Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-13 Thread Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 05:14:03PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 
 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by selling 
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help EE guys in 
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for production 
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis with 
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the guy 
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You can't patch 
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on 
 hw!).

   Actually, it would be useful to know which signals are available from a
trace on the surface. With only the schematics and component placement
available, you're pretty much out of luck unless the signal happens to be
available at a test point, resistor, capacitor or some other component with
exposed terminals. The Big-C buzz fix is an example of a mod which makes use
of a surface trace.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-13 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am Mo  13. April 2009 schrieb Rask Ingemann Lambertsen:
 On Sun, Apr 05, 2009 at 05:14:03PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
  You can't patch 
  a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on 
  hw!).
 
Actually, it would be useful to know which signals are available from a
 trace on the surface. With only the schematics and component placement
 available, you're pretty much out of luck unless the signal happens to be
 available at a test point, resistor, capacitor or some other component with
 exposed terminals. The Big-C buzz fix is an example of a mod which makes use
 of a surface trace.

Not exactly. As virtually all you got on surface traces is GND, nothing 
else. So buzzfix is using GND and component contacts only. And there's not 
very much to know about this topic. Otherwise I would have published it.

cheers
jOERG


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread arne anka
 development has stopped. period.

The misrepresentation - which you seem to think is not a
 misrepresentation - in the news coverage is that they're saying  
 development
 of open phones at OM has been cancelled, while all that's been decided  
 is to
 cancel the GTA03, not development of more open phones.

since, at least to my information, the gta03 was the only phone being  
developped, halting devel of gta03 meant halting all phone devlopment.
and i tried to avoid the use of cancel, since to me it has some finite  
touch about it, while stop means, it can start again.

according to steve mosher's mail there's ongoing work, development if you  
will, to kind of fork from the gta02 -- i can't recall having heard of  
_serious_ plans to do so before.


after all, i think this thread is rather more noise in the list and for  
most people subscribed rather annoying (listing the different links to  
news articles and fretting over more or less wrong interpretations in the  
news has been so from the start).
so, unless something really important comes up, i think, we can stop here,  
eh, cancel ;-)

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread arne anka
 development has stopped. period.
 There other phones in the   pipeline
 Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
 different target markets.  Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.

the first time i hear that.
even the statements quotes so excessively mentioned only a plan b, being  
_not_ a phone.

if my definition od development doesn't fit your's - not my problem (and  
no, i wasn't speaking of software development).

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 07:34:04PM +0200, arne anka wrote:
  phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 
  it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
  development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is  
  not a successor to the GTA02.
 
 i never said, it has to be a successor to gta02.
 the only other phone in the pipeline had the name gta03 and its  
 development has stopped. period.

   The misrepresentation - which you seem to think is not a
misrepresentation - in the news coverage is that they're saying development
of open phones at OM has been cancelled, while all that's been decided is to
cancel the GTA03, not development of more open phones.

  gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.
 
  Perhaps you could clarify what  you
  think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).
 one or more of the following
 
 - newer/better hardware
 - improved functionality (f ex wrt standby time, power consumption)
 - different device

   Dieter Spaar is working on the deep sleep mode of the Calypso. If he
suceeds, it will improve standby time and power consumption.

https://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-March/001086.html
https://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2009-April/001106.html

 i am sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of  
 development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it serve?

   No, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly before I claim
you are wrong.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread Steve Mosher


arne anka wrote:
 development has stopped. period.
 There other phones in the   pipeline
 Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
 different target markets.  Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.
 
 the first time i hear that.
 even the statements quotes so excessively mentioned only a plan b, being  
 _not_ a phone.
 
 if my definition od development doesn't fit your's - not my problem (and  
 no, i wasn't speaking of software development).

If your definition of development doesnt match mine then
we are not even communicating. If I dont know your definition then you 
can change it sentence to sentence. Ever read alice in wonderland?

Since I have a clear picture of in development and since I am 
interested in communication rather than gainsaying, I'll explain.

The development process goes through these stages:

  1. Concept
  2. Pilot study, prototype
  3. Business plan review
  4. Engineering review.
  5. Project kick off.
  6. product delivery.

If we were stopping phone development we would stop all activity in 1-6.

  Two products-- FR and B-- are in stages 5  6. Given the state of FR 
software I dont consider it to be finished yet.

WRT to the other phones in development All have passed stage 1. 4 have 
passed stage 2 and are in stages 3 and 4.

Perhaps I can make it this simple. We have on staff a top notch 
Industrial designer. he is paid to do designs. Concepts, sketches,
3D renderings, and physical models. It is a critical function to
product development. And it's not cheap. If we stopped phone development 
we would tell him to stop all design work on new phones. We haven't. In 
fact, I just held his latest design in my hand 2 weeks ago and now we 
will proceed to carry out steps 3 and 4. There is no PROMISE it will 
make it to step 5. my business review could KILL IT. engineering review 
could Kill it. If we were stopping development I wouldnt even DO the 
business review.

Now, you didnt know about this stuff. But you defend a headline that 
speculated about facts not in evidence.

In your first post you said you saw nothing that indicated you were 
wrong. what do you say now?  It seems to me you have said this:

  1. I say OM is stopping development because I see nothing to indicate
 otherwise.
  2. Now I see things that indicate otherwise, so now I can say first I 
heard of this!

  You made the classic mistake of taking the absence of evidence as 
evidence of absence.




 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread Steve Mosher


arne anka wrote:
 development has stopped. period.
The misrepresentation - which you seem to think is not a
 misrepresentation - in the news coverage is that they're saying  
 development
 of open phones at OM has been cancelled, while all that's been decided  
 is to
 cancel the GTA03, not development of more open phones.
 
 since, at least to my information, the gta03 was the only phone being  
 developped, halting devel of gta03 meant halting all phone devlopment.
 and i tried to avoid the use of cancel, since to me it has some finite  
 touch about it, while stop means, it can start again.
 
 according to steve mosher's mail there's ongoing work, development if you  
 will, to kind of fork from the gta02 -- i can't recall having heard of  
 _serious_ plans to do so before.

   Ok last words.  yes, some of the plans are forks or follow-ons.
   some are not. Finally, now you are changing the terms of the debate 
from  in development to Serious plans Let me define serious
   and put an end to speculations. If we spend time and money on it
   it's serious. Time and money is being spent. (Ok now dont shift the 
debate to how much time and how much money counts as serious. or dont 
complain that I didnt tell you everything and therefore you were forced 
to speculate. )

In any case, We do agree that this discussion is better taken up 
elsewhere. Come to the Gta03 list and make some positive contributions, 
or healthy criticisms. I know you are passionate about this stuff as am 
I. I'll talk as transparently as I can over there with people who want 
to move things forward. come and join us. and peace.
last words from me here on this stuff, hope to see you on the new list.
 
 
 after all, i think this thread is rather more noise in the list and for  
 most people subscribed rather annoying (listing the different links to  
 news articles and fretting over more or less wrong interpretations in the  
 news has been so from the start).
 so, unless something really important comes up, i think, we can stop here,  
 eh, cancel ;-)
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-11 Thread arne anka
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

 it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
 development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is  
 not a successor to the GTA02.

i never said, it has to be a successor to gta02.
the only other phone in the pipeline had the name gta03 and its  
development has stopped. period.


 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.

I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements  
 to existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what  
 you
 think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).


this is merely hairsplitting (and, no offense, just because you think i am  
wrong does not mean you are right), but here goes:
one or more of the following

- newer/better hardware
- improved functionality (f ex wrt standby time, power consumption)
- different device

i am sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of  
development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it serve?
i said it how i see it and so far no information has convinced me that i  
am wrong here.

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-11 Thread Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
On Mon, Apr 06, 2009 at 11:41:57AM +0200, Lothar Behrens wrote:
 About the camera issue:
 
 I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack  
 or bus system ontop of it's
 case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't  
 know where it was but it was cool.
 
 Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts  
 in the inner housing to connect
 the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)?

   But how will you get the image pixels across to the Neo? There has been
some discussion about this on the hardware list, starting with the message
Weird hardware mod ??? back in January. To sum it up:

1) USB. There are many USB webcams available, but the difficulty is finding
one that works well on a USB 1.1 bus, because USB 2.0 is fast enough that
the cameras can simply dump the image across the cable with little or no
buffering in the camera. So most cameras won't have enough buffer space to
hold a good still image, and for the same reason also don't have the
buffer space needed for any of the good video compression codecs.

2) A generic image sensor interface with I2C for control and 8-bit parallel
port for data transfer. Example camera chip:

https://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8668

The options:

  2a) The Glamo has an unused camera interface, even with all the important
  pins connected to a resistor network, but the documentation is under NDA.

  2b) Roll your own somehow. The SC32442B has lots of unused GPIO - e.g.
  most of the LCD interface - but the ones that appear to be connected to
  somewhere accessible are scattered all over the place in register space.

rant index=1
It would have been a lot easier if the SC32442B camera interface pins hadn't
been frittered away for GPIO assignments that could just as well have been
served by the pins of the unused LCD interface instead. Even if you don't
want to use them for a camera, the 13 of them are nicely lumped together in
GPIO port J. They would have been fine for many projects.
/rant

rant index=2
Of the only two external DMA request pins, one is a dead end and the
other one is connected to the GPS as a simple output. Again lots of other
less valuable GPIO pins are available for such purposes.
/rant

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-11 Thread Steve Mosher


arne anka wrote:
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
 development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is  
 not a successor to the GTA02.
 
 i never said, it has to be a successor to gta02.
 the only other phone in the pipeline had the name gta03 and its  
 development has stopped. period.
There other phones in the   pipeline
Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
different target markets.  Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.

I can detail these, each of which is in a different stage of the 
product development pipeline, each has various pre conditions that need 
to be met before they can proceed to the next stage of development, but 
see my comments below about the argument clinic.



 
 
 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.
I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements  
 to existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what  
 you
 think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).
 
 
 this is merely hairsplitting (and, no offense, just because you think i am  
 wrong does not mean you are right), but here goes:
 one or more of the following
 
 - newer/better hardware
  See above.
 - improved functionality (f ex wrt standby time, power consumption)
I believe that OM2009 slated for release in the June time frame has a 
good chance of showing improved functionality. One Issue with OM2009
( the paroli work) was that it catered for differences between the GTA02 
and GTA03. The design was targeted at GTA03 and utilized certain features
( like a hardware volume button) that were not present on GTA02. With 
the demise of GTA03 the design becomes more focused and I would assume
more easy to execute and test.
 - different device
See above

 
 i am sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of  
 development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it serve?
 i said it how i see it and so far no information has convinced me that i  
 am wrong here.

why define terms before an Argument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  So to answer your question. Defining development up front (i am 
sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of
  development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it 
serve?)  Serves a very important purpose. It sets the conditions under 
which parties would admit they were wrong or that their beliefs were 
falsified. It forms the basis of having a rational debate. everything 
else is just naysaying.

 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-10 Thread Lalo Martins
quoth Andrés Calderón as of Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:36:39 -0500:
 Slashdotted again: Openmoko Phone Not Dead After All
 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/09/220244

Thanks Pat and Steve!

best,
   Lalo Martins
-- 
  Now go and make your dreams inevitable.
  http://lalomartins.info/
GNU: never give up freedom  http://www.gnu.org/


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-09 Thread Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka wrote:
  Die Entwicklung der Mobiltelefone wird eingestellt
  Development of mobile phones stopped
 
  big topic (many people don't read more)
  Openmoko gibt freie Handy-Entwicklung auf
  Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones
 
  In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
 
 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

   I think you've just given a very good example of why the GTA0x naming had
to be abandonned. If even people who read Openmoko mailing lists daily get
it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is not a
successor to the GTA02.

 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.

   I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements to
existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what you
think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-09 Thread Andrés Calderón
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
r...@sygehus.dk wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka wrote:
  Die Entwicklung der Mobiltelefone wird eingestellt
  Development of mobile phones stopped
 
  big topic (many people don't read more)
  Openmoko gibt freie Handy-Entwicklung auf
  Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones
 
  In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.

 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

   I think you've just given a very good example of why the GTA0x naming had
 to be abandonned. If even people who read Openmoko mailing lists daily get
 it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
 development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is not a
 successor to the GTA02.

 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.

   I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements to
 existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what you
 think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).

 --
 Rask Ingemann Lambertsen
 Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year

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Slashdotted again: Openmoko Phone Not Dead After All
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/09/220244

Andrés Calderón
Cel: +57 (300) 275 3666
Email: andres.calde...@emqbit.com
Web:www.emqbit.com

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-09 Thread Kosa
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andrés Calderón escribió:

 Slashdotted again: Openmoko Phone Not Dead After All
 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/09/220244
 
 Andrés Calderón

:)

Kosa

- - Un mundo mejor es posible -
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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JpgAmQEwexdRanTeuVwJ+pQbDgzbdQLg
=6vdM
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-08 Thread Fernando Martins
Steve Mosher wrote:
 Like I said, if it bleeds, it leeds.


 When you have a major announcement such as seans you have two options:

 1. Try to control the press response beforehand. Brief the press 
 beforehand, do a press release, release an official statement on the
 same day as the event. A controlled blast.

 2. Drop that bombshell,  some of the press will get it wrong, and then
 use that opportunity.

   
I gave IT support for many years to a PR department for a big local 
government and I learned it's hard anyway to control what the press 
publishes - sensational always sells and when reporters listen, a) 
they already have a bias towards sensational, b) they know they have to 
read between the lines anyway and guess the dirty hidden secret. It's 
amazing how often they guess the truth when being told a lie and how 
often they get it wrong when being told the truth. Since most times they 
are told the truth, they get it wrong too often. So, I don't believe 
there is a guarantee that your option 1 would work better anyway.

Bad publicity is always good publicity, if you (can) act on it properly.

Fernando

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Michael Tansella
On Tuesday 07 April 2009 00:24:34 Steve Mosher wrote:
 production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address
 that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production
 continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that
 we can focus
 on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things.
 Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like
 a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain
 available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009)
 as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner.
 That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03.

I think the press didn't understand the intention of Sean Moss-Pultz at Open 
Expo. If I google openmoko I met many wrong topics:

The pages are in german but the messages are:
Openmoko stops development of free smartphones.
Linux smartphone openmoko failed
Project Freerunner will not be continued

on chip.de (03.04.2009) they even say: 
after Neo 1973 there will be no more Openmoko smartphone, they even claim to 
know Plan B is a navigation system

http://www.silicon.de/mittelstand/0,39038986,41002613,00/aus+fuer+linux_handy+openmoko.htm
http://www.chip.de/news/OpenMoko-Aus-fuer-Linux-Handys_35990484.html
http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902

It's really annoying to read this. But I am happy to see that where it was 
possible the community has commented  the articles. Anyway it doesn't put a 
good light on Openmoko. 

Michael

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Steve Mosher
If it bleeds, it leeds.

I'll alert PR to these publications and we will get the story right.

Until then the community should just pound on them. An Army of Davids.
Comment, link to seans video, link to my Video.

Steve



Michael Tansella wrote:
 On Tuesday 07 April 2009 00:24:34 Steve Mosher wrote:
 production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address
 that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production
 continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that
 we can focus
 on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things.
 Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like
 a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain
 available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009)
 as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner.
 That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03.
 
 I think the press didn't understand the intention of Sean Moss-Pultz at Open 
 Expo. If I google openmoko I met many wrong topics:
 
 The pages are in german but the messages are:
 Openmoko stops development of free smartphones.
 Linux smartphone openmoko failed
 Project Freerunner will not be continued
 
 on chip.de (03.04.2009) they even say: 
 after Neo 1973 there will be no more Openmoko smartphone, they even claim 
 to 
 know Plan B is a navigation system
 
 http://www.silicon.de/mittelstand/0,39038986,41002613,00/aus+fuer+linux_handy+openmoko.htm
 http://www.chip.de/news/OpenMoko-Aus-fuer-Linux-Handys_35990484.html
 http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902
 
 It's really annoying to read this. But I am happy to see that where it was 
 possible the community has commented  the articles. Anyway it doesn't put a 
 good light on Openmoko. 
 
 Michael
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Fernando Martins
Steve Mosher wrote:
 And you are right the community can help:
  1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
  2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
 spreading the word.
  you get the idea.
My biggest itch was the frustration of getting a phone which, at that 
time, was not yet, say, a smooth phone, and still today has some rough 
edges, depending on distribution of course. I think this common 
experience is now acknowledged as what is hurting more the FR (leading 
to the slashdot post, but I'm also sure it can succeed and your recent 
posts are very convincing to me).

Although I'm a programmer (C, Python), right now I can only spare a few 
hours a week which makes it difficult for me to be effective. Any 
suggestion how to best put my small resources at use? How much 
investment would it be needed to work on phone specific functions? I 
know this is the bazaar, but I miss a bit the cathedral to be more 
focused and effective. A todo list, who's doing what, change logs,... 
What's the status of FSO?? Maybe I have to explore better but there is a 
lot of info how there, spread all over, and too often not up to date. 
Working on documentation is also fine for me, but what is the most 
needed to choose from?

Fernando

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread arne anka
 http://www.silicon.de/mittelstand/0,39038986,41002613,00/aus+fuer+linux_handy+openmoko.htm

i don't know this site ...

 http://www.chip.de/news/OpenMoko-Aus-fuer-Linux-Handys_35990484.html

but chip is basically the yellow press of it -- i wouldn't hang a dog for  
anything they write.

 http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902

well, that's more or less what i understood so far.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Michael Tansella
  http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902

 well, that's more or less what i understood so far.


Die Entwicklung der Mobiltelefone wird eingestellt
Development of mobile phones stopped

big topic (many people don't read more)
Openmoko gibt freie Handy-Entwicklung auf
Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones

In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread arne anka
 Die Entwicklung der Mobiltelefone wird eingestellt
 Development of mobile phones stopped

 big topic (many people don't read more)
 Openmoko gibt freie Handy-Entwicklung auf
 Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones

 In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.

so?
phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread rixed
-[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ]
  Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones
 
  In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
 
 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in the
future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go for the
open hair dryer! :-)).

When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more support
in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Marcel
Am Tuesday 07 April 2009 14:00:04 schrieb ri...@happyleptic.org:
 -[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ]

   Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones
  
   In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
 
  so?
  phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.

 The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in
 the future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go
 for the open hair dryer! :-)).

With wireless mp3 streaming and anti-noise (Gegenschall in german) to make 
it completely silent!

--
marcel

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread The Rasterman
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:00:04 +0200 ri...@happyleptic.org said:

 -[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ]
   Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones
  
   In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
  
  so?
  phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 
 The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in the
 future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go for the
 open hair dryer! :-)).
 
 When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
 support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?

because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
company stops its entire development of new products in a product line... in
fact its ONLY product that is publically known (development meaning the next
improved version) it does make new. it matters. it is the same as is nokia
stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead. that'd make
news!. :) these things  create a life of their own - if they are correct or
not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as possible.
sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are revenue. if half
the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would have a
pretty boring media. :)


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread rakshat hooja

 (go
  for the open hair dryer! :-)).

 With wireless mp3 streaming and anti-noise (Gegenschall in german) to
 make
 it completely silent!


It will only have wireless Ogg streaming by default. You will have to opkg
install libmad (via wifi ssh connection) to get wireless MP3 going!

Rakshat






 --
 marcel

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also a very feature rich browser.
www.firefox.com
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Marcel
Am Tuesday 07 April 2009 14:22:43 schrieb rakshat hooja:
  (go
 
   for the open hair dryer! :-)).
 
  With wireless mp3 streaming and anti-noise (Gegenschall in german) to
  make
  it completely silent!

 It will only have wireless Ogg streaming by default. You will have to opkg
 install libmad (via wifi ssh connection) to get wireless MP3 going!

Who needs mp3 anyway, technically, ogg is the better codec :D

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread David Reyes Samblas Martinez
2009/4/7 Marcel tan...@googlemail.com:
 Am Tuesday 07 April 2009 14:22:43 schrieb rakshat hooja:
  (go
 
   for the open hair dryer! :-)).
 
  With wireless mp3 streaming and anti-noise (Gegenschall in german) to
  make
  it completely silent!

 It will only have wireless Ogg streaming by default. You will have to opkg
 install libmad (via wifi ssh connection) to get wireless MP3 going!

 Who needs mp3 anyway, technically, ogg is the better codec :D

Silent but with  an ogg file under creative commons with an authentic
hairdrying sound in full stereo 196Kbs

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http://www.tuxbrain.com
Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread rixed
  When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
  support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?
 
 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product line...

Yes. But as a user, I would be more saddened if Sean had annouced that gta03
was just around the corner and would be so different from the previous products
that all support for those would be discontinued.

I may sound old, but I think that the FR hardware (as well as the n810
hardware for that matter) is more than enough, and the inovation must now comes
from the software part. The phone downsides are not in the hardware, so let's
settle here and improve the software.

Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Evgeniy Karyakin
2009/4/7 arne anka openm...@ginguppin.de:
 Die Entwicklung der Mobiltelefone wird eingestellt
 Development of mobile phones stopped

 big topic (many people don't read more)
 Openmoko gibt freie Handy-Entwicklung auf
 Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones

 In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.

 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.

   You understand it and all^Wmost of the people following our
maillists, but still...
 big topic (many people don't read more)

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Eildert Groeneveld
On Tuesday 07 April 2009, ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 I may sound old, but I think that the FR hardware (as well as the n810
 hardware for that matter) is more than enough, and the inovation must now 
 comes
 from the software part. The phone downsides are not in the hardware, so let's
 settle here and improve the software.
 
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.
sadly enough, that is indeed the situation. What would OM do with new hardware?
Another piece with great promise and no delivery. If we look at what has 
happened
since the release of the FR about a year ago, we have to acknowlegde that not 
much has improved as far as usability of the phone goes. Right, there are 
plenty of
new distros but not one that is solid as far as the use as phone goes.
Basically the same applies to applications.
Improvements do not come regularly as they come for instance in current
betas elsewhere (like ubuntu), where things get fixed in the distr and not as 
workarounds. I know OM is not ubuntu or debian. But here things are not going
well with little indication that the situation may improve.

But then: it saves on the phone bill...

end of rant

greetings nonetheless

Eildert

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Nelson Castillo
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:11 AM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
(cut)
 stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead. that'd 
 make
 news!. :) these things  create a life of their own - if they are correct or
 not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as possible.
 sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are revenue. if half
 the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would have a
 pretty boring media. :)

It's all about getting our attention. Everyday I'm more afraid of
reading the news. I guess the press release will help. Anyway, here's
another article. LinuxDevices articles are usually better.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8568412362.html

Now I bet a candy this one will not reach slashdot's frontpage :-)

N.-

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 07.04.2009 um 14:11 schrieb Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman):


 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of  
 them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product  
 line... in
 fact its ONLY product that is publically known (development meaning  
 the next
 improved version) it does make new. it matters. it is the same as is  
 nokia
 stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead.  
 that'd make
 news!. :) these things  create a life of their own - if they are  
 correct or
 not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as  
 possible.
 sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are  
 revenue. if half
 the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would  
 have a
 pretty boring media. :)

That's what was jumping around in my brain. It's lke the german  
sensation focused Bild newspaper :-)

Lothar

-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread xChris

hm..

In case you missed it, the article from the register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/06/openmoko/
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Slashdotted-tp2587049p2600221.html
Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Shawn Rutledge
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:34 AM,  ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.

I agree.  If the GTA03 was going to be less capable anyway, we can
live without it.  It's too bad having to put up with the Glamo, but oh
well.

How much longer can GTA02's remain in production?  Any impending part
obsolescence to worry about?

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Steve Mosher


Fernando Martins wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 And you are right the community can help:
  1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
  2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
 spreading the word.
  you get the idea.
 My biggest itch was the frustration of getting a phone which, at that 
 time, was not yet, say, a smooth phone, and still today has some rough 
 edges, depending on distribution of course. I think this common 
 experience is now acknowledged as what is hurting more the FR (leading 
 to the slashdot post, but I'm also sure it can succeed and your recent 
 posts are very convincing to me)
 
 Although I'm a programmer (C, Python), right now I can only spare a few 
 hours a week which makes it difficult for me to be effective. Any 
 suggestion how to best put my small resources at use? How much 
 investment would it be needed to work on phone specific functions? I 
 know this is the bazaar, but I miss a bit the cathedral to be more 
 focused and effective. A todo list, who's doing what, change logs,... 
 What's the status of FSO?? Maybe I have to explore better but there is a 
 lot of info how there, spread all over, and too often not up to date. 
 Working on documentation is also fine for me, but what is the most 
 needed to choose from?
  What I would do is get in contact with the folks working on a specific 
distribution ( SHR for example) or specific piece of infrastructure
Paroli, tichey,FSO, kernel and ask them these questions. The lack of a 
todo list and the lack of focused development has also been a 
frustration for me. It means development happens like an untended garden
grows. But look what grew that we never imagined.
 
 Fernando

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Steve Mosher
Like I said, if it bleeds, it leeds.


When you have a major announcement such as seans you have two options:

1. Try to control the press response beforehand. Brief the press 
beforehand, do a press release, release an official statement on the
same day as the event. A controlled blast.

2. Drop that bombshell,  some of the press will get it wrong, and then
use that opportunity.

In my mind the community had earned the right to be the first to know.
So, I picked option 2. Let Sean tell the community first and then I will
go out and correct any misunderstanding. Explaining our position FIRST 
on the community list, and then to the press and the rest of the world.



Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:00:04 +0200 ri...@happyleptic.org said:
 
 -[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ]
 Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones

 In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in the
 future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go for the
 open hair dryer! :-)).

 When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
 support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?
 
 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product line... in
 fact its ONLY product that is publically known (development meaning the next
 improved version) it does make new. it matters. it is the same as is nokia
 stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead. that'd 
 make
 news!. :) these things  create a life of their own - if they are correct or
 not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as possible.
 sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are revenue. if half
 the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would have a
 pretty boring media. :)
 
 

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Marcel
Am Tuesday 07 April 2009 20:14:18 schrieb Steve Mosher:
 Fernando Martins wrote:
  Steve Mosher wrote:
  And you are right the community can help:
   1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
   2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
  spreading the word.
   you get the idea.
 
  My biggest itch was the frustration of getting a phone which, at that
  time, was not yet, say, a smooth phone, and still today has some rough
  edges, depending on distribution of course. I think this common
  experience is now acknowledged as what is hurting more the FR (leading
  to the slashdot post, but I'm also sure it can succeed and your recent
  posts are very convincing to me)
 
  Although I'm a programmer (C, Python), right now I can only spare a few
  hours a week which makes it difficult for me to be effective. Any
  suggestion how to best put my small resources at use? How much
  investment would it be needed to work on phone specific functions? I
  know this is the bazaar, but I miss a bit the cathedral to be more
  focused and effective. A todo list, who's doing what, change logs,...
  What's the status of FSO?? Maybe I have to explore better but there is a
  lot of info how there, spread all over, and too often not up to date.
  Working on documentation is also fine for me, but what is the most
  needed to choose from?

   What I would do is get in contact with the folks working on a specific
 distribution ( SHR for example) or specific piece of infrastructure
 Paroli, tichey,FSO, kernel and ask them these questions. The lack of a
 todo list and the lack of focused development has also been a
 frustration for me. It means development happens like an untended garden
 grows. But look what grew that we never imagined.

What would be useful and what even non-coders can (partially) do: Updating and 
editing wiki pages to reflect the most recent development.

--
Marcel

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Steve Mosher


ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
 support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?
 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product line...
 
 Yes. But as a user, I would be more saddened if Sean had annouced that gta03
 was just around the corner and would be so different from the previous 
 products
 that all support for those would be discontinued.
 
 I may sound old, but I think that the FR hardware (as well as the n810
 hardware for that matter) is more than enough, and the inovation must now 
 comes
 from the software part. The phone downsides are not in the hardware, so let's
 settle here and improve the software.
 From one perspective because FR is open you really don't have an EOL. 
unlike closed products. yes, there will come a day when certain parts
are not available, but solving that problem is much more manageable
than an entire new design.
 
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Steve Mosher


Shawn Rutledge wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:34 AM,  ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.
 
 I agree.  If the GTA03 was going to be less capable anyway, we can
 live without it.  It's too bad having to put up with the Glamo, but oh
 well.
  We continue to look at a glamoectomy;
 
 How much longer can GTA02's remain in production?  Any impending part
 obsolescence to worry about?
  I would hazard that we see no issues through the end of 2009. If a part
goes out of production, then you have a 'grey market' that lasts for
some while. As the grey market drains you ordinarily would look to do
a redesign. For example, remove glamo and switch GSM chips. That just
an example folks so don't start down the path of defining GTA02+


 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-07 Thread Anthony Clearn
http://ostatic.com/blog/openmoko-steps-back-re-evaluates-road-ahead___
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steve Mosher wrote:

  Good comments All.
 
  Let me inline some answers/explanations.
 
  Lothar Behrens wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
  you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
  You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would
you
  hit the compile button?

Yes, this pretty much true, and you have to hit the button in time, or
so some the package in that make might phase out (like GTA01 PMU
PCF50606), and then you have spent another run of money to enable the
make button hit-able till mass production again.

  So what's the result if you don't use a waterfall model in
  hardware development. Whats the cost if you find a requirements defect
  or a design defect ( glamo? )when you do that prototype run? 50K
  minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy?
  ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI. And
  see my comments below about design and diving into peanut butter.
 

Werner just replied, maybe he could share more about his painful direct
contact experience with chip vendor  ;)

In hardware, specification/datasheet is not always correct (or always
not correct). People may found a lot interesting component datasheet
with powerful function (the dream chip) could solve specific design
problem, but when OM direct contact local distributor, following
scenario always happens:

* the chip never put mass production before, or we are the only user
interested that chip, need bare with long lead-time and bad payment deal

* the chip specific model we want not manufactured yet

* the chip specific function not work, or could not work stability, even
the datasheet

* Our quantities (market size) too small, ignore us (this is better
case, we sometimes got already married with some solution then after a
while, vendor ask for divorce  ;)  )

OM might have other internal issues, but external hardware game rules
tough as well. I don't think other company could really open hardware
not only legal issue (design specification with customer/contract with
telcom) but they got Open mind set to solve open hardware related
process issue like OM done before.

  or capacitive, keyboard or touch.-- ALL signs to me of a lack of
  appreciation for the complexity and cost involved in doing hardware. I
  got a hammer your problem must be a nail. I'll give you

And each component we have to verify it's hardware functionality and
compatibility with Open source, and most of time we have to spent extra
resource to build a full GPL'ed driver if vendor only have proprietary
Windows or some binary vendor version.

This also cause the difficulty when verification hardware in time,
because we need build our own driver to test vendor's hardware. Usually
only hardware vendor could have 1 or 2 FAE port driver for us, and with
our latest kernel and open policy (release driver early even before
product manufactured).

  and energy is spent on this solution In the end, marketing looks at
  that and says who took the fucking camera out! that's not an actual
  example, but you get the idea.

Yes, freeze idea and snapshot it in time is art of products  ;)

  Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
  In one sense this is trivally true. hardware development is
  inherently collaborative. But I suppose you mean is it possible
  to do it in an open fashion. It maybe. But if the requirements process
  and design process is not rigorous and well defined you end up
  with expensive implementation problems. And if you don't have team
  consensus, then it's very problematic. Forking software is easy.
  Forking hardware is forking hard. The best example I can use is
  forking ASIC design. You can do a big chip with lots of functionality
  and then fork off 'defeatured' versions, but that forking needs to
  be designed in.and it may come with a cost. the same holds true
  for modular hardware designs. what's easy with lego blocks aint so
  trivial when it comes to EE design.
 

As describe above, some of the chip/module may not look pretty real
world as pdf does. And component have supply issue, you never knows you
are the only one buying the really crap or not until you put into mass
production.

Using S3C6410 as example, you never sure which version will put into
mass production for sure or which version will phase out in next 6
months, unless you direct contact with the vendor/distributor, and got
the update in time. It's hard to explain: sorry, your last 6 months
software plan won't work because vendor's business plan suddenly
canceled due to another their BIG customer want go another direction.

seems my reply via other mail account fail, so I use this one instead my
personal as I should ;)

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu)

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Risto H. Kurppa
I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
hair-straightener with WLAN :)

r


-- 
| risto h. kurppa
| risto at kurppa dot fi
| http://risto.kurppa.fi

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
no i didnt upload that video. I relented today and got a youtube account
to upload my video, so I'm still fumbling around with youtube.


Kosa wrote:
 Thanks fo that.
 
 Just a recomendation. I don't know know if you yourself (hope that's well 
 written since
 english is not my first language) upload that video, but I think it could be 
 a 
 good idea to
 rename it so it includes openmoko on the title. It wuld be easier to find 
 for 
 those who
 are not on the list, but have heard about OM.
 
 Kosa
 
 - Un mundo mejor es posible -
 
 Steve Mosher escribió:
 Thanks Anthony.

 For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
 or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
 is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
 fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
 and find a way to involve the community more in its development.

 inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments.
 stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official
 comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation
 someone commented that our approach to open business was the most 
 radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all
 of us.

 Seans video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxIfeature=PlayListp=96FB31DA6E4012DAindex=1

 I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview.

 Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press.


 During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the 
 Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those 
 events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two 
 major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market 
 and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new 
 open device.
 The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market 
 finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. 
 After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never 
 dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in 
 additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their 
 software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed 
 the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of 
 Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, 
 and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop 
 for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, 
 over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in 
 this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing 
 compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; 
 Open software.
  At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us 
 the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the 
 past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll 
 take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background 
 behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things:
 1. Our successes.
 2. Our mistakes.
 3. Our challenges
 It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to 
 assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first 
 developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. 
 Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and 
 distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their 
 own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as 
 follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open 
 multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we 
 identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a 
 tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We 
 also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something 
 that could be easily changed or patched.
 Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the 
 embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had 
 to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were 
 essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of 
 FreeRunner; Development of a follow on phone, the GTA03; and development 
 of project “B”. From a resources standpoint we could pick any two. Given 
 the traction we see in the embedded space and given our passionate 
 commitment to current FreeRunner owners and developers it was easy to 
 pick that project. Nine months after launching FreeRunner with 
 tremendous support from the community the product is coming into its own 
 with a diverse set of distributions that run on it, from android to 
 debian.  Then comes the choice between project “B” and the GTA03.
 There were two paths:
 A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03
 B: Fulfill our promises on 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
Hey tony!

好朋友

Glad to see your comments.

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.

 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,
 I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
 you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
 You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
 hit the compile button?
 
 Yes, this pretty much true, and you have to hit the button in time, or
 so some the package in that make might phase out (like GTA01 PMU
 PCF50606), and then you have spent another run of money to enable the
 make button hit-able till mass production again.
 
 So what's the result if you don't use a waterfall model in
 hardware development. Whats the cost if you find a requirements defect 
 or a design defect ( glamo? )when you do that prototype run? 50K 
 minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy?
 ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI. And
 see my comments below about design and diving into peanut butter.

 
 Werner just replied, maybe he could share more about his painful direct
 contact experience with chip vendor ;)
 
 In hardware, specification/datasheet is not always correct (or always
 not correct). People may found a lot interesting component datasheet
 with powerful function (the dream chip) could solve specific design
 problem, but when OM direct contact local distributor, following
 scenario always happens:
 
 * the chip never put mass production before, or we are the only user
 interested that chip, need bare with long lead-time and bad payment deal
 
 * the chip specific model we want not manufactured yet
 
 * the chip specific function not work, or could not work stability, even
 the datasheet
 
 * Our quantities (market size) too small, ignore us (this is better
 case, we sometimes got already married with some solution then after a
 while, vendor ask for divorce ;) )
 
 OM might have other internal issues, but external hardware game rules
 tough as well. I don't think other company could really open hardware
 not only legal issue (design specification with customer/contract with
 telcom) but they got Open mind set to solve open hardware related
 process issue like OM done before.

  Yes. I think one of the challenges that some people really dont 
understand very well are all these little nagging details.having worked 
for a big company I'm just used to going in and getting the parts
I needed when I needed them. In 11 years there were only a few cases
were I had to go begging for parts.. RAM on the VoodooII from silcon
magic,  and DDR memory on the Nv10 I think from infineon.. oh and 1.8 
toshiba drives  after the ipod shipped, bastards.. ah and tantalum caps
once or twice.

 or capacitive, keyboard or touch.-- ALL signs to me of a lack of 
 appreciation for the complexity and cost involved in doing hardware. I 
 got a hammer your problem must be a nail. I'll give you
 
 And each component we have to verify it's hardware functionality and
 compatibility with Open source, and most of time we have to spent extra
 resource to build a full GPL'ed driver if vendor only have proprietary
 Windows or some binary vendor version.
 
 This also cause the difficulty when verification hardware in time,
 because we need build our own driver to test vendor's hardware. Usually
 only hardware vendor could have 1 or 2 FAE port driver for us, and with
 our latest kernel and open policy (release driver early even before
 product manufactured).
 
 and energy is spent on this solution In the end, marketing looks at 
 that and says who took the fucking camera out! that's not an actual 
 example, but you get the idea.
 
 Yes, freeze idea and snapshot it in time is art of products ;)


 
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 In one sense this is trivally true. hardware development is
 inherently collaborative. But I suppose you mean is it possible
 to do it in an open fashion. It maybe. But if the requirements process
 and design process is not rigorous and well defined you end up
 with expensive implementation problems. And if you don't have team 
 consensus, then it's very problematic. Forking software is easy.
 Forking hardware is forking hard. The best example I can use is
 forking ASIC design. You can do a big chip with lots of functionality
 and then fork off 'defeatured' versions, but that forking needs to
 be designed in.and it may come with a cost. the same holds true
 for modular hardware designs. what's easy with lego blocks aint so
 trivial when it comes to EE design.

 
 As describe above, some of the chip/module may not look pretty real
 world as pdf does. And component have supply issue, you never knows you
 are the only one buying the really crap or not until you put into mass
 production.
 
 Using S3C6410 as example, you never sure which version will put into
 mass production for sure or which version will phase out in next 6
 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
Thanks Risto.

  It really is a function of the sharpened focus of the company. In my 
particular case, if we back up to the september october time frame
I was working on doing the requirements and specs for the GTA04 with
joerg, looking at the glamoetctomy with werner, Doing FR stuff and 
project B. So now I have a much clearer focus and ability to tend to 
community matters.

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)
 
 r
 
 

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

Hair straightener required.

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)
 
 r
 
 

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread David Reyes Samblas Martinez
I finally see your face :),  I also add great voice
Great excerpt of what's going on there in OM  thanks steve.
As Risto sais way to go :)

2009/4/6 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

 Hair straightener required.

 Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)

 r



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http://www.tuxbrain.com
Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Robin Paulson
2009/4/6 Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de:
 About the camera issue:

 I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack
 or bus system ontop of it's
 case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't
 know where it was but it was cool.

 Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts
 in the inner housing to connect
 the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)?

excellent - i'd thought of the idea myself, via an internal usb hub
(from a disassembled, tiny 4-way usb hub i bought), as had a few
others i think.

there were a few tentative steps on the wiki some months back
concerning alternate cases, and this was one suggested idea

i just got back from a talk on reprap, so i'm itching to find
something i can make, and this would be a good start

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Robin Paulson
2009/4/6 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com:
 there were a few tentative steps on the wiki some months back
 concerning alternate cases, and this was one suggested idea

lots around here:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Hardware_ideas

expansion back looks like it covers your camera module

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Lothar Behrens
The expansion spacer is exactly what could be done for a hands on  
hobby electronics playground :-)
(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist/ExpansionSpacer)

What I mean with the replacement back case, is that you don't need to  
screw up the torx and add the
spacer. The end user don't like to fiddle with that. He simply wants  
to change the front and back covers
by ones with other color.

Adding a cam inside there would be doable without the risk of less  
stability of the back cover to keep
the howsing closed.

The issue is with the bigger or second battery. Does it still keep  
closed or could it easyly fall out due to
the wight.

Modifying the battery housing to be more likely a snap in for the  
bettery would solve this issue. With the
higher cover also a different battery could be used and with the snap  
in mechanics it will hopefully no problem
for the stability.

The contacts for the signals, whatever is used, should be similar to  
the battery contacts. Using any jack like the
USB on the outside is fiddling.

I know it by fiddling my car holder for the neo to connect the usb  
power cable.

For sample, we could use the connector aparatus like that from the SD  
card. Using a one side mounted plate with a
spring behind the other side the 'SD card' would propably savely  
'connect' to the SD card connector used as the jack.
(If the usual spring based connector pins like the battery aren't  
enough)

I don't know how stable the hinge would be as also the moving wires  
that goes to the cover's electronic, but it's worth a try.
The snap in mechanism of the cover will help adjusting the place where  
the jack must be.

Lothar

Am 06.04.2009 um 12:49 schrieb Robin Paulson:

 2009/4/6 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com:
 there were a few tentative steps on the wiki some months back
 concerning alternate cases, and this was one suggested idea

 lots around here:
 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Hardware_ideas

 expansion back looks like it covers your camera module

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Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Lothar Behrens
About the camera issue:

I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack  
or bus system ontop of it's
case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't  
know where it was but it was cool.

Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts  
in the inner housing to connect
the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)?

If an USB jack is mounted that way, such a 'pimp my neo with a cam  
module' would propably a gatget
one could buy. (Expected he want's a camera :-)

The usual neo looks as before when this replacement back case isn't  
used and when used, there may also
the possibility to add an extra battery.

I asked some time ago, if it would be practical to have a database  
application on the neo
(Database applications practical on mobile device ?).

There was an interest, that may also involved to have a camera option: 
http://www.thehumanjourney.net/
Joseph Reeves argued that it would be very interesting to contribute  
or evaluate. As he is a member at the above link,
the 'archaeology service' would propably benefit from such a cam  
gatget with extra battery, because they seem
to make much pictures in the archaeology work, thus they need also  
long live usability.

If the gatget didn't really be implementable with the USB connector in  
mind, it would be an option to connect with
bluetooth and only connect the extra battery.

Advantages:

One gatget to track GPS locations,
correlate directly the pictures with the GPS positions (I am  
struggling with my extra cam and the GPS traces),
propably add voice notes that are GPS correlated.

Development:

The standard back case, could be used to mod it as a first prototype.  
I have seen a post with pictures that show something
with an extra battery. (The second last picture from here: 
http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/gallery/views.php?start=20)
That could be done colleraborately. The bluetooth camera: 
http://digitalcameras.engadget.com/2006/04/02/kodaks-bluetooth-camera-module/

Design:

As thicker than one battery,
As thicker than a cam module,
As thicker than the supporting electronics.

Using BRLCAD could be an option to create a preview, when possible  
components with their sizes are choosen.

The database that may be the backend should be discussed separately. I  
am practicing the idea of model driven development and fast prototyping.
I have seen wxWidgtes on my neo, but not yet found the time to start  
porting my code to it :-(

But prototyping from a desktop would be possible for creating python  
CRUD applications at the end (code generation).

Lothar

Am 06.04.2009 um 10:29 schrieb David Reyes Samblas Martinez:

 I finally see your face :),  I also add great voice
 Great excerpt of what's going on there in OM  thanks steve.
 As Risto sais way to go :)

 2009/4/6 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

 Hair straightener required.

 Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread -  
 this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)

 r



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 -- 
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Lothar Behrens
I read the issue with removing the hole. The space in that 'hole'  
could be used as the
docking bay for extensions. Ok, the mic should somehow moved, or a  
'voicepipe' could
be used to direct the acustics.

A good starting point to use the space somehow useful.

Lothar

Am 06.04.2009 um 12:49 schrieb Robin Paulson:

 2009/4/6 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com:
 there were a few tentative steps on the wiki some months back
 concerning alternate cases, and this was one suggested idea

 lots around here:
 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Hardware_ideas

 expansion back looks like it covers your camera module

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Lalo Martins
This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through 
the blogosphere:
http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4214
which was picked up by Giz and Engadget:
http://i.gizmodo.com/5200285/openmoko-cancels-freerunner-the-original-
open-source-linux-phone
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/06/openmoko-freerunner-canceled-staff-
slashed/

I'd strongly recommend OpenMoko puts out a press release or something...

best,
   Lalo Martins
-- 
  So many of our dreams at first seem impossible,
   then they seem improbable, and then, when we
   summon the will, they soon become inevitable.
   -
  http://lalomartins.info/
GNU: never give up freedom  http://www.gnu.org/


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread arne anka
 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...

in what respect a mis-reportage?
that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half a  
line at the bottom ...

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Lalo Martins
quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:

 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...
 
 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...

The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner 
was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out, 
what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that 
production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want 
one, buzz or not)

best,
   Lalo Martins
-- 
  So many of our dreams at first seem impossible,
   then they seem improbable, and then, when we
   summon the will, they soon become inevitable.
   -
  http://lalomartins.info/
GNU: never give up freedom  http://www.gnu.org/


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread robert lazarski
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Lalo Martins lalo.mart...@gmail.com wrote:
 quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:

 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...

 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...

 The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner
 was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out,
 what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that
 production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want
 one, buzz or not)

 best,
                                               Lalo Martins

Talk is cheap. The GT03 was announced and canceled, a tentative A7
release was announced, canceled and replaced with a 5 point plan or
something , so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if neither the A7 nor
plan b happen at this point. You don't fire or create conditions for
the most important kernel / hardware / UI guys to leave if you have
growth in mind. Something new may happen, but IMHO its time to at
least consider that what you see is what you get.

The one thing for sure is that OM a company generally has a bad
reputation at this point with all this recent press - unfairly or not.
If they can overcome that image and also release new products with a
skeleton staff, then I'll be pleasantly surprised - like many of us,
I'd rather not have my time spent go down the tubes.

- R

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
  I'll ask Tully  OMs resident ME genius to have a look.
  A long while back when Joerg and I were doing the GTA04
  we had decided to use the GTA02 case (with mods) for the
  project and were playing with several camera Ideas. Tully
  is looking at that for me now ( I had some new ideas) so
  I'll ask him to have a look see at this stuff as well.

  Steve

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 About the camera issue:
 
 I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack  
 or bus system ontop of it's
 case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't  
 know where it was but it was cool.
 
 Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts  
 in the inner housing to connect
 the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)?
 
 If an USB jack is mounted that way, such a 'pimp my neo with a cam  
 module' would propably a gatget
 one could buy. (Expected he want's a camera :-)
 
 The usual neo looks as before when this replacement back case isn't  
 used and when used, there may also
 the possibility to add an extra battery.
 
 I asked some time ago, if it would be practical to have a database  
 application on the neo
 (Database applications practical on mobile device ?).
 
 There was an interest, that may also involved to have a camera option: 
 http://www.thehumanjourney.net/
 Joseph Reeves argued that it would be very interesting to contribute  
 or evaluate. As he is a member at the above link,
 the 'archaeology service' would propably benefit from such a cam  
 gatget with extra battery, because they seem
 to make much pictures in the archaeology work, thus they need also  
 long live usability.
 
 If the gatget didn't really be implementable with the USB connector in  
 mind, it would be an option to connect with
 bluetooth and only connect the extra battery.
 
 Advantages:
 
 One gatget to track GPS locations,
 correlate directly the pictures with the GPS positions (I am  
 struggling with my extra cam and the GPS traces),
 propably add voice notes that are GPS correlated.
 
 Development:
 
 The standard back case, could be used to mod it as a first prototype.  
 I have seen a post with pictures that show something
 with an extra battery. (The second last picture from here: 
 http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/gallery/views.php?start=20)
 That could be done colleraborately. The bluetooth camera: 
 http://digitalcameras.engadget.com/2006/04/02/kodaks-bluetooth-camera-module/
 
 Design:
 
 As thicker than one battery,
 As thicker than a cam module,
 As thicker than the supporting electronics.
 
 Using BRLCAD could be an option to create a preview, when possible  
 components with their sizes are choosen.
 
 The database that may be the backend should be discussed separately. I  
 am practicing the idea of model driven development and fast prototyping.
 I have seen wxWidgtes on my neo, but not yet found the time to start  
 porting my code to it :-(
 
 But prototyping from a desktop would be possible for creating python  
 CRUD applications at the end (code generation).
 
 Lothar
 
 Am 06.04.2009 um 10:29 schrieb David Reyes Samblas Martinez:
 
 I finally see your face :),  I also add great voice
 Great excerpt of what's going on there in OM  thanks steve.
 As Risto sais way to go :)

 2009/4/6 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

 Hair straightener required.

 Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread -  
 this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)

 r


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 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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 Lothar Behrens
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Fernando Martins
Steve Mosher wrote:
 Thanks Anthony.

 For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
 or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
 is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
 fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
 and find a way to involve the community more in its development.

   
I'm not a marketing guy, but I am somewhat surprised not to see more 
references about this aspect. There is talk about products and about 
methods. All that discussion on hardware development made it clear that 
OM needs to increase market or gain share to achieve economies of scale. 
I can understand that market aspects might not come to the front, but 
maybe the community could also help here.

 From another post I understand that you are also going to niche markets 
that need custom/open phones, which looks like a sensible approach. But 
could the GTA02 be made interesting to the general public to be sold 
together with a telecom subscription? if not, is there a GTA02+ that 
could do it?

I have the impression that people are already using the phones in many 
different ways. Some do it in obvious ways for them which might not be 
so obvious to the majority. How about collecting these use cases and see 
how you can grow the current specific FR market from here, or gain 
market share from the general phone market.

Regards,
Fernando


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread David Reyes Samblas Martinez
snip
 Talk is cheap.
snip
yeah robert Talk is cheap and moaning is even fun ,isn't it?
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Gerald A
Hi all,
I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
some good points here.

Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
we can make it work.

Lothar -- new comments are inline.

On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:



 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?



 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.


 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.


Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
it's something to think about.



 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.


 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module and indeed found one with a complete
 ARM based Linux stack. It would be much too expensive, but when having only
 the next planned GSM module that will appear in the phone, one could test it
 on a standard pc. Or even participate in GSM related development only.


I love the idea of being able to mock up hardware, as it lets the software
move forward too. But if our test platform can't be translated into a
suitable form factor, it might be a waste.


 I had an idea about my car radio. The idea came because I use my Neo to
 transmit music over bluetooth, then over a FM transmitter to the radio. This
 is bad quality.
 There are really much entusiasts building their own carPC in double DIN
 factor or similar - even small PC barebones. Why not equip it with a GSM
 module to become a real handsfree carPC + phone. They will benefit from such
 a module and propably participate in development.

 Open the development by also selling parts of a phone for the hobby
 electronics would increase the audience and the feedback.
 I don't know how this component has to be deliverded, but I think it must
 be compilant to some law.


The current phone stuff already passes those laws. Would it be possible to
adapt them, on the electronic side? I have no doubt. Steve or someone on the
OM side might be able to speak to the regulations issue.

Now, there are many people who like the idea of an open source phone, but
 I think that a lot of them assume it will be polished to the level that
 modern Linux distros are up to nowadays. And the truth is, the open linux
 phone isn't there yet.

 Now, these aren't impossible hurdles to climb, but they aren't going to be
 simple either.


 What I also think about, is why are there only PDF schematics available?

 I think there were other formats too, but that might have only been case
 design. My feeling is that OM isn't trying to be closed about hardware --
 but rather make some money selling it and be able to subsidize software
 development.


 Selling a mobile phone lab with components and the 

Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am Mo  6. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 I read the issue with removing the hole. The space in that 'hole'  
 could be used as the
 docking bay for extensions. Ok, the mic should somehow moved, or a  
 'voicepipe' could
 be used to direct the acustics.
 
 A good starting point to use the space somehow useful.
 

This unused space is part of GSM-ant design and it isn't that easy to simply 
build some electronics to fit in there without detuning whole RF-design 
and/or having nasty EMI-problems in the newly created addon.

/j


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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-06 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 06.04.2009 um 21:03 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:

 Am Mo  6. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 I read the issue with removing the hole. The space in that 'hole'
 could be used as the
 docking bay for extensions. Ok, the mic should somehow moved, or a
 'voicepipe' could
 be used to direct the acustics.

 A good starting point to use the space somehow useful.


 This unused space is part of GSM-ant design and it isn't that easy  
 to simply
 build some electronics to fit in there without detuning whole RF- 
 design
 and/or having nasty EMI-problems in the newly created addon.


Ahh ok. So beside this, a small sketch where addons could be placed  
would be helpfull
to not fall in that traps.

Are there save regions, say bottom layer to ground (HF shield) and SMD  
only on top of the board added?

Lothar

 /j

-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 06.04.2009 um 22:19 schrieb Max:

 so a switch to maemo ?


Why switching. It's an internet tablet, not really usable as a mobile  
phone - in my mind.

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Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Brad Midgley
Lothar

 Why switching. It's an internet tablet, not really usable as a mobile
 phone - in my mind.

nextgen maemo will have 3g.

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
  I have an official statement out.

   I'll get on the corrections asap

  steve.

  community! chime in. on these sites

Lalo Martins wrote:
 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through 
 the blogosphere:
 http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4214
 which was picked up by Giz and Engadget:
 http://i.gizmodo.com/5200285/openmoko-cancels-freerunner-the-original-
 open-source-linux-phone
 http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/06/openmoko-freerunner-canceled-staff-
 slashed/
 
 I'd strongly recommend OpenMoko puts out a press release or something...
 
 best,
Lalo Martins

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address 
that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production 
continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that 
we can focus
on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things.
Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like
a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain
available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009)
as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner.
That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03.

Lalo Martins wrote:
 quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:
 
 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...
 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...
 
 The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner 
 was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out, 
 what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that 
 production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want 
 one, buzz or not)
 
 best,
Lalo Martins

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
Hi bob.

  A couple points below. thanks for your continued interest.

robert lazarski wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Lalo Martins lalo.mart...@gmail.com wrote:
 quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:

 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...
 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...
 The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner
 was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out,
 what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that
 production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want
 one, buzz or not)

 best,
   Lalo Martins
 
 Talk is cheap. The GT03 was announced and canceled, 
As an open company we take great pains to disclose as much as possible.
Throughout the development of GTA03 when people asked me what it was
and when would it ship I took great pains to explain ( as did wolfgang)
that it may not ship at all. In closed companies they have closed 
caskets. For us its more like an irish wake. Every company I have ever 
worked for has had to kill products. usually we just take them out back 
and shoot them and never speak about it. But we have to talk about it.
First because we were open enough to talk about it when it was still in 
design, second because our commitment to openness demands it, and third
because others who want to create open companies can learn from our 
experience.



a tentative A7
 release was announced, canceled and replaced with a 5 point plan or
 something , 

The 5 points are conditions that must be met for me to release the A7
that are sitting comfortably in their boxes in the factory. The delay
caused by the factory being off for CNY is past. The final checks
on the image and ALSA states is done. Now I'm working with disty to
plan its entry into the market.


so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if neither the A7 nor
 plan b happen at this point.  You don't fire or create conditions for
 the most important kernel / hardware / UI guys to leave if you have
 growth in mind. Something new may happen, but IMHO its time to at
 least consider that what you see is what you get.

  It's exactly because we have growth in mind that we had to make the
cuts we did. the suicide path was to continue 3 projects when the 
resources available can only deliver on the two more modest projects.
here is how it works. You have 3 projects:
  1. FreeRunner: requires .5X
  2. Project B: requires X
  3. GTA03 requires 3X.

You have 2X resources. Pick your projects. If you pick door number 3, 
you have just picked failure. Couple that with these facts. #3 is
has no wifi and no GPS and costs 499. Looks pretty clear that if you
want growth you better do a little pruning. Is the growth path a 
straight line? nope. But if we set goals we have a chance of meeting
and then deliver, I'm confident that our unique experiment will draw
additional resources. At early stages growth is never funded by cash flow.

 
 The one thing for sure is that OM a company generally has a bad
 reputation at this point with all this recent press - unfairly or not.
 If they can overcome that image and also release new products with a
 skeleton staff, then I'll be pleasantly surprised - like many of us,
 I'd rather not have my time spent go down the tubes.


 
 - R
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher


Fernando Martins wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Thanks Anthony.

 For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
 or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
 is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
 fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
 and find a way to involve the community more in its development.


   
 I'm not a marketing guy, but I am somewhat surprised not to see more 
 references about this aspect. There is talk about products and about 
 methods. All that discussion on hardware development made it clear that 
 OM needs to increase market or gain share to achieve economies of scale. 
 I can understand that market aspects might not come to the front, but 
 maybe the community could also help here.
First and foremost I try to get the word out to the community. For that 
I try to talk about the engineering aspects of things, as best I can 
since I put my complier down years ago. Then I discuss the marketing 
aspects of things. Search my posts and you'll find the comments on 
marketing. yes, its true we need to increase market share. My job
is to size what I think is reasonable. To fund GTA03 I would have to
TRIPLE sales overnight. If you look at the economic drivers in our 
channel, basically it cash constrained at the inlet, you'll understand 
why I would not project a tripling of volume. Further, increasing the 
sales this much overnight would not even be feasible from a cash flow 
standpoint. It takes money to buy inventory and to market. So, I picked
a more modest growth projection. A projection based on our entry to the 
Embedded market. Thousands of developers who never even heard of us.
ramping to volume is only possible by a reallocation and yes de 
allocation of resources from certain areas. And you are right the 
community can help:
  1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
  2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
 spreading the word.
  you get the idea.
 
  From another post I understand that you are also going to niche markets 
 that need custom/open phones, which looks like a sensible approach. But 
 could the GTA02 be made interesting to the general public to be sold 
 together with a telecom subscription? if not, is there a GTA02+ that 
 could do it?
  The telecom play is a tough one.

  1. The tests you have to go through cost on the order of 700K
  2. Your CUSTOMER is really the product marketing manager of the telco.
 They are driven to monetize the 3G network they set up. They are
 not especially dedicated to open source as an ideal.

  The niche market play is one where we see the most traction. If I want 
to ramp to volume, I'm going to pick the hill where I have traction and
not the slippery slope of a telco play. Crawl, walk run.
 
 I have the impression that people are already using the phones in many 
 different ways. Some do it in obvious ways for them which might not be 
 so obvious to the majority. How about collecting these use cases and see 
 how you can grow the current specific FR market from here, or gain 
 market share from the general phone market.
Yup that's our impression and the plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

Our launch into these areas happened march 31st

WRT the general phone market, I'd say we are content to have the android 
distribution cover that demand. That effort is being carried out 
independently of us. I see that as pure upside business. In brazil for 
example, we see a market for 13 million android phones. Do I put this in 
my forecast? No. Will our business change overnight if it materializes?
yes.
 
 Regards,
 Fernando
 

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher


Gerald A wrote:
 Hi all,
 I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
 to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
 some good points here.
 
 Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
 have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
 we can make it work.
 
 Lothar -- new comments are inline.
 
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:
 

 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?

 
 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.

 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.
 
 
 Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
 production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
 kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
 translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
 consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
 the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
 available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
 concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
 it's something to think about.

  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.

 
 
 
 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.

 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module and indeed found one with a complete
 ARM based Linux stack. It would be much too expensive, but when having only
 the next planned GSM module that will appear in the phone, one could test it
 on a standard pc. Or even participate in GSM related development only.
 
 
 I love the idea of being able to mock up hardware, as it lets the software
 move forward too. But if our test platform can't be translated into a
 suitable form factor, it might be a waste.
YUP. Just to review the GTA03. At one stage the WIFI and GPS had to be 
removed because it didnt fit in the case. If thin is in, then using
a module is out, for the most part. How thin is thin? Typical marketing 
answer would be thinner than the iPhone but obviously some fat phones ship
 
 
 I had an idea about my car radio. The idea came because I use my Neo to
 transmit music over bluetooth, then over a FM transmitter to the radio. This
 is bad quality.
 There are really much entusiasts building their own carPC in double DIN
 factor or similar - even small PC barebones. Why not equip it with a GSM
 module to become a real handsfree carPC + phone. They will benefit from such
 a module and propably participate in development.
  On of our early partners, in fact, was designing such a carPC and 
wanted to use FR as a dev platform. Alas they demanded a different 
processor ( Intel) so that deal didnt go through.

 Open the development by also selling parts of a phone for the hobby
 electronics would increase the audience and the feedback.
 I don't know how this component has to be deliverded, but I think it must
 be compilant to some law.
 
 
 The current phone stuff already passes those laws. Would it be possible to
 adapt them, on the electronic side? I have no doubt. Steve or someone on the
 OM side might be able to speak to the regulations issue.
  You change the RFs ( antenna/circuits etc) and you have to recert.
  I'll have to take a closer look. I 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread robert lazarski
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:

 WRT the general phone market, I'd say we are content to have the android
 distribution cover that demand. That effort is being carried out
 independently of us. I see that as pure upside business. In brazil for
 example, we see a market for 13 million android phones. Do I put this in
 my forecast? No. Will our business change overnight if it materializes?
 yes.

I live in Brazil and I'd be curious to see how you generally could
come up with those numbers. Not doubting, just curious. Its a 200
million people country and my guess is there currently are not 13
million cell phones operating in the entire country that cost more
than the cheapest Andriod-based phone on the market. Even still, I
wish you luck.

- R

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Joseph Reeves
  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.

Steve, at the OpenExpo Sean refered to the Dash navigator as a
dashtraction from the serious business of Openmoko. How will Plan
B (which is presumably not a distraction but a means of improving ROI
for FIC) avoid becoming thought of as Dash2?

Thanks for your emails on the subject so far,

Joseph



2009/4/7 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:


 Gerald A wrote:
 Hi all,
 I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
 to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
 some good points here.

 Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
 have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
 we can make it work.

 Lothar -- new comments are inline.

 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:


 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?


 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.

 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.


 Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
 production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
 kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
 translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
 consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
 the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
 available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
 concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
 it's something to think about.

  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.




 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.

 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module and indeed found one with a complete
 ARM based Linux stack. It would be much too expensive, but when having only
 the next planned GSM module that will appear in the phone, one could test it
 on a standard pc. Or even participate in GSM related development only.


 I love the idea of being able to mock up hardware, as it lets the software
 move forward too. But if our test platform can't be translated into a
 suitable form factor, it might be a waste.
 YUP. Just to review the GTA03. At one stage the WIFI and GPS had to be
 removed because it didnt fit in the case. If thin is in, then using
 a module is out, for the most part. How thin is thin? Typical marketing
 answer would be thinner than the iPhone but obviously some fat phones ship


 I had an idea about my car radio. The idea came because I use my Neo to
 transmit music over bluetooth, then over a FM transmitter to the radio. This
 is bad quality.
 There are really much entusiasts building their own carPC in double DIN
 factor or similar - even small PC barebones. Why not equip it with a GSM
 module to become a real handsfree carPC + phone. They will benefit from such
 a module and propably participate in development.
  On of our early partners, in fact, was designing such a carPC and
 wanted to use FR as a dev platform. Alas they demanded a different
 processor ( Intel) so that deal didnt go through.

 Open the development by also selling parts of a phone for the hobby
 electronics would increase the audience and the feedback.
 I don't know how 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-06 Thread Steve Mosher
Hi Joseph,

  Your project and projects like yours were one of the principal 
motivations behind the decision to focus on FR. GTA03 as defined
would not have met your needs: no wifi, no GPS. Comments below
inlined address your other concerns

Joseph Reeves wrote:
  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.
 
 Steve, at the OpenExpo Sean refered to the Dash navigator as a
 dashtraction from the serious business of Openmoko. 
To be specific he said that Dash took 90% of our resources. That
forms the heart of the argument to characterize it as a distraction..
perhaps the better word would be DIVERSION.

How will Plan
 B (which is presumably not a distraction but a means of improving ROI
 for FIC) avoid becoming thought of as Dash2?
Project B is not a dash like diversion of resourse. The prototype 
engineering didnt even rise to half the level of a EVT run for a phone.
That's been paid for long ago. Sunk cost. So we have two choices for the
hardware team working on GTA03:

  A: let them continue and they run out of resources 1/3 the way through 
the project ensuring failure.
  B. Keep them relatively intact and have them work to cost down project
B and bring it to market. and then transition to a more well defined
GTA03.

Openmoko is not a part of FIC anymore we spun out in 2008.

Having said that, Project B, like all new category devices is a 
calculated risk. In my 11 years at Creative labs I did nothing but bring
new category products to market. It's hard, but it's not impossible.
Finishing GTA03 as it was defined, given our resources, was 
mathematically impossible. I dont know anything more distracting that 
trying to prove that 2+2=5. So, given the choice between what I know to 
be impossible and what I know to possible, I'll pick the possible 
everytime. so would you.
 
 Thanks for your emails on the subject so far,
 
 Joseph
 
 
 
 2009/4/7 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:

 Gerald A wrote:
 Hi all,
 I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
 to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
 some good points here.

 Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
 have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
 we can make it work.

 Lothar -- new comments are inline.

 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.

 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.

 Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
 production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
 kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
 translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
 consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
 the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
 available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
 concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
 it's something to think about.
  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.



 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have 
 been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while 
 we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.

 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Johny Tenfinger
It seems like plan B doesn't share anything with phones and... Linux ;(

2009/4/5, David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
 only add that replies are quite unfair to a any free project whatever
 it succeed or not.

 2009/4/5 David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
 Yes very sad wrong titular No More OpenMoko Phone  and very
 discorageus comentaries :(

 2009/4/5 robert lazarski robertlazar...@gmail.com:
 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240art_pos=2

 Not pretty. As someone who has been lurking on this list for 1 1/2
 years, patiently waiting to buy a phone but trying to avoid buzz fix
 parties if I could help it, I suppose its not surprising. On the
 positive side, I'll stick around to see what happens with plan b - if
 that is there's anyone left to develop it and its not vapor. I like
 the idea of Freerunner, just not its execution. I'd like to surprised
 though and see a turn around. And yes, I'll probably buy one that
 ships without hardware problems.

 - R

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 --
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!




 --
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Lothar Behrens
Hi,

I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
useless - I don't know. But anyway.

Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)

What is a open phone?

Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?

If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
person, why don't we do the same for
hardware?

Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
developed, but I virtually could
develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
for a rent to let one of the
team do outstanding tests.

Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?

There are many hobby projects around in the net. These are really not  
at a level as OpenMoko or in
general a device such as a mobile phone, but what is if we could get  
preproduced components such
as the gsm 'plugin board'?

I mean, if I am a crack in developing gsm stuff, but don't like to buy  
a complete phone for it, I probably buy
the gsm module, say, with an interface connectable anyhow to a PC.

What I also think about, is why are there only PDF schematics available?

I have only heared about the dash derivat of openmoko device. Is it  
because there is only a PDF available?

If it is possible to delegate hardware development tasks to the  
comunity why isn't it done yet?

So when also open up the real circuit 'source code' - the real CAD  
files, would it give the real goal - the open mobile phone - a real  
push?

Then if there are some results that have a chance to become a real  
'next' phone, a company like openmoko could
think about producing some prototypes. So the company has a reduced  
cost.

There is one really good electronics project: The internal debug board.

This is only one sample that there are hardware developers out there.  
Give them more food.

My education in 1987 till 1990, was electronics engineering. I do not  
any more practice in that area. So I stuck in some conflict
not to start any electronics projects, because I have the glue the  
project will be a one man show and keep a hobby project. But
if there would be a collerative project I could join, I propably  
would. And may it only getting more practice in laying out PCB boards
whose schematics other developers have created.

If that would be possible, then it would be a real open phone :-)

End of arsing around. Is there a potential to create a hardware  
development comunity?

To avoid that each individual will start its own variant we could  
using a vote system before any direction is done, say wich formfactor is
used, for sample.

Sean: This would propably help continue GTA3 development. The risk to  
produce it, would only invest some inspections of a new design
and doing integration tests. And even this could be donated.

Dont let a great idea die. Delegate hardware development activities if  
possible. We are a comunity.

Lothar

Am 05.04.2009 um 11:18 schrieb Johny Tenfinger:

 It seems like plan B doesn't share anything with phones and...  
 Linux ;(

 2009/4/5, David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
 only add that replies are quite unfair to a any free project whatever
 it succeed or not.

 2009/4/5 David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
 Yes very sad wrong titular No More OpenMoko Phone  and very
 discorageus comentaries :(

 2009/4/5 robert lazarski robertlazar...@gmail.com:
 http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240art_pos=2

 Not pretty. As someone who has been lurking on this list for 1 1/2
 years, patiently waiting to buy a phone but trying to avoid buzz  
 fix
 parties if I could help it, I suppose its not surprising. On the
 positive side, I'll stick around to see what happens with plan b  
 - if
 that is there's anyone left to develop it and its not vapor. I like
 the idea of Freerunner, just not its execution. I'd like to  
 surprised
 though and see a turn around. And yes, I'll probably buy one that
 ships without hardware problems.

 - R

 ___
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 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community




 --
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!




 --
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

 ___
 Openmoko community mailing list
 community@lists.openmoko.org
 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community


 ___
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 http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community


-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Joerg Reisenweber
Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,
 
 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
[...]
Hi Lothar,
nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw development 
Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.
Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in Eagle, and 
tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other half is a 
*close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys, the RF 
guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.
IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some layout task. 
Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in mind when 
creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.

for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by selling 
hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help EE guys in 
community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for production 
purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis with 
layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the guy 
who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You can't patch 
a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on 
hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen proto PCB 
done by anonymous community guys, without checking each and every trace and 
footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it inhouse 
from scratch.
Other companies tend to keep schematics closed to protect their IP, so we at 
OM at least don't want to give asian cloners a kickstart without adding *any* 
benefit for our customers.

best regards
jOERG


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Fernando Martins
David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote:
 only add that replies are quite unfair to a any free project whatever
 it succeed or not.

 2009/4/5 David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
   
 Yes very sad wrong titular No More OpenMoko Phone  and very
 discorageus comentaries :(
 

Listen, it's just one of those slashdot posts based on half-truths. 
Lamenting it does not help. Just address the truths in there and take 
the best out of it. Even bad publicity can be good. Make it play in your 
favor. This slashdot article could be a good opportunity to:

1) identify plain truths, plain falsities, half-truths/lies. Distinguish 
between technical (FR) and organisational issues (OM/community). This 
can be done by the community using a wiki page.

2) Acknowledge the negative organisational facts (I guess already done 
by OM). Fix it by:

a) providing reassurance by building on the achievements and positive 
facts;

b) providing an action plan dealing with organisational AND marketing 
aspects;

c) ask the community for feedback on the plan (being done?) and even ask 
for help with organisational and market aspects (the open project 
doesn't have to stop at the software aspects).

3) Provide a plan to address the technical aspects involving the 
community (being done?). Typically everyone wants to work on their own 
itches, but maybe there is room for a bit more coordination, e.g. by 
using cofundos to focus on specific areas that could help OM deliver the 
promises of an open and implicitly working phone.


Fernando


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 05.04.2009 um 18:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:

 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw  
 development
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.

I may read his post...


 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in  
 Eagle, and
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other  
 half is a
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys,  
 the RF
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.

It is indeed difficult. But otoh are many hw projects (http://opencores.org/ 
  or http://opencollector.org/ for sample),
or at least hw related.


 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some  
 layout task.
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in  
 mind when
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.


I don't speak about outsourcing. I have made similar experiences with  
outsourcing:

An EE project (motor control) should be outsourced, but the schematics  
were sent by faximile!
The result was about writing an application to compare the netlists to  
compare the then distinct
projects (different wire names and the like).

So don't split any EE project or work with different versions without  
a CVS or SVN!

But giving development boards or mobile phone development kits would  
be an option to
broaden the idea behind open mobile phone. Say, a GSM kit could be  
used for the carPC hobby
engineer. And there are really GSM modules sold by other companies. 
(http://www.gsm-modem.de/ 
)

Then you have the control about your pcb design, but propably broaden  
your product palette.

Not all developers need a complete telephone. But you could indeed get  
more value if the
'components' of a mobile device also spread the globe - as a  
development kit or separately.

 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by  
 selling
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help  
 EE guys in
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for  
 production
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis  
 with
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the  
 guy
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You  
 can't patch
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw  
 POV on
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen  
 proto PCB
 done by anonymous community guys, without checking each and every  
 trace and
 footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it  
 inhouse
 from scratch.

I don't mean that you grab the prototypes blindly for your use. But  
didn't you think, the comunity
will also help in hardware aspects?

Maybe the devkit could be coubled with a contest, who develops the  
best mod or addon. Or as an early preview
for developers of software (the display discussion for sample:  
Touchscreen Capacitive (was Re: OT: iPhone howto)).

Did someone yet really implemented drivers for a multitouch display?

Wouldn't it good to get one preassembled from OM to develop for it?

Therefore a kit would be good. Also selling kits for parts only.

Gerald: It is worth to publish the private post :-)


 Other companies tend to keep schematics closed to protect their IP,  
 so we at
 OM at least don't want to give asian cloners a kickstart without  
 adding *any*
 benefit for our customers.

Do you really think, they don't get any value just from the PDF version?
Time will tell us this.

Other companies think about using the same idea behind open source for  
hardware. It's because
of one big issue today: The technologie changes so fast, that  
individual development is too expensive.

Opencores as mentioned above is impressing me. Another group is going  
similar steps in automotive. Even yet
closed and membership is propably very expensive, But there is  
movement in how to develop technical products.

Lothar

-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a  
future GTA03,

I have also been thinking for a while in exactly the same direction.  
Making the development of the GTA03 a community activity. Supported  
and sponsored by individuals and companies who are interested in the  
results.

On one hand HW development needs a clear and close communication  
between people. On the other hand it needs a large number of  
supporters who keep their fingers out until they are asked. But  
synchronizing activities is much more difficult than with SW (using  
SVN or GIT).

What we IMHO therefore need is:

* a core team that works (at least semi-)professionally on it. I think  
the community is large enough to provide enough members with all  
expertise that is required (from mechanics over battery to RF etc.).
* a clear milestone plan as in every successful hardware development  
project
* a specification freeze at some point in the milestone plan
* openness to ask for help into the community to judge between several  
similar technical solutions for the same requirement
* funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a community  
funds or society or association or however the legal form has to be  
choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for students and  
go upwards for individuals and companies. And special services (e.g.  
managing the production of 100 customized units) could even provide  
more funding for the organization.

A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a  
community should take a look at:

http://www.amsat.org/

Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50 satellites  
in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than building an  
open smartphone.

Nikolaus


Am 05.04.2009 um 19:39 schrieb Lothar Behrens:


 Am 05.04.2009 um 18:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:

 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw
 development
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.

 I may read his post...


 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in
 Eagle, and
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other
 half is a
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys,
 the RF
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.

 It is indeed difficult. But otoh are many hw projects (http://opencores.org/
  or http://opencollector.org/ for sample),
 or at least hw related.


 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some
 layout task.
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in
 mind when
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of  
 layouters.


 I don't speak about outsourcing. I have made similar experiences with
 outsourcing:

 An EE project (motor control) should be outsourced, but the schematics
 were sent by faximile!
 The result was about writing an application to compare the netlists to
 compare the then distinct
 projects (different wire names and the like).

 So don't split any EE project or work with different versions without
 a CVS or SVN!

 But giving development boards or mobile phone development kits would
 be an option to
 broaden the idea behind open mobile phone. Say, a GSM kit could be
 used for the carPC hobby
 engineer. And there are really GSM modules sold by other companies. 
 (http://www.gsm-modem.de/
 )

 Then you have the control about your pcb design, but propably broaden
 your product palette.

 Not all developers need a complete telephone. But you could indeed get
 more value if the
 'components' of a mobile device also spread the globe - as a
 development kit or separately.

 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by
 selling
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help
 EE guys in
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for
 production
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis
 with
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the
 guy
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You
 can't patch
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw
 POV on
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen
 proto PCB
 done by anonymous community guys, without checking each and every
 trace and
 footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it
 inhouse
 from scratch.

 I don't mean that you grab the prototypes blindly for your use. But
 didn't you think, the comunity
 will also help in hardware aspects?

 Maybe the devkit could be coubled with a contest, who develops the
 best mod or addon. Or as an early preview
 for developers of software (the display 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 05.04.2009 um 21:00 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

 Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a  
 future GTA03,


[snip]

 * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a  
 community funds or society or association or however the legal form  
 has to be choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for  
 students and go upwards for individuals and companies. And special  
 services (e.g. managing the production of 100 customized units)  
 could even provide more funding for the organization.

And indeed we fund with the purchase of our phones. I mostly played  
with the navit package and done some bug reports. It's a hobby and  
thus it would
also move someone to fund in comunity sub projects when there is a way  
of hand on soldering and the like.

Also I played with the CAD files, wrote a script to convert some of  
them, that costs me about 1 day. It is a fund. The idea behind that  
was to make the CAD
files available in more formats and thus propably push private case  
mods.



 A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a  
 community should take a look at:

   http://www.amsat.org/

 Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50  
 satellites in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than  
 building an open smartphone.

Hmm. Then open source projects were not the first movements in the  
spirit of openess :-)

This is a great sample.

Here are some links about mobile equipment resellers:

TFT displays:
http://www.cartft.com/catalog/gl/111

USB display
http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/1057

carPC site (german):
http://www.car-pc.info/

A link to books about building car PC's (linked in the carPC site):
http://www.amazon.de/dp/0071468269?tag=cartftcom-21camp=1410creative=6378linkCode=as1creativeASIN=0071468269adid=044B8W2G03ATQDZ5ECZK;

This is unrelated but there are always people who build their own :-)

Lothar

-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen









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Interesting gadget for navit application and a feature enabler (was Re: Slashdotted)

2009-04-05 Thread Lothar Behrens
Just to mention here, also found at the car TFT site (GNS FM9 TMC  
receiver (miniUSB) *neu*):

http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/1016

This may be interesting for the navit project.

Lothar

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Good comments All.

Let me inline some answers/explanations.

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 
 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)
 
 What is a open phone?
 
 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?
 
 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?
 
 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

  At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
  1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
  2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)

  And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old 
kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt 
microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? 
because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK 
companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive 
technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on 
his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the 
software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The 
history of this is covered in this book:

Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three 
Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress 
Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers 
the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the 
acquisition of RenderMorphics.

The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is 
comparatively low.

Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul 
Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of 
the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.


So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that 
entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
easier than entering the hardware business.

This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, 
but one level up from that: designing
hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.

I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
hit the compile button?

We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's
easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide.
gcc GTA02v5  doesnt work what that means is this. There are perhaps
some unconcious attitudes people have carried over from the software 
world that will jump up and bite them when they start to work in the 
hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware  requires
a waterfall design process, at least in my experience. In the software 
world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects
that followed a strict waterfall model.
In a waterfall model you start with requirements. And you don't write
a line of code until requirements are 100% done and complete and signed
off. Once the requirements are done. They don't change. Then, and only
then you get to do design. You are still not writing any code. when
design is 100% complete, you 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes
Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like!
Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside!

Keep it up!

- Gunnar

Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.
 
 Let me inline some answers/explanations.
 
 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.

 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)

 What is a open phone?

 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?

 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.
 
   At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
   1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
   2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)
 
   And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old 
 kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt 
 microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? 
 because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
 business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK 
 companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
 and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
 and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
 to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
 So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
 and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
 manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive 
 technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on 
 his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
 aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the 
 software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The 
 history of this is covered in this book:
 
 Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three 
 Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress 
 Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers 
 the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the 
 acquisition of RenderMorphics.
 
 The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
 to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is 
 comparatively low.
 
 Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul 
 Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
 what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
 EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of 
 the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
 for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
 The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
 are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
 are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.
 
 
 So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that 
 entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
 easier than entering the hardware business.
 
 This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
 point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
 characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
 hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, 
 but one level up from that: designing
 hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
 form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
 testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
 run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.
 
 I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
 you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
 You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
 hit the compile button?
 
 We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's
 easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide.
 gcc GTA02v5  doesnt work what that means is this. There are perhaps
 some unconcious attitudes people have carried over from the software 
 world that will jump up and bite them when they start to work in the 
 hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware  requires
 a waterfall design process, at least in my experience. In the software 
 world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects
 that followed a strict waterfall model.
 In a waterfall model you start with requirements. 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Dr. N

  We are thinking down similar paths. See my other other posts.

  I will check out the satilite site. My sense is, without even looking,
  that a fair number of people working on the project probably had some 
aerospace background and were well schooled in the process of 
requirements driven product design. I dont want to clog up community 
with this talk so I'm trying to get a new list set up.

Steve


Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a 
 future GTA03,
 
 I have also been thinking for a while in exactly the same direction. 
 Making the development of the GTA03 a community activity. Supported and 
 sponsored by individuals and companies who are interested in the results.
 
 On one hand HW development needs a clear and close communication between 
 people. On the other hand it needs a large number of supporters who keep 
 their fingers out until they are asked. But synchronizing activities is 
 much more difficult than with SW (using SVN or GIT).
 
 What we IMHO therefore need is:
 
 * a core team that works (at least semi-)professionally on it. I think 
 the community is large enough to provide enough members with all 
 expertise that is required (from mechanics over battery to RF etc.).
 * a clear milestone plan as in every successful hardware development 
 project
 * a specification freeze at some point in the milestone plan
 * openness to ask for help into the community to judge between several 
 similar technical solutions for the same requirement
 * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a community 
 funds or society or association or however the legal form has to be 
 choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for students and go 
 upwards for individuals and companies. And special services (e.g. 
 managing the production of 100 customized units) could even provide more 
 funding for the organization.
 
 A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a 
 community should take a look at:
 
 http://www.amsat.org/
 
 Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50 satellites 
 in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than building an open 
 smartphone.
 
 Nikolaus
 
 
 Am 05.04.2009 um 19:39 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 

 Am 05.04.2009 um 18:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:

 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw
 development
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.

 I may read his post...


 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in
 Eagle, and
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other
 half is a
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys,
 the RF
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.

 It is indeed difficult. But otoh are many hw projects 
 (http://opencores.org/
  or http://opencollector.org/ for sample),
 or at least hw related.


 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some
 layout task.
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in
 mind when
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.


 I don't speak about outsourcing. I have made similar experiences with
 outsourcing:

 An EE project (motor control) should be outsourced, but the schematics
 were sent by faximile!
 The result was about writing an application to compare the netlists to
 compare the then distinct
 projects (different wire names and the like).

 So don't split any EE project or work with different versions without
 a CVS or SVN!

 But giving development boards or mobile phone development kits would
 be an option to
 broaden the idea behind open mobile phone. Say, a GSM kit could be
 used for the carPC hobby
 engineer. And there are really GSM modules sold by other companies. 
 (http://www.gsm-modem.de/
 )

 Then you have the control about your pcb design, but propably broaden
 your product palette.

 Not all developers need a complete telephone. But you could indeed get
 more value if the
 'components' of a mobile device also spread the globe - as a
 development kit or separately.

 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by
 selling
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help
 EE guys in
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for
 production
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis
 with
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the
 guy
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You
 can't patch
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw
 POV on
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen
 proto PCB
 done 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Michele Renda
On 05/04/2009 23:21, Steve Mosher wrote:
   The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in
 letting idiots vote. You dont want me voting on your layout and
 convincing everyone with my superb rhetoric that your 8 layer design
 can be accomplished in 2 layers.. you get my drift. The community will
 have to have SME ( subject matter experts) They will have to have some
 undemocratic powers. my view at least.

Hello Steve

Yes, I think you took the point.
I think, if there will be an open development, I would be better if 
there will be a meritocracy vote.
Example: if there is to discuss about use glamo chip or not, I think 
is not a good idea to have all the community speaking about the xglamo, 
where 95% of the person speaking neither know the low level implication 
to use a chip in place of another (and it is normal, because not all 
people have this kind of knoledge).
I am one of these idiots.

What according me missed in openmoko was a community. Or better: there 
are a lot of person in OpenMoko community. What we missed was a lead.
What we missed was an official voice from Openmoko. Often I took you 
email as official announcement of OM, as official face.
But you are not a community manager but only a maketing manager.

A community can't be democratic. Big projects as Linux, Ubuntu, Gnome, 
etc. have a community that is formed by person that don't stay all in 
the same level: there are leaders / there are developers / there are 
maintainers. And between them there is a knowledge and respect because 
they worked to get their position.

This bring people to be serious and to work collaborative. Without this 
there are only people telling only: The GSM module suck / The Wifi 
module suck / All OM suck.

Only with this a collaborative project can born, and to have success. In 
this case FIC have only to put the money when the project will be ready.
And remember that a open project may not be democratic. Usually the best 
one are never democratic.

Someone here a long time wrote here: Ubuntu community was not an casual 
thing. It was by design.
I would like to add: OpenMoko need something like this.

These are my 2 cents.
Michele Renda

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
as always, ditto, what joerg said. I could release the GTA03 design 
files, but there value is limited. If the design were verified (DVT)
and made ready for production (PVT) then the design files would only
have value for somebody who wanted to quickly produce PCBs. As a 
resource for a design mod ( take out edge and add in 3G) it's of limited
value since that new design will have different dimensions and will
therefore have knock-on effects on ME and  RFs.. see joergs comment 
about the systems intgration systems engineering task ( layout,EE,ME, 
and procuremnt)

Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw development 
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.
 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in Eagle, and 
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other half is a 
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys, the RF 
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.
 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some layout task. 
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in mind when 
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.
 
 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by selling 
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help EE guys in 
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for production 
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis with 
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the guy 
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You can't patch 
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on 
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen proto PCB 
 done by anonymous community guys, without checking each and every trace and 
 footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it inhouse 
 from scratch.
 Other companies tend to keep schematics closed to protect their IP, so we at 
 OM at least don't want to give asian cloners a kickstart without adding *any* 
 benefit for our customers.
 
 best regards
 jOERG
 
 
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Thanks Lothar.

   I think Dr N and I will have some fruitful discussions on how to 
start this. I'll contribute my time and experience as I am able to to 
get this
going.

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Am 05.04.2009 um 21:00 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:
 
 Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a  
 future GTA03,

 
 [snip]
 
 * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a  
 community funds or society or association or however the legal form  
 has to be choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for  
 students and go upwards for individuals and companies. And special  
 services (e.g. managing the production of 100 customized units)  
 could even provide more funding for the organization.
 
 And indeed we fund with the purchase of our phones. I mostly played  
 with the navit package and done some bug reports. It's a hobby and  
 thus it would
 also move someone to fund in comunity sub projects when there is a way  
 of hand on soldering and the like.
 
 Also I played with the CAD files, wrote a script to convert some of  
 them, that costs me about 1 day. It is a fund. The idea behind that  
 was to make the CAD
 files available in more formats and thus propably push private case  
 mods.
 

 A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a  
 community should take a look at:

  http://www.amsat.org/

 Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50  
 satellites in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than  
 building an open smartphone.
 
 Hmm. Then open source projects were not the first movements in the  
 spirit of openess :-)
 
 This is a great sample.
 
 Here are some links about mobile equipment resellers:
 
 TFT displays:
 http://www.cartft.com/catalog/gl/111
 
 USB display
 http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/1057
 
 carPC site (german):
 http://www.car-pc.info/
 
 A link to books about building car PC's (linked in the carPC site):
 http://www.amazon.de/dp/0071468269?tag=cartftcom-21camp=1410creative=6378linkCode=as1creativeASIN=0071468269adid=044B8W2G03ATQDZ5ECZK;
 
 This is unrelated but there are always people who build their own :-)
 
 Lothar
 
 -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
 Lothar Behrens
 Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
 73252 Lenningen
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my 
community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community 
inbox grow and grow. And I thought I rather open my cell phone bill 
than plow through 1800 community mails but in the end you pay your cell 
phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox 
empty every day, its a joy to read and respond.

Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote:
 Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like!
 Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside!
 
 Keep it up!
 
 - Gunnar
 
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.

 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.

 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)

 What is a open phone?

 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?

 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.
   At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
   1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
   2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)

   And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old 
 kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt 
 microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? 
 because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
 business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK 
 companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
 and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
 and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
 to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
 So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
 and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
 manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive 
 technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on 
 his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
 aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the 
 software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The 
 history of this is covered in this book:

 Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three 
 Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress 
 Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers 
 the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the 
 acquisition of RenderMorphics.

 The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
 to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is 
 comparatively low.

 Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul 
 Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
 what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
 EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of 
 the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
 for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
 The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
 are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
 are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.


 So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that 
 entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
 easier than entering the hardware business.

 This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
 point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
 characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
 hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, 
 but one level up from that: designing
 hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
 form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
 testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
 run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.

 I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
 you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
 You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
 hit the compile button?

 We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's
 easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide.
 gcc GTA02v5  doesnt work what that means is this. There are perhaps
 some unconcious attitudes 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Marcel
That's the point - I  was away from home the last week only and kinda shocked 
found the om-community and debian-user-german folders with 320 mails each 
when I came back which is nothing compared to your 1800 mails... :)

--
Marcel

Am Monday 06 April 2009 01:08:24 schrieb Steve Mosher:
 thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my
 community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community
 inbox grow and grow. And I thought I rather open my cell phone bill
 than plow through 1800 community mails but in the end you pay your cell
 phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox
 empty every day, its a joy to read and respond.

 Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote:
  Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like!
  Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside!
 
  Keep it up!
 
  - Gunnar
 
  Steve Mosher wrote:
  Good comments All.
 
  Let me inline some answers/explanations.
 
  Lothar Behrens wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
  useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 
  Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)
 
  What is a open phone?
 
  Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?
 
  If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any
  person, why don't we do the same for
  hardware?
 
  Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
  developed, but I virtually could
  develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money
  for a rent to let one of the
  team do outstanding tests.
 
At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)
 
And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old
  kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt
  microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why?
  because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
  business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
  1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK
  companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
  and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
  and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
  to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
  So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
  and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
  manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive
  technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on
  his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
  aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the
  software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The
  history of this is covered in this book:
 
  Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three
  Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress
  Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers
  the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the
  acquisition of RenderMorphics.
 
  The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
  to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is
  comparatively low.
 
  Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul
  Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
  what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
  EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of
  the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
  for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
  The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
  are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
  are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.
 
 
  So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that
  entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
  easier than entering the hardware business.
 
  This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
  point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
  characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
  hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course,
  but one level up from that: designing
  hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
  form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
  testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
  run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.
 
  I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
  you unit test them. Then 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Lothar Behrens

Am 05.04.2009 um 23:21 schrieb Steve Mosher:

 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.



Snip


 My education in 1987 till 1990, was electronics engineering. I do not
 any more practice in that area. So I stuck in some conflict
 not to start any electronics projects, because I have the glue the
 project will be a one man show and keep a hobby project. But
 if there would be a collerative project I could join, I propably
 would. And may it only getting more practice in laying out PCB boards
 whose schematics other developers have created.
 Ok.. here comes a question. What layout tools? are there open source
 layout tools ( one hopes) and if not then what tool do we pick?

I mentioned KICAD (http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DE:Main_Page 
).
It is capable to handle up to 16 layers, has a basic autorouter  
engine, but also could
use an external one I think.

It is multiplatform (Windows, Linux, Mac OS X and probably others).  
There is a 6 layer
PCB board as a sample that is a video grabber.

As a plus, it could display boards in 3D and supports wings 3D models  
to be used for
the parts.

Also the schematics is organized in scheets and subsheets, so one  
could divide a project
in sub projects. The scheets therefore could get connectors to enable  
inter scheet connections.
(In my words :-)

I think the same would be possible if we design PCB components with  
prelayouted stuff, but this
is only an idea with the component as is in mind - why should it not  
possible to couble a component
with a layout except the interconnection wires.

To pick up the colerative aspect of PCB design, I could ask the dev  
team, if it is possible to add
a color scheme to show the differences in layout to be a helper to  
spot differences between versions.


 Essentially, you are pitching the idea I'm going to try to get going.
 I'll make an announcement about it shortly, but my plate is pretty  
 full
 and I can only volunteer a couple hours a day to help organize and  
 guide it.

 If that would be possible, then it would be a real open phone :-)

 End of arsing around. Is there a potential to create a hardware
 development comunity?
  I think so. no harm in trying.

 To avoid that each individual will start its own variant we could
 using a vote system before any direction is done, say wich  
 formfactor is
 used, for sample.
  The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in
 letting idiots vote. You dont want me voting on your layout and
 convincing everyone with my superb rhetoric that your 8 layer design
 can be accomplished in 2 layers.. you get my drift. The community will
 have to have SME ( subject matter experts) They will have to have some
 undemocratic powers. my view at least.

My knowledge is a bit away (Eagle, HP UX DS ??), but I know, Ill do  
something wrong, if I used 8 layers
but these are 20% filled only each.

OTOH, some guides could be applied like this: This board is a  
candidate for two layers. Don't use more than 4.

I participated layouting in motor control circuits, backplanes for  
computer systems and also
computer systems (the Transputer processor).

I got more knowledge by often doing a review and do layouts in steps.  
First the power and block capacitors then
the group of data signals and then the remaining stuff.

Critical stuff is HF and that sould be a separate step. Keep versions.  
Also an assisting layout would be helpful, like this:
I do one signal I think how it should done, an you do the rest of this  
signals (bus).

That way you avoid the risk, someone forgots the capacity in the  
signals and do wire them in paralell, but shouldn't.
Also signal length is an issue, but that is an HF issue.

About the voting: When one makes his / her first try in layouting, the  
core team should not
spend much time on it. A layouter first should get points of trust,  
thus other layouter with
some more experience should / could review the work of less  
experienced layouters, but not vica versa.

I think, this funnel also will help in finding good layouters that may  
get payd later and is fair.

I know that a hobby electronics guy will have it harder to get points,  
but others with some background
and the willing to help is a help. The hobby electronics guy could  
learn from the more experienced.

Snip

The cost:

What I didn't know is the cost for, say, 20 phones. I know there is  
the cost for the
equipment and the staff at all, but compare prototype costs with that  
here:

http://www.eurocircuits.com/index.php/PCB-production-service-overview/PCB-proto-the-new-PCB-prototype-service-from-Eurocircuits.html
and
http://www.eurocircuits.com/index.php/Service-overview/Service-Overview.html



 Sean: This would propably help continue GTA3 development. The risk to
 produce it, would only invest some inspections of a new design
 and doing integration tests. And even this could be donated.

 I asked sean the same. We are going to set up a mailing 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
thats the funny thing about inboxes and bills. If you ignore them
they dont go away, they just get bigger. There's a bunch of jokes here I 
refuse to make.

Marcel wrote:
 That's the point - I  was away from home the last week only and kinda shocked 
 found the om-community and debian-user-german folders with 320 mails each 
 when I came back which is nothing compared to your 1800 mails... :)
 
 --
 Marcel
 
 Am Monday 06 April 2009 01:08:24 schrieb Steve Mosher:
 thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my
 community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community
 inbox grow and grow. And I thought I rather open my cell phone bill
 than plow through 1800 community mails but in the end you pay your cell
 phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox
 empty every day, its a joy to read and respond.

 Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote:
 Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like!
 Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside!

 Keep it up!

 - Gunnar

 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.

 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.

 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)

 What is a open phone?

 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?

 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.
   At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
   1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
   2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)

   And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old
 kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt
 microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why?
 because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
 business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK
 companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
 and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
 and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
 to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
 So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
 and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
 manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive
 technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on
 his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
 aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the
 software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The
 history of this is covered in this book:

 Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three
 Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress
 Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers
 the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the
 acquisition of RenderMorphics.

 The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
 to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is
 comparatively low.

 Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul
 Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
 what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
 EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of
 the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
 for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
 The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
 are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
 are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.


 So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that
 entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
 easier than entering the hardware business.

 This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
 point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
 characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
 hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course,
 but one level up from that: designing
 hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
 form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
 testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
 run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.

 I 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Anthony Clearn
Perhaps one of the positives which could be taken from this is that it allows a 
rethink. One question in my mind was why the need to produce GTA03 when GTA02 
was getting better? I hadn't time to follow GTA03 as like many people, I see, I 
have a fair few emails to read. I once heard someone say most businesses fail 
as they try to be perfect (something like the waterfall, I suppose). So could 
things move on with just a GTA02 (not forgetting GTA01, but concentrating on 
the latest product) or does the project really need 03 / plan B? I suppose 
having a camera, 3G, etc would have been good, but isn't the fact that the 
phone is open the big selling point? I know it is for me.


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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Marcel
Am Monday 06 April 2009 02:28:05 schrieb Anthony Clearn:
[...]
 but isn't the fact that the phone is open the big selling
 point? I know it is for me.

That's the selling point for us more-or-less nerds. But the average 
oh-the-iphone-has-so-nice-bling-bling-user cannot see the value an open phone 
has for us but sees that it has no camera. But he/she wants a camera, so the 
decision is done. This is of course simplistic and I love the iPhone on a 
different layer, too, but it's the way I mostly see it.

--
Marcel

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Well,

  sean announced the mailing list at openexpo. also talked about our 
long term view. I read through your other comments below. Thanks.
On the Proto boards. PCB is just one component of the cost of a EVT 
board. I know with the Voodoo II I spent at least 1000 per board to get 
a 2 day turn back in 1998 or so. The difficulty with a cell phone PCB,
and the GTA03 in particular, was the small number of houses who could 
actually build the PCB, laser drilled, the 6410 BGA required a very 
specialized PCB, cant recall all the details.. hey Im marketing.
Plus components for a short run tend to be very expensive. Granted I 
didnt go over all the costs with a fine tooth comb. (task belongs to 
engineering) In any case I think with something like Dr. N approach and 
the one rattling inside my head
we could probably get through EVT with a volunteer effort. let me see 
about the progress on getting the list set up.

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 
 Am 05.04.2009 um 23:21 schrieb Steve Mosher:
 
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.


 
 Snip
 

 My education in 1987 till 1990, was electronics engineering. I do not
 any more practice in that area. So I stuck in some conflict
 not to start any electronics projects, because I have the glue the
 project will be a one man show and keep a hobby project. But
 if there would be a collerative project I could join, I propably
 would. And may it only getting more practice in laying out PCB boards
 whose schematics other developers have created.
 Ok.. here comes a question. What layout tools? are there open source
 layout tools ( one hopes) and if not then what tool do we pick?
 
 I mentioned KICAD 
 (http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DE:Main_Page).
 It is capable to handle up to 16 layers, has a basic autorouter engine, 
 but also could
 use an external one I think.
 
 It is multiplatform (Windows, Linux, Mac OS X and probably others). 
 There is a 6 layer
 PCB board as a sample that is a video grabber.
 
 As a plus, it could display boards in 3D and supports wings 3D models to 
 be used for
 the parts.
 
 Also the schematics is organized in scheets and subsheets, so one could 
 divide a project
 in sub projects. The scheets therefore could get connectors to enable 
 inter scheet connections.
 (In my words :-)
 
 I think the same would be possible if we design PCB components with 
 prelayouted stuff, but this
 is only an idea with the component as is in mind - why should it not 
 possible to couble a component
 with a layout except the interconnection wires.
 
 To pick up the colerative aspect of PCB design, I could ask the dev 
 team, if it is possible to add
 a color scheme to show the differences in layout to be a helper to spot 
 differences between versions.
 

 Essentially, you are pitching the idea I'm going to try to get going.
 I'll make an announcement about it shortly, but my plate is pretty full
 and I can only volunteer a couple hours a day to help organize and 
 guide it.

 If that would be possible, then it would be a real open phone :-)

 End of arsing around. Is there a potential to create a hardware
 development comunity?
  I think so. no harm in trying.

 To avoid that each individual will start its own variant we could
 using a vote system before any direction is done, say wich formfactor is
 used, for sample.
  The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in
 letting idiots vote. You dont want me voting on your layout and
 convincing everyone with my superb rhetoric that your 8 layer design
 can be accomplished in 2 layers.. you get my drift. The community will
 have to have SME ( subject matter experts) They will have to have some
 undemocratic powers. my view at least.
 
 My knowledge is a bit away (Eagle, HP UX DS ??), but I know, Ill do 
 something wrong, if I used 8 layers
 but these are 20% filled only each.
 
 OTOH, some guides could be applied like this: This board is a candidate 
 for two layers. Don't use more than 4.
 
 I participated layouting in motor control circuits, backplanes for 
 computer systems and also
 computer systems (the Transputer processor).
 
 I got more knowledge by often doing a review and do layouts in steps. 
 First the power and block capacitors then
 the group of data signals and then the remaining stuff.
 
 Critical stuff is HF and that sould be a separate step. Keep versions. 
 Also an assisting layout would be helpful, like this:
 I do one signal I think how it should done, an you do the rest of this 
 signals (bus).
 
 That way you avoid the risk, someone forgots the capacity in the signals 
 and do wire them in paralell, but shouldn't.
 Also signal length is an issue, but that is an HF issue.
 
 About the voting: When one makes his / her first try in layouting, the 
 core team should not
 spend much time on it. A layouter first should get points of trust, thus 
 other layouter with
 some more experience should / could review the work of less experienced 
 layouters, 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Werner Almesberger
Steve Mosher wrote:
 hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware  requires
 a waterfall design process, at least in my experience. In the software 
 world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects
 that followed a strict waterfall model.

Hmm, I think one risk of having a heavy development process is
that everyone tries to cram all their pet ideas into the project
like there's no tomorrow. And yes, I have to plead guilty there
as well :-(

I think a useful compromise would be a rigid process from design
to prototype or product, but the ability to start such processes
in rapid succession.

A lot of problems in the GTA01/GTA02 design were only found after
they hit end-users. Instead of bickering for half a year about
buzz fixes, wouldn't it have been easier in the end if we had
just been able to start a new design, with the necessary changes,
but only them ?

This isn't of course something you just decide and it's done.
You have to design the company/organization around such an idea.
E.g., don't produce at a factory that could spit out a million of
units a week but that takes three months to get rolling.

 minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy?
 ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI.

From (painful) memory: Half a month of getting a straight answer
from the vendor whether the chip can do it, about two weeks of
figuring out how to best rearrange that whole software stack such
that the problem becomes solveable, a few days of implementation,
well above a month to find out why that perfect plan didn't work,
followed by a few more days of working around the silicon bugs
eventually discovered. Ah yes, and when it was done, it didn't get
used :-(

When assessing the complexity of a problem, we tend to see only
those few days of actual development, not those months of
unexpected consequences.

 The OM designs all used modules for GSM and modules for things like
 WIFI and BT as opposed to down designs or chips on PCBs. The diffculty
 is not in finding components or modules

Famous last words ;-) I'd humbly submit that it can be incredibly
painful to find certain components if you're not a really big
player. And sometimes, one has to use components that aren't even
designed for phones, which creates its own set of problems.

   The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in 
 letting idiots vote.

In Linux, we have the concept of benevolent dictators ;-)

Very nice and insightful post. Thanks !

- Werner

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Thanks Anthony.

For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
and find a way to involve the community more in its development.

inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments.
stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official
comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation
someone commented that our approach to open business was the most 
radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all
of us.

Seans video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxIfeature=PlayListp=96FB31DA6E4012DAindex=1

I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview.

Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press.


During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the 
Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those 
events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two 
major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market 
and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new 
open device.
The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market 
finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. 
After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never 
dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in 
additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their 
software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed 
the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of 
Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, 
and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop 
for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, 
over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in 
this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing 
compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; 
Open software.
At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us 
the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the 
past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll 
take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background 
behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things:
1. Our successes.
2. Our mistakes.
3. Our challenges
It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to 
assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first 
developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. 
Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and 
distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their 
own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as 
follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open 
multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we 
identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a 
tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We 
also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something 
that could be easily changed or patched.
Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the 
embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had 
to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were 
essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of 
FreeRunner; Development of a follow on phone, the GTA03; and development 
of project “B”. From a resources standpoint we could pick any two. Given 
the traction we see in the embedded space and given our passionate 
commitment to current FreeRunner owners and developers it was easy to 
pick that project. Nine months after launching FreeRunner with 
tremendous support from the community the product is coming into its own 
with a diverse set of distributions that run on it, from android to 
debian.  Then comes the choice between project “B” and the GTA03.
There were two paths:
A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03
B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and  launch project B.
We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these 
salient facts guided our decisions:
1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design.
2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping.
3. The resources required for GTA03 are 3X those required for Project B.
4. OM doesn’t have 3X resources

So, we picked plan B. Focus on supporting the FreeRunner and launching 
the more modest project, project B. That decision entailed putting GTA03 
on hold and rethinking how we do that product and that business in a 
better way: learning from our mistakes and building on our success. It 
also meant 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Werner Almesberger
Lothar Behrens wrote:
 I mentioned KICAD (http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DE:Main_Page 

KiCad is probably the Open Source EDA system that's closest to
being up to the task. But I still wonder if it can really do it.

Don't get me wrong. I use KiCad for everything I do privately
and I even contributed a few small features. But then I only do
2 layers, no ground planes, no impedance-matched lines, etc.

For an open development process, using a freely available EDA
system would of course be an incredible boost. I just wonder if
we would really have the resources to build the phone and the
EDA system that can do it in parallel.

- Werner

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Werner Almesberger
Marcel wrote:
 That's the selling point for us more-or-less nerds. But the average 
 oh-the-iphone-has-so-nice-bling-bling-user cannot see the value an open phone 
 has for us [...]

I think they see it, indirectly. If the openness attracts developers,
they build things. First they build things that excite only themselves
and their peers, i.e., other developers. But eventually, they build
things that also appeal to non-developers. And that's when the system
becomes interesting to the (wo)man on the street.

Eventually also non-developers thus make the connection that open
is good. They have to understand the underlying principles about as
much as anyone needs to understand differential equations to know
that a heavy object once released falls towards the ground.

Of course, that rarely stops us developers from trying to tell them
anyway, especially after a few drinks at a party ;-)

- Werner

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Kosa




Thanks fo that.

Just a recomendation. I don't know know if you yourself (hope that's
well written since 
english is not my first language) upload that video, but I think it
could be a good idea to 
rename it so it includes "openmoko" on the title. It wuld be easier to
find for those who
are not on the list, but have heard about OM.

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

Steve Mosher escribió:

  Thanks Anthony.

For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
and find a way to involve the community more in its development.

inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments.
stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official
comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation
someone commented that our approach to open business was the most 
radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all
of us.

Seans video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxIfeature=PlayListp=96FB31DA6E4012DAindex=1

I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview.

Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press.


During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the 
Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those 
events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two 
major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market 
and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new 
open device.
The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market 
finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. 
After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never 
dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in 
additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their 
software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed 
the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of 
Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, 
and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop 
for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, 
over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in 
this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing 
compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; 
Open software.
	At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us 
the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the 
past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll 
take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background 
behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things:
1. Our successes.
2. Our mistakes.
3. Our challenges
It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to 
assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first 
developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. 
Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and 
distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their 
own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as 
follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open 
multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we 
identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a 
tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We 
also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something 
that could be easily changed or patched.
Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the 
embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had 
to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were 
essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of 
FreeRunner; Development of a follow on phone, the GTA03; and development 
of project “B”. From a resources standpoint we could pick any two. Given 
the traction we see in the embedded space and given our passionate 
commitment to current FreeRunner owners and developers it was easy to 
pick that project. Nine months after launching FreeRunner with 
tremendous support from the community the product is coming into its own 
with a diverse set of distributions that run on it, from android to 
debian.  Then comes the choice between project “B” and the GTA03.
There were two paths:
A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03
B: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and  launch project B.
We will talk more about project B in the coming months, but these 
salient facts guided our decisions:
1. GTA03 was in constant flux as a design.
2. GTA03 schedule was consequently always slipping.
3. The 

Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-05 Thread Steve Mosher
Hi buddy!

Werner Almesberger wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware  requires
 a waterfall design process, at least in my experience. In the software 
 world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects
 that followed a strict waterfall model.
 
 Hmm, I think one risk of having a heavy development process is
 that everyone tries to cram all their pet ideas into the project
 like there's no tomorrow. And yes, I have to plead guilty there
 as well :-(
  Yes. This is all controlled by the requirements in a proper process
since the requirements specify a target BOM and launch date. The 
phenomena you refer to is called feature creep.
 
 I think a useful compromise would be a rigid process from design
 to prototype or product, but the ability to start such processes
 in rapid succession.
yes, ideally with multiple dev teams and a standardized archetecture
I've seen this work.
 
 A lot of problems in the GTA01/GTA02 design were only found after
 they hit end-users. Instead of bickering for half a year about
 buzz fixes, wouldn't it have been easier in the end if we had
 just been able to start a new design, with the necessary changes,
 but only them ?
Of course. I don't want to rehash particular decisions, but most
product shortcomings ( in all products) can be traced back to poor
requirements or badly expressed requirements.
 
 This isn't of course something you just decide and it's done.
 You have to design the company/organization around such an idea.
 E.g., don't produce at a factory that could spit out a million of
 units a week but that takes three months to get rolling.
 
 minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy?
 ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI.
 
 From (painful) memory: Half a month of getting a straight answer
 from the vendor whether the chip can do it, about two weeks of
 figuring out how to best rearrange that whole software stack such
 that the problem becomes solveable, a few days of implementation,
 well above a month to find out why that perfect plan didn't work,
 followed by a few more days of working around the silicon bugs
 eventually discovered. Ah yes, and when it was done, it didn't get
 used :-(
Sorry to bring up painful memories. To use another metaphor, lots of 
people thing of parts on a board as pieces of code you can just comment
out and recompile.
 
 When assessing the complexity of a problem, we tend to see only
 those few days of actual development, not those months of
 unexpected consequences.
yup..
 
 The OM designs all used modules for GSM and modules for things like
 WIFI and BT as opposed to down designs or chips on PCBs. The diffculty
 is not in finding components or modules
 
 Famous last words ;-) I'd humbly submit that it can be incredibly
 painful to find certain components if you're not a really big
 player. And sometimes, one has to use components that aren't even
 designed for phones, which creates its own set of problems.
  true.
 
   The voting approach will be discussed. Basically I dont believe in 
 letting idiots vote.
 
 In Linux, we have the concept of benevolent dictators ;-)
   I think we are back to that discussion we had in the cab about 
consensus and debate. I've softened my position somewhat.

 
 Very nice and insightful post. Thanks !
 
 - Werner

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Slashdotted

2009-04-04 Thread robert lazarski
http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240art_pos=2

Not pretty. As someone who has been lurking on this list for 1 1/2
years, patiently waiting to buy a phone but trying to avoid buzz fix
parties if I could help it, I suppose its not surprising. On the
positive side, I'll stick around to see what happens with plan b - if
that is there's anyone left to develop it and its not vapor. I like
the idea of Freerunner, just not its execution. I'd like to surprised
though and see a turn around. And yes, I'll probably buy one that
ships without hardware problems.

- R

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