Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:19:18 +0200 joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org wrote: In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for electronic circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are asking for: http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit- dominoes/ /j The bug device 2.0 from buglabs is modular too. (The kernel is a bit old though: 2.6.35) Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:24:51 +0200 Raphael Wimmer raphael.wim...@ifi.lmu.de wrote: * The concept assumes that all components use a common communication backplane. This is not feasible, as a variety of voltages and communication protocols are in use in a typical phone (I2C, SPI, UART, USB, various display protocols, etc.). Many components need very short connections to the CPU/GPU/whatever without crossing other PCB traces. It is not realistic to make this work with a generic communication backplane. Proper heat dissipation for CPU/GPU is another problem. Or to use big connectors...that have dedicated pins for all theses things...like with the bug device 2.0 from buglabs. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 15:00:07 -0400 Stefan Monnier monn...@iro.umontreal.ca wrote: And it would be bulkier and more expensive than a non-modular phone, of course. http://components.arrow.com/part/search/buglabs The main cost in doing that is the plastic of the modules. Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
Someone was talking about a modular phone, right? Have a look at this (spoiler: it's not a phone ;) yet) http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1123-this-could-be-the-biggest-advance-in-camera-design-for-a-decade Regards, d On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Kai Lüke kaitobiaslu...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, GTAx is allready more extensible than normal smartphones because of usb host mode. And any different fast data connector I think about might allow an attacker to get access to your system, like the hacks with firewire. I also think it would be nice to have modular phone, but this is a huge goal and seems to need serious research and many iterations of practise before you are happy with it. Regards, Kai ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin pas...@aeroteknic.com wrote: If technically feasible That's the problem. -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On 2013-10-05 11:06 AM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin pas...@aeroteknic.com wrote: If technically feasible That's the problem. What immediately jumps to my mind is the small number of pins for the modules, forcing everything to be based on serial interfaces. It's probably not realistic to be able to change a CPU module that way for example. Dicy for a camera module too. But for tons of other I/O applications, I think it's quite feasible. The guy behind this seems hesitant to bring it to Kickstarter. Maybe he's got VC plans instead. Maybe he has no plans... ! -Pascal ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On 10/05/2013 04:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin wrote: While I understand the needs/wants of open hardware, the average smartphone user really couldn't care less. That's the core of the problem, lack of a large user base. HOWEVER, what a *lot* people seem to be interested in, is an open architecture MODULAR smartphone that could be customized. You want a bigger battery ? A better GPS ? A better camera ? Audio/video inputs ? Discrete inputs ? Serial ports ? Ethernet ? Absolutely ! Close to 900,000 people have indicated current interest in making this happen. http://www.phonebloks.com/ Unfortunately, it seems the technical understanding of the people involved is limited. This is basically at the level of a 5-year-old trying to design a car. 'Ok - it needs wheels and doors and a ball-pit'. Without the knowledge of what the transmission or suspension is. There are many challenges to making modular systems. Let's consider a module - and not even go into specifics. Firstly - you need to make it a given size - or it won't fit into the phone. This means that either you make the modules large, and may waste space in them, or you make them small, and risk stuff not fitting. Secondly, you add costs. This starts at the connector(s) - fine pitch very dense connectors are expensive! Especially if they need to deal with RF - and fragile. Another cost is overcapacity - if you have a phone, you can design the power supply to be adequate. Overdesigning it to cope with upgrades costs money. Now we run into the issue of reliability - part of the reason modern phones are comparatively reliable is they have almost no connectors. Certainly none that require mating/unmating by the user. Now, you also need to pay for extra antistatic components on each end of the module interface, a case for the module, a place in the phone for the module to fit in, and mechanical support so it doesn't fall out. Then the issue of antennas arises. Can it be done - sure! Will it be twice the price, twice the weight, a quarter of the reliability - very likely. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for electronic circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are asking for: http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit- dominoes/ /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
Am 05.10.2013 um 17:06 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin pas...@aeroteknic.com wrote: If technically feasible That's the problem. ++ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
Am 05.10.2013 um 17:14 schrieb Pascal Gosselin: On 2013-10-05 11:06 AM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote: On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin pas...@aeroteknic.com wrote: If technically feasible That's the problem. What immediately jumps to my mind is the small number of pins for the modules, forcing everything to be based on serial interfaces. Look at what MIPI.org has defined since 10 years. Display, Camera, Modem are all serial interfaces to use less wires. But nobody (not Apple or Samsung or HTC or Motogoogle or Micronokiasoft) has done a modular device. It's probably not realistic to be able to change a CPU module that way for example. Dicy for a camera module too. But for tons of other I/O applications, I think it's quite feasible. The guy behind this seems hesitant to bring it to Kickstarter. Maybe he's got VC plans instead. Maybe he has no plans... ! I would assume that his plan is to get publicity for his person. Not for the project. Promise people infinite life or flying to the moon and they will follow... -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 17:04:24 +0200, Pascal Gosselin pas...@aeroteknic.com wrote: [...] If technically feasible, this project I believe stands the best chance of obtaining funding as the concept has wide appeal. Interesting long-term vision: maybe. Short-term replacement for GTA04: no. I posted this on the OpenPhoenux list recently: There are numerous threads on Reddit that explain very well why this is not feasible [1,2,many] The (imho) most important ones in short: * Mechanical modularity increases size and cost, makes it harder to create a beautiful phone, and is not in the manufacturer's commercial interests. Therefore, it would be hard to find companies/customers to build/buy this. * Many current components are highly integrated - SoCs, sensor ICs, Display/Touchscreen, etc. Making these modular would require development of many new components (and would increase size, cost, power consumption). * The concept assumes that all components use a common communication backplane. This is not feasible, as a variety of voltages and communication protocols are in use in a typical phone (I2C, SPI, UART, USB, various display protocols, etc.). Many components need very short connections to the CPU/GPU/whatever without crossing other PCB traces. It is not realistic to make this work with a generic communication backplane. Proper heat dissipation for CPU/GPU is another problem. In summary, while it is certainly feasible to build a modular phone (look at David Mellis' DIY cellphone [3]), doing so for current hardware would involve major engineering effort (== design and manufacture dozens of new chips) and would result in less stable, more expensive, and less beautiful phones requiring more power. Raphael [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/gadgets/comments/1m6y1q/that_phonebloks_things_annoyed_me_so_here_are_17/ [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1m4pmy/eli5_why_is_phonebloks_a_bad_idea/ [many] http://www.reddit.com/r/all/search?q=phonebloksrestrict_sr=on [3] http://hlt.media.mit.edu/?p=2182 -- Dipl.-Medieninf. Raphael Wimmer Wiss. Mitarbeiter / Research Assistant Doktorand / PhD student Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München E-Mail: raphael.wim...@ifi.lmu.de LFE Medieninformatik Skype: real_raphman Amalienstr. 17 / Raum 206WWW: http://www.medien.ifi.lmu.de 80333 MünchenTel:+49 (89) 2180-4659 Germany Fax:+49 (89) 2180-99-4659 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
Am 05.10.2013 um 17:19 schrieb joerg Reisenweber: In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for electronic circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are asking for: http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit- dominoes/ My father did own one - unfortunately I don't know where it is now. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
There are numerous threads on Reddit that explain very well why this is not feasible [1,2,many] This is bogus. It is feasible. Just not quite in the way those people ask for it. E.g. you wouldn't have just a CPU module, and instead you'd have a module that combines the CPU with many other things. So the whole phone would be made up of very few modules: a case, a screen, a battery, and one or two electronics modules. And it would be bulkier and more expensive than a non-modular phone, of course. I for one would be willing to pay twice as much for such a phone, even if it's twice as thick. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: The open hardware phone project that's had the most interest
Hi, GTAx is allready more extensible than normal smartphones because of usb host mode. And any different fast data connector I think about might allow an attacker to get access to your system, like the hacks with firewire. I also think it would be nice to have modular phone, but this is a huge goal and seems to need serious research and many iterations of practise before you are happy with it. Regards, Kai ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
