Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
On Thursday 25 January 2007 16:16, Harald Welte wrote: > The Neo1973 is accessing NAND flash directly via a industry-standard > NAND flash interface, which is a special-purpose interface where you > serially shift in the address and parallel read back of the data. Yes you're right ! Pierre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
To complete the memory questions - and >128 MB RAM? Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?" Reply-To:
Salve Harald! Thank you for your answer - a litte more information like about the technical based flash size of 64MB would avoid some speculations... ;) On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote: > If there was a technical way how we could have put larger NAND flash in > the device, we would have done it. Unfortunately the S3C2410 controller > only supports 512byte page sized NAND, and all the large NAND chips have > larger page size. To complete this quetionary about memory, what's about more RAM? Is there a technical way to use more? (In case that someone need it) Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 09:10:11AM +0100, Pierre Hébert wrote: > Hi, > > On Wednesday 24 January 2007 01:47, Justyn Butler wrote: > > So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory > > stick, but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a > > little experience with surface mount hacking. > > You cannot simply replace chips like that. The S3C2410 used in the neo, > and other devices, is accessing RAM, internal flash and devices through > memory mapping, with a 32 bits address. No, I'm sorry, it isn't ;) Only NOR flash is addressed like ROM/RAM/EPROM The Neo1973 is accessing NAND flash directly via a industry-standard NAND flash interface, which is a special-purpose interface where you serially shift in the address and parallel read back of the data. This has about nothign in common with USB Flash drives, which have a dedicated microprocessor with firmware to make a NAND flash module appear as a storage device. If there was a technical way how we could have put larger NAND flash in the device, we would have done it. Unfortunately the S3C2410 controller only supports 512byte page sized NAND, and all the large NAND chips have larger page size. -- - Harald Welte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: sorry s/FPGA/BGA/g Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
Hi ! On Wednesday 24 January 2007 11:16, Robert Michel wrote: > > Once I get my hands on one of these babies the first thing I'm going > > to be doing is taking it to pieces, and I can pretty much guarantee > > once we see the flash chip we'll be able to find a compatible > > replacement. But surface mount soldering/desoldering is a sensitive > > process and takes practice, and you do not want to be practicing on > > your $350 phone. > > oh, I will :) I many years ago I upgraded my Palm Pilot to 8MB > and did some other practice - so soldering flash will be not easy, > but not inpossible. It's possible to train with the usb flash device. Sure it was a lot of fun to do these sort of things. I was myself really proud to upgrade my HP48G to 128M of memory, after having bought a similar component in a IC store. It was possible when pin spacing was 1/10 or even 1/20 inch, but know take a look at our actual devices : the components are so fine that it is not possible to do that by hand. > > So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory > > stick, but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a > > little experience with surface mount hacking. > > > > But I have a more important question: why do you want to do this? > > Why hacking? Because it is possible and it is fun :)) Yes it is fun (I love that too), but really is not possible to do that on the built-in flash. > > I don't > > see the 64MB as at all limiting when there's a microsd slot to hand, > > and 4GB microsd cards almost available to buy. > > Right, me too. But Seans statment that we shouldn't do expect to much > transfer speed from/to microSD gives anouther reason than "just for > fun". Speed depends more on the type of memory used, than the way it is access. In case of the s3c2410, the periphal bus transfer speed is beyond the current cards speed. So (fortunately or unfortunately) you will get rather similar performances between internal flash and "external" flash :-( (around several Mb/s max) regards, Pierre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
sorry s/FPGA/BGA/g Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
Salve Justyn! Justyn Butler schrieb am Mittwoch, den 24. Januar 2007 um 00:47h: > Firstly apologies if I've misunderstood what you're saying. :) When it' my failing... > But I think it > is: "can I use the flash chip from inside a USB memory stick to upgrade the > neo1973 flash?" yes > Once I get my hands on one of these babies the first thing I'm going to be > doing is taking it to pieces, and I can pretty much guarantee once we see > the flash chip we'll be able to find a compatible replacement. But surface > mount soldering/desoldering is a sensitive process and takes practice, and > you do not want to be practicing on your $350 phone. oh, I will :) I many years ago I upgraded my Palm Pilot to 8MB and did some other practice - so soldering flash will be not easy, but not inpossible. It's possible to train with the usb flash device. > So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory stick, > but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a little experience > with surface mount hacking. > > But I have a more important question: why do you want to do this? Why hacking? Because it is possible and it is fun :)) > I don't > see the 64MB as at all limiting when there's a microsd slot to hand, and 4GB > microsd cards almost available to buy. Right, me too. But Seans statment that we shouldn't do expect to much transfer speed from/to microSD gives anouther reason than "just for fun". And in every town is some specialist which will be able to solder you this flash perfectly - in case for people with no experiances, to much respect or in case that they overestimate their skills and got into trouble while soldering - as long you do not swith on the power, nothing (beside of the warranty) is lost. But the important point in which model/Package Type of the flash will be used for the Neo1973 - and I speculated that it will be SLC(Small Block) and maybe even FBGA. And I guess that USB flash memory devices did not use SLC(Small Block) - or maybe this will be in *very* small devices ;) > Lastly, what is meant by the comment about FPGAs? I kind of got the > impression that you're suggesting the main SoC is replaced with an FPGA, no, mean FBGA instead of FPGA - because there is also the name FPBGA it is a little bit confusing for me, when I didn't use this terms often. I should use BGA (Ball Grid Array) and should avoid using abbrevations. So I know that there are some (private) hardware hackers working even with BGAs - but when the flash is soldered as BGA it is unpossible for most of us. Sorry for the confusion, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
Hi, On Wednesday 24 January 2007 01:47, Justyn Butler wrote: > So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory > stick, but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a > little experience with surface mount hacking. You cannot simply replace chips like that. The S3C2410 used in the neo, and other devices, is accessing RAM, internal flash and devices through memory mapping, with a 32 bits address. It means that the memory layout is fixed by design, with well known adresses and sizes. Also keep in mind that the bootloader (and probably OS) is stored on the flash, so if you remove it, you will get some troubles to boot :-) The MMC/SD slot is accessed using another peripheral with a different management and a different protocol, explaining why you can access more space. Pierre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
Hi, Firstly apologies if I've misunderstood what you're saying. But I think it is: "can I use the flash chip from inside a USB memory stick to upgrade the neo1973 flash?" Once I get my hands on one of these babies the first thing I'm going to be doing is taking it to pieces, and I can pretty much guarantee once we see the flash chip we'll be able to find a compatible replacement. But surface mount soldering/desoldering is a sensitive process and takes practice, and you do not want to be practicing on your $350 phone. So my answer to your question is: perhaps not from your USB memory stick, but you will be able to upgrade the flash chip if you've a little experience with surface mount hacking. But I have a more important question: why do you want to do this? I don't see the 64MB as at all limiting when there's a microsd slot to hand, and 4GB microsd cards almost available to buy. Lastly, what is meant by the comment about FPGAs? I kind of got the impression that you're suggesting the main SoC is replaced with an FPGA, which is currently totally out of the question. Believe me, FPGAs use waaay too much power for that kind of use in a phone. I hope this is of some help. Justyn On 23/01/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Salve, Just some question and possible answer (I'm no expert): what will be the difference beween the 64MB NAND Flash memory of the Neo and 1GB NAND Flash inside a USB memory device I have bought for 12 Euro like: http://www.priz24.de/product_info.php?products_id=1970 ? So in case there will no nice surprice and the Neo1973 will be shipped with 1GB, will it be possible to hack it ourself to 1GB and have an advice like "buy this USB Flash memory"? I found no hack with buying an usb flash device for upgrading a phone, a NSLU2 or a MP3 player - only this: http://www.hackaday.com/2005/03/02/howto-nonviolent-ipod-shuffle-disassembly/ The link to samsung's pdf isn't working anymore On this page they have a Product Portfolio overview http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/NANDFlash/index.htm SLC(Small Block) 256,512Mbit and 1Gbit SLC(Large Block) 1-32Gbit Hmm 1GB SLC(Small Block) has 63 pins 8.5x15mm and 1GB SLC(Large Block) has 48 pins 12x17mm Beside the different Operating Voltage, do I guess right, that with 12x17mm = 204mm^2 and 8.5x15mm =127.5 size matters and it the flash chip is a Small Block - and 1GB would be the maximum for that design that samsung could offer? So that a hack could only upgrade to 128MB flash? And that Small Block with 1GBit are not normaly in USB flash devices and that this chips are much more expensive than 12 Euro? Ergo it would worth to hack it? Ah and when the flash will be FPGA like the SoC - there will be no memory hardware hacking for most of us... So when there will be no chance for us for hardware hacking the memory, maybe the restiction has a positive effect: 1. we will concentrate on software hacking 2. due the limitation we got a motivation to do this efficient :)) Does anybody knows more? Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Some thoughts: "1GB flash hack possible? Or why not shipping 1GB directly?"
Salve, Just some question and possible answer (I'm no expert): what will be the difference beween the 64MB NAND Flash memory of the Neo and 1GB NAND Flash inside a USB memory device I have bought for 12 Euro like: http://www.priz24.de/product_info.php?products_id=1970 ? So in case there will no nice surprice and the Neo1973 will be shipped with 1GB, will it be possible to hack it ourself to 1GB and have an advice like "buy this USB Flash memory"? I found no hack with buying an usb flash device for upgrading a phone, a NSLU2 or a MP3 player - only this: http://www.hackaday.com/2005/03/02/howto-nonviolent-ipod-shuffle-disassembly/ The link to samsung's pdf isn't working anymore On this page they have a Product Portfolio overview http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/NANDFlash/index.htm SLC(Small Block) 256,512Mbit and 1Gbit SLC(Large Block) 1-32Gbit Hmm 1GB SLC(Small Block) has 63 pins 8.5x15mm and 1GB SLC(Large Block) has 48 pins 12x17mm Beside the different Operating Voltage, do I guess right, that with 12x17mm = 204mm^2 and 8.5x15mm =127.5 size matters and it the flash chip is a Small Block - and 1GB would be the maximum for that design that samsung could offer? So that a hack could only upgrade to 128MB flash? And that Small Block with 1GBit are not normaly in USB flash devices and that this chips are much more expensive than 12 Euro? Ergo it would worth to hack it? Ah and when the flash will be FPGA like the SoC - there will be no memory hardware hacking for most of us... So when there will be no chance for us for hardware hacking the memory, maybe the restiction has a positive effect: 1. we will concentrate on software hacking 2. due the limitation we got a motivation to do this efficient :)) Does anybody knows more? Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
