Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
Am Do 10. Juli 2008 schrieb Stroller: On 10 Jul 2008, at 07:17, Michael Kluge wrote: It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not aware of the other list up to now). Urg, if you must, for the present. IMO it's better if the correct list was simply addressed in the first place. I tend to set Xposted topics to [ignore], as they are impossible to follow on and just waste my time. Xposting is considered bad practice anyway /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On 12 Jul 2008, at 01:01, William Kenworthy wrote: ... Basicly I know it wont change anything, but it always helps when someone points out that your view of the universe isnt the same as everybody elses ... BillK * not going to reply to anymore on this topic as minds are fixed in cement [quoting order rearranged] Well, these comments apply to both sides of the argument, an argument which goes back decades - I certainly remember many posts on Usenet about this subject. The reason I'm going on about this is because I'd like to see a consensus. Sure, like any geek discussing a point, I think my view is the right and most logical one. I'd like to see people stop using the - community list for stuff that would be better posted on -device- owners. But if that's never going to happen we might as well let Sean get on with it delete -device-owners. There must be frikkin' thousands of people subscribed to -community, and we're hearing in these threads from only a handful of them. Please - if you have an opinion, speak up one way or the other. I promise I'll shut up about this if everyone disagrees with me, but if I don't hear from you I will start (or continue, rather) nagging people to post on the correct list. ... For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the reason for having so many lists That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who chooses to filter their lists differently. From my point of view you are looking at it back to front - you are forcing me to subscribe and manage multiple mailing lists that overlap just so I can get a coherent view of OM - why not have two lists as suggested [-dev and -user] based on broad categories We might as well have only ONE list, in that case, openmoko-everything. and get the users to filter them ... But how do the users achieve this? It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to filter a single list into two different mailboxes based on message content, whereas it is trivial for the user to filter *openmoko* into a single email mailbox. So if we're going to continue the you're forcing the burden upon me argument it is FAR LESS of a burden for those who want to use a single mailbox to filter on their local mail client (a one-off setup procedure) then it is for those who want different topics separated to suffer the clutter and mess of a single list (as this is a continuing, ongoing and otherwise insolvable inconvenience). Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
Please - if you have an opinion, speak up one way or the other. I see a use for both lists, as long as people use the right list. (I will probably also make mistakes, and I will be grateful if you redirect me to the right list) Device owners can be useful for a number of things, for example: surveys, requests for user feedback, testing of apps... I'm only subscribed to community and device owners and read all the rest on http://lists.openmoko.org (because I lack the programming skills to give useful replies in for example the kernel list). y On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Jul 2008, at 01:01, William Kenworthy wrote: ... Basicly I know it wont change anything, but it always helps when someone points out that your view of the universe isnt the same as everybody elses ... BillK * not going to reply to anymore on this topic as minds are fixed in cement [quoting order rearranged] Well, these comments apply to both sides of the argument, an argument which goes back decades - I certainly remember many posts on Usenet about this subject. The reason I'm going on about this is because I'd like to see a consensus. Sure, like any geek discussing a point, I think my view is the right and most logical one. I'd like to see people stop using the - community list for stuff that would be better posted on -device- owners. But if that's never going to happen we might as well let Sean get on with it delete -device-owners. There must be frikkin' thousands of people subscribed to -community, and we're hearing in these threads from only a handful of them. Please - if you have an opinion, speak up one way or the other. I promise I'll shut up about this if everyone disagrees with me, but if I don't hear from you I will start (or continue, rather) nagging people to post on the correct list. ... For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the reason for having so many lists That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who chooses to filter their lists differently. From my point of view you are looking at it back to front - you are forcing me to subscribe and manage multiple mailing lists that overlap just so I can get a coherent view of OM - why not have two lists as suggested [-dev and -user] based on broad categories We might as well have only ONE list, in that case, openmoko-everything. and get the users to filter them ... But how do the users achieve this? It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to filter a single list into two different mailboxes based on message content, whereas it is trivial for the user to filter *openmoko* into a single email mailbox. So if we're going to continue the you're forcing the burden upon me argument it is FAR LESS of a burden for those who want to use a single mailbox to filter on their local mail client (a one-off setup procedure) then it is for those who want different topics separated to suffer the clutter and mess of a single list (as this is a continuing, ongoing and otherwise insolvable inconvenience). Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On 11 Jul 2008, at 02:44, W.Kenworthy wrote:
On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 15:41 +0100, Stroller wrote:
Or to merge them?
Yikes! Please no!
Keep in mind that:
The more lists you have, the more fragmented the data is and the
harder
it is to both find relevant data (generally you have to be a member of
the list), and get participants to threads. The less likely mail goes
to the correct list, the less likely those who need to see it (vs
those who just want it) are likely to see it.
In making these remarks you don't address any of my comments
regarding the clutter of unwanted topics.
For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the
reason for having so many lists
That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who
chooses to filter their lists differently.
- so all I have is the annoyance of
managing the procmail filters ...
I don't use procmail, but with maildrop it is trivial to regex
anything Openmoko-related into a single folder.
I have recently started separateing the -device-owners -community
lists, but last week I was using:
if ( /^X-Beenthere: .*openmoko.org/ )
{
log ---
OpenMoko List
to ${MAILBOX}/.Geek.Linux.Lists.OpenMoko
}
and suddenly discovering that emails I am
interested in have been going to a list I wasnt aware of.
It's not that hard to make yourself aware of the other lists.
I don't wish to be aggressive with you - I'm just making a point -
but is it my fault if you're too lazy to check out the other lists
available?
Users should become aware of the other lists pretty quickly when it
is pointed out to them, hey, this is more suitable for -device-
owners, please post there.
Stroller.
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Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 16:01 +0100, Stroller wrote:
On 11 Jul 2008, at 02:44, W.Kenworthy wrote:
On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 15:41 +0100, Stroller wrote:
Or to merge them?
Yikes! Please no!
Keep in mind that:
The more lists you have, the more fragmented the data is and the
harder
it is to both find relevant data (generally you have to be a member of
the list), and get participants to threads. The less likely mail goes
to the correct list, the less likely those who need to see it (vs
those who just want it) are likely to see it.
In making these remarks you don't address any of my comments
regarding the clutter of unwanted topics.
I didnt think I was ...
Just making a point for my view - that list fragmentation is counter
productive, and the OM lists are a good demonstration of it.
For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the
reason for having so many lists
That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who
chooses to filter their lists differently.
From my point of view you are looking at it back to front - you are
forcing me to subscribe and manage multiple mailing lists that overlap
just so I can get a coherent view of OM - why not have two lists as
suggested based on broad categories and get the users to filter them ...
- so all I have is the annoyance of
managing the procmail filters ...
I don't use procmail, but with maildrop it is trivial to regex
anything Openmoko-related into a single folder.
I have recently started separateing the -device-owners -community
lists, but last week I was using:
if ( /^X-Beenthere: .*openmoko.org/ )
{
log ---
OpenMoko List
to ${MAILBOX}/.Geek.Linux.Lists.OpenMoko
}
and suddenly discovering that emails I am
interested in have been going to a list I wasnt aware of.
It's not that hard to make yourself aware of the other lists.
actually it is
I don't wish to be aggressive with you - I'm just making a point -
but is it my fault if you're too lazy to check out the other lists
available?
Users should become aware of the other lists pretty quickly when it
is pointed out to them, hey, this is more suitable for -device-
owners, please post there.
Stroller.
Isnt that my point - Users should become aware of the other lists
pretty quickly when it is pointed out to them
Basicly I know it wont change anything, but it always helps when someone
points out that your view of the universe isnt the same as everybody
elses ...
BillK
* not going to reply to anymore on this topic as minds are fixed in
cement
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which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
Further to the recent questions about our mailinglists thread, ISTM that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community list. As I see it you have a device in your hand and you want to hear from other users who have devices in their hands = device-owners, a list where owners of openmoko devices can share their experiences. http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Hmm. That would apply to all: * no quick fix for my GPS * my SIM does not work * gta02 won't charge threads as well? It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not aware of the other list up to now). Or to merge them? As more freerunners are beeing shipped the difference in #people subscribed to both lists should become rather small. I hope you're not offended by this suggestion, and I hope you get helpful replies. No. I already did :) Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
I also didn't know about these other list. and i'm not subscribed to it. but i think if all questions that belongs to a real problem with the device are placed to that list, there wouldn't be a reason to listen to this list here. and you could rename this list from community to fancy litle discussions of features that maybe will never exist (a little bit long so :) ) if i had a problem and look over the mailing lists i definitly would ask the community for help. so i think these mails where at the right place here. Q: what would be a community mailing list that doesn't talk about there existing freerunners? A: a list where i have to unsubscribe, because it's just flooding my inbox. btw : i haven't my FR jet, but as soon as i have one, i will be happy to look after the problem with the landscape X-coordinates. but i think it's solved until then. :) cu all Beni P.S.: to aggressiv? sorry for that Michael Kluge schrieb: Further to the recent questions about our mailinglists thread, ISTM that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community list. As I see it you have a device in your hand and you want to hear from other users who have devices in their hands = device-owners, a list where owners of openmoko devices can share their experiences. http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Hmm. That would apply to all: * no quick fix for my GPS * my SIM does not work * gta02 won't charge threads as well? It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not aware of the other list up to now). Or to merge them? As more freerunners are beeing shipped the difference in #people subscribed to both lists should become rather small. I hope you're not offended by this suggestion, and I hope you get helpful replies. No. I already did :) Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On 10 Jul 2008, at 07:17, Michael Kluge wrote: Further to the recent questions about our mailinglists thread, ISTM that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community list. As I see it you have a device in your hand and you want to hear from other users who have devices in their hands = device-owners, a list where owners of openmoko devices can share their experiences. http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Hmm. That would apply to all: * no quick fix for my GPS * my SIM does not work * gta02 won't charge threads as well? Yes. I think the device-owners list is ideal for these topics, whereas community is more appropriate for: * whose idea was the Glamo, anyway? * oh, noes! the GTK toolkit bitch thread. * I have this great idea for an app (which I'm unable to produce any code for at the present time). * Freedom of Openmoko other Open-Source Software stuff. I have only just become aware of the two lists myself and to avoid antagonising people I'm refraining from posting too frequently you should've posted to the other list. Unless there are objections I plan to point out the alternative list only once per day and only on fairly new threads, before they become too long. It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not aware of the other list up to now). Urg, if you must, for the present. IMO it's better if the correct list was simply addressed in the first place. Or to merge them? Yikes! Please no! If you read Sean Moss-Pultz's post Re: [Fwd: questions about our mailinglists] (9th July, 2008 04:02:36 BST) he has decided not to do this for the present. This is pending more discussion, but it also gives us users the chance to get our list-usage right. As more freerunners are beeing shipped the difference in #people subscribed to both lists should become rather small. I would disagree. There will always be people coming in saying: * can the Freerunner do X? * I have this great idea! * should I wait for the GTA12 revision? The nature of the Openmoko development process is that there will always be new models coming up in the future and discussion of them, which would clutter a list intended for user-to-user discussion of problems and trouble-shooting. One might imagine that in 6 months time [EMAIL PROTECTED] might ask, what features do you want on GTA06? - it might be right for him to illicit feedback from device-owners, but I would encourage him to request replies to -community. Otherwise the long threads of speculation will fill the list and cause discussions of problems (starting the X-server, transferring contacts by bluetooth c) to become overlooked. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On 10 Jul 2008, at 09:21, Benedikt Schindler wrote: I also didn't know about these other list. and i'm not subscribed to it. but i think if all questions that belongs to a real problem with the device are placed to that list, there wouldn't be a reason to listen to this list here. Well, that's up to you. and you could rename this list from community to fancy litle discussions of features that maybe will never exist (a little bit long so :) ) To be completely honest, I rather feel the same way about many of the discussions here. Not that that has prevented me from participating in them, of course. ;) I would like to see device-owners get far more use for genuine problems ( help fixing them) so that it's not cluttered with such silly discussions. Such silly discussions as I have a great idea! (that you've all heard 1000 times already), lets all bitch about the glamo / GTK toolkit / Freerunner production and this software is licensed under terms which aren't `free enough` are inevitable, and I would just prefer to see them in the right place. I will have a Freerunner of my own in a week or two, and I would like to be able to concentrate on a device-owners list filled with hands- on discussion (rather than the existing conjecture). if i had a problem and look over the mailing lists i definitly would ask the community for help. I would prefer to ask device-owners, rather than people who are subscribed merely because they may plan to buy a Freerunner v4 in the future. Q: what would be a community mailing list that doesn't talk about there existing freerunners? A: a list where i have to unsubscribe, because it's just flooding my inbox. I think there's a place for many of us to subscribe to both. Those who are owners may discuss also on community depending upon how much time we have this week. Community doesn't mean I don't have a device but perhaps you don't need a device to discuss this. If you have a current Freerunner you can say that that, and you can compare existing features, when replying to Openmoko's request for wish-list discussion. But you don't need one. If we have only a single list then such discussion will drown out the rapid response of have you tried the 2008-11-04 kernel?, yes, I get this in dmesg and so on. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 15:41 +0100, Stroller wrote: Or to merge them? Yikes! Please no! Keep in mind that: The more lists you have, the more fragmented the data is and the harder it is to both find relevant data (generally you have to be a member of the list), and get participants to threads. The less likely mail goes to the correct list, the less likely those who need to see it (vs those who just want it) are likely to see it. For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the reason for having so many lists - so all I have is the annoyance of managing the procmail filters and suddenly discovering that emails I am interested in have been going to a list I wasnt aware of. A dev and a user list are all thats needed for the open, public lists, with perhaps dev being readonly for users - the others are just making life harder. BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
