Sam Ruby wrote:
The ASF has supportted .forward files for e-mail for quite some time.
Would the mere act of putting a one line .forward file into your
~/public_html directory with your favorite URL be OK?
A bit more work for httpd than your ~name/public_html/community or some
such proposal,
Justin, if you would like to put forward a set of rules,
guidelines, and suggest an enforcement mechanism, I would be
inclined to endorse it if it would further consensus.
It occurs to me that if people want to guide the content of the ASF hosted
personal page, there could be a DTD, and the
ROUS wrote:
uniform education of (new) committers is one of the purposes of the
incubator
project. documenting these things for all, including existing committers,
is as well.
As a new committer, I not only appreciate that view, I want to know where to
find the info! :-)
--- Noel
you might want to include Maven/Jelly in the section on
bulding, which currently has only Ant.
I've invited Mavenites to contribute, I've not recieved anything.
Ask Dion Gillard specifically. He's doing a lot on documenting Maven.
Other topics for your list: What is GUMP (just an example,
Andrew,
Around HotJava, the browser application? I suspect relatively little.
Around the component? I know several projects that would love to see it
resurrected.
--- Noel
Andrew,
Hallalujah! I have been asking about a Wiki on and off for months, and was
told as recently as a week ago that there were security reasons for not yet
having one. Kudos for just getting this done!
I am not familar with the code of this particular Wiki engine. What would
it take to
We transfered all of our domains from NSI to BulkRegister, and we have been
very happy with BulkRegister, so far.
--- Noel
Andrew,
There is already some sort of e-mail notification capability built into the
Wiki, although there seems to be some question over its usefulness on the
UseMod wiki site. But that at least provides us with a starting point.
I've downloaded the source code, and will have a look see next
Andrew,
With respect to the proposal that Sun be approached to turn over HotJava to
the ASF, do you have a suitable person at Sun to fulfill your
ContactAtSun - We'll need a contact at Sun in order to make this happen
role? Is Sun aware of the interest?
--- Noel
-Original
My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail
lists.
But I have no idea on how difficult/feasible that is with the current
software.
How good a PERL coder are you? [Actually, Danny Angus had mentioned
I'd much prefer mailing list notifications over RSS feeds. These types of
notifications shouldn't be pull.
Is there an engine that can pull from RSS on one side, and e-mail on
another? [Something to add to the nice-to-have list for James]
--- Noel
Yeah its still on my radar Noel, but as you say, I have to bond with my
kids...
If I were you, I know where my priority would be. :-) Happy Holidays.
--- Noel
I'll bite ... what is Tapestry?
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 17:54
To: community@apache.org; Jakarta General List;
general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Tapestry incubation
no-connotation
I am interested in content quality. I would probably subscribe
to the 'wiki-changes' list, since that would push the content under
my nose instead of having me actively reading each changed page online.
Right, that has been my point about push model communication. But do you
really want to
Bah. Use SubWiki, check out the Wiki pages into a working copy, make all
your changes, then commit them. Regular commit email sends the full bunch
of
changes.
grin Does this mean that Subversion is coming soon to replace a CVS
repository near us?
Not that updating a Wiki that way is in the
Its too bad we don't have any decent perl programmers. I'm apparently
the master PERL programmer here. The rest of you are all talk.
I'm getting quite sick of your you're all talk attitude.
Chill the hell out.
damn. I was joking around. sheesh.
That was not at all clear from
For those of you who are humor-impaired, or not aware of the Perl Acme
meme, the Acme::* line of modules on CPAN are jokes.
Aha! :-) I knew there was a joke in there somewhere, but that little
tidbit does help to illuminate the punchline.
--- Noel
19:12
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: email notification done...sorta
Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[...]
I was going to reply that perhaps the choice of usemodwiki was a good
one as a turnkey thing, but perhaps not the best choice for the long
term due to the lack
Justin,
I don't particularly care which Wiki we use, so if one has benefits over the
other, great. But I would like to see the content migrated from usemodwiki
to Subwiki if that's what is going to be used. How viable is it to machine
migrate the content?
--- Noel
Yup. Python people *and* Subversion people. :)
Well *that* much I knew. :-) The association between Collab.Net and the
ASF isn't obscured.
I keep wondering if some of the tigris.org projects will migrate to the ASF.
There appears to be a lot in common, including people. ASF uses (or will
Jeff,
Unless I missed a discussion elsewhere (I'm only on community@ and
infrastructure@, as well as project lists), Andy appeared to be complaining
about (a) people asking for changes to the Wiki without contributing
patches, and (b) the current lack of consensus on how to integrate
push-model
Because wiki's tend to fill with content rapdily, once you
use them for a little while you are pretty much locked in.
Counterpoint?
Personally, I'm getting mileage out of UseModWiki, despite its issues. I
wouldn't want to have to move every page in the Wiki, but I could cut
paste the
Greg Stein wrote (technical details omitted):
*if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
data out of UseModWiki.
Sounds like your approach follows the truism that in the worst case any open
source code that can read its own data can be instrumented to become its own
Justin, Sander, and I just chatted on IRC.
This reminds me. Many of us recognize the benefits of instant messaging,
via whatever method. However, when I first started contributing to James,
one of the things that came out from one longer time Community member was a
great deal of ...
In my book Andy (Oliver, not Clark) is the master of Wiki...
Andy gave myself and Ben Hyde admin access. From what Andy is saying, his
plan is to give that to anyone (within reason) who asks. I don't
particularly have a care, other than that people ought to know that such
things as deleting
Costin,
Consensus or at least a majority :-)
I believe he was using the common dictionary definition, not refering to
unanimity.
[agregating blogs ( or subsets ) from the apache community]
is a very different and IMO more important issue.
Putting this information togheter and making it
The life of a dyslexic is full of surprises. That should have read
This is a bad-thing(tm)..
I had figured as much from the earlier part of the paragraph. :-)
I assume that as soon as we create per PMC Wiki those PMC would
discover that they have pride of craft in the content of that Wiki.
People can do the same with patches on mailing list; and seem less likely
to abuse that. Perhaps the simple validation (and display) of a valid
email address may do the trick.
You are concerned about abuse. I don't disagree, but the mailing lists are
also capable of being abused. I would not
Is there a uniform release policy for the ASF? For example, here are two
documents:
http://httpd.apache.org/dev/release.html
Technically, any one can make a release of the source code due to the
Apache Software License. However, only members of the Apache HTTP Server
Project (committers) to
a friend of the court brief for the Board vs. Wiki.
Board vs. Wiki? That's somewhat amusing in its timing, considering that the
Chairman of the Board, as a private individual not in an official capacity,
(a) is the author of SubWiki, (b) posted a message to community@ in support
for Wiki use
In the community@ archives you can find the vote on whether this list
should be open or closed.
WHAT archives? As I have commented on before, eyebrowse has none for
community@ (http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=108).
Are they elsewhere? If so, where?
--- Noel
We're not really trying to hide anything. What you might
be able to attribute to malice, attribute to, umm,
absentmindedness.
For the record, malice never occured to me as an option. I'd asked about
archives previously, without a response. So when the comment was ever so
casually made that
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
rg
Do you still need to do something to enable searching? Doesn't seem to be
available.
--- Noel
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional
What I mean here is -not- the ASF cultural thing of having things
validated by your peers; but the oversight of the type that the
ASF as a US incorperated is supposed to maintain.
specificaly of the type which gets us in real-live(tm) trouble;
warez, child-porn, list of license keys, etc.
Justin,
The wikidiffs@ list received 77 emails yesterday. That's a *lot* of
traffic for a small group to handle reliably. I certainly can't keep
up with that.
Understood. One problem is that changes aren't merged. I probably do a
half dozen minor Wiki updates before I finish with an edit.
I wonder how this ended up on wikidiffs@
Looks like
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TheStudentResearchPage was
something that Andy started. My guess is that Master Townhill e-mailed
wikidiffs because of Andy's comments on
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?WikiAdmin.
Oversight of content relating to a specific PMC should be the
repsonsibility
of said PMC.
That is one view. There may be others. I believe that there is interest in
having a consensus on policy first, and then a solution. Not too many
people have spoken up one way or another on that issue.
no idea what nagoya is but Steven has a pretty fat server behind
cocoondev
According to the machines page, Nagoya is a Sun E4500. I don't have any
more clue than that (would be curious to know the actual configuration), but
E4500s tend to be pretty powerful beasts.
--- Noel
Costin,
I see several differences between mailing list and Wiki content:
1. posting policy
If you manage your Wiki with Wiki pages in conversation mode, shouldn't you
want similar control over Wiki posting as e-mail posting?
2. representation
I do see wiki as a transcript of opinions
Dirk-Willem van Gulik:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
The three WikiAdmins are neither official nor representatives of a
proper
oversight body. The most logical group would be those who are
responsible
for the site module, and I don't believe that they want it.
Well - the PMC's could each
Now that it appears that a consensus is brewing, I'm finally posting this
message in public
---
There appears to be a consensus for a Wiki per-PMC approach until some other
Wiki technology might provide some other segmentation schema for oversight.
The purpose is to
: Saturday, February 01, 2003 16:46
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: Wiki - we have a problem :)
On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 02:10 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
a solution using the current Wiki code, I imagine that it would look
something like:
http://james.apache.org/wiki/
http
I hope we don't tear down the current one for a bit, make sure the PMC
owned ones are a functional replacement.
I understand your concern about data loss, and share it. See my comment
about starting the new ones as clones of the current one. And no need to
take down the old one (maybe make it
Thinking about it some more. I guess my concern is less about the data
and more about the people. I'm most concerned about pulling the rug
out from under people having fun before their a place they can move
their fun to.
I'm sure we can make the migration work. :-)
We wouldn't remove any
Are the *.apache.org sites ever scanned for broken links?
I noticed to day that Eric Raymond moved his personal web site from
tuxedo.org to catb.org, invalidating all links to tuxedo.org. See
http://hurkle.thyrsus.com/~esr, which says My site has moved to
http://www.catb.org/~esr/. Please fix
,
commons-* and found only 3 incorrect links.
In any event, I'm wondering about the systematic issue.
Do you think about a general link-checker installed on daedalus? Hmmm, is
this really needed? IMHO this should be the responsibility of the
content-producing group.
cheers,
Erik
Noel J. Bergman
setup,
a cron job could kick it off at the desired schedule.
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Erik Abele [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 15:35
To: community@apache.org
Subject: Re: Verifying links
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Erik,
You are most welcome
I can see cars in my driveway from some of the sat images. Spooky.
http://mapper.acme.com/?lat=35.708298long=-78.695515003scale=13theme=
Imagedot=Yes
ICBM, eh? Gulp.
http://mapper.acme.com/?lat=34.036864long=-80.963427scale=10theme=Imagew
idth=3height=2dot=Yes
Thank G-d for trees. :-)
Got a URL for one?
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 16:36
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: Where we are.. continued..
On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
http://mapper.acme.com/?lat
It may not be as much fun as a member map, but:
http://cvs.apache.org/~noel/sites/
The Jakarta, XML, DB and Avalon sites didn't properly generate the HTML
results, but there is some information in the text files. If there is
interest in this sort of site check, I'll try to get those working,
It will typically have import statements - something like:
import lgpl.sshlibrary.Thingy;
The import statement alone is sufficient to make the source code a
work based on the Library, which means we could distribute under the
terms of section 6. Those terms are viral and disallow
Certainly we need an official reading on
[http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/],
but Classpath is specifically licensed as GPL, the least compatible
open-source
license out there (not even a murkier LGPL).
The issues with GPL are well-known.
The Classpath author adds an addendum to allow
the issue be reconsidered and that it be re-opened to the public.
Obvious question: what has changed since you proposed that
community@apache.org be open back in October
(http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]ms
gNo=60)? I don't believe that you want your proposal to be viewed as
One of the Three Dangers of the Fire Swamp suggested:
if you want to change this to a proposal that we create a
*new* opt-in list with no restrictions on subscription, i
think that is a different matter.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- Noel
yes please! It'd be cool if something like this could run every week or
so, with summaries sent to the appropriate mailing list.
I'll run it weekly, but I am *not* subscribing to every mailing list. :-)
I'll post the files to my account, and a notice here.
Not sure why it failed to generate
Ken, can we get this on the Wiki page to protect
feeble-minded folks like me?
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Licensing
I had just finished doing that. I hope that I got them right.
--- Noel
-
To
One of the Three Dangers of the Fire Swamp suggested:
if you want to change this to a proposal that we create a
*new* opt-in list with no restrictions on subscription, i
think that is a different matter.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
No, please no
shrug I couldn't really care too much
as necessary.
-- Noel
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Nic Ferrier
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 4:44
To: Noel J. Bergman
Cc: Chris Burdess
Subject: Re: Classpath Licensing
Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Serge:
The Classpath
David,
I agree that there should be an e-mail. But it should be short, and consist
of little more than a reference to the web site. All of this information
should be available on the web site for review and update. As that content
is enhanced, e-mail can go out to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
There are clear instructions in the jakarta web site on how to handle
cvs through ssh ...
This sort of information is scattered across the *.apache.org sites. There
are also instructions for doing it at
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#general. Oddly there is a
separate section on
David,
Actually, when I get a lengthy e-mail, the last thing I want to do is read
it. I get enough of those, and they are likely to be shelved for when I
have time to deal with it. Sometime between now and when hell freezes over.
You want a response to your e-mail? Keep the scroll bars
Note: the essence of lazy consensus is that such actions
are immeditely rolled back if an issue is raised. I plan
to do exactly that.
I assume that you mean roll it back if an issue is raised, because obviously
you wouldn't have put it up if you had an objection. :-)
Which PMC is going to
all PMCs whose committers 'commit' to the repository should maintain
some oversight.
Infrastructure hasn't considered that a good model for the Wiki, and I don't
know that it would work any better for the repository. Someone needs to
take responsibility for the oversight.
I'm not suggesting
Conor,
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that Dion was refering to the
repository; rather he was commenting in response to my aside regarding Ant
and Maven:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 09:48:42PM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Noel Bergman writes:
I like the idea of a central repository. It
Jason,
I am the one who raised the issue about Ant and Maven. I have made the
observation before. Dion said that it was the Ant PMC that was in the way.
Greg Stein replied that the Ant charter could be changed if that was the
only issue. You jumped down Greg's throat about the Board taking
I think synergy is worth aiming for; reinventing the wheel (and mainting
it) in several places is propably not worth it in the long run.
That's my core philosophy of software development.
--- Noel
-
To unsubscribe,
My proposal is that Dion Gillard be asked to chair a repository committee.
He is the most familar with the issues, he works with a lot of the Java
technologies (Tomcat, Ant, Maven, James, Jetspeed, Struts, Turbine), and
although he is a Maven fan, he is agnostic in terms of ensuring that all
build
Leo,
As you have seen from some of our exchange and Costin's comments, there are
differing views on how to make use of the repository. Costin and I seem to
be of the option that a significant portion of the value of the repository
comes from sharing and centralizing the managment of
To expand, I think ultimately all that matters is that a project be
given the space it wants in an attempt to let it flourish. If the
Maven developers want to be left entirely alone why is that a concern?
Well, I'm not entirely sure how wanting to be left alone fits into an
atmosphere of
I thought the whole reason that Ant, Avalon, Cocoon, James et al moved top
level (out of Jakarta) was to get rid of top level umbrella PMCs so that
each project has its own PMC.
James,
As I understand it, the ASF is flattening the hierarchy, but I see top-level
projects established around
All I'm getting out of these discussions is that we're
capable of having long winded foodfights about turf.
This is an important problem that needs to get solved.
I wish that I were not starting to see this in a similar vein.
With respect to the repository, and classpaths, I have proposed
James,
Do we really need to have one big community? We've fostered a tight knit
community of maven developers, even if they are not so tight with other
parts of Apache.
No, I don't believe that we need to be all one community. There is
relatively little in common between, for example, Tomcat
Costin,
I agree with pretty much all of your particulars. To summarize, if I might:
- the ASF repository shall contain ASF jars, which don't
require oversight beyond the issuing PMC.
- the ASF repository should contain shared third party
jars for which the ASF has approved their use
you get an ok on [sharing and centralizing the managment
of ASF-acceptable third party jars] from the board and/or
the infrastructure team, and consensus across the community,
and I'll be absolutely 100% behind any such plan.
I can't see how it would be acceptable to anyone without all of
Just in case it would be of help to any other project(s), here is a link to
a message I posted earlier tonight to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The message mentions
the
automated process by which I updated every Java file in James to have the
full ASF License instead of a short form of the license that had
Not sure what you mean by lead ( do you propose a new PMC with Dion as
chair ? ). I'm +1 on Dion - however the layout and recommendations must be
decided by the normal apache community process
I meant as in chair, except that it wouldn't be a PMC, so I don't know if
the word chair would apply.
I just ran into this and found that might be worth injecting into the
jar repositories discussions.
http://nbbuild.netbeans.org/scrambler.html
Yes. That is what I was referring to when I mentioned click-through
licenses on netbeans.org, and Costin seems to be aware of it as well.
Dion,
The reason for this challenge is simple: to
demonstrate the the antipathy towards other
ASF efforts is damaging not only to the ASF,
but to Maven itself.
'antipathy' == 'A strong feeling of aversion or repugnance'.
However you want to label it, Jason's harshly phrased statements
Representing Jason as all Maven developers is a leap
beyond that I can't fathom.
As I said, I would expect that his comments weren't reflecting Maven's as a
group, and I know that they don't reflect yours.
It seems you are confusing your view of Jason, which you admit is limited
to a short
Jason,
Did anyone question that you've contributed an immeasurable amount of good?
I didn't.
What happened was that you responded negatively to an aside about why not to
put Ant and Maven under a single PMC. You talked about about not being
forced to collaborate, and pulled Gump, centipede, the
Nick,
As long as you want to start with first principles ...
If we have a layout and metadata we agree on - any tool could work.
If it is an ant task or a perl program or we just rsync - it doesn't
matter.
A somewhat standard layout is the important part.
a catalog.xml or whatever uptodate.
--
Nick Chalko
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 14:46
To: community@apache.org
Subject: RE: [proposal] daedalus jar repository (was: primary
distribution location)
Nick,
As long
Why not just protocol://repository-path/artifact-name, where artifact
name is as qualified as necessary, and is permanent? The project name,
sub-project relationships, versioning, etc., could all be handled by the
descriptor contents.
For the smart repository approach, if you want to add
Dion,
Is there a reason why a project's repository URI cannot be orthogonal to
whatever file system naming convention is adopted for downloadable parts? I
think that it has to be orthogonal if we are to federate with other
repositories without having to incorporate them by value. And it
Nick,
Two problems here
* The uri to find a needed jar.
* How to store the jar on the local filesystem
Does the URI (request) and descriptor (response) solution I proposed not
address those goals? That approach decoupled the naming systems.
--- Noel
i think that maybe organization / project would be better that
/project/[subproject/..].
More stable, less fragile. Still provides for qualified the naming space,
and is more in keeping with how we've been doing package naming.
I don't know if it needs to be a directory hierarchy, though.
Rich,
What is the rationale for the full text in each and every file?
ASF Board directive, as it was told to me. I wasn't privy to the decision
making process, but I assume that a determination was made that:
/* Copyright (C) The Apache Software Foundation. All rights reserved.
*
* This
i said that, and i was at least partly wrong. see the attached
message from roy.
Translation: I did the right thing for ASL v1.1, but only for policy
reasons?
--- Noel
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For
I *hate* bugzilla a lot.
What is the latest news on Scarab?
--- Noel
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FWIW, I presented a developer's overview of the Jakarta technologies that
was given at the Colorado Software Summit (www.softwaresummit.com) last
year. My Spanish is pretty poor these days, and my Portuguese is
non-existent, but I would be willing to share my presentation material with
someone,
http://www.freewebs.com/sepero/index.html
Of course LSD hurts OpenSource! People on LSD have impaired judgment and
are prone to flights of fancy, including shared utopian faux philosophies.
How could anyone argue that LSD doesn't hurt OpenSource?
Oh? *B*SD? Sorry! Nevermind.
---
I don't suppose anyone caught Stallman's response in the 3/24 issue of
Business Week, to the Linux article published on 3/3?
He said the same thing to Leo Laporte last Fall. In the same interview, he
added that songs could not be owned because they are creative acts like
programs, althought
Fixed. Someone beat me to it by a few minutes, and then I fixed up the
formatting. If you should see something like this again, the easy thing is
to view the most recent good version, click to edit, and then just save.
this opens the question of leaving the door open with no lock really
works
this opens the question of leaving the door open with no lock really
works in the long run or if we must live with wiki terrorists.
The wiki theory is that it is so easy to repair vandalism that the
immature
cretins basically lose interest in their juvenile activities. For more
The Cocoon Wiki has been the victim of exactly the same disgusting
defacement, approximately at the same moment I guess. *sigh*
The discussion of what to do about it is over on infrastructure. I'm fairly
sure from prior discussions that you are subscribed there, but just in case
...
Changes made to the Cocoon wiki are mailed to the cocoon-docs mailing
list, so inappropriate changes are spotted much more quickly. Perhaps
a similar setup could be adopted for the Apache wiki?
The ASF wiki has that ability, with two issues:
- The Wiki is ASF-wide, and almost no one wants to
Not to pick on Noel, but he is driven to get James to be the mail server
the ASF uses, working tirelessly to improve features and scalability.
If he was solely motivated by altruism, he might get tired and realize
the current mail system already handles Apache's needs.
LOL No, being capable
I don't know whether this was a symptom, a remedy, or a cause. Isn't the
fact these tags needed to be removed some telltale? I'm just wondering,
since you seem to advocate this as a good community pattern.
I fully admit that I suggested it after seeing what was going on in Avalon,
and no one
Moving and re-naming files in an ssh terminal session is not
crazily graphical nor easy enough for a 4 year old, but I bet
there are enough people in Apache who can do it without
sweating that it is, IMO, a poor excuse for throwing away
useful information.
Bah.
ObPlug
Use Subversion.
What would be helpful is if we can identify which tools
are currently used
The CVS command line over SSH, obviously. TortoiseCVS. WinCVS. We could
all survey our projects, or put up a Wiki page to collect what people are
actively using.
--- Noel
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