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Ken Young
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve
UI enhancements, are unimportant.   On a handheld device they *are*
important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist
the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU
cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats
some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of
useful work which can be done between recharges.

Ken Young


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Ortwin Regel
Who are these weird people that think window transparency on an
underpowered phone is a good idea?! What functionality does THAT give
us? I'd like to see some justification, if not from you then from
whoever is responsible for these ideas. I've lived without window
transparancy on all my PCs and handhelds up to now. I've seen it on my
brother's Vista PC and it was kind of funny for all of five minutes.

Ortwin

On 6/11/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:

 Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
   0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  
   we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high
 resolutions
   means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
  
   Curious, why is that ?
 
  graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in
  terms of
  processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me
  -
  everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already)
  the

 No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my
 desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of
 time
 to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency
 is
 the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about
 this
 is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being
 shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the
 short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to
 make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.
 not just say i don't care.

 Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance.
 GTA03 has VGA - period!

 things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times
 already.

 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now,
 not
 to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.

 And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw
 seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
 ETX
 jOERG



 --
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-11 Thread Lally Singh
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha
 transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day,
 your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am
 not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE
 it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being
 faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make
 something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long
 time.  not just say i don't care.

 The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve
 UI enhancements, are unimportant.   On a handheld device they *are*
 important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist
 the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU
 cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats
 some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of
 useful work which can be done between recharges.

I disagree with such categorical statements.  There is a trade-off
between usability and performance (e.g. user performance and device
performance).  The optimal value is in between, dependent on both user
and system capabilities.  The iPhone is success *because* of its heavy
bias for user performance over system performance.  The hardware isn't
novel, but the UI is, and it makes all the difference.

Example: Shadows on windows on Mac OS X --- the shadows indicate,
better than any titlebar hilight ever will, what window has focus.
Using the brain's innate understanding of depth provides user-side
hardware acceleration for this activity.

Example: Desktop switcher animation --- when switching virtual
desktops, having the windows slide off to the appropriate side is
critical for building a spatial model in the user's mind.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars/2

Geeks will probably want a different set of trade-offs between
usability  performance, but those are best done as customizations on
an expert platform.  One that we hope that OM will become.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
 
 We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the
 next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so
 the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting
 a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better
 option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision.

i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much more. right now the only
thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc. just different gsm
subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case, added camera.

don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as long as i have been able to.
i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have insisted on laptops
with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny fonts and high dpi
screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have noticed a tendency to be
the only one in the room who can read it.

i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was playing with a phone
last week with one on it. but practical factors may just not allow it. if you
wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at a good price, then
go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just can't happen. same
with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to get gfx support to run
such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you won't get the best of
components in every possible way due to the nature of what is being done here.
we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to be made.

what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can
see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the
difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible,
impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people
saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience
over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many
people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised.

 On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
  
  not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is
  vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to
  go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't
  change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we
  may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something
  will be a lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice
  there below vga.
  
   How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version 
   with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain 
   there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels.
   
   Regards
   Peter Kraker
   
   Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
   
  
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
   

we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
given. too
bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
trying to
dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just
want higher
specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
scenarios that
make real sense. :)

This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
potential customer who says
I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
several here on this list,
if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
  
no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management
to do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast).
they come first. you users come second. in the end if product
management want X they get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then
so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very very strong argument
against going to qvga - and that means product management need to drop
a feature. 
   
note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a
product management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks
pretty. i am looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop
being possible
   
i know:
   
1. u may need to scroll more
2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need
to be zoomed out and have less display fidelity
3. some things requiring text displays like 

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
  i've fairly amazed at the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my  
 experience over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i  
 didn't know how many people really could see the difference AND make use  
 of it. i'm surprised.


well, i think there's a relation between the screensize the neo offers and  
the people interested to buy.
means: if those people, count me in, look for a smartphone/pda they look  
for big resolution to show tiny details and put as much information as  
possible on the screen.
i use a treo650 for years now and a 270 before and am always annoyed by  
the lack of resolution forcing me to use rather big fonts because no small  
fonts exist (the would be nothing but a blur).

so, what i say is, people with that good eyesight may be a small part of  
the crowd, but the crowd around the openmoko (especially if the like open  
and free ;-).

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread David Samblas Martinez
Hi Carsten

I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.

You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long 
thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution 
question only) 

I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as 
you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the 
perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this decision 
is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will 
change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it 
well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more 
res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff and other 
more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more 
for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can 
coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

 
But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko 
decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), 

--- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
 Para: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
 CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43
 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
  I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
  
  We should be going forward with specs, not backward.
 By the time the
  next revisions come there'll be a whole new
 generation of hardware so
  the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone
 mentioned getting
  a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that
 that's a much better
  option. But it sounds like you've already made the
 decision.
 
 i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much
 more. right now the only
 thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc.
 just different gsm
 subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
 added camera.
 
 don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as
 long as i have been able to.
 i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have
 insisted on laptops
 with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny
 fonts and high dpi
 screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have
 noticed a tendency to be
 the only one in the room who can read it.
 
 i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was
 playing with a phone
 last week with one on it. but practical factors may just
 not allow it. if you
 wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at
 a good price, then
 go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just
 can't happen. same
 with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to
 get gfx support to run
 such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers.
 and that is not
 somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you
 won't get the best of
 components in every possible way due to the nature of what
 is being done here.
 we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to
 be made.
 
 what people have been saying here is that they have
 excellent eyesight and can
 see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of
 it. like really see the
 difference and be able to do things with that res that
 would be not possible,
 impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at
 the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast
 to my experience
 over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i
 didn't know how many
 people really could see the difference AND make use of it.
 i'm surprised.
 
  On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler
 wrote:
   On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   babbled:
   
   not going to happen - that's 2 product runs.
 expensive to maintain. gta03 is
   vga right now - unless there is a very big push
 to qvga. it is possible to
   go, and not hard at all. it would save costs on
 hardware, but it won't
   change at this stage. but beyond gta03 it's
 an open book and who knows - we
   may likely pull out a lower res screen. it is in
 fact very likely something
   will be a lower res in later products as there is
 just so much more choice
   there below vga.
   
How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with
 QVGA and GTA03V version 
with VGA screen, if those two are indeed
 very similar ? I'm certain 
there are enough of us geeks ready to give
 up some glitter for pixels.

Regards
Peter Kraker

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
 On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Wilkinson, Alex
0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 

we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions
means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not

Curious, why is that ?

 -aW

IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Hi Carsten
 
 I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.
 
 You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long
 thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution
 question only) 
 
 I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as
 you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much
 the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this
 decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I
 will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing
 view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera
 and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff
 and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so
 clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while
 booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is
unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to
know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day
many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not
unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of
necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
- qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at
that size). it all depends on many factors.

i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the physical
size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most people
is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance.

maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal
- the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and
take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than that
it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :)

 But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
 I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko
 decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), 
 
 --- El mar, 10/6/08, Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
 
  De: Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Asunto: Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU
  combos!) Para: List for Openmoko community discussion
  community@lists.openmoko.org CC: Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Fecha: martes, 10 junio, 2008 7:43
  On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:43:22 -0700 Dave O'Connor
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
   I said this in the channel but you weren't there.
   
   We should be going forward with specs, not backward.
  By the time the
   next revisions come there'll be a whole new
  generation of hardware so
   the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone
  mentioned getting
   a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that
  that's a much better
   option. But it sounds like you've already made the
  decision.
  
  i'd love a better cpu - better memory bus and much
  more. right now the only
  thing we have is gta03 - same cpu as freerunner etc etc.
  just different gsm
  subsystem (2g/edge) and no glamo (dumb 2442 fb), new case,
  added camera.
  
  don't get me wrong - i've been running high res as
  long as i have been able to.
  i went to 1600x1200 as soon as mu hardware could. i have
  insisted on laptops
  with 1600x1200 or higher - 1920x1200 ones too. i use tiny
  fonts and high dpi
  screens. i personally love high resolution, but i have
  noticed a tendency to be
  the only one in the room who can read it.
  
  i'd love an 800x480 300dpi screen - they exist. i was
  playing with a phone
  last week with one on it. but practical factors may just
  not allow it. if you
  wish to find a reliable supplier for us of such hardware at
  a good price, then
  go for it, but practical product concerns may mean it just
  can't happen. same
  with cpu speeds and graphics. we are in a world where to
  get gfx support to run
  such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers.
  and that is not
  somewhere where we are going. we make compromises. you
  won't get the best of
  components in every possible way due to the nature of what
  is being done here.
  we try where we can, but somewhere compromises will need to
  be made.
  
  what people have been saying here is that they have
  excellent eyesight and can
  see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of
  it. like really see the
  difference and be able to do things with that res that
  would be not possible,
  impractical or painful

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja



 as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
 easily,
 but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
 pixel
 count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.

 --
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Hi Carsten,

There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
remember which one it was?

Rakshat

PS

but i am being shown designs
wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that
snazz.

Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo?
-- 
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also a very feature rich browser.
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font 
  -
  possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.

 have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but
 definitely functional.


No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Lally Singh
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:44 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 Hi Carsten

 I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason.

 You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long
 thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution
 question only)

 I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as
 you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much
 the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as  this
 decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I
 will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing
 view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera
 and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny  stuff
 and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so
 clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while
 booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty.

 it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is
 unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to
 know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day
 many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not
 unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of
 necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
 - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at
 that size). it all depends on many factors.

 i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the 
 physical
 size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most 
 people
 is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance.

 maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal
 - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and
 take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
 enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than 
 that
 it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :)

 But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02,
 I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko
 decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance),

Let's be honest with ourselves.  The regular joe's going to buy
iPhones (or, *shudder* RAZRs) for quite some time.  You can't just
walk into Verizon to buy it, the software for the device isn't
finished, and it costs twice as much as an iPhone.  It's going to be a
geek phone for some time.

GTA04(5,6?) may be interesting to consumers, but that's a ways off.
In the mean time, ignoring the current primary demographic -- geeks --
will kill off the phone before it has a chance to become usable for
the demographic you want: consumers.


-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:

 %

 #
  #
  #
 #
  #


 S

  ##
 #
  #
  #
 ##

 s


  ##
 ##
  ##
 ##

 $
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
 @
  ##
 # #
 ###
 ###
 ###
 #
  ##
 #
 # #
 # #
 ###
 # #
 ###
 # #
 # #
 o


  #
 # #
 # #
  #



I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 what people have been saying here is that they have excellent eyesight and can
 see a tin 2.8 vga screen well enough to make use of it. like really see the
 difference and be able to do things with that res that would be not possible,
 impractical or painful otherwise. i've fairly amazed at the number of people
 saying their eyesight is so good as it is in stark contrast to my experience
 over the years, but ok - i'll take it for what it is. i didn't know how many
 people really could see the difference AND make use of it. i'm surprised.


I personally _don't_ have that great eyesight, yet I find the
difference between my VGA x50v and the QGVA x50 so substantial that I
would not even consider buying the QVGA machine even if it were the
only option. I'm nearsighted, though, and farsighted people may have
different experience.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread arne anka
 eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner
 - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available  
 at that size

well, less physical size is a very plausible rationale for qvga (or hvga)  
-- but, as i understand, we are talking about the size of the actual neo,  
right?

 maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24  
 terminal
 - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's  
 and
 take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than
 enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses.

is that average joe the target group (is this the word?) of openmoko?
isn't the target user someone who pushes the limits of things possible? i  
for one will use the freerunner as some kind of full featured computer in  
my pocket, being able to do almost everything my laptop does.
i am unsure whether openmoko will be able to compete with apple or htc in  
terms of appealing to average joe -- i think openmokos share of the market  
are users/organisations/companies looking for an open, easy expandable  
(software side) phone with no small bounds (as a little screen would be).

average joe who will not buy an iphone but looks for something similar  
will be targeted by htc's armada of devices and even blackberry, which are  
avalibale through the carriers' shops. how big are the chances om will be  
available by vodaphone, t-mobile, you name it?

 other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels  
 than yours :)

well, i know nobody who does and if i would do bragg  i do not know  
somebody who would listen ;-)
what i would bragg about is my phone is open! i could do all programming  
and more -- no need for iTunes or [carrier/platform dependend strait  
jacket] -- an people bragging about that .. well, that's surely the  
people you expect to buy the freerunner?

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 
 
 
  as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
  easily,
  but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
  pixel
  count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.
 
  --
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Hi Carsten,
 
 There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
 lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
 remember which one it was?

3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny bit
longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
but in a much smaller space.

 Rakshat
 
 PS
 
 but i am being shown designs
 wanted that REQUIRE compositing - REQUIRE alpha blending and all that
 snazz.
 
 Can compositing and alpha bending be done at QVGA by the glamo?
 -- 
 --
 Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is
 also a very feature rich browser.
 www.firefox.com
 


-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
 
  %
 
  #
   #
   #
  #
   #
 
 
  S
 
   ##
  #
   #
   #
  ##
 
  s
 
 
   ##
  ##
   ##
  ##
 
  $
   #
   ##
  ##
   #
   ##
  ##
   #
  @
   ##
  # #
  ###
  ###
  ###
  #
   ##
  #
  # #
  # #
  ###
  # #
  ###
  # #
  # #
  o
 
 
   #
  # #
  # #
   #
 
 
 
 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif

 Dotan Cohen
 
 http://what-is-what.com
 http://gibberish.co.il
 א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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-- 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread rakshat hooja
 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny
 bit
 longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
 smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP
 screen,
 but in a much smaller space.

 http://www.firefox.com


Good enough for me if this gives faster performance  :-). Need to check for
visibility in light and if that is better that the current VGA I vote for
this for the GTA04.

Rakshat
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Stroller

On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have  
 suggested, is
 really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web  
 pages are
 designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into  
 2.8 is nigh
 madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor  
 (imho) :)

I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I  
mean, eccentric.

I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I  
do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for  
poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway -  
viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful  
(maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a  
design consideration.

And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in  
this? Well, c'mon!

True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their  
mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got  
for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone  
because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is  
important this week.

People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install  
applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of  
people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some  
piece of information and away from home.

Stroller.


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread robert lazarski
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
 

 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif


That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the
ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
my eyesight is relatively good .

Robert

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Piotr Duda

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pisze:
[...]

 
 maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin
 to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think.
 the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions.


well, as for now I have only 15 minutes experience with QVGA, and I have
already get used to my beautiful gta01 screen, so the result of this quick
comparison is very easy to predict...

I have a question for people who are digital photography enthusiasts
(personally I prefer old/traditional/dying photography so I can not tell
myself)...
The neo screen, has almost 300dpi and AFAIK most photolabs are printing
photos in 300dpi. Could it be useful for you guys, for some kind of preview?
One can scale the photo to some target size and check some, most interesting
parts of this photo on neo screen as it would be almost as good as on
resulting print. I think one can see that this part is not sharp enough and
this detail is not big enough and so on... Is it realistic use case or am
I only in love with this resolution and desperately looking for arguments :)

I think most digital cameras have no such good resolutions on their LCDs
(but again, Im not up to date) with the exception of course of some very
high-end SLR cameras. With some big SD cart, neo could be even used as
some lifesaving photobank (I know - usb1.1, but if qvga _can_ be usable
with tiny font, the same aplies here ;D )...


Piotr

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Dave O'Connor

I'm with Robert on this one. Took me a while to parse many of the 
characters on that image.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, robert lazarski wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:


 I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
 xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
 getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif


 That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
 anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
 be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the
 ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
 my eyesight is relatively good .

 Robert

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [...]
   an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
   scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide 
   font -
   possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
 
  How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
  5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
  take more space than others.

 you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference
 (though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho
 you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a
 3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a
 terminal.

Well, 'æ' can be converted to 'ae' :)

 nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:

 %

 #
  #
  #
 #
  #


 S

  ##
 #
  #
  #
 ##

 s


  ##
 ##
  ##
 ##

 $
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
  ##
 ##
  #
 @
  ##
 # #
 ###
 ###
 ###
 #
  ##
 #
 # #
 # #
 ###
 # #
 ###
 # #
 # #
 o


  #
 # #
 # #
  #

Thanks:)

I tried to zoom this down (font size 4) and it was not that bad. But I
think this needs a little getting used to.

Anyway, I am not against QVGA as long as this can increase the
battery time and decrease the phone size over time (to something
no bigger than a credit card:).

So everyone has their own idea of how it should be. This is good,
but not every wishes can come true. But please have a look at
the neonode [1]. It runs windows mobile. It is terrible as it suffers
with a lot of bugs, but looks cool on the video.
It has a 2,0 LCD @ 176x220 pixels.

[1] http://www.neonode.com/en-us/products/n2/introduction/watch-the-video/
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:01:03 +0530 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 babbled:

  
  
  
   as i have said before - gta03 is vga - as it stands, but can go to qvga
   easily,
   but is unlikely to. in the future who knows. it'd be a tradeoff of screen
   pixel
   count vs processor speed vs any graphics acceleration we can get - if any.
  
   --
   Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   Hi Carsten,
 
  There was a WQVGA screen you once mentioned on the IRC and said you liked a
  lot for the GTA04 screen. I can't remember the specs right now but do you
  remember which one it was?

 3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny 
 bit
 longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
 smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
 but in a much smaller space.
Nice! So the phones will be smaller:)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On 6/10/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:53:49 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide
font - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
  
   That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
   will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
   4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
   lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
   myself to get by with.
  
   have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful -
   but definitely functional.
  
 
  No, I haven't. Could you post a screenshot of how it looks? Maybe if I
  see it I can be convinced, I'm at least that open minded.

 can't as i did it years ago on my ipaq. but it's the same font as here:

 http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html

 see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not
that bad:) I could read it without any problems.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
  0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 
  
  we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high 
resolutions
  means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
  
  Curious, why is that ?
 
 graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of
 processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me -
 everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the

No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. 
I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to 
see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. 
GTA03 has VGA - period! 
04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to 
mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.

And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems 
nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
ETX
jOERG


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:00:54 -0300 robert lazarski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:57:36 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
 
  2008/6/10 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:
  
 
  I understand. I would still like to see a screenshot of fstab or
  xorg.conf open in vim with such a font on qvga screen. I don't mind
  getting used to some displeasures, however others I avoid if possible.
 
  http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/images/fonts/atari-small-samp.gif
 
 
 That's painful for this reader. I couldn't write or read code - or
 anything really - in that font for more than a few seconds. IMHO, It'd
 be kind of ironic that a totally hackable phone wouldn't have the
 ability to read or write text. FYI, I did lasik corrective surgery so
 my eyesight is relatively good .

hold it so that it covers the same visual field the 2.8 on the freerunner
would. it's easier to read. :) i do agree - it's not great for code - but for
normal shell usage it's adequate for editing said files which don't use
punctuation and other symbol chars much. :)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:07:40 +0200 Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 Am Di  10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
  On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
   0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 
   
   we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high 
 resolutions
   means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not
   
   Curious, why is that ?
  
  graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of
  processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me -
  everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the
 
 No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my
 desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time
 to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless.

the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is
the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this
is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being
shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the
short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to
make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time.
not just say i don't care.

 Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. 
 GTA03 has VGA - period!

things can change - unlikely to be, but can. i have said it many times already.

 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not
 to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real.
 
 And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw
 seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/
 ETX
 jOERG
 


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:40:08 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 
 On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have  
  suggested, is
  really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web  
  pages are
  designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into  
  2.8 is nigh
  madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor  
  (imho) :)
 
 I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I  
 mean, eccentric.
 
 I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I  
 do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

never said otherwise but the screen is physically small. very. put it at a
normal usage distance and it covers a small fraction of the field of view a
standard desktop screen does. web pages are normally designed for the field of
view of a desktop screen. either you play zooming games to squeeze it down, or
scrolling, or play re-formatting games. however you look at it - you won't get
close to the same experience.

of course web pages designed for small screens... that's another matter! :)

 I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for  
 poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway -  
 viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful  
 (maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a  
 design consideration.
 
 And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in  
 this? Well, c'mon!

it makes a difference - but not as much of one as you want to think when using
it normally. (normal distance from your eyes, etc.). you end up needing larger
fonts to be able to read it (unless you have spectacular vision) and so the
amount of content it fits is fairly low...

that's my main point. yes - the screen is nice. but it is physically small.
after months and months of being at it - running apps on it, making stuff work
- and work for fingers, font sizes just go up and up. any form of
gadget/control is just big so it can be hit with a finger (yes - we are going
for finger control. nothing new. the device wasn't designed for a stylus - no
place to hold one), so in the end - vga vs qvga is much less of a content issue
when you hit this point and more of a quality issue.

as i said before - maybe it just needs people to get them in hand and use it
for a while.

 True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their  
 mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got  
 for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone  
 because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is  
 important this week.
 
 People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install  
 applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of  
 people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some  
 piece of information and away from home.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:51:03 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:


  http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/Tech/x11fonts.html
 
  see the 4x8 font at the top. bdf downloadable and usable.
 Wow! That is amazing! Now I am 100% convinced that QVGA is not
 that bad:) I could read it without any problems.

cool. as i said. i don't think all the doom and gloom if we had qvga is
warranted. it is still surprisingly good. the physical screen size is much more
of a factor (imho), and if we went to a larger screen at qvga - we'd be in
trouble of a nasty display. 2.8 i think is the limit. most qvga's i've seen at
2.2-2.8. maybe up to 3. but qvga can be usable for an 80x24 terminal. it's
been done before for those who have followed handhelds.org and the early days
of linux on the ipaq, zaurus etc.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-10 Thread The Rasterman
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:44:09 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:


  3 480x272. it's thinner than the current vga 2.8 by a fair bit and a tiny
  bit longer (as it is wide). it seems almost the perfect screen for a
  smaller/slimmer model like gta04/05 etc. same # of pixels as the PSP screen,
  but in a much smaller space.
 Nice! So the phones will be smaller:)

no idea. it is just something i have seen and thought was nice. i also saw a
432x240 3 screen - exact same dimensions. it's used in several japanese
phones. that is what first got me onto the widescreen wqvga trail. but nothing
has been even closely decided there. it's all looking around.

if the vocal group here are to be accounted for going to these screens would be
utterly bad and we should accept nothing less than vga so wvga (800x480) is the
only way up into the future.

ouch. poor cpu.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am  
 talking a case
 where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something  
 just wouldn't
 be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a  
 use case for
 vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.

Examples mentioned before:
* 24x80 console terminal for remote access of a server
* previewing a 300 kPix image (that isn't much resolution!) without  
scrolling/zooming panning
* monthly overview for a calendar where each day shows a reasonably  
useful content
* reading 12pt text (not only seeing that there are lines) of a web  
page designed for =VGA without scrolling

One more observation: TV systems initially started with approx. 300  
lines (QVGA) and rapidly invented
the half-line interlacing system to come to 500-600 lines (more than  
VGA). So, the early TV from the 40ies were
not good enough but the 500-600 lines from the 50ies were good enough  
for 50 years. Now comes HDTV.
The use case was unchanged: viewing broadcast movies.

I think, generally everything *can* be done on a smaller resolution.  
The solutions are:
* scrolling
* flipping between pages
* reducing content

So, I am quite sure you will *not* find *any* application that is  
really *impossible* to use
on QVGA... As said before - you can *use* a Porsche as a vehicle if it  
has at least one
gear level. But would one buy it?

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do
 things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first.
 you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and
 if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very 
 very
 very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management
 need to drop a feature.


Hardware features are almost always better than software features,
especially in open platforms where the software can be modified but
the hardware not easily so.

 i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a 
 case
 where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just 
 wouldn't
 be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for
 vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.


SSH, Month view in calendar, reading books. All stuff that I need an
x50v (VGA screen) to do now.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Monday 09 June 2008 02:56:22 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a
 use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.

Try browsing the web in a QVGA window sometimes, IMHO it's an exercise in 
futility no matter if you try to relayout the site a la Opera or zoom like in 
the S60 browser. 

VGA is not be ideal either, but approaching useable on many sites as you at 
least stand a decent chance of seeing the entire width of the main content 
pane at once.



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
   we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
   given. too
   bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
   trying to
   dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
   higher
   specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
   scenarios that
   make real sense. :)
  
  This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
  potential customer who says
  I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
  several here on this list,
  if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
 
 no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do
 things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first.
 you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and
 if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very
 very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product
 management need to drop a feature.

note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product
management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am
looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible

i know:

1. u may need to scroll more
2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be
zoomed out and have less display fidelity
3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not
readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur
away all character details).

with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:

1. scaling data
2. changing font sizes
3. re-arranging ui elements etc.

no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or
better. it's just a more extreme case.

no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you
still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally
even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga
is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed.

an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a
much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer
pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed
into qvga, i would like to know.

right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact,
but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for
everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one
way or another.
as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and
need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology?
(eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an
absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show
off with?

  BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
  describes a sequence of interactions
  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
  my academic history :)
 
 i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a
 case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just
 wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a
 use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.
 
  Nikolaus
  
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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread arne anka
 with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:

 1. scaling data
 2. changing font sizes
 3. re-arranging ui elements etc.

well, all that is possible even with eight of vga or even less.
i see your point, but, i think there is no use case which fullfills your  
requirements -- as said above, everything is possible with even less  
resolution.
those which use linux a long time and still remember the small screens of   
and the virtual screen X offered

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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Ken Young
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

 i know:

 1. u may need to scroll more
 2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to
 be zoomed out and have less display fidelity
 3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not
 readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut
 blur away all character details).

 with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:

 1. scaling data
 2. changing font sizes
 3. re-arranging ui elements etc.

 no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land
 or better. it's just a more extreme case.

If you are going to demand an example of an application which simply
cannot be run on a QVGA screen, no matter how bad the user experience
would be, then I guess people will have a hard time coming up with one.
The same would be true of a 100 x 100 pixel screen.   You could just
scroll and scroll and scroll some more, and do what you need to do.
You could just demand that everyone re-write their applications to
accomodate a screen that is very small.   We could all switch to reading
text in Braille, whose characters can be displayed in a smaller
cell than the fonts sighted persons usually use.

But the question should not be Can you give me an example of something
which can be done with a VGA screen but which absolutely cannot be done
with a QVGA screen?.   The question should be Are you willing to
give up the benefits of a VGA screen in order to have smooth animation
and fast video on a QVGA screen, and a lower cost?.   It seems to me
that the vast majority of the people who have reponded here have said no,
that's a poor engineering trade off.   In fact, I don't think even one
person has responded that, for them, that trade off would be a good one.

Ken Young


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Ben Burdette
My personal use cases for higher resolution:

- programming on the freerunner.  I've been learning Haskell, I want to 
get ghci or hugs on there and hack around with that.  Also I'm thinking 
about running the glade editor on there, if that's possible.

- using the freerunner as a remote control for amarok.  I want to be 
able to see more than just a couple of songs of my collection.  
Hopefully the web-based amarok control is usable on 640x480.

- GPS mapping.  The more map, the better this is. 

- Calendar.  I've used the palm calendar for a long time, and its just 
not that useful for seeing what's coming up at a high level.  You end up 
having to step through one day at a time to see what events are on there.

- Photo viewer.  Hook up the freerunner to a digital camera and use it 
to view the photos at a higher resolution than the camera screen.  By 
definition pointless unless you have higher resolution than the camera 
viewfinder.

Most of these are not impossible with lower resolution - I used to do 
programming on my palm III which is only 160x160 I think.  However, its 
much nicer on something with more real estate.  Also, having more 
resolution allows us to use more programs that were not designed for 
openmoko without excessive scrolling, like the glade editor.  To me 
these are real reasons to have more resolution, its not just eye candy 
and pointless feature-itis.

Not that QVGA is a bad idea though - I'd like to see a low cost openmoko 
phone at some point, something directed at the low end cellphone market 
perhaps.  If that was the only open phone around, I might even buy one.  
Given the choice though, I'll definitely spring for the high res option. 


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Peter Kraker
How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version 
with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain 
there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels.


Regards
Peter Kraker

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

  

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:


we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
given. too
bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
trying to
dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
higher
specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
scenarios that

make real sense. :)

This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
potential customer who says
I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
several here on this list,

if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
  

no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do
things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first.
you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and
if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very
very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product
management need to drop a feature.



note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product
management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am
looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible

i know:

1. u may need to scroll more
2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be
zoomed out and have less display fidelity
3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not
readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur
away all character details).

with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:

1. scaling data
2. changing font sizes
3. re-arranging ui elements etc.

no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or
better. it's just a more extreme case.

no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480 you
still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll horizontally
even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up looking like. so qvga
is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling needed.

an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a
much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer
pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed
into qvga, i would like to know.

right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much impact,
but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for
everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push one
way or another.
as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, and
need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology?
(eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an
absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to show
off with?

  
BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
describes a sequence of interactions
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
my academic history :)
  

i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a
case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just
wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a
use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.



Nikolaus

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
myself to get by with.

 at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we make a
 much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to have fewer
 pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be somehow crammed
 into qvga, i would like to know.

 right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
 gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much 
 impact,
 but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's fine for
 everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they don't push 
 one
 way or another.
 as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do, 
 and
 need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer technology?
 (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?). is high-res an
 absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a nice to have to 
 show
 off with?

High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a
high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone
does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it.
However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is
fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the
functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be
capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie,
voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on
that most important of interface devices.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Peter J. Holzer
On 2008-06-09 09:09:15 -0400, Ken Young wrote:
 The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a
 VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA
 screen, and a lower cost?.   It seems to me that the vast majority of
 the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor
 engineering trade off.

I don't have an openmoko yet, so I don't know how the display actually
looks or how slow it is. I also don't know what I will use the
freerunner for once I get it. But I image that the majority of uses
involves text (email, news, ssh) which should really be displayed at 80
chars/line. Probably simple graphics, too (e.g., maps). But I don't
think I'll use it to watch videos or play 3d games - so high video
performance isn't a high priority for me.

My gut feeling is that 640x480 at 2.8 is awfully small (I've
printed a screen-shot of an 80x25 windows (with mutt displaying a
message from this list) at that size - I can read it, but I think
reading longer messages at that font size would be a pain). So I think
the direction openmoko should be going in later models (GTA04?) is
towards a larger display with at least the same resolution (maybe
640x480 at 4.2, or maybe a wider display (800x480?))

hp


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|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR   | and it takes a genius to maintain it.
| |   | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | That's not engineering, that's art.
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Chris Wright
2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.

The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a
half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain
at the same time.

Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The
keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it
steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape
-- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240
usable space with qvga.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
take more space than others.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Robert Taylor
Chris Wright wrote:
 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   
 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
   
 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.
 

 The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a
 half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain
 at the same time.

 Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The
 keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it
 steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape
 -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240
 usable space with qvga.

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The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think.

If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical 
keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you 
will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent 
resolution.

Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with 
xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty 
that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the 
same time.

- Rob

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dotan Cohen
2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

 How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
 take more space than others.


5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading
There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading.
You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading
is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs
the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and
derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes
necessary for reading.

7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dave O'Connor
Why not? I do it on a nokia n800. I don't use it a massive amount but it 
is fairly usable and that's also only 480px high (in freerunner landscape, 
in freerunner portrait it's 640px high).


On Mon, 9 Jun 2008, Robert Taylor wrote:

 Chris Wright wrote:
 2008/6/9 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
 scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font 
 -
 possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.

 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.


 The same with having to flip between right/left panes: it turns a
 half-second operation into a five-second one, and it taxes the brain
 at the same time.

 Moreover, this has to fit a keyboard along with anything else. The
 keyboard itself has very minimal needs in terms of resolution, but it
 steals about a third of the screen in portrait mode, more in landscape
 -- 640x480 is probably a bare minimum. You'd be getting 200 by 240
 usable space with qvga.

 ___
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 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

 The keyboard and and landscape mode are very important I think.

 If you are going to be doing ssh of any king you will need a physical
 keyboard (bluetooth or a foldout of some kind in a future model) and you
 will need to be able rotate the screen to landscape mode to get decent
 resolution.

 Now that qt is on x, landscape mode should be easily possible with
 xrandr so the last issue is a kb as in landscape mode its a certainty
 that you wont be able to use an onscreen kb with a stylus and ssh at the
 same time.

 - Rob

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is
vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go,
and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at
this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely
pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a
lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below
vga.

 How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version 
 with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain 
 there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels.
 
 Regards
 Peter Kraker
 
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
  On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 

  On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
 
  
  we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
  given. too
  bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
  trying to
  dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
  higher
  specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
  scenarios that
  make real sense. :)
  
  This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
  potential customer who says
  I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
  several here on this list,
  if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.

  no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to
  do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come
  first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X they
  get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i
  need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that
  means product management need to drop a feature.
  
 
  note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a product
  management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am
  looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible
 
  i know:
 
  1. u may need to scroll more
  2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to be
  zoomed out and have less display fidelity
  3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not
  readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut blur
  away all character details).
 
  with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:
 
  1. scaling data
  2. changing font sizes
  3. re-arranging ui elements etc.
 
  no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land or
  better. it's just a more extreme case.
 
  no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 800x480
  you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll
  horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up
  looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling
  needed.
 
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
  possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
 
  at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we
  make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to
  have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be
  somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know.
 
  right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
  gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much
  impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's
  fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they
  don't push one way or another.
  as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do,
  and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer
  technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?).
  is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a
  nice to have to show off with?
 

  BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
  describes a sequence of interactions
  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
  my academic history :)

  i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a
  case where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just
  wouldn't be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a
  use case for vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.
 
  
  Nikolaus
 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:11:37 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/9 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  [...]
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font
  - possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
 
  How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
  5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
  take more space than others.
 
 
 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for reading
 There, fixed that for you. Getting by with 3+1 pixels is not reading.
 You may be able to dechipher words, but that is not reading. Reading
 is when the brain skips over large portions of the text and absorbs
 the full meaning, because it is able to recognize familiar shapes and
 derive from them meaning. 3+1 cannot create the different shapes
 necessary for reading.

it can. given a well made font. done it before. see my previous mail with some
examples. when used as an actual font they are readable and recognisable as
their intended character (once you get used to the font).

 7 pix + 2 pix space is a minimum for _good_ reading
 
 Dotan Cohen
 
 http://what-is-what.com
 http://gibberish.co.il
 א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:10:22 +0200 Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On 6/9/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
  possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
 
 How can u separate @, #, $, S, %, æ, ø, o, etc,  when only using 3 pixels?
 5 pix + 1 pix space is a minimum for good reading, unless some chars
 take more space than others.

you make little shapeless blobs of the chars :) you can tell the difference
(though it's a terminal - if you start going into intl. chars like æ etc. imho
you are exiting the vt100 world - you could argue that you can't read 魚 in a
3 pixel (+ 1 space) font either... so i draw the line at basic ascii for a
terminal.

nb - your chars just become tall (3x7). eg:

%

#
  #
 #
#
  #


S

 ##
#
 #
  #
##

s


 ##
##
 ##
##

$
 #
 ##
##
 #
 ##
##
 #
@
 ##
# #
###
###
###
#
 ##
#
# #
# #
###
# #
### 
# #
# #
o


 #
# #
# #
 #


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:15:26 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/9 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
  scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide font -
  possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
 
 That is unusable. I'm sorry, I will not force myself to use that. I
 will buy something else. Using the terminal on a remote machine with a
 4 pixels font is possibile like it is possible to eat cockroaches for
 lunch everyday. There are some 'can get by' that I will not force
 myself to get by with.

have you done it? have you tried it? i have. it works ok. not beautiful - but
definitely functional.

  at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we
  make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to
  have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be
  somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know.
 
  right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
  gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much
  impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's
  fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they
  don't push one way or another.
  as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to do,
  and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer
  technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?).
  is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a
  nice to have to show off with?
 
 High res in very important for me. If I were to buy a phone without a
 high-res screen, it may as well not even have a screen. My home phone
 does not have a screen and as a phone I have no problem with it.
 However, it is good for nothing other than making phone calls. That is
 fine because in the house I have other devices that perform the
 functions that I need. My portable device, on the other hand, must be
 capable of more, much more, and everything that is not audio (ie,
 voice calls or music) requires the use of the screen. Do not skim on
 that most important of interface devices.
 
 Dotan Cohen
 
 http://what-is-what.com
 http://gibberish.co.il
 א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread The Rasterman
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:16:11 +0200 Peter J. Holzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 On 2008-06-09 09:09:15 -0400, Ken Young wrote:
  The question should be Are you willing to give up the benefits of a
  VGA screen in order to have smooth animation and fast video on a QVGA
  screen, and a lower cost?.   It seems to me that the vast majority of
  the people who have reponded here have said no, that's a poor
  engineering trade off.
 
 I don't have an openmoko yet, so I don't know how the display actually
 looks or how slow it is. I also don't know what I will use the
 freerunner for once I get it. But I image that the majority of uses
 involves text (email, news, ssh) which should really be displayed at 80
 chars/line. Probably simple graphics, too (e.g., maps). But I don't
 think I'll use it to watch videos or play 3d games - so high video
 performance isn't a high priority for me.
 
 My gut feeling is that 640x480 at 2.8 is awfully small (I've
 printed a screen-shot of an 80x25 windows (with mutt displaying a
 message from this list) at that size - I can read it, but I think
 reading longer messages at that font size would be a pain). So I think
 the direction openmoko should be going in later models (GTA04?) is
 towards a larger display with at least the same resolution (maybe
 640x480 at 4.2, or maybe a wider display (800x480?))

this is a core part of my point. i stare at this screen every day. i know its
dpi. most people imho will never make use of such a dpi as they literally can't
see it - they will NEED to use much bigger fonts just to see something other
than a blur. thus the resolution usefulness degrades rapidly. the but i can't
do 80x24 without vga is moot as it is a blur, unless you go up to a font size
where all you can fit is 60 wide or less.

i am surprised at the number of people who say their eyesight is so good they
will happily use tiiiny fonts on a vga 2.8 screen @ 285dpi. i accept that you
can - i am just surprised at the number of people who say they can actually see
this - compared to what i have actually seen in real life with much lower dpi
situations.

maybe it just needs people to actually use it for a while and they might begin
to see that a lower res screen may just be fine and not as bad as they think.
the things you want to do are possible at lower resolutions.

browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8 screen as many have suggested, is
really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web pages are
designed for 14 or 17 screens or so. squeezing them down into 2.8 is nigh
madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor (imho) :)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Dave O'Connor
I said this in the channel but you weren't there.

We should be going forward with specs, not backward. By the time the
next revisions come there'll be a whole new generation of hardware so
the freerunner will then be lagging even more. Someone mentioned getting
a faster cpu and my 2c are that I think that that's a much better
option. But it sounds like you've already made the decision.



On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:43:51 +0200 Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
 not going to happen - that's 2 product runs. expensive to maintain. gta03 is
 vga right now - unless there is a very big push to qvga. it is possible to go,
 and not hard at all. it would save costs on hardware, but it won't change at
 this stage. but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely
 pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a
 lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below
 vga.
 
  How painfull would it be, to sell GTA03 with QVGA and GTA03V version 
  with VGA screen, if those two are indeed very similar ? I'm certain 
  there are enough of us geeks ready to give up some glitter for pixels.
  
  Regards
  Peter Kraker
  
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) pravi:
   On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:56:22 +0800 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
 
   On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:
  
   
   we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
   given. too
   bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
   trying to
   dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
   higher
   specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
   scenarios that
   make real sense. :)
   
   This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
   potential customer who says
   I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
   several here on this list,
   if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
 
   no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to
   do things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they 
   come
   first. you users come second. in the end if product management want X 
   they
   get X. and if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i
   need a very very very strong argument against going to qvga - and that
   means product management need to drop a feature.
   
  
   note - i am talking hypothetically. i don't want to discuss vga as a 
   product
   management feature - not if you like it or not, or it looks pretty. i am
   looking for hard cold technical facts. what does it stop being possible
  
   i know:
  
   1. u may need to scroll more
   2. viewing of images/data that just have more pixel content will need to 
   be
   zoomed out and have less display fidelity
   3. some things requiring text displays like 80x24 terminals will be not
   readable at all at font sizes able to fit on the display (they will jut 
   blur
   away all character details).
  
   with almost everything i can think of you can get by qvga by:
  
   1. scaling data
   2. changing font sizes
   3. re-arranging ui elements etc.
  
   no matter what you need to do this even for vga - if coming fro xga land 
   or
   better. it's just a more extreme case.
  
   no mater what at vga - u still need to zoom most web pages. even at 
   800x480
   you still need to. i have a n800. i know how often i have to scroll
   horizontally even with 800pixels to play with. i know what it ends up
   looking like. so qvga is just a more extreme level of zooming or scrolling
   needed.
  
   an 80x24 terminal is possible to make it readable @ qvga - if we allow
   scrolling. (and possible in landscape with an ultra-tiny 4-pixel wide 
   font -
   possible (3 pixels for text, 1 for space). not very nice though.
  
   at some point someone will have to make a call on resolutions. maybe we
   make a much smaller phone with a smaller screen and thus you will need to
   have fewer pixels anyway? who knows. but if there are uses that cannot be
   somehow crammed into qvga, i would like to know.
  
   right now freerunner is vga - and nothing will change.
   gta03 is also vga - it is theoretically possible to change without much
   impact, but chances of a change are very slim, unless qvga is a that's
   fine for everyone ANd product management want to push it. right now they
   don't push one way or another.
   as for future phones - who knows. but knowing what you guys do, want to 
   do,
   and need is important. so we need to think of more virtual framebuffer
   technology? (eg advertise a higher res but scale down with a compositor?).
   is high-res an absolute must for functionality for your uses, or just a
   nice to have to show off with?
  
 
   BTW: a use 

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-09 Thread Mikko Rauhala
ti, 2008-06-10 kello 08:52 +0800, Carsten Haitzler kirjoitti:
 but beyond gta03 it's an open book and who knows - we may likely
 pull out a lower res screen. it is in fact very likely something will be a
 lower res in later products as there is just so much more choice there below
 vga.

As a =VGA advocate (for all the stated reasons; web browsing,
terminals, better maps, text reading etc.), yes, a lower resolution
model may be quite okay.

Personally though, it'd be a shame if in the future, for instance, I'd
have to pick between UMTS-capable and VGA-resolution OM phones, in the
scenario that you put out an UMTS phone with a lesser resolution with no
new high-resolution model imminent... The features are to some extent
complementary in the sense that more resolution makes the better
bandwidth and latency more useful (aside from just wanting both features
for their own sake, of course ;).

I _could_ actually see the point in making GTA03 a QVGA phone though,
since it wouldn't apparently offer much more than an 02 in the way of
other features. It could be the display cost-cut version of GSM OM
phones...

(Personally though, I would've gone straight 3G after GTA02 to get one
of those beasts out reasonably fast, since GSM is, well, aged, and
lacking 3G is starting to be a major misfeature. But I don't claim to
have done market studies on the case...)

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/
Transhumanist   - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/




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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get  
 group here.
 this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of  
 users. :)


Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose  
between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)?
Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the  
above question can't find an end...

BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as  
insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become
opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets.  
Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups
and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role  
of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have
done such a job for 10 years).

Nikolaus


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread Rahul Joshi
The root of all evil it seems is glamo. Why not remove the damn thing and
put in a new VGA hw which performs at the current CPU speeds? Is this
something not doable? There was a topic about SDIO multiplexing sometime
back and a hack to achieve this. Any headway on that?

Rahul J


On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

  but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get
  group here.
  this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of
  users. :)


 Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose
 between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)?
 Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the
 above question can't find an end...

 BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as
 insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become
 opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets.
 Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups
 and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role
 of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have
 done such a job for 10 years).

 Nikolaus


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread polz
IMHO, if the 320x240 display is readable under bright sunlight, it might be a 
better choice than the VGA display used in the GTA01. With the current 
display, the phone looks great inside a building / conference hall / photo 
studio, but it's pretty much useless as a GPS device you'd want to use when 
you're outside.

Before releasing a phone for the general public, pleasepleaseplease use it as 
your only phone for a week or so. Otherwise, the negative reaction from the 
press might cost you your reputation.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread thomasg
Glamo _will_ be out in GTA03. Unfortunately the slow arm9 will stay. Better
then with glamo it seems, but not perfect.

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Rahul Joshi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The root of all evil it seems is glamo. Why not remove the damn thing and
 put in a new VGA hw which performs at the current CPU speeds? Is this
 something not doable? There was a topic about SDIO multiplexing sometime
 back and a hack to achieve this. Any headway on that?

 Rahul J
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread The Rasterman
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:02:03 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

  but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get  
  group here.
  this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of  
  users. :)
 
 
 Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose  
 between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)?
 Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the  
 above question can't find an end...
 
 BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as  
 insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become
 opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets.  
 Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups
 and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role  
 of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have
 done such a job for 10 years).

i am sure it has - but given that the target group is not well defined - i have
yet to see a definition, nor see any research or statistics, nor anything else
concrete - it is all conjecture.

we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given. too
bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm trying to
dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want higher
specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case scenarios that
make real sense. :)

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 11:57 AM, polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 IMHO, if the 320x240 display is readable under bright sunlight, it might be a
 better choice than the VGA display used in the GTA01. With the current
 display, the phone looks great inside a building / conference hall / photo
 studio, but it's pretty much useless as a GPS device you'd want to use when
 you're outside.

 Before releasing a phone for the general public, pleasepleaseplease use it as
 your only phone for a week or so. Otherwise, the negative reaction from the
 press might cost you your reputation.

Full ACK! Trasflective QVGA is better

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread Peter Nijs
Op Sunday 08 June 2008 14:25:35 schreef Carsten Haitzler:
 On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:02:03 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 babbled:
   but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get
   group here.
   this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of
   users. :)
 
  Hm. You can't answer that before defining who the user is (choose
  between: me, you, this community, worldwide population)?
  Discussing the QVGA vs. VGA vs. new CPU question before answering the
  above question can't find an end...
 
  BTW: If we go to the level There appears to be a small 'i want as
  insane cheap display i can get' group here., this will become
  opinion bashing because it shows up different personal targets.
  Marketing science has invented the concept of target groups
  and plurality in product offerings to cover that problem. And the role
  of a Product Manager to balance and decide that (I have
  done such a job for 10 years).

 i am sure it has - but given that the target group is not well defined - i
 have yet to see a definition, nor see any research or statistics, nor
 anything else concrete - it is all conjecture.

 we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are given.
 too bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm
 trying to dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just
 want higher specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case
 scenarios that make real sense. :)

I think I've got a real use case scenario. I don't have extraordinarily 
eye-sight. In fact, with two eyes combined I've got just under 10/10 with 
quite strong glasses. (Not good enough to become a commercial pilot.)

I've don a little test with my current smartphone. It has a 2.8 inch qvga 
display. I've also searched for the smallest, comfortably readable printed 
text. I found it on the back of my first pda. It's the text tested to comply 
with. Than I've opened word mobile on my current smartphone and typed a 
little text. I made it as small as the printed text on the back of my oldest 
pda. The text in word wasn't readable anymore. It was reduced to a random 
bunch of black and white pixels.

Also watching pictures on the qvga screen isn't such a pleasure, but I've 
never had trouble watching movies. Another reason why I'm happy watching 
qvga movies is because they are much smaller for your phone's memory.

Conclusion: I'm certainly a big VGA proponent. Especially when browsing the 
internet and watching pictures.


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread joakim
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses 
 and
 they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all
 the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going
 off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small 
 minority
 who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many
 vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience
 over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg,
 iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave
 how nice it is.

 but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here.
 this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :)

As a data point, I'm planning to get 5 freerunners for different people
in my household. High dpi will probably only be interesting for one of
these, my own. I tend to like high dpi for reading. I dont care at all
about moving graphics for this kind of device, only text.




 Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested
 in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D
 
 On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
 
 
  On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   ...
   Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your
   desktop system?
   What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more?
   You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web
   browsing, gaming.
   Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old
   fashioned?
  
   this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than
   20/20 and i
   use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can
   read my
   miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen -
   they all
   complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i
   want anyone
   to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast
   majority of
   other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself
   out of this
   - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an
   exception to the
   rule.
 
  Hi there,
 
  I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to
  personally compare VGA  QVGA 2 phone screens.
 
  However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is
  generally quite visible to me.
 
  Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA
  for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my
  current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing
  webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at
  high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for
  me, be better for displaying webpages  PDFs - I'll be able to fit
  more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller
  text.
 
  So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).
 
  Stroller.
 
  it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a
  sudden
  here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real 
  life
  i
  never see them... :)
 
  --
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
 given. too
 bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
 trying to
 dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
 higher
 specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
 scenarios that
 make real sense. :)

This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
potential customer who says
I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
several here on this list,
if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.

BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
describes a sequence of interactions
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
my academic history :)

Nikolaus

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread The Rasterman
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

  we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
  given. too
  bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
  trying to
  dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
  higher
  specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
  scenarios that
  make real sense. :)
 
 This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
 potential customer who says
 I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
 several here on this list,
 if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.

no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do
things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first.
you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and
if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very very
very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management
need to drop a feature.

 BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
 describes a sequence of interactions
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
 my academic history :)

i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a case
where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just wouldn't
be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for
vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.

 Nikolaus
 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread The Rasterman
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 23:26:15 +0300 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 2008/6/8 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users
  rave how nice it is.
 
 
 I had the pleasure of playing with an iPhone recently, and I tried to
 determine the screen's resolution just by eyeballing it,
 unsuccessfully. I have a QVGA Nokia 6288, had another QVGA phone, had
 a VGA Dell Axim x50v, and a few other small devices with decent
 screens. The iPhone's screen is great not because of the resolution,
 but rather, because there is no 'screen door' effect. That means that
 white space is white, with no black grid surrounding the pixels as is
 typical in most LCD screens. When you cannot see the grid, you cannot
 determine resolution and that is why the iPhone screen looks as good
 as it does.

it has a screen door - it's definitely visible :) and the resolution is
320x480. not that high at all. in fact about half the dpi (or so) of the
neo/freerunner.

 Dotan Cohen
 
 http://what-is-what.com
 http://gibberish.co.il
 א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-08 Thread David Murrell
I'll go for resolution over pretty graphics any day of the week. 
A day to day example of this is that I don't run compiz on my desktop
machines because it runs faster that way. I'm a function over form kinda
guy. (For the record, the distro is Ubuntu, not slackware, or gentoo, or
anything that uses rpm's)

I don't watch videos on my ipod or my nokia phone, even though I
technically *can*. What I'm really looking forward to is being able to
open up an ssh session from my phone, and do *stuff* from it, regardless
of where I am.

That said, after I get my hands on the Freerunner, I may have a
different opinion. 

Cheers,
David

On Mon, 2008-06-09 at 08:56 +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:58:15 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED]
 babbled:
 
   we could just not ever even ask you guys and you get what you are  
   given. too
   bad. no input at all. i've opened up the floor for input - but i'm  
   trying to
   dig specific things out of it - not things that smell ofi just want  
   higher
   specs. or keeping up with the joneses. i want real use case  
   scenarios that
   make real sense. :)
  
  This discussion starts to become quite boring. Isn't a single  
  potential customer who says
  I want it and I am willing to pay for it enough? There have been  
  several here on this list,
  if I remember correctly who expressed exactly that.
 
 no. it is absolutely not enough. why? i am asked by product management to do
 things that are just not possible in vga (to do sanely/fast). they come first.
 you users come second. in the end if product management want X they get X. and
 if for X to happen we go QVGA, then so be it. you guys lose. i need a very 
 very
 very strong argument against going to qvga - and that means product management
 need to drop a feature.
 
  BTW: a use case doesn't say anything about required quality. It  
  describes a sequence of interactions
  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_case). Sorry, but I can't disclaim  
  my academic history :)
 
 i asked for use case because i am not just talking quality. i am talking a 
 case
 where vga makes something possible at all or not. where something just 
 wouldn't
 be usable or possible without vga. that is what i asked. i want a use case for
 vga. not just a it looks a bit nicer.
 
  Nikolaus
  
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Flyin_bbb8
Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested
in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D

On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:


 On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  ...
  Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your
  desktop system?
  What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more?
  You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web
  browsing, gaming.
  Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old
  fashioned?
 
  this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than
  20/20 and i
  use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can
  read my
  miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen -
  they all
  complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i
  want anyone
  to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast
  majority of
  other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself
  out of this
  - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an
  exception to the
  rule.

 Hi there,

 I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to
 personally compare VGA  QVGA 2 phone screens.

 However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is
 generally quite visible to me.

 Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA
 for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my
 current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing
 webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at
 high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for
 me, be better for displaying webpages  PDFs - I'll be able to fit
 more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller
 text.

 So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).

 Stroller.

 it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a
 sudden
 here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life
 i
 never see them... :)

 --
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Gabriel Ambuehl
On Saturday 07 June 2008 00:19:27 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
  I.e. the problem should be solved by a faster processor with better
  GPU rather
  than challenging and and trying to redue user's expectations. Can you
  build
  container trucks smaller because then they need much less parking space?

 but when it has been determined that your cpu is not changing - and there
 are no other gpu options to improve things... you only can change
 resolution or speed. which is more important?


Resolution is far more important. And graphics performance will hardly be 
worse than on GTA02, anyhow.

If you go QVGA, you're competing squarely against Moto MING and the like. At 
that point only the most hardcore gimme OPEN  crowd (which I estimate to be 
pretty small) will care about GTA03.







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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Friday 06 June 2008 19:18:43 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Yes. This should be IMHO the future for GTA03 - use a better chipset
 rather than a worse display resolution.

Full ACK.

 Some application I have choosen makes regular screen updates:

 Neo 1973  every 0.5 seconds (due to more work for the higher 
 number of
 pixels)
 Acer n30  every 0.3 seconds (same CPU but QVGA)
 Zaurus C3100  every 0.3 secons (with X/Qt on VGA)

 So, the difference is not that large by different architectures and
 display resolutions.
 The astonishing thing is that the C3100 is faster than the Neo with
 the same display.
 I.e. Display resolution by itself can not be the main issue with speed.

The PXA27x runs circles around the S3C2410.

 This brings me to a point not discussed so far. IMHO it also depends
 on whether Finger or Pen
 operation is used. With the finger, you have to reduce the display
 content anyway - like the iPhone
 working with many sheets moving from left to the right etc. But if you
 operate by pen, you have a
 much better precision so select something and you expect and can
 handle a much higher information
 density on a single page. So, a better screen reduces the number of
 flipping/switching operations.

 Finally, I think since the GTA03 platform should not rule out either
 finger or pen operation, it must fulfill the higher requirements.

That's what I was thinking as well.

Cheers,

Mickey.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 Am Fr  6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen:
  When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02),
  so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it
  should be an option when you buy

 If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings,
 to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a
 QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than
 a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no
 bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option.
 Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30
 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'.

 I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main
 concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the
 SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA
 LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev

Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution.

:M:

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels
 very smooth.

 it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers.  
 and a very
 good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still  
 HALF the
 pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen  
 - we'd have

 better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave  
 about how
 great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's  
 dpi is

I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a  
web page
you have always to zoom in the first step.

 pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as  
 hell has not


It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8...

 stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and  
 reality seem to
 show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell.

I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480.

Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research  
to find the
**best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility,  
information
density and cost.

Conclusion:

* QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the  
iPhone)
* VGA is better to use - which has its price.

So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements?

In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay  
the price
to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive  
processor
to get the speed.

Nikolaus


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Stroller

On 7 Jun 2008, at 04:10, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 ...
 I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to
 personally compare VGA  QVGA 2 phone screens.

 However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is
 generally quite visible to me.

 ... Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at
 high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for
 me, be better for displaying webpages  PDFs - I'll be able to fit
 more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller
 text.
 ...
 it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all  
 of a sudden
 here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in  
 real life i
 never see them... :)

I have to admit that I should have said my *corrected* eyesight is  
also better than 20/20 to be perfectly truthful, but I do wear my  
glasses at all waking hours.

I do need to get a new prescription at the moment, as it's been 3 or  
5 years since my last one and I have noticed degradation in the last  
few months. My eye tests have, however, been consistent over the last  
15 years - only slightly stronger glasses needed each time, and those  
have always given me better than 20/20 sight - and I'm still very  
aware of VDU quality.

Stroller.


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread The Rasterman
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and
they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all
the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going
off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority
who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many
vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience
over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg,
iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave
how nice it is.

but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here.
this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :)

 Well were all those 'never see them' people linux users and interested
 in openmoko? Haha we might just all be gifted people ! :D
 
 On 6/7/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 01:30:43 +0100 Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  babbled:
 
 
  On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   ...
   Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your
   desktop system?
   What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more?
   You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web
   browsing, gaming.
   Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old
   fashioned?
  
   this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than
   20/20 and i
   use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can
   read my
   miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen -
   they all
   complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i
   want anyone
   to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast
   majority of
   other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself
   out of this
   - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an
   exception to the
   rule.
 
  Hi there,
 
  I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to
  personally compare VGA  QVGA 2 phone screens.
 
  However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is
  generally quite visible to me.
 
  Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is just as good as VGA
  for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my
  current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing
  webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at
  high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for
  me, be better for displaying webpages  PDFs - I'll be able to fit
  more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller
  text.
 
  So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).
 
  Stroller.
 
  it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all of a
  sudden
  here a lot of excellent vision gifted people turn up, whereas in real life
  i
  never see them... :)
 
  --
  Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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 -- 
 Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
 
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-- 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread The Rasterman
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:08:05 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

  How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels
  very smooth.
 
  it has a hardware-accelerated 3d chipset with full opengl drivers.  
  and a very
  good chipset at that. that is why. as for half-vga. that's still  
  HALF the
  pixels the freerunner/neo1973 have. *IF* we shipped the same screen  
  - we'd have
 
  better performance. i find it interesting how so many peole rave  
  about how
  great the iphone screen is - but its tech specs are not so hot. it's  
  dpi is
 
 I would also like to have a better screen on the iPhone! If you open a  
 web page
 you have always to zoom in the first step.
 
  pretty bad compared to the standard these days. but that sure as  
  hell has not
 
 
 It would still be approx. 30% better than a QVGA 2'8...
 
  stopped it selling. :) this is why i ask - actual products and  
  reality seem to
  show that dpi is not a major factor. at least as best i can tell.
 
 I have now thought a lot about why they have chossen 320x480.
 
 Most probably, they have spent a lot of money and useability research  
 to find the
 **best compromise** between number of pixels, dpi, speed, readibility,  
 information
 density and cost.
 
 Conclusion:
 
 * QVGA is worse (!) than the best compromise (as benchmarked by the  
 iPhone)
 * VGA is better to use - which has its price.

also screens available at the time of development, would have factored in,
cost, but remember - they posess a massive amount more compute grunt to drive
their screen. we posess much less, so for the cpu power we have qvga is the
equivalent of 320x480 on the iphone - if we follow the above logic.

 So how should one decide between two contradicting requirements?
 
 In the view of openness and unknown future applications, I would pay  
 the price
 to go beyond the best compromise. Even if it needs a more expensive  
 processor
 to get the speed.

this is the thing - for now, processor isnt changing. so - it's resolution, or
speed that has to give (or features graphically).

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread The Rasterman
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
  Am Fr  6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen:
   When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02),
   so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it
   should be an option when you buy
 
  If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings,
  to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a
  QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than
  a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no
  bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option.
  Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30
  somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'.
 
  I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main
  concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the
  SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA
  LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev
 
 Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution.

vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor,
manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a
drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while).

for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will
and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly
agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the
benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg
480x272), but we won't.

-- 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Federico Lorenzi
IMHO: You can drive a VGA screen at QVGA, but you can't drive a QVGA
screen at VGA...

Cheers,
Federico

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 2:16 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:46:28 +0200 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 babbled:

 On Friday 06 June 2008 20:07:01 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
  Am Fr  6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen:
   When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02),
   so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it
   should be an option when you buy
 
  If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings,
  to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a
  QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than
  a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no
  bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option.
  Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30
  somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'.
 
  I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main
  concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the
  SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA
  LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev

 Full ACK. Once again, 03 is about evolution, not revolution.

 vga to qvga for gta03 is a drop-in replacement. same size, form-factor,
 manufacturer, etc. etc. - so as such it fits in with evolution. as it is a
 drop-in, it is a decision that can be changed easily (for at least a while).

 for now we have a vga screen on the gta03. i asked this after a talk with will
 and i wanted to gauge what people would really think about qvga. i'm fairly
 agnostic about vga vs qvga myself - i'm on the fence with it. i see the
 benefits both ways. if we could have i'd have liked an intermediate res (eg
 480x272), but we won't.

 --
 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am So  8. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler:
 but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here.
 this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :)

No it's not at all the question - other than for academic insight. 
If a VGA-screen isn't much more expensive than a Q, if we can drive a VGA as Q 
without problem or speed-penalty to do sane video etc., and if it's correct 
we used a VGA so far - we won't change this. No way!

cheers
jOERG


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Steven Kurylo
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses 
 and
 they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all
 the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going
 off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small 
 minority
 who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many
 vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience
 over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg,
 iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave
 how nice it is.


Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want
the higher spec.

I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and
wish it could go smaller.  I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4.
However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing
to say I'm in the minority.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-07 Thread Lally Singh
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled:

 actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses 
 and
 they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all
 the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma 
 going
 off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small 
 minority
 who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so 
 many
 vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my 
 experience
 over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - 
 eg,
 iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users 
 rave
 how nice it is.


 Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want
 the higher spec.

 I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and
 wish it could go smaller.  I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4.
 However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing
 to say I'm in the minority.

I'm pretty surprised the QVGA idea's getting any traction.  It's 2008.
 The GTA02 can be a little old-fashioned in exchange for it being
open, but the smartphone software market is opening up, and people
will become more willing to exchange some less openness for better
hardware.

The Freerunner I'll buy, but only due to current desires for a new toy
to hack with.  Its successors will need to be some advanced hardware
-- freedom's only good on a platform that stays worthwhile.

Frankly, I don't think too many people on this list are terribly price
sensitive -- we're putting up with a lot of variability in shipping
dates, hundreds of $$ for a phone whose software stacks will barely be
operational at launch, and the lack of the sort of live support you'd
get out of a decent phone shop.  Put together a new hardware platform
after this, and charge us for it!  The novelty of openness is only
worth so much by itself.

This is all in the most sincere support of OM, but what kind of friend
would I be if I didn't tell you the whole truth?

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the  
Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM  
survives...


There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer  
and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It  
works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This  
makes the difference.


I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to  
the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer  
is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do).


So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass  
market customer doesn't care about full openness.


Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a  
Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good)  
and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009.  
They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of  
the component manufacturers.


http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42

Tracking 30+ enabling technologies in the mobile devices market and  
provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or  
hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless  
devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly  
camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that  
leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS  
and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage  
media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee,  
NFC, and USB.
Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution across key global markets.  
Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution  
with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type;  
device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended  
analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in- 
depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/ 
music enabled devices.


http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736
http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899

Nikolaus



Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja:



quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)  
since we'e
going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you  
have to
fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of  
qvga is worth

the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.



I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4  
inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for  
reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels  
which you dont on the Neo but the display just feels better, crisper  
and better on the eyes. When you view higher res photos the Neo  
display seems better but not by much. The N95 is also good when you  
look at it on its own and one has no problems reading anything but  
when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can tell the  
display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in the  
sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)


The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used  
matters as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all  
needs on a mobile phone size device and would be great if it  
provides cost and speed improvements. But it has to be a really good  
quality QVGA.


Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM  
and would love to see something similar on GTA0X.


Rakshat
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread rakshat hooja
I agree with you that the VGA screen is very important for marketing the
Freerunner - other comparable smartphones dont have that feature and are
certainly no where near in terms of DPI. I am also assuming that OM wont
discontinue the GTA02 (Freerunner) when GTA03 comes out. So mass market
customers will have the choice of the VGA screen and at a cheaper price the
QVGA screeen+camera. It helps OM as they have two distinct phones available
on the same platform, consumers have choice and resellers have two models at
two different price points.

But one question that needs to be answered is - what is the cost saving of
using a QVGA screen. It has to be significant to consider this option.

Rakshat

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the Openmoko
 project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM survives...

 There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer and a
 sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It works, has 90g,
 Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This makes the difference.

 I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to the
 public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer is approx.
 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do).

 So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass market
 customer doesn't care about full openness.

 Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a Device
 Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good) and ask what
 the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009. They are good in
 predictions because they look into the roadmaps of the component
 manufacturers.

 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42


- *Tracking 30+ enabling technologies *in the mobile devices market and
provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or hinder
diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless devices markets.
The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly camera phone analysis
and market share, and has extended that leadership position on technologies
including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and
software, removable storage media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity
technologies like Zigbee, NFC, and USB.
- *Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution *across key global markets.
Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution with
forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type; device
segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended analysis of
ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in-depth analysis of
key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/music enabled devices.



 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736

 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899

 Nikolaus



 Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja:


  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
 we'e
 going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
 to
 fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
 worth
 the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.




 I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
 the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
 Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
 Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
 you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
 N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
 reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
 tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
 the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

 The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters
 as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile
 phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed
 improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA.

 Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and
 would love to see something similar on GTA0X.

 Rakshat
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread The Rasterman
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
babbled:

 IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the  
 Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM  
 survives...

why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan world are
qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there.

 There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer  
 and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It  
 works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This  
 makes the difference.
 
 I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag to  
 the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer  
 is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do).

for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie difference to
30%.

 So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass  
 market customer doesn't care about full openness.

the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is
underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then
instead.

 Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a  
 Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good)  
 and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009.  
 They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of  
 the component manufacturers.
 
 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42

don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now. what's
there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you 
need/want the
graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we are pushing
that at best. :)

but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's qvga is
still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than your specs
game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the
competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at all, let
alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga screen,
but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't smoothly handle
the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi and pixel
count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi helps there,
but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact these
probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put money on
that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy for over a
decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract people). to make
things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower resolution to do
it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws grunt is not
changing, cpu is not, the only 2 things that can change are screen resolution
or the eyecandy has to remain toned down. so does vga buy you more sales for
the average joe than a sexy bit of eyecandy at qvga? i'm leaning to qvga +
eyecandy myself.

 Tracking 30+ enabling technologies in the mobile devices market and  
 provides analytical views on the major issues likely to drive or  
 hinder diffusion of these technologies into the global wireless  
 devices markets. The WDS service was first to market with a quarterly  
 camera phone analysis and market share, and has extended that  
 leadership position on technologies including WLAN, digital TV, CMOS  
 and CCD cameras, Operating Systems and software, removable storage  
 media, GPS, and other wireless connectivity technologies like Zigbee,  
 NFC, and USB.
 Device Feature Roadmaps and evolution across key global markets.  
 Research in this area includes analysis of feature phone evolution  
 with forecasts by device type; device vendor share by device type;  
 device segmentation analysis by ASP tier, with forecasts; extended  
 analysis of ultra-low handset diffusion drivers and forecasts; and in- 
 depth analysis of key device types, i.e. TV enabled handsets and MP3/ 
 music enabled devices.
 
 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3736
 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=ReportAbstractViewera0=3899
 
 Nikolaus
 
 
 
 Am 05.06.2008 um 14:32 schrieb rakshat hooja:
 
 
  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)  
  since we'e
  going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you  
  have to
  fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of  
  qvga is worth
  the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
 
 
 
  I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4  
  inch and the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for  
  reading is the Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels  
  which you dont on 

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller

Am 06.06.2008 um 09:45 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman):

 On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:09:55 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED] 
 
 babbled:

 IMHO, reducing any Openmoko device to QVGA will be the end of the
 Openmoko project. And I have business reasons to wish that OM
 survives...

 why would it be the end? the majority of phones in the non-japan  
 world are
 qvga. it'd be no worse than most things out there.

Yes, the majority is. And has been brought out last year. So, is this  
the scale for the
2009 market?

There was some shift with high end PDA displays. In approx. 2006 most  
QVGA
models were dropped and only VGA remained. E.g. Acer n30 - n310.

Another point from my discussions at LinuxTag: people want to have a  
successor for the Sharp Zaurus.
The C750 introduced VGA in 2005 (or so). So, we don't get anyone who  
wanted to have a Zaurus successor!

 There are plenty of QVGA designs out there and I even have an offer
 and a sample of a Linux smartphone at half the price of the OM. It
 works, has 90g, Quadband, and an integrated stylus. But QVGA. This
 makes the difference.

This is my core argument: I can buy a GTA03 / QVGA today. I don't  
have to wait for OM to develop such
a reduced device. Therefore I want OM to stay with VGA because it is  
leading and unique...

 I have shown a QVGA Acer n30 and the VGA Neo on FOSDEM and LinuxTag  
 to
 the public. Everybody considered the VGA as better although the Acer
 is approx. 30% faster (because it has less rendering to do).

 for us qvga would be give or take 3 times faster. thats a massie  
 difference to
 30%.


The Acer n30 has a 266 MHz Samsung S3C2410, QVGA
The Neo1973 has a S3C2410AL-26 with 266 MHz, VGA

Rendering a quarter of pixels appears to be not all the tasks the  
processor has to do.

I have not done a FPS comparison between both.

 So, where would be the uniqueness of OM devices? The average mass
 market customer doesn't care about full openness.

 the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power  
 it is
 underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow  
 then
 instead.

Yes, slowness is the most critical complaint. But how should I  
convince anyone
to buy an OM if I also have a QVGA device which feels fast (based on  
OMAP 730
and some Qt 2.x)?

 Please consider basic rules of marketing. And, consider purchasing a
 Device Feature Roadmap from Strategy Analytics (they are really good)
 and ask what the percentage prediction for VGA vs. QVGA is for 2009.
 They are good in predictions because they look into the roadmaps of
 the component manufacturers.

 http://www.strategyanalytics.com/default.aspx?mod=NavigationHeadera0=42

 don't need them. just go to tokyo and look what's there on sale now.  
 what's
 there will be what the rest of the world gets to doing 2 years later.

Not necessarily. The iPhone wasn't there 3 years ago. And i-mode never  
became
popular. But I agree that you can see some technology there already  
built into
devices.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] is now the top of the line display. but again - you  
 need/want the
 graphics back end to fill that many pixels smoothly. right now we  
 are pushing
 that at best. :)

How is the iPhone doing it? It has Half-VGA resolution and feels  
very smooth.

 but even so - in the ultra-high-tech of japan's mobile phone telco's  
 qvga is
 still VERY COMMON. if we want to play the my specs are better than  
 your specs
 game right now, we will lose. we do not have the sourcing power of the

Unfortuntely, I have to play that game if I want to sell OM devices...

 competing vendors. we often can't even get the better components at  
 all, let
 alone for a good price. we get what we can get. sure - we have a vga  
 screen,
 but really, how good is that if the rest of the device can't  
 smoothly handle
 the screen? it isn't just dpi. if all you measure a device on is dpi  
 and pixel

There is one strategic aspect to consider: If you keep the same  
display model and vendor,
it saves engineering time and you can drive down cost by getting
more and more volume from a single vendor. This may outweight any  
better price
of a different vendor.

 count, you are being silly. how it looks matters even more. dpi  
 helps there,
 but so does compositing, translucency, smooth animation etc. in fact  
 these
 probably have a much greater buy me effect. by far more. i'll put  
 money on
 that bet actually (this is just speaking from having done eyecandy  
 for over a
 decade - on linux, and having seen what it can do to attract  
 people). to make

Yes. But this is in some conflict with providing an open platform that  
others
can adapt to their user's needs. If it has QVGA it rules out many  
commercial
projects where eye-candy and video speed is not that important but high
information density.

 things like compositing fast, smooth and nice, you must lower  
 resolution to do
 it, or increase graphics power grunt. so given that graphicws 

Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread Justyn Butler
All of the geeks that I have shown my GTA01 to have been in awe of
it's high-res VGA screen.
Whatever direction OpenMoko wants to go in, I'm sure geeks will always
be a large part of their target demographic.

To touch on Gabriel's comment, WVGA would be the same resolution as
the Nokia N800 series but in a more compact screen.
With that resolution perhaps the GTA03 would start tapping into other
unexpected markets - for example some of the people who like the
internet tablets and also eee-PC type devices. It would contribute to
an incredible portable web-browsing experience (which is what those
other devices are designed for, and why they sell) but in the GTA03 it
would be built into your phone (which makes it the most portable of
all).

Justyn.


2008/6/5 rakshat hooja [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
 we'e
 going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
 to
 fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
 worth
 the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.



 I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
 the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
 Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
 Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
 you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
 N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
 reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
 tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
 the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

 The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters
 as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile
 phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed
 improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA.

 Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and
 would love to see something similar on GTA0X.

 Rakshat

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 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community



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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

2008-06-06 Thread Tom Cooksey
On Friday 06 June 2008 09:45:29 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
 the problem is - if you have a nice screen but the engine to power it is
 underpowered, you will suffer from complaints of it just being slow then
 instead.

I'd like to wave the little please can we have a decent SoC flag again. Yes, 
the CPU
is too slow to drive VGA... but don't fix the problem by putting a lower-spec 
LCD in,
fix the _real_ issue - The CPU is too slooow!

I assume you're concidering a new LCD for the GTA03? Fine, but if you're going 
for a 
revamp on the GTA04, stick the VGA display back in and give us (well, sell us) 
a SoC with 
some real graphics grunt. And I'm not talking about the Samsung s3c6400 - it is 
still 
way too underpowered. Maybe s3c6410 which seems to have a programmable 3D 
pipeline Go on, you know you want to... Pixel shaders...  Compiz on a 
phone...
windows which cast real, pixel-perfect soft shadows... Think what we could do 
with it! 
An entirely clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/blog/) based UI! It's 
_worth_ a binary
blob driver. Who knows, maybe samsung will even let you write an open source 
driver?
(Don't think the s3c6410's 3D core is a PowerVR, seems to be something 
different?)


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