Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
darn, and I was really hoping it was a bottle opener! :-) Perhaps we can have this feature in future revisions ;-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 1/27/07 7:12 AM, Mary Stovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a thought. Recently I convinced a friend to get a prepaid cell phone and hang it around her neck when she went out in case she needed to call for help. This allowed her greater freedom to leave home and sure was less expensive than some other advertised devices. I thought of this with the design of the Moko which seems to have a nice place to put a lanyard. Which will come in the box ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Bryan Fink wrote: Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, Really interesting thread, Bryan - and definitely worth thinking about, because the 'pitch' to different types of people (developers, early adopting consumers, businesses, mass market) will certainly have to vary! I'd make one comment on the quote above. I agree that most people would tend to dismiss unspecified fears (this bit of hardware might be doing something behind my back!). But if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu: very few MMSs are sent in comparison to texts, but the operators are keen to encourage take-up. Or another example: there's no technical reason why you can't use any MP3 you've transferred to your phone as a ringtone. But allowing that would limit a lucrative market, so most phones prevent it. It'd be interesting to start collecting ideas of potential ways to express the benefits to different types of customer: who would be most interested in what type of message? When I get a minute over the weekend, I'll add some thoughts to the wiki (which might need a 'Marketing' section...). Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
If anyone needs examples of how phones connect behind ones back, I can provide a fair few. I had the O2 XDA Orbit. It looks like a smashing phone, but the software on it lets it down massively. The carrier have changed the software's functionality, so even when you disable GPRS connection (like putting the phone into flight mode, but with just GPRS) the software turns it back on. This led to a bill of £26 after just 5 days of having the phone. Needless to say, the phone went back, and I'm now sitting on my hands until I graduate from Uni, carry on my professional career, and hopefully get my hands on the neo1973 in September. I must say, the experience with integrated GPS was probably the best thing about the phone. I had to visit a client - the GPS took me to the nearest car park, then I was able to use walk mode to find my way right to their front door. I had a handheld GPS before, which one couldn't really use to the same extent. Bryan Fink wrote: Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, Really interesting thread, Bryan - and definitely worth thinking about, because the 'pitch' to different types of people (developers, early adopting consumers, businesses, mass market) will certainly have to vary! I'd make one comment on the quote above. I agree that most people would tend to dismiss unspecified fears (this bit of hardware might be doing something behind my back!). But if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu: very few MMSs are sent in comparison to texts, but the operators are keen to encourage take-up. Or another example: there's no technical reason why you can't use any MP3 you've transferred to your phone as a ringtone. But allowing that would limit a lucrative market, so most phones prevent it. It'd be interesting to start collecting ideas of potential ways to express the benefits to different types of customer: who would be most interested in what type of message? When I get a minute over the weekend, I'll add some thoughts to the wiki (which might need a 'Marketing' section...). Cheers, Ben -- Andrew Loughran ZRMT Solutions ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 26/01/07, Ben F-W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu Yes, totally - being able to reconfigure your menus to the order that you most commonly use (or even to have the option of the phone doing this automatically, so it 'naturally smooths' to your common usage) is an example I have used. I have also used the example of the 'home screen' having a simple graph of how many inclusive minutes your subscription plan has in total, and how many are remaining, and when you go to make a call, an indication of the cost per minute to that number at this time, if it is not in the inclusive minutes. Operaters would utterly, utterly, hate this kind of feature, but I can't think of any user who wouldn't want it :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Hey Bryan, This is a very interesting thread, it almost qualify as a very primitive market report for OpenMoko. :-) For me personally, I would like the phone to be a commercial success. Commercial success means a higher chance of version 2 beyond of the phone being considered by FIC. Commercial success also means a critical mass would have been reached for market penetration. This could mean that good developers could develop great and innovative applications for the phone full time, and be able to make a living from it. Commercial success also means getting the non-coders excited about this phone, and want to buy it and use it. Without commercial success, I fear that this platform won't survive past this iteration. Cheers, Tehn Yit Chin ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
This should be put on the Wiki under Advocacy (or similar): On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 09:16 +, Andrew Loughran wrote: If anyone needs examples of how phones connect behind ones back, I can provide a fair few. I had the O2 XDA Orbit. It looks like a smashing phone, but the software on it lets it down massively. The carrier have changed the software's functionality, so even when you disable GPRS connection (like putting the phone into flight mode, but with just GPRS) the software turns it back on. This led to a bill of £26 after just 5 days of having the phone. Needless to say, the phone went back, and I'm now sitting on my hands until I graduate from Uni, carry on my professional career, and hopefully get my hands on the neo1973 in September. I must say, the experience with integrated GPS was probably the best thing about the phone. I had to visit a client - the GPS took me to the nearest car park, then I was able to use walk mode to find my way right to their front door. I had a handheld GPS before, which one couldn't really use to the same extent. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 1/26/07 5:39 AM, Mary Stovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OpenMoko appeals to me because it is innovative and cool looking. Also, I am tired of having to replace my phone...I have 5 right now that are useless. I want a phone that can update and add applications that I want. I want a phone that I can just slip in a sim from what ever provider gives me the best deal.I was thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy way for people to add applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it. ( I would be willing to pay the developer after a trial). Mary, Thanks a lot for posting this kind of comment. It's very down to earth and definitely a need we hope to be able to fulfill in the near future. Please stick around and give us all comments when we ship this phase 1 handset. I would really like to have non-coders supplying feedback, too. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Greetings Rob and Sean, Thank you for welcoming me to the community! I have played catch up on the discussions going on here and it is very lively and interesting. I am now very excited about OpenMoko! I can well understand the excitement and desire to get ones hands on this phone and take the impatience of some as an expression of this. Though I can not help in the development of software, I might be helpful in coming up with some ideas of how to present this phone to the average user and get ideas of things they would like to see on their phone. Maybe get them excited about having one get them over sticker shock when they see the advantage of having a phone that you can keep and upgrade and have it your way. I imagine by now, the development team has ideas on this, but I would like to do my bit. Just a thought. Recently I convinced a friend to get a prepaid cell phone and hang it around her neck when she went out in case she needed to call for help. This allowed her greater freedom to leave home and sure was less expensive than some other advertised devices. I thought of this with the design of the Moko which seems to have a nice place to put a lanyard. There may be a nice app could be designed around this with a call for help button...and with GPS already there...just in case. Best Regards, mary ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Hi all. I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt like there may be some people around here who would be interested in the reactions I've gotten. The main camps are as you would expect: positively-excited, negatively-excited, and indifferent. What I think is interesting, is why people put themselves in those camps. Surprisingly, few of the positively-excited people I've recruited so far are coders. They're actually more interested in the fact that it's open, and not controlled by some faceless corporation. They're excited that they won't have to be stuck with Nokia's/Motorolla's/etc. crappy software and forced upgrade path. As I'm in the U.S., they're also surprised and excited to hear that it's naturally unlocked so they can choose whatever provider they want. I did have one person who ended up positively-excited, but hesitated briefly before that. I had been talking up the freedom to tinker line, and they got worried that you would *have* to be a tinkerer to even get the phone working. Assuring them of out-of-the-box functionality and the OpenMoko Certified download center was crucial. Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said exactly this, Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes for no reason. I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a living. But, he has had poor experience with linux stability - specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators. So, just as a warning, mentioning linux in an OpenMoko discussion will not automatically win you friends. Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class. Many people are quick to ask, Why would you want an open source phone? Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, yield further questions to which further answers like, I don't know, but *something*, are not enough. And, there's always the, Well, I'm perfectly happy with what I have now, people. My feeling is that these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific feature about it. Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions? -Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 25/01/07, Bryan Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said exactly this, Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes for no reason. I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a living. But, he has had poor experience with linux stability - specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators. Maybe you could point out that those drivers are proprietary software, which is why they are so buggy? :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Hi Bryan, That's quite interesting feedback. I have only really brought this subject up with developer mates and one gadgetophile. The heavily windows leaning developers have expressed a cool enthusiasm but that will warm when they can see a product and get an idea for the sort of apps that are being developed. All of them without exception have been infuriated by their locked down win mobile 5 phones when they have tried to customise or even make the most basic layout changes. One of the more adventurous has gone as far as flashing various bits of firmware at reasonable risk to achieve these results. They are certainly interested in the openness aspects but only really have reservations about windows(read exchange etc) compatibility. I reckon I'll get a few developer converts for the phone if not to a desktop flavour of linux. From what you've said I think it would be fair to predict a uniform indifference to the phone from non developers since they are already bombarded daily by a deluge of new must have handsets. Once we reach general availability and hopefully have a few more fun apps put together I think that plenty more people can be swayed. With some of the ease of use ideas floated here, given that the hardware and software implementation live up to the hype, we should be able to hit quite a reasonable size target market. However, any serious market penetration in the UK is going to depend on carrier subsidy since nearly all upgrades here are free/low cost + contract - even on relatively cheap contracts. If Sean and the team can make that a reality it certainly puts us on a level playing field price wise allowing us to push the obvious advantages ;) I found the truly negatively-excited person pretted amusing actually since I've had entirely the opposite experience of Windows/Linux with high end cards, some games even get a better FPS in linux. Guess that's the downside of such a diverse hardware eco system. Always going to be tough to put a really stable system together. Anyone who's been running an acer laptop with one of the newer ATI graphics cards must know what I'm talking about because the gcard takes win xp down all the time... -Pete On 25/01/07, Bryan Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all. I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt like there may be some people around here who would be interested in the reactions I've gotten. The main camps are as you would expect: positively-excited, negatively-excited, and indifferent. What I think is interesting, is why people put themselves in those camps. Surprisingly, few of the positively-excited people I've recruited so far are coders. They're actually more interested in the fact that it's open, and not controlled by some faceless corporation. They're excited that they won't have to be stuck with Nokia's/Motorolla's/etc. crappy software and forced upgrade path. As I'm in the U.S., they're also surprised and excited to hear that it's naturally unlocked so they can choose whatever provider they want. I did have one person who ended up positively-excited, but hesitated briefly before that. I had been talking up the freedom to tinker line, and they got worried that you would *have* to be a tinkerer to even get the phone working. Assuring them of out-of-the-box functionality and the OpenMoko Certified download center was crucial. Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said exactly this, Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes for no reason. I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a living. But, he has had poor experience with linux stability - specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators. So, just as a warning, mentioning linux in an OpenMoko discussion will not automatically win you friends. Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class. Many people are quick to ask, Why would you want an open source phone? Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, yield further questions to which further answers like, I don't know, but *something*, are not enough. And, there's always the, Well, I'm perfectly happy with what I have now, people. My feeling is that these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific feature about it. Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions? -Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 1/25/07, Peter A Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reckon I'll get a few developer converts for the phone if not to a desktop flavour of linux. That's actually something I'm anxious to see. Given that it's non-trivial to buy a computer (in the U.S.) with linux pre-loaded, and that people are generally leery of abandoning their current OS, and that mobile phones have a larger market and higher penetration than desktop computers - it will be interesting to see how the name Linux moves through the public consciousness. Will people be impressed by their cellphone interface, and pleasantly surprised that they can find something by the same name for their desktop computer? I fully expect their to be no such effect on the greater linux community - there's been no such effect, that I can tell, from things like Linksys's networking products or other linux phones - but it is fun to speculate. :) From what you've said I think it would be fair to predict a uniform indifference to the phone from non developers since they are already bombarded daily by a deluge of new must have handsets. Once we reach general availability and hopefully have a few more fun apps put together I think that plenty more people can be swayed. Agreed. I think we, as developers and early adopters, will have to have patience and be persistent to see the OpenMoko market grow. It's impossible for OpenMoko to go head-to-head with Nokia/Motorolla's advertising, but solid underground community support could easily produce a strong following that would grow naturally on its own. Alas, I'm no marketing expert, and certainly not privy to Scott co.'s plans. So, like everyone else here, I'm just excited and ready jump in and see what happens. -Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Bryan Fink wrote: Hi all. I've been talking up OpenMoko to everyone I know, and I felt like there may be some people around here who would be interested in the reactions I've gotten. The main camps are as you would expect: positively-excited, negatively-excited, and indifferent. What I think is interesting, is why people put themselves in those camps. Surprisingly, few of the positively-excited people I've recruited so far are coders. They're actually more interested in the fact that it's open, and not controlled by some faceless corporation. They're excited that they won't have to be stuck with Nokia's/Motorolla's/etc. crappy software and forced upgrade path. As I'm in the U.S., they're also surprised and excited to hear that it's naturally unlocked so they can choose whatever provider they want. I did have one person who ended up positively-excited, but hesitated briefly before that. I had been talking up the freedom to tinker line, and they got worried that you would *have* to be a tinkerer to even get the phone working. Assuring them of out-of-the-box functionality and the OpenMoko Certified download center was crucial. Also surprisingly, the one truly negatively-excited person I met said exactly this, Great, so I'll have a phone that just randomly crashes for no reason. I know that he has run Red Hat Linux, and codes for a living. But, he has had poor experience with linux stability - specifically around crappy drivers for new graphics accelerators. So, just as a warning, mentioning linux in an OpenMoko discussion will not automatically win you friends. Finally, by far the largest camp is the indifferent class. Many people are quick to ask, Why would you want an open source phone? Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, yield further questions to which further answers like, I don't know, but *something*, are not enough. And, there's always the, Well, I'm perfectly happy with what I have now, people. My feeling is that these people won't be convinced until there's considerable buzz from many people who have actually tried OpenMoko and like some specific feature about it. Has anyone else had a different variety of reactions? Thanks for your observation, Bryan. This is a very interesting thread. I'll pay more attention to the various responses I get. (So far I've been so excited by what I'm describing that I didn't really listen to their responses :-) Regarding your comment about mentioning Linux to someone who had poor experience with it, you may be amused by today's Dilbert: www.dilbert.com M ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 25/01/07, Wil Chung [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd imagine if you draw parallels to the internet, the issue of malware and viruses inevitably crop up. Just telling people Linux is more secure probably doesn't alleviate fears. I probably wouldn't know what to say. Anyone wanna take that one? Malware and viruses occur in proprietary software, because they rely on problems that go unfixed. When software is free, the problems get fixed very quickly in the short term - like in hours or days instead of week or months. In the long term, smart ways to do things in general are used, and these mean problems are not even possible to arise in the first place. That's basically how I field this question when it comes up in my GNU/Linux speeches :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Just a few thoughts. I recently discovered OpenMoko while researching the Apple iphone. I am not a developer, but enjoy reading this forum. I do not think the average user knows much about... the concept of locked and unlocked... much less open. I am your general user, looking for an innovative, easy to use phone that I can use with any provider...which leaves out the Apple iphone. I looked at the Nokia E and N series unlocked phones, but expensive and too many gadgets and programs I don't need or want. The OpenMoko appeals to me because it is innovative and cool looking. Also, I am tired of having to replace my phone...I have 5 right now that are useless. I want a phone that can update and add applications that I want. I want a phone that I can just slip in a sim from what ever provider gives me the best deal.I was thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy way for people to add applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it. ( I would be willing to pay the developer after a trial). I don't know any average users that care about using their phone to browse the web, but I do know a few that would like having a phone that would let you use one phone at home and away ( like the T-Mobile [EMAIL PROTECTED] project in Seattle) A phone that could be used with Truephone or Gizmo Project would be great. Sorry to be mentioning the wi-fi thing again.I understand that will be a future thing for Moko. Or perhaps, one of you has or will come up with an idea of another way to connect for free or low cost call. I use T-Mobile prepaid and Sunrocket Voip cancelled my landline 2 years ago. I live in Portland Oregon where free wi-fi is being wired to the whole city, thus my interest in a wi-fi capable phone. I would buy the OpenMoko phone when it is available, because it has great possibilities and I want to watch it evolve. Mary ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 25/01/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy way for people to add applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it. ( I would be willing to pay the developer after a trial). I guess the most software will be free... Many free software projects accept donations, and if you are willing to pay the developers after enjoying their software, I feel it is important to donate a little. Free software is about 'without restrictions' not 'without paying,' like free speech instead of free beer :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
